Looking for advice for dealing with a difficult group

[Scags]

First of all, since this is my first post on the forum, hi everyone! I'm posting here because I could really use some advice, and even though I haven't been lurking around the forums I'm a fan of the comic and it seems like the community here is experienced and helpful.

Sorry about the following wall of text, I just want to provide some context to the problems I'm having.


I don't have much experience playing or running RPGs, mostly because the people I play with can't ever decide what they want to do. When 4th edition first came out it was the summer after my best friend from high school had been introduced to RPGs by one of his college friends. He asked me and a few other people we knew if we wanted to try D&D and we all got excited for it and bought the books. We spent one night making characters and learning the basic rules, and were all ready to play the next time we met up.

Because my friend was the only one with any experience he decided he would DM for us. When we finally played for the first time, he hadn't bothered to do any preparation. Using a whiteboard that I had cut a grid into with a hobby knife (losing a chunk of one of my fingertips in the process) he sketched out random rooms that he made up as we went along. We spent a few hours in a dungeon we had no reason to be in, wandering from featureless room to featureless room fighting level 1 monsters pulled randomly from the Monster Manual. Oh, and we didn't even get any loot. Needless to say, with no plot, setting, or even a simple explanation for why our characters were working together as a group (Chaotic Evil Tiefling Paladin, Neutral Good Dwarf Cleric, Chaotic Stupid Half-Elf Wizard, if I recall correctly) our first session was a spectacular failure. In a way this wasn't that bad though, because now we knew what we were doing and could really try and have a session where we didn't have to look at the rulebook every other minute.

I volunteered to run the next session and decided I would really make a fresh start of it. I was determined to get a story going and to start developing our setting, so I went to work. I spent the week creating a detailed city complete with a map, all kinds of adventure hooks, and encounter ideas. I set everything up so I could use it flexibly depending on how the group decided to explore so they wouldn't feel railroaded. I read DM blogs online and really put in the extra effort to try and make something that would be fun and memorable. Something that would more than make up for our last attempt. Then everyone else decided they didn't want to play D&D again because it wasn't fun and was "too complicated".

This one bad experience turned out to be just the tip of the iceberg. I went through almost exactly this same scenario with game after game. For a few we even wound up making characters, creating a backstory, and then never playing. Finally one of my friends found a game called GHOST/ECHO. It's a free pdf, 2 pages long, with minimalist rules for running a quick game. The system itself is fine, the problem once again comes from the players.

Now that they had discovered a rules system that was sufficiently stripped down, the group suddenly wanted long and complex campaigns to go with it. Oh, and they also wanted to completely improvise everything on the spot, with no preparation beforehand. There were at least 6 "Campaigns" that lasted one or two sessions before someone, unsurprisingly, decided they wanted to try a new "Campaign". All of this with a framework that has no real room for character improvement and was designed for quick-play.

This past winter break I finally suggested to my friend that maybe the best thing to do would be to create our own homebrew rules system. He agreed, got excited for it, and of course flaked out. I didn't let that stop me though, I wound up developing the entire system alone. The system is vaguely based on 4e but I came up with almost all of the actual math and mechanics by myself. It's still in the testing phase, but everyone seems to really like it. At least when they aren't busy arguing with me over semantics.

The problem that's come up now, is that this endless cycle seems doomed to continue. We decided that we wanted to really get a continuous campaign going. I told the group that I wanted to DM this time, but my friend who still has the most "experience" from playing at college insisted on sharing the responsibility. He wanted to DM at first and switch off with me and for some reason I agreed to it. He spent the next few days telling me that he was doing a lot of preparation for our upcoming session. When everyone had arrived, our DM for the night informed us that he hadn't come up with anything so we played video games for half an hour while he tried to think something up. When we finally sat down to play he started off the night by having our characters emerge from a nameless forest into a nameless abandoned town and meet a nameless NPC who told us about a piece of the moon falling from the sky and suggested that we might want to explore the crash site (the moon thing makes sense in the context of our world). When I confronted him and asked him about the lack of a central plot his reply was, "Well the long term campaign goal is to reach the place where the thing landed, and we'll have adventures along the way."



