Could Xykon, Redcloak and the MitD have taken Azure City alone?

[suszterpatt]

Not counting the ghost paladins in the throne room.

By DnD rules, can an army of 10,000 low level warriors/clerics/wizards, a few dozen (presumably) mid-level paladins, and a couple high level paladins defeat an epic lich sorcerer, a high level cleric and what is most likely a juvenile epic monster?

[Goosefarble]

I'm guessing they could have done a lot of damage; if MitD was used to his full capacity, he could probably beat a lot of the ground forces and crumble the walls, but all the clerics would probably be able to do some damage to Xykon and probably kill Redcloak. You can't really "not count" the ghost martyrs, since they're part of the defence too, so they'd probably finish Xykon off.

So, in short, no, but hell if they wouldn't give the city a run for its money.

[Incom]

Not counting the ghost paladins in the throne room.

By DnD rules, can an army of 10,000 low level warriors/clerics/wizards, a few dozen (presumably) mid-level paladins, and a couple high level paladins defeat an epic lich sorcerer, a high level cleric and what is most likely a juvenile epic monster?

There's a speech somewhere in the comic (I can't find it) about this. One high level character can't tear through an army. On average, one in twenty attacks will hit and deal scratch damage. I don't think anything can survive 500 hits, regardless of level. But that assumes each soldier gets a hit. If Xykon's any good at AOE, it's all over.

The main wild card in that scenario is MITD. He has ridiculous DR and AOE abilities, BUT he's not really sure how to use his abilities and (not so much at this point, but particularly once O-Chul spends some time with him) most likely to turn on the other two.

[suszterpatt]

There's a speech somewhere in the comic (I can't find it) about this. One high level character can't tear through an army. On average, one in twenty attacks will hit and deal scratch damage. I don't think anything can survive 500 hits, regardless of level. But that assumes each soldier gets a hit. If Xykon's any good at AOE, it's all over.

The main wild card in that scenario is MITD. He has ridiculous DR and AOE abilities, BUT he's not really sure how to use his abilities and (not so much at this point, but particularly once O-Chul spends some time with him) most likely to turn on the other two.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html :)


Thing is, Xykon has some pretty massive DR/blunt+good himself. Not to mention the titanium elementals (summoning's still fair game). I'd wager that most of the soldiers would be utterly useless against anything except Redcloak, but getting near him would be next to impossible.

[Vent Reynolt]

Xykon's DR 15/ bludgeoning and magic says no to scratch damage as only the most exceptional archers will have any hope of piercing it. Overland flight means that melee combatants are a non-issue. As for the clerics and wizards, Spell Turning, Spell Resistance (Cleric spell), and Spell Immunity (also Cleric) render all but the most powerful (lvl 10+) spellcasters a non-issue*.

Honestly, aside from the ghost paladins, Xykon and Redcloak would be more likely to run out of spells than to actually be in any danger from most of the combatants.

*I just know that someone is going to mention that they can just use SR: no spells, but seriously, aside from Tsukiko, who does that?

[NYCharlie212]

There's a chance that Redcloak could have lost to the high priest of the twelve gods (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html 5th panel). Also Xykon would have been wrecked by the ghost-martyrs. But as for MiTD, its really hard to say.

[Ancalagon]

In a full frontal assault where Xykon/Redcloak/MitD just start to bluntly hit an army of 10000? No, even if the rules would allow.

In a hit & run tactic? Yes. Teleport in, do massive damage here, teleport out. This and other nasty magic things then I'd be doable to flatten or conquer the city in a week or two.
Xykon's and Redcloak's ressources renew themselves every few hours, slain soldiers do that on a much, much slower pace.

On the other hand: we have no idea what other epic or nearly epic characters might be in the world and if Azure City could have gotten them for help if they had a week and knew what was going on.

But Xykon could have done it alone if he took a few days off for this. The other question is: If you take one day to eradicate the leaders of a city, do you even have to fight the actual army?

[hoff]

That really depends how long would it take them to dispel xykon and redcloak buffs. If they did that in the first turn then evil team would fall fast. On the other hand with 3 monsters alone a surprise attack would work wonderfully.

[Vladislav]

There's a speech somewhere in the comic (I can't find it) about this. One high level character can't tear through an army. On average, one in twenty attacks will hit and deal scratch damage. I don't think anything can survive 500 hits, regardless of level. But that assumes each soldier gets a hit. If Xykon's any good at AOE, it's all over.
Eh, Xykon has DR 15/Magic. None of the soldiers will ever scratch him. Not to mention he may be able to cast Stoneskin, and for sure is able to cast Greater Invisibility. And an aura of fear. The low-level grunts will do absolutely nothing to him.

The only thing they are good for is either running away in panic or dying in droves, thus establishing how dangerous and powerful he is.

[hamishspence]

DR/15 Magic and bludgeoning, no less. Even if squad leaders are higher level and equipped with magic weapons, they might not be the right kind of weapon.

[silversaraph]

In a full frontal assault where Xykon/Redcloak/MitD just start to bluntly hit an army of 10000? No, even if the rules would allow.

