Crusader Weapon

[ClothedInVelvet]

Hey Guys,

First post; I've visited this forum so many times with questions that I figured I might as well dive in and ask some.

I'm building a Crusader, level 10, basically a beast.

Feats:
Combat Reflexes (Dex bonus +2)
Shorten Grip
Power Attack
Leadership
Stand Still

He's got a Glaive +1, Flaming, Shadowstrike, Vanishing, Vicious, Whirling. His pride and joy. 45,000gp (Magic Item Compendium enhancements mainly)

All the standard maneuvers, which will make him great. But my questions are more about his non-crusader attributes.

1) I'm using glaive instead of a chain so I can get whirling, because attacking everyone in a 10' radius (20' w/ enlarge person) is sick. Thoughts?
2) I'd like a weapon that is both piercing and slashing instead of just slashing. This would allow me to take impaling instead of vicious. Anyone know anything like that?
3) Leadership isn't commonly used. Is that because it's overpowered?
4) Any other thoughts?

[TroubleBrewing]

1) I'm using glaive instead of a chain so I can get whirling, because attacking everyone in a 10' radius (20' w/ enlarge person) is sick. Thoughts?

Whatever you think is cool, honestly. Go for it.




2) I'd like a weapon that is both piercing and slashing instead of just slashing. This would allow me to take impaling instead of vicious. Anyone know anything like that?

Halberd and scythe, just out of the PHB.



3) Leadership isn't commonly used. Is that because it's overpowered?

Yep.




4) Any other thoughts?

I'm not sure where I saw this rule, but I thought there was a rule against spending more than 1/2 your WBL on any one item at character creation. 10th level WBL is 49,000gp, and you've spent 45,000 just on this one weapon. Can anyone confirm this? I'm AFB at the moment.

[holywhippet]

I'm not sure where I saw this rule, but I thought there was a rule against spending more than 1/2 your WBL on any one item at character creation. 10th level WBL is 49,000gp, and you've spent 45,000 just on this one weapon. Can anyone confirm this? I'm AFB at the moment.

You would have seen it in the DMG, page 199. But it's not a rule, it's a guideline. The recommendation being that no item should be worth more than a quarter of your starting wealth.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Halberd and scythe, just out of the PHB.


I need a reach weapon to make use of my stand still feat to full effect. If I can stop enemies 10' away and then attack them there on the next turn, and never let them close and never let them leave, I basically win.



Yep.


That's too bad. Having a Wizard 5/Incantrix 3 to cover me as far as magic goes would have been nice. I'll think of something else to use.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

3) Leadership isn't commonly used. Is that because it's overpowered?

leadership feat is only good for small party of 1-3, its to just to fill in a spot in the party thats needed, followers are totally useless, and in larger groups leadership is really pointless.

[TroubleBrewing]

leadership feat is only good for small party of 1-3, its to just to fill in a spot in the party thats needed, followers are totally useless, and in larger groups leadership is really pointless.

That's your opinion, I'm assuming?

Because in practice, that turns out to be less true than "The moon and the sun are the same size!"

There's a reason that one of the first things the ToS banned was "Leadership shenanigans".

[Vulaas]

There's a reason that one of the first things the ToS banned was "Leadership shenanigans".

Part of that reason? Circle Magic gets nasty.

[Big Fau]

For the Whirling thing, have you considered just using a Scholar's Iron Heart Vest with Mithral Tornado? More expensive, but it ties the ability to your Recovery Mechanic to give you more uses/day.


As for the Leadership: It's kinda like getting Gestalt for free, which is why it's considered overpowered.

[Darrin]

I need a reach weapon to make use of my stand still feat to full effect. If I can stop enemies 10' away and then attack them there on the next turn, and never let them close and never let them leave, I basically win.


The Heavy Poleaxe (Complete Warrior p. 154) and Dwarven Warpike (Races of Stone p. 155) are both "Piercing or Slashing" reach weapons. You choose one or the other when attacking (footnote says "player's choice at time of attack")... you should be ok there, because while Whirling requires a slashing weapon for enchantment, it doesn't say you *have* to slash to use whirling.

A better choice might be the Partisan (Dungeon Compendium p. 111). Reach weapon, 2d4 damage, piercing or slashing, but it's martial, not exotic. Also, it has one of the best nicknames for a weapon EVAR: "Bohemian Ear Spoon".

