[3.5] knight/tank

[Bloodymango]

so im going to be starting a campaign soon, i choose the role of tank. i was looking at knight for a base class, do to there heavy armor and shield proficiency, d12 hit die and making all terrain difficult around them at third level. i was also looking at pious templar for mettle. but besides this what else do u guys recommend. looking for feats, PrC and any other advice. plz no ToB i do not want a dip in swordsage.

[Gwendol]

PersonMan has a good guide for Knights, I suggest starting there.

In general though, to make good use of the Bulwark of Defence ability you need reach (by weapon, size, etc).

[GeekGirl]

2-3 levels of paladin can go a long way.

[Fouredged Sword]

A dip of cleric and then entering PrC paladin can be very useful. You get turn undead, a spattering of cleric spells, and it only costs a little BaB.

[Glimbur]

Knight works ok. Consider using a reach weapon and spiked armor or unarmed strike so you can threaten more area. Mettle is nice to get, but a knight wants lots of knight so your Test of Mettle DC scales. Besides, look at that capstone. You can't tell me that isn't cool. Paladin can help your saves but imposes a code of conduct and costs a few levels off of knight abilities.

Other ways to tank require more esoteric power sources: ToB(which you already said you didn't want) or psionics (a psy war can get big and use reach, which is how you tank).

[Bloodymango]

of every thing i have read, the test of mettle is only good till around 12 or so bc things start have higher wills and become immune. so i am going to deviate from that route a little early. so im looking for a little more help. as for the cleric dip not feeling it, it a waste of a bab and i will only get limited spells. and for the paladin, i all ready have a code of conduct not looking to add more restrictions


1 Knight : weapon focus,ewp spiked chain
2 Knight
3 Knight : power attack
4 Knight
5 fighter : Mage Slayer
6 Exotic Weapon Master : close quarters fighting
7 EWM
8 hell reaver
9 hell reaver : feat
10 hell reaver
11 hell reaver
12 hell reaver : imp int
13 hell reaver
14 hell reaver
15 hell reaver : Defensive Sweep
16 occult slayer
17 occult slayer
18 occult slayer : feat
19 occult slayer
20 occult slayer


human
16
10
14
10
8
14

[Glimbur]

If you're looking to tank it really helps if you can control an enemy's movement. Therefore, Improved Trip and/or Stand Still are pretty handy to have. Attacks of Opportunity are also important for stopping people from doing things off of your turn, so Combat Reflexes is nice too.

[Bloodymango]

plz ignore feats above there i altered them to add stand still.i also changed my int and dex. i figure since i will be keeping the enemy away close quarters fighting would be useless. looking for two more feats. just in case DM doesnt allow mage slayer (very OP with a knight) or stand still (b/c its out of a psionic book)
1 Knight weapon focus,ewp
2 Knight ;
3 Knight power attack;
4 Knight
5 fighter Mage Slayer
6 Exotic Weapon Master combat reflexes
7 EWM
8 hell reaver
9 hell reaver stand still
10 hell reaver
11 hell reaver
12 hell reaver feat
13 hell reaver
14 hell reaver
15 hell reaver Defensive Sweep
16 occult slayer
17 occult slayer
18 occult slayer feat
19 occult slayer
20 occult slayer


human
16
12
14
8
8
14

[Pechvarry]

Obviously, the Playground will disagree with Mage-Slayer being OP on a knight, but I don't know how your DM runs mages. And Stand Still is on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) as a General feat, so that might help with getting it accepted. Your build actually looks like a lot of fun.

I would, however, talk to your DM about powering up Occult Slayer if you happen to get to those high of levels. Namely, Nondetection Cloak needs its effective caster level bumped up to character level instead of class level. As written, a level 20 wizard will roll d20+20 (average: 30.5) vs DC 20. In fact, they will succeed on a roll of a 1. How many times is your DM actually going to have a level 10 minion mage (a first in itself) trying to find you via clairvoyance?

EDIT: Do you have something special in mind with the Exotic Weapon Master levels? Probably Flurry of Strikes and maybe Trip Attack? This seems like the weak link in your build, and it seems like the extra 2 levels in Hellreaver could serve you well -- and also free up Weapon Focus for yet another feat (Pierce Magical Concealment, for example).

[Bloodymango]

thanks i will run that by him about powering up OS. Also i was right he banned mage slayer out right

[Bloodymango]

EDIT: Do you have something special in mind with the Exotic Weapon Master levels? Probably Flurry of Strikes and maybe Trip Attack? This seems like the weak link in your build, and it seems like the extra 2 levels in Hellreaver could serve you well -- and also free up Weapon Focus for yet another feat (Pierce Magical Concealment, for example).

your right i did do it wrong. i was going to take Flurry of Strikes and uncanny blow. but spiked chain is a 2h weapon. as for the 8 levels in Hellreaver i messed that up 2 i put 10 levels in then replaced the first 2 with EWM and never added them back on then end thanks good catch

[Essence_of_War]

If you're interested in tripping, you can get improved trip without the requisite combat expertise or int-13+ by taking two levels of wolf-totem barbarian.