In a hit & run tactic? Yes. Teleport in, do massive damage here, teleport out. This and other nasty magic things then I'd be doable to flatten or conquer the city in a week or two.
Xykon's and Redcloak's ressources renew themselves every few hours, slain soldiers do that on a much, much slower pace.

On the other hand: we have no idea what other epic or nearly epic characters might be in the world and if Azure City could have gotten them for help if they had a week and knew what was going on.

But Xykon could have done it alone if he took a few days off for this. The other question is: If you take one day to eradicate the leaders of a city, do you even have to fight the actual army?

Heck, why even bother going in alone? We've seen how powerful the non-classic elementals and the xykon-lookalikes are. I would bring those forces in with the original trio on the first day to destroy the high level characters/aristocracy (to generate confusion), and then retreat but leave the summoned in there to deal as much damage as possible. Over the next week, put all spells into summoning, teleportation, mass buffs and zombification. You could generate an uber army in a matter of days as long as the first attack worked. And when the army finally mobilizes, throw a few bouncy symbol of insanities in for flavor and boom and the weak guys are taken care of.

I mean, just a few of those titanium elementals could probably destroy a small city if the high level characters were taken out first.

One burn, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html) and a couple dozen 5th level soldiers (who we know were the highest level the general had, along with a ton of buffs) are dead. Imagine the havoc a few of those would have in the middle of thousands of people.

[Gift Jeraff]

Bear in mind that in this scenario, the nobles should have stayed, which leaves Azure City with all of their men + Qarr (a mid/high-level sorcerer) + the giant devil Qarr can summon (an epic pit fiend?).

Also, since he only lost due to Plot/Funny, the High Priest of the Twelve Gods should be taken into account.

[Ancalagon]

Like Qarr would throw out his favour with the devil for Azure City. And what then? The devil eats Xykon and then... the devil eats Azure City?

Also, Qarr can be toasted by one Disintegrate, so I doubt he's that high level. Even if he was willing to contribute I doubt he'd be a game-turner.

[Gift Jeraff]

Like Qarr would throw out his favour with the devil for Azure City. And what then? The devil eats Xykon and then... the devil eats Azure City?It could be dismissed by Qarr and then be blamed on someone convenient for Kubota. You know, kinda like what he was actually going to do (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html) to Therkla? Or he could claim it was a minion of Xykon/Redcloak that turned on them. Assuming it could beat them--which I personally doubt. But I think it can do some serious damage to them.

[silversaraph]

I find it more likely that kubota and his men would team up with Xykon under the deal that they get the city afterwords (of course, a single disintegrate later would end that deal). Kubota was willing to kill a thousand or so civilians to rule over the ones left, I doubt he'd defend the city.

[Ancalagon]

Qarr does not even summon it. It was his ace in the sleeve in case HIS life got threatened.

He'd not blow this favour up for Azure City or for Kubota. Qarr (as well as Kubota!) would have waited to see how it turns out with Xykon (those strange, powerful attackers) - and the Qarr would have gotten this was the time for him to leave.
Maybe he'd try to wiggle some stuff out of Kubota, but I doubt you can count Qarr as asset on the side of Azure City. You surely cannot count the demon unless Qarr is directly threatened (and has time to summon the thing).

[Gift Jeraff]

Er, if Qarr summoned the devil solely to save his own hide, he could have just teleported away in the first place. It was to create (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html) a situation where (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0586.html) his primary, secondary, and tertiary targets could all be killed. Though I agree with the rest of your points.

[suszterpatt]

Bear in mind that in this scenario, the nobles should have stayed, which leaves Azure City with all of their men + Qarr (a mid/high-level sorcerer) + the giant devil Qarr can summon (an epic pit fiend?).

Also, since he only lost due to Plot/Funny, the High Priest of the Twelve Gods should be taken into account.Eh, I'm not buying it. Kubota would have found an excuse not to fight and betray the ruler anyway.

[Klear]

BTW, I don't see anything in the OP that excludes OOTS from this hypothetical battle. They'd still be there defending the city, right? And they ought to have a chance to beat Xykon together...

[veti]

Whatever Xykon and the MitD's natural bonuses, the defenders would (eventually) make mincemeat of Redcloak. And without Redcloak to save his bony backside, Xykon would have died in the throne room.

As for the MitD, we seem to be talking as if it were a tactical asset. Granted it's ridiculously strong, powerful and to all intents and purposes invulnerable... but can you really see it taking an effective part in a battle? I can't.

Finally, Xykon's DR is not the same thing as total invulnerability. What if those 10,000 soldiers with halberds also happen to be trained in power attack? Again, even if only one in 20 hits, it all adds up eventually.

[Onyavar]

By DnD rules, can an army of 10,000 low level warriors/clerics/wizards, a few dozen (presumably) mid-level paladins, and a couple high level paladins defeat an epic lich sorcerer, a high level cleric and what is most likely a juvenile epic monster?

All posters in this thread made good points. Sooo... it comes again to the strategy and tactics that Xykon+followers use. And how Azure City would prepare itself and how the Azurites would boost their loyalty.