Anyway, I know this post has gone on for way too long, so I'll get to the point. Right now, I'm looking at a group where everyone wants to be DM, but I'm the only one who wants to put any real effort into it. On top of that I'm the only one willing to schedule a regular time to play so we have to figure out who's available on a day by day basis. This is despite the fact that none of them are currently working or taking classes, and I'm taking an intensive 3 week summer session literature course WHILE I work as an intern for a web design company.

During our last session I came in with a full color dungeon map with notes on every single room, encounter tables, and a detailed plot driven story that was relevant to the characters they had created. Then one of them decided he wanted to run his GHOST/ECHO campaign he had been planning for months, and they decided they would rather do that. Oh and guess what? Even though he had been "planning it for months" he only had a vague concept of what he wanted to do, dropped our characters into an empty area with no plot hooks, and just told us to do whatever. We must have stopped for over 5 minutes on at least ten separate occasions while he tried to decide what would happen next.

Ugh, and I guess I got diverted from the point again, sorry about that, but really my question here is this:

What should I do?

I'm a writing major. I love reading fantasy and sci fi novels and dream about being an author myself some day, so the idea of interactive storytelling is incredibly attractive to me. I have a graph paper notebook filled with dungeon ideas and notes, and I've even made a lot of them into full color high resolution photoshop files. I built an entire rule system for these people from the ground up with no help. I developed the campaign setting and came up with original races, cultures, a history, and even wrote a couple of short stories set in the world to help establish the tone. I just don't know what I else I can do at this point.

Finally, for the sake of full disclosure, I feel like I have to mention that I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder. To put that in the simplest terms possible, it means that I have a lot of trouble making new friends and putting myself out there. Even the thought of finding a gaming group via the internet and going and introducing myself to a bunch of strangers makes me feel physically ill.

Well, in a way just writing this post was pretty cathartic, so even if nothing else comes of it at least there's that. Any advice that anyone can give me on getting my group to take things a little more seriously would be greatly appreciated. If I could just get one real session in with them I feel like I could finally get some closure on whether or not it's worth all the effort it takes to play RPGs with my friends. Even suggestions for trying to go out and find a new group would be great, though I don't know how well I'll be able to act on them.

Sorry again for the wall of text.

[Shadowknight12]

I've been in your exact same situation before. And I tried. Hard and for many years. I don't want to sound like a nay-sayer, but this is what it ultimately all led to: failure.

You will fail for as long as they continue to be this immature and irresponsible. That's a lesson I learnt the hard way. You are not the problem. The system is not the problem. There is nothing you can do in the face of immaturity. Only time and experience can cure them of that.

I'm sorry, but it'd be best if you found yourself other people to game with.

EDIT: I missed the part about the GAD. I'm terribly sorry to hear that. You are doomed to suffer one way or the other, then.

[Earthwalker]

WOW that’s a lot to read.
Ok some suggestions that I hope may help.
Firstly talk to the other players and tell them how you feel about all this. Tell them how you would like a regular game that you will run and that you want a long running campaign. Lay out what the campaign themes are and give a generaly ideaof what the players can expect.
Then see if they are excited about playing in the campaign. If not then there is no point trying to force them to play as it won’t help If they aren’t invested then it will fall short.
Try to make one night where you play your campaign and keep that night if you can. A regular gaming night is a good thing.
If people want to run other campaigns tell them you are more then willing to play in their games but on another night, because on x night you will still run your game.
I think my main point is try to talk to them and tell them ho you feel and how you want to run your game, and that you are happy to play in their games just you think it would be better having a routine and a regular night for your game.

[Eldan]

If you have trouble introducing yourself to people in person (I have that too, but probably not to your degree. Still), you could try online game. There are forum games, which are generally a poor replacement, but sitll fun, or chat room games (with or without headphones) which usually is pretty nice. Might that be more your thing? The treshold to introducing yourself online is usually a bit lower.

Because it seems, currently, that your group isn't going anywhere. I second having a long, serious talk with them, but if they aren't interested, you might want to look into alternate sources of enjoyment.