[crazyhedgewizrd]

im mainly talking about cohorts, which the DM controlls and writes up. the only befits that leadership does is make them loyal to you.

[mootoall]

Be small, fight with a Gauntlet. [/joke]

[ClothedInVelvet]

For the Whirling thing, have you considered just using a Scholar's Iron Heart Vest with Mithral Tornado? More expensive, but it ties the ability to your Recovery Mechanic to give you more uses/day.

I did consider getting Mithril Tornado somehow. The problem is that the description says "adjacent foes within range." It seems like a RAW reading there doesn't let me use the reach function. If you disagree, I'd love to use it there.

The Partisan looks good, though the damage is a little bit light for a two-handed weapon.

I'm also considering using improved trip instead of stand still. This might mean I switch to spiked chain, but the exotic requirement (and finesse if I want to use it superbly) is tough to stomach.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I say get rid of Shorten grip, just use spiked armour or spiked gauntlets to threaten the spaces adjacent to you and get another feat, perhaps martial study: Mithril Tornado [(AFB so I can't check if it has pre-req maneuvers)

[Keld Denar]

I've said this in the past...if you are controlling (lockdown style with Combat Reflexes and Standstill), you really need a Spiked Chain or similar ranged/adjacent weapon. ESPECIALLY if you are getting enlarged. Spiked Gauntlets/Armor Spikes are light weapons, which means they don't benefit from Power Attack (main source of +dmg), and also only get +1x Str instead of +1.5x Str. Also, you run the cost of enchanting two weapons or suffering the drawbacks of not having all of your enchants when you are trying to get enough damage to make Standstill work.

If you are just being a DPS monkey, most of the time you can just 5' step away and keep full attacking, but if you are locking a foe down, you want to be as close as possible to them to keep them from moving out of your lockdown area. If you have a big 2 square donut around you where you can't effectively apply your Standstill feat, you aren't really doing your job.

Sure, its cheaper and saves you a feat, but IMO, its really not worth the loss of effectiveness.

[ClothedInVelvet]

I've said this in the past...if you are controlling (lockdown style with Combat Reflexes and Standstill), you really need a Spiked Chain or similar ranged/adjacent weapon. ESPECIALLY if you are getting enlarged. Spiked Gauntlets/Armor Spikes are light weapons, which means they don't benefit from Power Attack (main source of +dmg), and also only get +1x Str instead of +1.5x Str. Also, you run the cost of enchanting two weapons or suffering the drawbacks of not having all of your enchants when you are trying to get enough damage to make Standstill work.

If you are just being a DPS monkey, most of the time you can just 5' step away and keep full attacking, but if you are locking a foe down, you want to be as close as possible to them to keep them from moving out of your lockdown area. If you have a big 2 square donut around you where you can't effectively apply your Standstill feat, you aren't really doing your job.


Exactly. I want to be able to completely lockdown the field, potentially an enormous area. It seems like I can do that with Stand Still. The problem is that I want to do damage too, and I've become fixated on being able to attack everyone within range. Maybe that's not the best way to do it, I'm open to ideas.

Question on improved trip. Does this allow you to trip as an attack of opportunity? Otherwise, I'm not sure how it prevents someone moving around.

[Keld Denar]

Tripping is an attack action. You can take it any time you would take an attack action, such as as one of your attacks during a full attack, during a spring attack, or as an AoO. So yes, you can make a trip attack as a response to an AoO being provoked, and you don't even need Improved Trip to do it. All Imp Trip would give you is that you wouldn't provoke an AoO from doing it (not relevant since you are armed) and that you would get a follow up attack if you are successful. Oh, and a +4 bonus on your opposed check. Can't forget that.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Tripping is an attack action. You can take it any time you would take an attack action, such as as one of your attacks during a full attack, during a spring attack, or as an AoO. So yes, you can make a trip attack as a response to an AoO being provoked, and you don't even need Improved Trip to do it. All Imp Trip would give you is that you wouldn't provoke an AoO from doing it (not relevant since you are armed) and that you would get a follow up attack if you are successful. Oh, and a +4 bonus on your opposed check. Can't forget that.

While Keld speaks from raw experience rather than RAW character data inputs, when considering play this at lower levels without two flaws and the joys of humanity, could be difficult before you get the combo of EWP (Spiked chain or other wise)/Improved Trip/Power Attack/Standstill. Obviously, depending on desired goal, you gone something first. Being a Warblade/Crusader and gunning for Master of Nine when you could end up with the Idiot Crusader build by mistake means having to be extra careful where your bonus readied maneuvers go.