With Xykon attacking in a full frontal attack, his chances decrease.
With Xykon aiming for the highest ranking target in a decapitation scenario, his chances increase.
With the leader of Azure City dead and moral low, Xykons chances increase.
With the city being optimally prepared for the right scenario, Xykons chances decrease.
With Azure City standing together loyally, Xykons chance decrease.
With Xykon bringing in an army, his chance increase.
With Redcloak summoning elementals and Skeleton Warrior decoys, Xykons chances increase.

And Xykon was aware of these circumstance bonuses, so he DID bother to bring along Redcloak, MitD and an army. Power equals Power, you know? How to USE the army was up to Redcloak - X was only interested in the Hobgoblins to provide a fleeting tactical advantage, a circumstance bonus for his run for the Sapphire Gate.

[Gray Mage]

Finally, Xykon's DR is not the same thing as total invulnerability. What if those 10,000 soldiers with halberds also happen to be trained in power attack? Again, even if only one in 20 hits, it all adds up eventually.

For low level mooks, it might as well be. Rules crunch ahead:

Most of the army were what, 1 first level fighters? PA for 1, damage is 1d10+2+ 1.5 str mod. To bypass DR 15, they need at least 16 damage, so a minumum str of 16 (+3 mod) and wish to max damage. If they were level 2, they would only need a minimum of 14 str, but even then we're not considering any of Xykon's spells or magic itens. Not that many soldiers would even get through, with his fear aura 95% of the soldiers that try will be panicking for as many rounds as Xykon has levels, which is a lot.

[Fitzclowningham]

For low level mooks, it might as well be. Rules crunch ahead:

Most of the army were what, 1 first level fighters? PA for 1, damage is 1d10+2+ 1.5 str mod. To bypass DR 15, they need at least 16 damage, so a minumum str of 16 (+3 mod) and wish to max damage. If they were level 2, they would only need a minimum of 14 str, but even then we're not considering any of Xykon's spells or magic itens. Not that many soldiers would even get through, with his fear aura 95% of the soldiers that try will be panicking for as many rounds as Xykon has levels, which is a lot.

Not to mention, Overland Flight means none of them get to do anything to him.

[Gray Mage]

Not to mention, Overland Flight means none of them get to do anything to him.

Except for the arches, that would still have the ability to waste arrows on him.

MitD would probably fare as well as Xykon, since it seems he also has high DR, but Redcloack would eventually die, if only because of numbers.

[Morquard]

Of course flight makes it nearly impossible to reach him. So lets assume "no flight" since otherwise its pointless :)

Just give out a couple of magic hammers to the frontline of your xykon-attacking-army and tell the guys behind them to pick up the hammer of the guy infront once he's dead. Not pretty, not nice, but might wear xykon down.

[Adicted To]

Sounds like a Russian tactic during the battle for Stalingrad: "Soldier one gets a loaded rifle, soldier two gets extra ammo. Soldier one shoots, when soldier one dies soldier two picks up the rifle and resumes to shoot"

[KingofMadCows]

Couldn't they just give everyone a bottle of holy water or attach a wet rag of holy water on the end of every arrow?

There's really no way for the low level soldiers to even get near Xykon due to his fear aura.

[Occasional Sage]

Of course flight makes it nearly impossible to reach him. So lets assume "no flight" since otherwise its pointless :)

Just give out a couple of magic hammers to the frontline of your xykon-attacking-army and tell the guys behind them to pick up the hammer of the guy infront once he's dead. Not pretty, not nice, but might wear xykon down.

Not pretty, not nice... and not factoring in morale.

[torugo]

For low level mooks, it might as well be. Rules crunch ahead:

Most of the army were what, 1 first level fighters? PA for 1, damage is 1d10+2+ 1.5 str mod. To bypass DR 15, they need at least 16 damage, so a minumum str of 16 (+3 mod) and wish to max damage. If they were level 2, they would only need a minimum of 14 str, but even then we're not considering any of Xykon's spells or magic itens. Not that many soldiers would even get through, with his fear aura 95% of the soldiers that try will be panicking for as many rounds as Xykon has levels, which is a lot.

You are forgetting that...if the warrior hits it is probably with 20 and can roll for a critical hit. For halbert its 3x damage. And why use halbert if they could use a bludgeoning weapon to bypass the damage resistance? Even a stone is a bludgeoning weapon....you can throw it at distance...

Now were me a DM, I would give you a simple way I would finish Xykon when he tries to enter Azure City all by himself. First...to defeat the city he will have to go to the ground. You can make a lot of damage flying, but to conquer you need to enter the city so eventually he will stop flying and go to the ground...so I will concentrate on this exact momment he goes to the ground.

He goes to the ground...and there will be a lot of lvl 1 fighters there willing to die for the city. A lot of those will run in dispair because of the aura...but some will pass their will save...and will be safe to fight the entire day. I would even give a circunstance bonus on this will save once they are in bigger quantity than in a usual encounter with a lich.

So lets focus on the ones that passed. They will be still a lot of warriors. Xykon will use a spell to kill many, but there will be a lot remaining. I will focus on the remaining and in their turn they will all attack at once.

They will do a lot of damage? Probably not. But I wont let Xykon do a single spell when surrounded by warriors everywhere. Its not a matter of frizzle cause of damage. Its a matter of no space and no way to prepare a spell. Unless if Xykon can do still spell, it becomes only a matter of time...and eventualy he is done with.