[Talesin]

I would definitely second what Earthwalker said. Talk to your group and make sure you ask plenty of questions to them about what they want/expect from a game as well as expressing your concern.

Talking to my group, which we did over a facebook message, firstly so people had plenty of time to think rather than just confront them in person and secondly because we all live miles away, I found out that the current campaign I was running, which they are all enjoying, was something that they wanted to stay away from in the future.

They said they didn't enjoy the diplomatic side, which the first chapter had a lot of, and preferred the problem solving and combat. They also expressed interest in running a campaign where they have to defend a city from invasion and I am going to focus my efforts towards that next instead of some extensive dungeon crawl. Of course there is still going to be some diplomacy in the game, but i've taken their thoughts on board and tried to stay away from the things they don't enjoy.

Hope this helps

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Protip: <boop> 'em. In your shoes, I'd have not stuck around after the first time they flaked.

[Thyrian]

It sounds like your group is treating role playing in a similar manner to an action video game, or a hidden mechanics adventure video game and see the position of DM as essentially God. They need to understand that this is not how D&D works, the DM is not God and a good DM either a) needs a crapload of experience to run it off the cup well or b) Extensive planning (you'll find good DM's seem to do a combination of the two but will never approach a table without at least one encounter and one enemy type put together.

Drive home the point of how much WORK it requires to be a DM and see who's still willing to take the position. If everyone else is playing properly the lack of preparation will be obvious.

Try to schedule a regular night once a fortnight if needed it just makes it so much easier. Also have it so at least 2 of the starting characters know each other before the game actually begins, tell them they have to plan their two characters together and have a few in-jokes (even something as brief as they're both from the palace and the goddamn soldiers always got to eat before us Mage's)

Lastly as for system complexity, a good system is gonna have a multitude of rules that turn new-comers to D&D off quickly if they're not the 'right' sort of people. The strategy I've been using on my own completely new group for the past 4 months (all new but me) is introducing them ONE rule at a time.

This is done via playing a game and simply excluding a rule for awhile or until they attempt something that would hit it. E.g. Last session I introduced the concept of a "Total Defense" action that improves armor, we've been playing without it for 4 months. This is a slow process but it allows for a fun game and for peeps who aren't willing to read to learn the rules while enjoying the game, it's the closest you can get to a hidden mechanics without doing the actual work for them.

Barring meeting new people or playing online this is the best you can do.

[Nachtritter]

Either dose their drinks with Ritalin or set their characters on fire. One of the two.

Or, you know, do the smart thing and find a better group to game with, because you aren't going to get diddley out of these guys. Their brains are all rotted from teh Xbawx.

[DabblerWizard]

.... EDIT: I missed the part about the GAD. I'm terribly sorry to hear that. You are doomed to suffer one way or the other, then.

:smallmad: DOOMED TO SUFFER!?!? ...

That's a ridiculous, inaccurate, and just purely hurtful statement Shadowknight. You're suggesting that his entire remaining existence will lead to nothing but misery. I call BS.

On behalf of the forum, Scags, I apologize. People around here are usually more ... enlightened than that.


On topic, it does sound like your players aren't committing to playing a system. Maybe they're too flaky. Maybe their interests keep changing at random.

The only thing I know for certain is that you're putting in a ton of effort, and no one is appreciating it. Props to you, for being into creating dungeons and stories and all that. I suggest, not expecting your friends to realize what all of that means to you, at this point.

You could certainly tell them, and then see what happens. See if they really sit down and appreciate your work. If not, you might have to wait awhile until they do.

[TriForce]

while i commend you for all the effort and goodwill you put into playing a tabletop rpg with your friends, i really do suggest you give up. you can try to tell them that its not a "winnable" game, its about telling a story together and having fun. but judging from what you told us a bout your group, im doubtful it will work. still, here are a few sugestions:

1: tell the "experienced" guy that playing final fantasy 1 does not qualify as experience. seriously, it seems that he is as clueless as the ones playing for the first time, he should not DM

2: altough making a system yourself shows you really want it to work, im thinking the system isnt the problem, and i think you might be better off convincing your group to try DnD again, if for no other reason then to make your job a bit easyer

3: i havent really heard about your style of playing a lot, only that you prepare well, but the players get fed up VERY fast. could you tell us more about that? in my experience, a good story with a bit of mystery helps more to keep your players interested then a fully mapped out city

[LrdoftheRngs]

:smallmad: DOOMED TO SUFFER!?!? ...