In the base set-up, from level one, you want to grab Combat Reflexes and Power Attack. Assuming flaws and at least 13 or 14 base INT on a higher end PB (14s in 4 or 5 each "important" stat on 28-32 PB is doable, if a little quirky in growth), then you also get Improved Trip online now or dip some barbarian totems for pounce and Improved Trip for its first two levels instead, using those first level feats for things like stone power (so you can tank levels ~1-3ish) and/or Power Attack and/or Stand Still. Really, you need X Attack and Standstill. That said, two extra feats for some rather minor flaws are sort of, well, overpowered, really.

Shorten Grip is sadly just a poor man's EWP (Spiked Chain), and as it is also explicitly a reach weapon/trip/disarm/nonreach weapon, there is a rather good reason why it is so insanely awesome. Sadly, few other Exotic weapons live up to that, well, out and out awesomeness.

[Keld Denar]

Shorten Grip, Short Haft, Improved Unarmed Strike...those are all sub par compared to EWP: Spiked Chain. They just don't compete. If you are gonna spend a feat, you might as well get the best. Unfortunately, a Spiked Chain as written is a dreadfully silly weapon, more apt to flay the wielder than the intended flayee. Sadly, other than the Spiked Chain, Scorpion Chain, Spinning Sword, Kusiri Gama, and Duom, there aren't any other weapons that do the close/far thing, which makes those weapons the top choices for pure control. Taking a page from the "refluff anything" thread, you could refluff a Spiked Chain similar to a Duom, with spikes on the upper handle that you can "punch" with at close range, or such.

If you don't want to spend the feat, your alternatives (Spiked Gauntlet, Armor Spikes, and Natural Attack (like a Slam) all leave you with the requirement of enchanting a second weapon you won't be using all the time (TWFings flaw), and all but the Natural Weapon leave you unable to Power Attack, which is bad, and even the Natural Attack only leaves you with 1:1 Power Attack which can be painful if you are trying to get a high save DC on Standstill.

Either way, you pay. You pay a feat to EWP, or you pay extra cash AND efficiency at your chosen role. EWP is the smaller price to pay here.

[Big Fau]

EWP: Spinning Sword works too.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Uncle, uncle, uncle. Spike chain it is.

Is there a way that I can make it a slashing weapon? I'd love to use the Whirling feature, but can't do that with a solely piercing weapon.

Power attack, combat reflexes, improved trip, EWP: spiked chain.

But I want to make use of my new massive reach by attacking everyone in it. Whirling doesn't work because it's not slashing, mithril tornado doesn't work because RAW says its only for adjacent enemies. Any other ideas?

[Keld Denar]

Drow Scorpion Chain, Ebberon Campaign Setting.

Its 1d6 Slashing 18-20 Exotic 2handed IIRC. You lose 1.5 base weapon damage compared to the Spiked Chain, but you switch to Slashing and gain 2extra point of crit threat range, which is thrice as nice.

Or the Spinning Sword, Secrets of Sarlona.

Its 1d8 Slashing 19-20 Exotic 1 handed (you can 2hand any 1handed weapon except the rapier). Its about the same damage a the spiked chain, but gains a point of crit threat and gives you the versatility of wielding it in one hand.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Spinning sword can't be 2 handed: "A spinning sword can't be wielded in two hands to apply 1-1/2 times a character's Strength bonus on damage rolls."

Sadly. It looked so good.

[Keld Denar]

Huh, I didn't notice that when I last read it. Maybe I'll remember it next time.

Anyway, my personal favorite among those is the Drow Scorpion Chain. High crit range is nice, especially with Imp Crit or a Keen weapon. Focus on manevuers that don't give straight bonus damage dice. Unfortunately, Crusader's don't get a lot of these...

[Big Fau]

Spinning sword can't be 2 handed: "A spinning sword can't be wielded in two hands to apply 1-1/2 times a character's Strength bonus on damage rolls."

Sadly. It looked so good.

You can still Power Attack with it and get the extra damage.

[ClothedInVelvet]

You can still Power Attack with it and get the extra damage.

Very good point.