[KingofMadCows]

You are forgetting that...if the warrior hits it is probably with 20 and can roll for a critical hit. For halbert its 3x damage. And why use halbert if they could use a bludgeoning weapon to bypass the damage resistance? Even a stone is a bludgeoning weapon....you can throw it at distance...

Undead are immune to critical hits. Liches also have 15/bludgeoning and magic so the weapon has to be both magical and bludgeoning.

I suppose they could have the clerics cast magic stone, which also deals bonus damage to the undead.

[torugo]

Undead are immune to critical hits. Liches also have 15/bludgeoning and magic so the weapon has to be both magical and bludgeoning.

I suppose they could have the clerics cast magic stone, which also deals bonus damage to the undead.

I looked at this link to see what are the resistances of a lich.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lich
For my surprise...there was no critical resistance. The website could be wrong though...
Immunities (Ex): Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.

[KingofMadCows]

I looked at this link to see what are the resistances of a lich.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lich
For my surprise...there was no critical resistance. The website could be wrong though...
Immunities (Ex): Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.

"Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to undead. Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged."

SRD:Undead Type (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Undead_Type)

"Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects."

The liches immunities, other than the mind affecting thing, are in addition to the undead immunities.

[torugo]

Ok. So he cant be hit by non-magical weapons. Just put a priest next to each warrior and give each of them a club. Magic Weapon is a lvl 1 spell...

Even is a only warrior enviroment....its just a matter of all warriors (that passes the will save) jump over the lich. Unless if Xykon has still spell, he wont be able to cast if he has no space to move. People just need to try hold his arms and immobilize him. Try to do anything delicate in a crowded place. No spell can be done. Its not a matter of damage, its a matter of common sense.

[Fiery Diamond]

Actually, the "dogpile on Xykon" method might keep him from casting long enough to figure out what tactics could be used to hurt him if you could keep him on the ground next to soldiers long enough to dogpile him. Or drop multi-square boulders on him to pin him down, if you want to get picky about grapple rules.

[Vent Reynolt]

Ok. So he cant be hit by non-magical weapons. Just put a priest next to each warrior and give each of them a club. Magic Weapon is a lvl 1 spell...

Even is a only warrior enviroment....its just a matter of all warriors (that passes the will save) jump over the lich. Unless if Xykon has still spell, he wont be able to cast if he has no space to move. People just need to try hold his arms and immobilize him. Try to do anything delicate in a crowded place. No spell can be done. Its not a matter of damage, its a matter of common sense.

We know that Xykon does have Still Spell, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) and immunity to his own AOE effects. Even on the ground, Xykon can still laugh off mooks. Heck, he'd probably let them dogpile him just so that he could kill more of them with Stilled fireballs.

[torugo]

o_O

Azure City is screwed =P.

Yea...still spell does take away my strategy of the pile of humans over him. Best thing to do is have clerics near warriors with clubs then. Poor warriors i pitty them.

[GSFB]

Just give out a couple of magic hammers to the frontline of your xykon-attacking-army and tell the guys behind them to pick up the hammer of the guy infront once he's dead.

Except Xykon will petrify them, and their hammers will be locked in their lifeless hands.

[KingofMadCows]

I would say their best chance is to have all the low level soldiers use slings and have the clerics supply their ammo with magic stone. Give the mid and higher level people holy water to throw at Xykon if they can get close enough.

Each casting of magic stone creates 3 magical sling bullets that do 2d6+2 damage to the undead. They probably have enough clerics to make 1,000 sling bullets. 1,000 soldiers each fires off one bullet, 50 of them would hit, doing an around 450 damage to Xykon. Even if he has stone skin, he'll still take 300 damage. Of course, the range of meteor swarm is much greater than the maximum range of slings.

[Onyavar]

I guess there's no way that a low-level army (lvl 1-6) could ever beat Xykon, even if they're 10.000 men. It's almost the same case as Belkar the shoeless god of war vs. army of hobgoblins - only that Belkar gets wounded, and Xykon doesn't...

I would suggest a different scenario: Elite vs. Elite.

Xykon: X (lvl 25), Redcloak (lvl 16), MitD (lvl 18?) (as proposed by OT)
Azure City: Roy, Belkar, Haley, Durkon, V and Elan. O-Chul, Miko, Hinjo, Lien, and two other high-ranking Sapphire Paladins. Sangwaan, the high priest of 12 gods, the teleport wizard and two other high-ranking clerics/wizards of Azure City. The general and two other high-ranking warriors. Plus any high-level characters (PCs or NPCs) that are in the city and willing to battle Xykon. If you like, throw in Therkla and two high-level ninjas, but not to sabotize the Azure City mission. (All guys on AC side are lvl 10 and above, in most cases around lvl 13-16)

Let's assume they meet in the featureless plain in front of AC walls - Xykon had overland flight, but they dispelled it and he's (temporarily?) forced to the ground for the battle. Redcloak has summoned a few elementals, monsters and maybe Xykon decoys.
Let's assume Miko is still a paladin and will not start miko-ing her allies - otherwise, disregard her and assume the next-highest ranking paladin in her stead, whatever floats your boat. All the Paladins and Azure City guys are willing to sacrifice their lives to stop Xykon.
An important notice here is that Redcloaks summoned monsters can be dispelled by V or the clerics and wizards of Azure City.