That's a ridiculous, inaccurate, and just purely hurtful statement Shadowknight. You're suggesting that his entire remaining existence will lead to nothing but misery. I call BS.


Although Shadowknight shouldn't have phrased it like that, I think that what he meant was that Scags will have to wait until this group gets more mature, loses their flakiness, and finally comes to accept the fact that, he is the best DM out of all of them. While I am sorry for Shadowknight's poor wording, I do not think that he meant that you are doomed to nothing but suffering.

As for the problem at hand, your best bet is to have a serious talk with your players about what it takes to be a good DM. You seem to be doing a fantastic job so far (in terms of preparation), and I'm sure everyone will eventually come to see that the plots and games you create are just plain more fun to play than a story with no overarching plot. If they don't, try running an episodic game. A few random, ragtag adventures tied together by one or two overarching story elements. For example, have a bunch of random dungeons, but have the final bosses be similarly "fluffed", like them all being part of a cult of Vecna or something. Another way to tie them together is to have a friendly plot-giving king that gives the PCs all their objectives. Now, the DM needs to have fun too, so this may not be the solution for you if you want a fluid, dynamic storyline. I know I would have trouble running one of these games, but the first campaign I ever played was one of these, and it was pretty darn fun.

Anyways, I hope that whatever you do works out for you and that you have fun.

[Shadowknight12]

:smallmad: DOOMED TO SUFFER!?!? ...

That's a ridiculous, inaccurate, and just purely hurtful statement Shadowknight. You're suggesting that his entire remaining existence will lead to nothing but misery. I call BS.

Wow, conclusion leaping much? If he stays with the group and does what he's always been doing, he will suffer. If he goes out to try and get a new group, by his own admission, he will suffer. If he tries to re-educate them, he will suffer. If he tries something new, giving himself hope that maybe this time will be different, he will suffer, and he will suffer horribly. Since I don't see another option, I say that, in this situation, he is doomed to suffer.

I suspect that you or someone close to you has been diagnosed with such a disorder, and you interpreted my comment as implying that they were doomed to suffer for the rest of their lives, which is why it provoked such a personal and incensed reaction in you. That conclusion, to which you leaped with skill that Olympians would envy, is not implied in my post in any way.

Thank you for taking what I said and turning into something incredibly offensive. I wasn't aware I needed your help to do that. Perhaps next time you'll send me a PM saying "Hey, I don't think what you said is very nice" or something like that, instead of leaping to take arms like an overreacting fanatic. But that would be expecting maturity, of course, and I shan't do that.

[Scags]

Wow, thanks for all the responses guys.

I think I might have been a bit vague about this before, but I've been close friends with the people in this group since I was a little kid. That's definitely a big part of why I've been willing to put in this much effort and time. Even if we wind up not playing an RPG together I'd still be spending time with them doing other things. The other reason I've been putting in the effort is that I actually think mapping out dungeons and planning cool encounters is incredibly fun. I'm sure it would be more fun to run them, but it's not like I'm working my butt off for no personal pleasure.

@ Earthwalker: For the game I'm currently attempting to run, we actually sat down as a group and came up with the setting and characters and everyone got really excited about it. I think a lot of the excitement was lost when my friend ran the first session and sort of put us on another pointless quest. Having a regular night for the game would be great, but I don't know how I can convince them to commit to it.

@ Talesin: I think a big problem we have is that we've never gotten that far into any one campaign. It's hard for people to know what they like when they haven't tried anything yet. :smallfrown:

@ Thyrian: One of the main problems I'm having is that my friends have somehow thoroughly convinced themselves being a good DM doesn't require experience or planning. I've tried to convince them that doing it right is going to involve a lot of work, but they all still want to DM and don't want to prepare. Introducing rules over time sounds good in theory, but since I have very little experience with actually running a game it might be a bit difficult.