Does anyone know of any way to add piercing to a slashing weapon? Can someone point me toward some sort of thorn spell that I could use? Or some sort of spikes that attach? There's got to be something!

[Big Fau]

Very good point.

Does anyone know of any way to add piercing to a slashing weapon? Can someone point me toward some sort of thorn spell that I could use? Or some sort of spikes that attach? There's got to be something!

Is there a real need for Piercing damage? Out of all forms of DR, it's the least common that isn't campaign-specific.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Is there a real need for Piercing damage? Out of all forms of DR, it's the least common that isn't campaign-specific.

It allows me to add the enhancement "Piercing" from the magic item compendium. That allows me to throw everything into Power Attack and make touch attacks.

But I want to preserve slashing to keep the "Whirling" enhancement.

And I want to keep threatening both 5' and 10' so I can control the battlefield.

And I want to make sure that I can do enough damage to be worthy anything.

And I want to be able to use improved trip.

And I want to have powers against lawful, chaotic, good, and evil.

Ok, the last one is a bit of a joke. And yes, I realize I'm being demanding.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It allows me to add the enhancement "Piercing" from the magic item compendium. That allows me to throw everything into Power Attack and make touch attacks.

But I want to preserve slashing to keep the "Whirling" enhancement.

And I want to keep threatening both 5' and 10' so I can control the battlefield.

And I want to make sure that I can do enough damage to be worthy anything.

And I want to be able to use improved trip.

And I want to have powers against lawful, chaotic, good, and evil.

Ok, the last one is a bit of a joke. And yes, I realize I'm being demanding.

I'm AFB, but I believe that the Spinning Sword and or Drow Spiked Chain is one of those silly "I'm X with this end but Y with this end! Also, no getting X in a Y round and vice versa!" So, you could make an argument that one end is a primary "weapon" attached to an extra "secondary." As such, the answer is either some Exotic Weapon Master to overcome these short comings (Basically, all non-Spiked Chains) or to instead focus solely on Strengths of X or Y, maybe covering for the random Z ability in the case of the Spiked Chain's horrible case.

As such, from what I recall off-hand, you grab moar trippan, moar power attackan, and then add on some flurrin' to that mean old mess of chain for the cliched "DEADLIEST WARRIOR's weapon's abilities!!!"

[ClothedInVelvet]

I'm AFB, but I believe that the Spinning Sword and or Drow Spiked Chain is one of those silly "I'm X with this end but Y with this end! Also, no getting X in a Y round and vice versa!" So, you could make an argument that one end is a primary "weapon" attached to an extra "secondary." As such, the answer is either some Exotic Weapon Master to overcome these short comings (Basically, all non-Spiked Chains) or to instead focus solely on Strengths of X or Y, maybe covering for the random Z ability in the case of the Spiked Chain's horrible case.

As such, from what I recall off-hand, you grab moar trippan, moar power attackan, and then add on some flurrin' to that mean old mess of chain for the cliched "DEADLIEST WARRIOR's weapon's abilities!!!"

I'm not sure I got all of that. But both the Drow scorpion chain and the spinning sword are solely slashing.

And I missed the rest of that.

[Big Fau]

It allows me to add the enhancement "Piercing" from the magic item compendium. That allows me to throw everything into Power Attack and make touch attacks.

Pick up Emerald Razor via a Diamond Mind item or Martial Study. Same effect, works with everything.

The enhancement you are talking about isn't that good. Your attack bonuses from being a Crusader will be high enough to make the Touch Attack irrelevant, and proper Power Attack optimization means you are using Shock Trooper (which is wonderful for a Crusader because you want them to hit you as much as they can).


All you really need are reroll effects so your Strikes never miss when you need them the most.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I'm not sure I got all of that. But both the Drow scorpion chain and the spinning sword are solely slashing.

And I missed the rest of that.

Mostly, the Drow Scorpion Chain has two separate ends, but it is not a normal "double weapon," but for some reason I thought one of those ends was piercing. Same goes for the Spinning sword. I want to say one of the later Monster Manuals has a relatively good exotic weapon with two separate heads, but that's not a reach weapon, sadly.

The main thing I was wondering is, since those types of weapons with two ends for attack aren't normal weapons, I was debating about whether or not each end could be able to have its own sets of enhancements or if it is just "one weapon" and you just get a +X Flaming whatever Drow Scorpion Chain rather than a possible +X/+Y Drow Scorpion Chain.