How would THIS battle end - which tricks would you as Xykon or Azure City pull out of your sleeves?

[Fitzclowningham]

About the mooks, they're toast because Xykon has Cloudkill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html). That wipes out (no save) everyone 3rd level or below. Assuming X is 25th level, the effect will eventually cover an area nearly a mile in diameter. If he wanted to, he could just spam the spell and kill the whole city with Constitution damage.

[Gray Mage]

I guess there's no way that a low-level army (lvl 1-6) could ever beat Xykon, even if they're 10.000 men. It's almost the same case as Belkar the shoeless god of war vs. army of hobgoblins - only that Belkar gets wounded, and Xykon doesn't...

I would suggest a different scenario: Elite vs. Elite.

Xykon: X (lvl 25), Redcloak (lvl 16), MitD (lvl 18?) (as proposed by OT)
Azure City: Roy, Belkar, Haley, Durkon, V and Elan. O-Chul, Miko, Hinjo, Lien, and two other high-ranking Sapphire Paladins. Sangwaan, the high priest of 12 gods, the teleport wizard and two other high-ranking clerics/wizards of Azure City. The general and two other high-ranking warriors. Plus any high-level characters (PCs or NPCs) that are in the city and willing to battle Xykon. If you like, throw in Therkla and two high-level ninjas, but not to sabotize the Azure City mission. (All guys on AC side are lvl 10 and above, in most cases around lvl 13-16)

Let's assume they meet in the featureless plain in front of AC walls - Xykon had overland flight, but they dispelled it and he's (temporarily?) forced to the ground for the battle. Redcloak has summoned a few elementals, monsters and maybe Xykon decoys.
Let's assume Miko is still a paladin and will not start miko-ing her allies - otherwise, disregard her and assume the next-highest ranking paladin in her stead, whatever floats your boat. All the Paladins and Azure City guys are willing to sacrifice their lives to stop Xykon.
An important notice here is that Redcloaks summoned monsters can be dispelled by V or the clerics and wizards of Azure City.

How would THIS battle end - which tricks would you as Xykon or Azure City pull out of your sleeves?

As Xykon? Maximize Energy Drain, for casters, and Cloudkill, for everyone, are probably enough. Finger of Death and Mass Hold Person to make sure they're dead and Ghostform and Contingency in the , unlikely, case something goes really bad. This is without considering Redcloack buffing himself to CoDzilla levels, or MitD's unkown full abilities.

[suszterpatt]

About the mooks, they're toast because Xykon has Cloudkill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html). That wipes out (no save) everyone 3rd level or below. Assuming X is 25th level, the effect will eventually cover an area nearly a mile in diameter. If he wanted to, he could just spam the spell and kill the whole city with Constitution damage.Ouch. I guess most of the army really is useless, huh?

I guess it'd be pretty much down to the scenario Onyavar suggested anyway.

[KingofMadCows]

About the mooks, they're toast because Xykon has Cloudkill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html). That wipes out (no save) everyone 3rd level or below. Assuming X is 25th level, the effect will eventually cover an area nearly a mile in diameter. If he wanted to, he could just spam the spell and kill the whole city with Constitution damage.

But cloudkill has a range of 100 ft + 10 ft/level and it only spreads at 10 ft per round so it's easy to outrun. Xykon would need to come close enough to be attacked by ranged weapons in order for it to be effective. As I mentioned before, if 1,000 soldiers all armed with slings and a magic bullet from Magic Stone, a 1st level divine spell, they can do about 450 damage.

[Klear]

But cloudkill has a range of 100 ft + 10 ft/level and it only spreads at 10 ft per round so it's easy to outrun. Xykon would need to come close enough to be attacked by ranged weapons in order for it to be effective. As I mentioned before, if 1,000 soldiers all armed with slings and a magic bullet from Magic Stone, a 1st level divine spell, they can do about 450 damage.

As long as running away from the cloud leaves the walls and the city undefended... but the range isn't as bad as Fitzclowningham said, it's probably not worth it.

[137beth]

WITHOUT the ghost martyrs, yes, I think they could. 99% of the defenders of azure city couldn't do anything to Xykon OR MitD. Now, if RC and Xykon were fully optimized, nothing could stop them (a high level tier 1 caster and an epic level tier 2 caster). They are probably not optimized, though. Still, only a few paladins and low level casters even have a chance of hurting Xykon, while he can OHKO anything that comes his way. Combine this with animating all the low level azurites as undead...
And that is without help from RC and MitD.

[KingofMadCows]

As long as running away from the cloud leaves the walls and the city undefended... but the range isn't as bad as Fitzclowningham said, it's probably not worth it.

Unless they just climb 20 ft up on top of houses.

[Dr.Epic]

If by taken, you mean get the Gate, not sure. The two only care about the Gate. Sure Red Cloak want's revenge on the SG for the slaughter of his people, but I'm not sure even he'd be that distracted. Assuming without the army they still learned of the Gate's location, the three probably would have just used stealth to enter the throne room, and since there's no ghosts, they'd start the ceremony. Now, we have no idea how long it takes so we don't know who could have gotten there before it was over to stop them.