@ TriForce: The experienced guy gets most of his experience from playing in games that his college friend DMs. His college friend has been playing D&D and several other RPGs for something like 10 years, so he's apparently experienced enough that he runs his campaigns with minimal prep. This of course doesn't carry over to my friend who has basically no experience of his own.

As for my play style, I haven't really had much of a chance to develop it. When I'm running the game I like to provide a strong goal, either short or long term, but let my players decide how they want to achieve it. I think a lot of the problems stem from the fact that we don't have a regular session, so when we can't get the group together for a while people lose focus. I've never actually had a situation where the players got frustrated with the campaign. Maybe I should focus more on the story and take away a little bit of their freedom? I feel like it's hard to make that decision without some more experience under my belt.

@ LrdoftheRngs: The idea of an episodic adventure actually might be a step in the right direction. Giving them a series of short term goals and having them achieve them might pull them in a bit more. I'm going to seriously think about that, thanks!


To anyone I didn't specifically respond to, it seems like there were a few main things that you mentioned.

The first is sitting down with the group and having a serious discussion about what we want to do. I think this is definitely a good idea, and I'm going to use a lot of the suggestions that all of you have given me for having the talk.

The next thing is getting a regularly scheduled game night going. I'd love to do this, but my friends are kind of unwilling to commit to it. I guess I can try to convince them that we're not going to be able to have a real campaign unless we can have a regular time, but honestly I think they will just flat out disagree with me.

The other general suggestion seems to be to just forget about gaming with this group. Typing up this post in response to everyone is actually sort of making me think this might be the only option. Even as I read over the great suggestions some of you have made I couldn't help but feel that, to some extent, I've tried a lot of similar things in the past that just didn't work. I might have to just try to find a new group, pop an ativan, and hope it works out.

Anyway, thanks for all your responses so far! When I had finished writing that post I looked back over it and wondered if anyone would actually bother reading the whole thing, and I'm really grateful to everyone that did.

EDIT:
@Shadowknight12 and DabblerWizard: I wasn't offended or hurt by the "suffer" statement, but I can see how it could have been interpreted badly. I don't disagree with Shadowknight12 - if I was in an easy situation I wouldn't feel like I needed to ask for advice.

Sorry, this turned into another wall of text didn't it?

[Seatbelt]

My advice is stop long campaigns entirely. It looks like at least part of the problem is attention span. offer to DM again, but try to design really short adventures. Like, for example...

*thinks*


*fails*


The party is in a small town or village, they meet a quest giver who tells them loots and fames and possibly a mcguffin are to be found over yonder. Design 3 combat encounters A "getting there" "got there" and "final boss" type format. This way you lot can play for 2, maybe three hours. They get a chance to enjoy some story, there is some combat. The adventure actually concludes, and then you can get back to Doing Something Else.

Maybe you keep setting adventures in the same area. Each time a new short little vignette but maybe different characters - you could even lift the setting into different rules systems if they're all high fantasy. Do it enough times and the players might start to be more interested in longer sessions and in paying attention to the world.

But as it sits I think trying to plan a long campaign is folly.

[Shadowknight12]

@Shadowknight12 and DabblerWizard: I wasn't offended or hurt by the "suffer" statement, but I can see how it could have been interpreted badly. I don't disagree with Shadowknight12 - if I was in an easy situation I wouldn't feel like I needed to ask for advice.

Sorry, this turned into another wall of text didn't it?

If you were, I apologise. As I said above with unnecessary vitriol, it wasn't my intention to imply this.

The bit about "being friends with them since I was a little kid" rang especially true for me, which is why I dearly, dearly want to spare you the disappointment. I'm not saying that you absolutely cannot achieve what you're setting out to do. You may well succeed where I have failed. However, I honestly find it unlikely, which is why I tell you that the path that is likely to bring you the least amount of problems is to get a new group. I would advise you, of course, not to do this alone. It's always easier to have someone you can trust with you, to help you bridge the initial awkwardness and make sure you don't flake out and leave when anxiety starts reaching its peak.

[Honest Tiefling]

Maybe published adventures would help. If they see how much prep those recommend, they might see DMing takes a bit.