Similarly, you can take 2 levels of monk to get combat reflexes without meeting the dex-13+ requirement of that feat.

This leaves you with only 3 feats necessary to fill out the usual tripping chain (EWP:Spiked Chain, Standstill, Knockdown)!

It isn't as good if you REALLY want to have Knight test of mettle and such because it dilutes your knight levels, but, if you'd be willing to try a crusader:

Wolf-totem Bbn 2/Monk2/Paladin2/Crusader X

Could be VERY scary.

[ClothedInVelvet]

I know you don't want to dip in swordsage, but if you aren't too scared of the ToB, the martial classes are actually unique and interesting variations. Warblade and Crusader can both make exceptional tanks. And the fluff can be done however you want it.

[Bloodymango]

the group that i play with uses mostly the LGCS. we sometimes allow other items in after a group consensus. As for the tripping that wasnt my intentions, we will have a monk in the party all ready tripping and pinning foes. I'm just going for a brick wall that no 1 is getting past.

[Essence_of_War]

I would check out Person Man's Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429) for supplementary reading.

[Pechvarry]

Similarly, you can take 2 levels of monk to get combat reflexes without meeting the dex-13+ requirement of that feat.

Combat Reflexes actually has no dexterity requirement. Also, grabbing it with only a 12 or less dexterity is rather counterproductive for an AoO lockdown tank.

[Bloodymango]

Combat Reflexes actually has no dexterity requirement. Also, grabbing it with only a 12 or less dexterity is rather counterproductive for an AoO lockdown tank.



going to have to agree with that. but i do kinda like that style, so i augmented my build to do something along those lines.


1 Knight weapon focus, ewp spiked chain
2 Knight
3 Knight power attack
4 Knight
5 fighter combat exp
6 fighter imp trip, knockdown
7 Exotic Weapon Master (+2 to trip)
8 Exotic Weapon Master (flurry of strikes)
9 hell reaver stand still
10 hell reaver
11 hell reaver
12 hell reaver PROTECTION DEVOTION
13 hell reaver
14 hell reaver
15 hell reaver Defensive Sweep
16 hell reaver
17 hell reaver
18 hell reaver PROTECTION DEVOTION
19 fighter
20 fighter weapon spec

human
16
10
13
13
8
14

[Bloodymango]

also knock-down is a 3.0 feat. so that needs to be replaced

[Optimator]

also knock-down is a 3.0 feat. so that needs to be replaced

So? It's still legal as long as a 3.5 book didn't replace or revise it.

[LaughingRogue]

So? It's still legal as long as a 3.5 book didn't replace or revise it.

Legal by our standards, but there is obviously a home rule in place here by the way he words it.

[Cog]

also knock-down is a 3.0 feat. so that needs to be replaced
Deities and Demigods got an official 3.5 update, and Knock-Down was unchanged, meaning it's fully up-to-date.

[Gwendol]

That 10 DEX will hurt you by not taking full advantage of your reach weapon. If you increase DEX you could (potentially) skip Comb Exp and Imp Trip and thus put points in INT elsewhere: You'll AoO them as they get up, or just beat the hell out of them while they're prone. You're full BAB so past level 6 I'd say the utility of Imp Trip decreases (just trip them with the first attack and pound them to the ground using the iterative attacks). Also, tripping is somwhat situational as you often need to get really big and strong to make it work reliably.
With two feats to spare you can take Imp Bull rush, or sunder and get a tactical feat. It might balance your defensive and offensive options somewhat. Also, since you will have mounted combat "for free" you could spend a feat developing that a little, at least getting Ride-by-Attack which is a solid choice.

[hobbitkniver]

I partied with a knight once and he was a very good tank without really trying. Unless he didn't calculate his powers correctly (possible), he could basically make anything with 3+ int attack him as a swift action. Maybe it was only personal experience, but I think knights are quite useful.

[Gnaeus]

I partied with a knight once and he was a very good tank without really trying. Unless he didn't calculate his powers correctly (possible), he could basically make anything with 3+ int attack him as a swift action. Maybe it was only personal experience, but I think knights are quite useful.

It really depends a lot on which monsters DMs use, and how the DM plays them.

Here are some of the problems:
1. It is based on class level (so if you multiclass out, you are screwed) and on charisma (making you need another high stat) so you are pretty much locked into being a high-cha knight to make it work. Note that for most low tier melee, dipping base classes and PRCs is the easiest recipe for success.

2. It is based on a will save. Compare this with the many abilities that other classes get that can cripple an enemy that fails a will save. All this ability does is try to make them attack you.

3. Imagine a level 10 knight, with a 20 cha. Against CR 10 foes, most will make their saves more than half the time. Against CR+3-4 foes (bosses) most will make their saves 75% of time or more. (and this is assuming that they aren't using items or spells to boost their saves, if they are, you may be looking at saves that only fail on a nat 1). If you can't make strong enemies attack you, you are a bad tank.