As for take over the city and remove everyone there who opposes them, no. Not even those three are that powerful.

[JackRackham]

Except for the arches, that would still have the ability to waste arrows on him.

MitD would probably fare as well as Xykon, since it seems he also has high DR, but Redcloack would eventually die, if only because of numbers.

Depending on what spells clerics have in this world, clerics have some buffs at that level that would give DR or allow them to draw hp from dying enemies. Idk what all Mr. Burlew is using, but I have a feeling a cleric of Red Cloak's level could figure out a way to survive in this situation, as well.

[snikrept]

If Xykon and the others snuck or 'ported in and attacked the throne room directly, there'd only be a few ghost-martyrs to fight other than Soon himself, as they wouldn't have to massacre the entire Sapphire Guard first.

Well, unless the ghost-martyrs include any paladin who has ever died in the service of Azure City, and not just the folks who bought it in the vicinity of the Gate.

[suszterpatt]

If Xykon and the others snuck or 'ported in and attacked the throne room directly, there'd only be a few ghost-martyrs to fight other than Soon himself, as they wouldn't have to massacre the entire Sapphire Guard first.

Well, unless the ghost-martyrs include any paladin who has ever died in the service of Azure City, and not just the folks who bought it in the vicinity of the Gate.Hinjo says the paladins are there as "reinforcements", so I'd wager there's already a sizeable amount of ghost martyrs ready.

But the main reason I excluded the ghost martyrs in the OP is because they're confined to the throne room, so they're easily avoided.

[NYCharlie212]

Hinjo says the paladins are there as "reinforcements", so I'd wager there's already a sizeable amount of ghost martyrs ready.

But the main reason I excluded the ghost martyrs in the OP is because they're confined to the throne room, so they're easily avoided.

Xykon would not attack Azure City if it wasn't for the gate though. I think he wouldn't have too much problem beating everyone in AC if he was just a random lich who wanted to conquer a city though. If he never even goes in the throne room, the strongest enemies he would face would be the Order, Miko, Hinjo, O-Chul, Lien, and the high priest of the 12 gods. Seeing how easily he dispatched Roy without even breaking a sweat kind of tells me that he wouldn't have had much problem beating everyone there.

[factotum]

I guess there's no way that a low-level army (lvl 1-6) could ever beat Xykon, even if they're 10.000 men.

I'm not convinced. Xykon's critical problem is that he's going to run out of spells LONG before the army runs out of men, and unless the survivors are willing to let him go and meditate somewhere for 8 hours, he'd be reduced to physical attacks. X's damage reduction is 15/bludgeoning and magic, so somebody with a simple wooden club will blast straight past it, and even if everyone is such a low level that they require a 20 to hit Xykon, that's still a lot of hits incoming!

I think what it comes down to is this: Xykon isn't stupid, he's just uncaring. If he didn't need an army of mooks he wouldn't bother having them, but he knows that he's vulnerable on his own and so he takes steps to ensure that he isn't!

[Fitzclowningham]

I'm not convinced. Xykon's critical problem is that he's going to run out of spells LONG before the army runs out of men, and unless the survivors are willing to let him go and meditate somewhere for 8 hours, he'd be reduced to physical attacks. X's damage reduction is 15/bludgeoning and magic, so somebody with a simple wooden club will blast straight past it, and even if everyone is such a low level that they require a 20 to hit Xykon, that's still a lot of hits incoming!

I think what it comes down to is this: Xykon isn't stupid, he's just uncaring. If he didn't need an army of mooks he wouldn't bother having them, but he knows that he's vulnerable on his own and so he takes steps to ensure that he isn't!

X can both fly and teleport. His Cloudkill goes for half a mile in all directions, but the mooks can outrun it. So if he wants to wipe out a big bunch of them, all he has to do is start on one side of them, cast Cloudkill, then teleport around their periphery and repeat. If he wants, he can pop to 300' over the middle of the group and drop another one. All the while, he's flying so clubs can't hurt him, and maybe he's using Improved Invisibility as well (does Ghostform allow for spellcasting?). Then he can ascend or teleport above the range of any attacks and watch the fun.

[EarFall]

I'm not convinced. Xykon's critical problem is that he's going to run out of spells LONG before the army runs out of men, and unless the survivors are willing to let him go and meditate somewhere for 8 hours, he'd be reduced to physical attacks. X's damage reduction is 15/bludgeoning and magic, so somebody with a simple wooden club will blast straight past it, and even if everyone is such a low level that they require a 20 to hit Xykon, that's still a lot of hits incoming!

I think what it comes down to is this: Xykon isn't stupid, he's just uncaring. If he didn't need an army of mooks he wouldn't bother having them, but he knows that he's vulnerable on his own and so he takes steps to ensure that he isn't!

No, bludgeoning AND magic means it needs to be both.

[Ancalagon]

I just want to throw in: Isn't it a bit hard to hit Xykon with a simple wooden club when he's flying overheard...?