Maybe I missed something, but how do your friends react to the games your friend runs (The 'experienced one') versus your own? Which do they fondly remember?

And if all else fails, well. Is there a local gaming shop nearby that has RPG games? You did mention anxiety, so would contacting someone over e-mail and explaining your concerns help? I somehow imagine that this is a common occurrence. If they are a donkeymongler about your situation, well, the RPG group at that store is going to be made of fail.

I will also second the idea of bringing a friend along. Also, try to get into touch with your DM over e-mail and send an e-mail explaining your plans to them? Maybe if you feel more committed, you'll show up more. It is tough, and I still struggle with a different form of anxiety, but taking a chance will help you in the long run.

[DabblerWizard]

Shadowknight, I interpreted your "doomed to suffer" statement as referring to the OP's GAD. Considering the edited paragraph's layout, this makes sense. I did not conclude that your comment was a general summary of the whole scenario.

My reaction wasn't tempered, for which I apologize. I forgive your "maturity" remark.

However, my point still stands. Whether your statement referred to a summary or to a diagnosis, I found it hurtful, and it's simply inaccurate.

[Shadowknight12]

Shadowknight, I interpreted your "doomed to suffer" statement as referring to the OP's GAD. Considering the edited paragraph's layout, this makes sense. I did not conclude that your comment was a general summary of the whole scenario.

I could have chosen my words better, in that you're quite correct.


My reaction wasn't tempered, for which I apologize. I forgive your "maturity" remark.

Good, and I forgive you, so it looks like we're even.


However, my point still stands. Whether your statement referred to a summary or to a diagnosis, I found it hurtful, and it's simply inaccurate.

Hurtful? I will concede that it might well be interpreted as such. It was not my intention, however.

Inaccurate? Only time will tell. I hope that Scags comes back to let us know how everything went, so that perhaps we can offer moral support if necessary. Only then we'll know if I was inaccurate or not.

[Jornophelanthas]

@Scags:
If I read your post right, you have yet to actually DM a single game session for your friends (other than some character creation here and there). If you are serious about DM-ing for them, you have to hook them from the start.

You have failed so far in the past because you spent an entire meeting on character creation without actually playing (which is supposed to be the fun part). Whether this is your fault or not, nobody (not even you) has witnessed the execution of anything you've prepared.

If you're willing to try again, my advice is to pre-build player characters for your friends/players. That way, you can do the character creation for them without it taking up all the game time. Simply convince them to actually let you DM for once, and then immediately give them the character sheets. Allow them 15-30 minutes maximum to get acquainted with it, and to maybe (MAYBE) allow them to switch around some spells, feats or skills. Set an alarm clock or something, and when it goes off, you start playing.

Give them an adventure that does not include everything you see as a weakness in your "experienced" friend's stories, and try to wow them by involving their characters as much as possible.

Some things to avoid (specific to D&D 3.5):
- Alignments. Just don't bother with them yet, because inexperienced players tend to turn alignments into caricatures. Since you create the characters, you also have the freedom to exclude classes that are too alignment-dependent (e.g. the Paladin)
- Gods. Have the Cleric be a champion of Good or Neutrality rather than a specific deity. This puts less strain on the player having to roleplay this (including alignments - see previous point).
- Limitless choices for prepared casters. Do not give the arcane caster a Wizard, but rather a Sorcerer. Give the Cleric or Druid a very limited spell selection.
- Dungeon crawls at level 1. Instead, start them at level 2 or 3, since level 1 characters tend to die a lot because of their low hitpoints. Especially if they can't or just don't rest between encounters.
- Complicated combat tactics (such as feinting, tripping, grappling, or even fighting defensively). This can bog down encounters. Just let the players get accustomed with the basic combat rules first.

The point of these tips is to avoid complexity (including character creation), since this tends to either bore (e.g. "Yikes, there are so many rules") or distract your players (e.g. "Wow, I get to pick any two out of these fifty spells/feats/goodies?").
Instead, emphasize the story and the challenges you prepared, while also demonstrating that you're giving the players the ability to choose their own paths through these challenges. If they like this, they will be hungry for more by the time you finish. And that's when they're ready to start a real campaign with regular meetings (and their own characters).

This is not a guaranteed success story. Maybe your players like only the THOUGHT of a long-running story-driven roleplaying campaign, but not the actual commitment this requires. Maybe you aren't as good at executing a game session as at preparing one. Or maybe your group of friends just isn't suited for roleplaying as much as for other hobbies.
But maybe all they need is to experience the rush that is fantasy roleplaying in order to learn to appreciate it.

[Pisha]

I agree with Jornophelanthas. I'd also add a few things.

1) Stick with one system and one group of characters. The rules for D&D aren't overly complicated, but they'll seem so if you only play one game and then try something else. (Or play one game as a fighter and the next game as a wizard!) If you honestly don't like the D&D system, pick another one, but stick with it for a while. They - and you - will never become familiar with it otherwise.

2) Prepare several short, one-shot adventures ahead of time - something that can be completed in 2-3 hours. Preparing them in advance means that if your players decide they're in the mood to play now, you can just pull one out, hand out their character sheets, and go - which sounds like what they're wanting. Don't worry about working it into some grand, over-arching narrative - if your players later decide they like it enough to play an actual campaign instead of a series of episodes, you can retrofit them then. For now, keep it simple.

3) Tell them what you're doing. Explain that you want them to stick to these basic characters and the same system and setting for a while, so everyone can get a chance to get used to it. Reassure them that you can try different games and different characters later, but for right now, you want to get the hang of this one.

4) Reward them for thinking outside of the box. The dawning moment when rpg's become awesome is usually when people realize they AREN'T video games. You can talk to people about things other than the quest, and they'll talk back! You can go to places that aren't on the map! You can try absolutely ridiculous stunts that no one could have possibly predicted, and sometimes they'll actually work! Of course some players can take this too far, but for right now it sounds like your main problem is to get your players having fun in the first place. So if they try something that's not in the script, let 'em. Make it fun for them.

And again, maybe it won't work. Maybe they'll just decide that gaming really isn't for them. But that's probably the best way to help them ease into it and start to enjoy it.

An aside: I don't know much about GAD, so I don't know if this is relevant, but I'm a naturally shy and awkward person myself. The idea of introducing myself to new people used to terrify me. When I got home from college, I realized how much I missed the games I used to play. Forcing myself to pretend I wasn't scared and go looking for a new group really helped my new-friend-making confidence. Also, most gamers tend to be really accepting of new people, especially if they're wanting to get into the hobby. Not all; there's some jerks out there, I won't lie. But most. I totally understand that you want to game with your friends, but if it doesn't pan out and you still want to try gaming, there are friendly people in just about every city who would love to get you into a game.

[TriForce]

As for my play style, I haven't really had much of a chance to develop it. When I'm running the game I like to provide a strong goal, either short or long term, but let my players decide how they want to achieve it. I think a lot of the problems stem from the fact that we don't have a regular session, so when we can't get the group together for a while people lose focus. I've never actually had a situation where the players got frustrated with the campaign. Maybe I should focus more on the story and take away a little bit of their freedom? I feel like it's hard to make that decision without some more experience under my belt.



well i personally am not a real fan of limiting the choices of my players, however, some hints towards possible directions they can take are always a good thing. but what i really meant with my question/suggestion was that it might help to drop hints every now and then that bigger things are happening. perhaps the troubles they encounter are all part of a master plan of some unseen force? perhaps the king, while discussing employment of the characters got a urgent message about some country nearby preparing troops? all these kinds of things make the world more "alive". It makes it seem that there is always something going on, even if the characters are not activly involved, and in my experience, that keeps them curious about what happens next. it gives the world more of a story feel then a "do quest no1, then do quest no2" thing

[Seatbelt]

I know when my group does terribly with open-ended gameplay. our DM is having us try to create a criminal organization in this city and we just keep mucking it up. We really need quest givers and missions. Maybe that would help your group too?

[Just_Ice]

Just relax and let someone else DM.

You have to work with the friends you're given; and they'll get better at DMing overtime. Don't expect much, but you should get something, and it should improve.