I find it confusing how many people seem to think "Can Xykon (and X) beat an army on his (their) own?" means "Can Xykon (and X) beat an army on his (their) own by storming in without thinking and just blasting away?"

The first is a clear "yes", the second is a relatively clear "no".

Also, who said he had to beat the army in the first place to "defeat" it? Go in with your power and slaughter your enemies from the top of the hierarchy...

Kill the king.
Kill his 5 dukes and the Wizard.

Will the counts fight?

Kill his 15 counts.
Kill the seven high priests.

Does he have to go on? Come back tomorrow.
Kill the 39 barons (and their wifes).

At least at this point, no one of the 10000 workers or farmers who make up the body of the army will come to the army anymore. But even if they did, then you still have to kill the 100 knights and you'd be done. Army defeated without actually attacking the actual army.


This is the end of my on-topic-post.

----

This brings up a massive problem roleplaying games in a culture that has access to high magic.
Culture formed how society looks (or vice versa). People in the middle ages built high walls, even when they were super-expensive. Why? Because they were also super-useful. In a world with stone shape, earthquake, invisibility, fly, teleport... are your walls that useful?
How about killing leaders?

A world as any setting in D&D with "lots of magic" would create a very different culture and society than the ones we use to build or RPG-worlds.
We take some medival setting and slap magic on it and bingo, we have our RPG-world. We have our imagination of large armies clashing into each other, of cities with massive walls... but this idea is wrong. It fails to take into account a group of a dozen wizards or one epic spellcaster can make an army obsolete (simply because you get to the leaders), that an angry druid can level your castle - and whatnot.

The point is: A world with "lots of magic" will be very, very different from our world and taking our idea how war is waged and simply slapping it onto that setting is probably going to create a false idea.
Wars, society, cities.... all that would probably quite different with a few people around who can blow up stuff simply by wanting it (or hijack your mind! Or teleport into your lavatory! Or being able to summon Demons!).

Magic is a complete game-changer.

[Klear]

I find it confusing how many people seem to think "Can Xykon (and X) beat an army on his (their) own?" means "Can Xykon (and X) beat an army on his (their) own by storming in without thinking and just blasting away?"

Storming in without thinking and just blasting away seem to be quite in character for Xykon. Redcload would probably try to dissuade him, so the outcome would probably depend on his persuasiveness.

Re the off-topic rant - I've been thinking about that myslef - namely that with AoE spells you'd have to dispose of the traditional military formations. AFAIK soldiers nowadays tend to spread out because if they didn't, a single grenade would take care of them.
It would seem that if you want to have a realistic fantasy world, make magic scarce or dispose of most of the medieval stereotypes.

[Gray Mage]

Depending on what spells clerics have in this world, clerics have some buffs at that level that would give DR or allow them to draw hp from dying enemies. Idk what all Mr. Burlew is using, but I have a feeling a cleric of Red Cloak's level could figure out a way to survive in this situation, as well.

Well, I did say eventually, since Redcloack doesn't seem to be using persist shenanigans he'll probably run out of buffs before Azure City run out of soldiers, and then it'd depend if he could scape before he dies or not.


I'm not convinced. Xykon's critical problem is that he's going to run out of spells LONG before the army runs out of men, and unless the survivors are willing to let him go and meditate somewhere for 8 hours, he'd be reduced to physical attacks. X's damage reduction is 15/bludgeoning and magic, so somebody with a simple wooden club will blast straight past it, and even if everyone is such a low level that they require a 20 to hit Xykon, that's still a lot of hits incoming!

I think what it comes down to is this: Xykon isn't stupid, he's just uncaring. If he didn't need an army of mooks he wouldn't bother having them, but he knows that he's vulnerable on his own and so he takes steps to ensure that he isn't!

Except that it has already been pointed out, it's DR/ Bludgeoning and Magic, not Bludgeoning or Magic, you need both to bypass it.

Besides, why should something like the survivors not being willing to let him go stop him anyway? He has Greater Teleport, he is literally one voice comand and a standard action away from anywhere in the world. Then he can just rest for 8 hours, meditate for another hour and come back as good as new again, as much as he wants, as long as he leaves a 7th level slot unused for GT.

[Dark Matter]

Xykon casts Symbol of Insanity (and triggers it), Overland Flight, and Invisibility. He also casts Cloister so if someone teleports out they can't come back.

He flies over the entire city (which takes hours but his spells last that long), and everyone goes insane and kills everyone else.

If he misses a spot, he can do the same thing again.
If someone has Mind Blank or is otherwise immune then he can still go into direct combat with his other spells.

Game over.

[Ancalagon]

Storming in without thinking and just blasting away seem to be quite in character for Xykon.

Xykon can be very, very cunning. He's storming if he knows storming will get him what he wants. But if that is too big, he'll pull of a more tricky stunt. Much more tricky, if he has to.

[ArcaneSaint]

Defeating the army wouldn't be hard, even with a lot of high level (N)PCs around. Xykon merely has to Teleport to the least defended area of the city (if he's flying and invisible he doesn't even have to cast Teleport) and then cast almost all of his spells. When he's done killing lots of soldiers (and optionally zombifying them) he casts Teleport to return to a camp under the effect of Cloister (preferably covering both the city and his camp with the spell). when he gets to the camp he will rest to regain his spells, while Redcloak and MitD make sure nobody can attack X while he's resting. This is also the reasons xykon shouldn't cast all of his spells in the attack, so that in the off chance some adventurers/soldiers reach the camp they can be put down (Or so X, RC and MitD can escape)

This would dwindle enemy morale as well as enemy numbers, and the high-level characters can be dealt with once the army is decimated. Optimally, Xykon should kill one high-lvl char every second attack or so. The first attack being against much larger numbers, and the second one to take out a hero during the confusion.

It only takes only eight hours of rest and 15 minutes of concentration for a sorcerer to refresh his spells per day. This means he can attack just under 3 times per day. Because of the confusion, every successive attack will deal more damage as the leaders will be unsure of how to react, thus slowing the army's reaction time. The high-level characters might also be drawn towards Xykon's latest known position, abandoning their posts and weakening the defenses further.

The only drawback is that for this strategy to work, the attacker (Xykon) has to know the whereabouts of every high-level character that could pose a threat to him, and at the same time being aware of the defending army's weakest/strongest points. This needs a great amount of Scrying magic or an elaborate underground intelligence network. We know Xykon isn't good at scrying, and the hypothetical scenario being followed implies Xykon has no other allies than RC/MitD. But Xykon has all these crystal balls, and perhaps RC has some kind of scrying abilities? I'm not sure, my knowledge of cleric powers don't extend much beyond the "mobile hit point dispenser" service, or the evil "create legions of undead" stereotype. Anyway, there could be a workaround for that.

[Da'Shain]

I have to ask: what's stopping Xykon from simply using his bouncing ball trick multiple times and picking off the ones who make their Will saves?

If there's nothing stopping him, the Azure City army is worse than useless.

Of course, Xykon would win by himself anyway (never mind Redcloak and the MitD), it would just take a fair amount of time and continuous effort from him, something he's distasteful of. But there's literally no way for the army to hurt him unless he decides to be a complete moron and land; the most they could do is have their few clerics enchant sling ammo.

[137beth]

Yea, pretty much the only things stopping Xykon are
1. The ghost martyrs (which we are supposing were not there), and
2. His lack of concentration.

[snikrept]

The point is: A world with "lots of magic" will be very, very different from our world and taking our idea how war is waged and simply slapping it onto that setting is probably going to create a false idea.
Wars, society, cities.... all that would probably quite different with a few people around who can blow up stuff simply by wanting it (or hijack your mind! Or teleport into your lavatory! Or being able to summon Demons!).

Magic is a complete game-changer.
r.e. magic being the game changer: In a society in which a few folks had a lot of magic, and these few could change the outcome of wars by snapping their fingers, these folks would either be indisputably in charge everywhere, or else hunted down and killed on sight / in their sleep by anyone with any sense, depending on how organized the non-magically-adept rest of the population was.

Wizard who lives by himself in a tower in the middle of the wilderness, doesn't engage in politics and blasts interlopers on sight is probably pretty "realistic" given the amount of reasonable paranoia that wizard would have when no sane king can allow him to live - in the same way that no sane government would allow one of its citizens to walk about with a sack of live nuclear warheads and Smallpox aerosol dispensers.

[Ancalagon]

Take OotS or standard D&D as example. Casters are around. Obviously.

Scry & Die alone would make it impossible for any King or Guildmaster or whomever who might have enemies powerful enough to hire (or be) a caster to be alone. Anywhere. Anytime.

Tell me about paranoid if you know you can be jumped not by chance in the minute you are going to the toilet but because they know you will be away from your guards for a moment.

And that is just an example from the top of my head. Magic would be a gamechanger and our culture (whichever) does not translate well into one in which magic works as it does in D&D.

Who things could turn: Telepaths in Babylon 5 were some sort of mages and they got it "under control" by adding the Psi Corps, some sort of super facist secret police (and other nasty things the Corps did).

Also, your premise is off: You outline a world without magic, simply because the mages are hunted down or in towers. So below the bottom line, mages are not part of war.
That's just not the world I see when I read OotS or my D&D books. Here, sane kings apparently do allow people who do not only carry a block of C4, but who can cause such explosions with their minds (and the teleport out again).
And that was my initial point: D&D is "our perception of a medival culture + magic" but that would simply not work because "our perception of medical culture" is inherently without actually powerful and working magic. It'd be like trying to add apples to negative numbers. A and B simply are not from the same defined bodies and thus the result does not make any sense at all.

If it's about "Let's have fun and play this game!" this does not matter at all. If you want to think about it for a moment, it's getting interesting, I think. Utterly pointless, but still very interesting.

[Klear]

Reminds me of this:
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=282

I don't like that almost every (ok, probably every) magic system can be used to ruin physics. The removal of conservation of energy or instantaneous travel would require a fundamentally different different set of physical laws to the point that the universe would be completely incomprehensible to us, much less to allow people living there in the same way that we do.
As far as you don't know how or it doesn't occur to you, it's all fine, but then you just have to engage suspension of disbelief and stop thinking about it.

I find a little more interesting imagining how what magic spells would be enough to completely disintegrate any economy.