Remember that for most classes that rely on saving throws as their main trick (like the PF witch) it is based on their primary stat. Where they will be focusing all their stat buffs, and a fair chunk of their gp expense. Knights also need at least a good Str (to do damage) and Con (to not die when enemies use fort saves). And most classes that use a lot of save-or-lose effects have other tricks they can use if they run into enemies with really high saves.

4. It doesn't actually make them attack you. It makes them target you over other targets. An intelligent foe who fails his save can do things like withdraw and plaster the party in AOEs, just including you in the radius. Or use buffs on allies. Or summon monsters. Or battlefield control. Or run away and get help. Or (assuming that they know what Knights are) zap you with Fort based save or die/lose. It does not make them engage you in melee.

5. It doesn't work at all on many enemies. If it is ruled as a mind affecting power (which isn't clearly stated, but I think many DMs would rule this way based on what it does) it is easily defended against.

The best way in 3.5 to make an intelligent enemy attack you is to be so dangerous that they know that they can't ignore you (as opposed to stupid enemies, where you just stand in their way, but there will usually be increasingly few of these as game goes on). Knights are really bad at that compared with most of the classes in the game.

[Pechvarry]

going to have to agree with that. but i do kinda like that style, so i augmented my build to do something along those lines.


1 Knight weapon focus, ewp spiked chain
2 Knight
3 Knight power attack
4 Knight
5 fighter combat exp
6 fighter imp trip, knockdown
7 Exotic Weapon Master (+2 to trip)
8 Exotic Weapon Master (flurry of strikes)
9 hell reaver stand still
10 hell reaver
11 hell reaver
12 hell reaver PROTECTION DEVOTION
13 hell reaver
14 hell reaver
15 hell reaver Defensive Sweep
16 hell reaver
17 hell reaver
18 hell reaver PROTECTION DEVOTION
19 fighter
20 fighter weapon spec

human
16
10
13
13
8
14

I have to say -- a cleric 1 dip would be better than spending those feats on protection devotion. Your dip gets you turn attempts to fuel protection devotion, but it also lets you trade out 1 of your domains for the devotion feat itself. So a level 1 dip in Cleric could net you Protection Devotion, Earth Devotion (light crowd control to funnel bad guys to you), and the turn attempts to use them more often. That's a lot of gain for -1 BAB.

There's also something to be said about you having enough feats that you said "screw it" and grabbed weapon specialization.

Also, I wish I knew what was in your DM's brain that makes him think mage-slayer is so powerful...

[Bloodymango]

I have to say -- a cleric 1 dip would be better than spending those feats on protection devotion. Your dip gets you turn attempts to fuel protection devotion, but it also lets you trade out 1 of your domains for the devotion feat itself. So a level 1 dip in Cleric could net you Protection Devotion, Earth Devotion (light crowd control to funnel bad guys to you), and the turn attempts to use them more often. That's a lot of gain for -1 BAB.

There's also something to be said about you having enough feats that you said "screw it" and grabbed weapon specialization.

Also, I wish I knew what was in your DM's brain that makes him think mage-slayer is so powerful...


i took weapon spec and protection devotion bc i dont no what else to take. and as for mage slayer. the whole group besides me said it was to powerful.
i will switch out the feats if i could find something better

[Bloodymango]

i was thinking the AoO on grapple attempts to resist the grapple. wahts it called close quoters combat

[Bloodymango]

question with bulwark of defence. since im using a spiked chain does that extend the bulwark to 10 feet also is it a threatening area. another thing is defensive sweep worth it. bc i wont be adjacent to my target most of the time

[Essence_of_War]

From PHB2 Excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2)


Bulwark of Defense (Ex): When you reach 3rd level, an opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain. Your strict vigilance and active defensive maneuvers force your opponents to move with care.


So yes, it extends to any area you threaten with the chain.

[Gwendol]

Test of Mettle isn't designed to draw Bosses, it's to attract the minions so that the rest of the team can concentrate on the hard targets. And if that doesn't work just Enlarge the (chain-wielding) knight and AoO the hell out of everyone until they target him wether they passed the will save or not.

[DoctorGlock]

How attached are you to the knight class? Is it the class or the flavor? If it's the second, the cleric has enough PrCs to be a knight in shining armor (especially if you dip a few levels in prestige paladin(along with ordained champion or knight of the raven) as previously suggested, then grab battle blessing) and with the spells, you can threaten a large reach. As a cleric tank, you represent enough of a threat that enemies will want to attack you, and with divine metamagic, delay death, and constitution buffs, you will out HP the knight. If you are attached to the knight for test of mettle, be aware that post level 8, most things are flat out immune due to amazing saves.

Is ToB a personal dislike or a group banning? If it's the first, you might want to look into it for the non swordsage classes, Crusader is everything you want without major dipping required, and thicket of blades will help you threaten even more.

If you are set on a mundane character and want the antimage capabilities that were banned, look into the witch slayer PrC. If your DM considers the mage slayer feat OP, he likely will not optimize his mages to the point where they auto-pass against momentary disjunction, and you can have it online by level 10. It meshes well with paladin because of good saves and mettle. So that's another possible non-caster knight.

[Bloodymango]

What about defensive sweep. think i should ditch it

[DoctorGlock]

i'd ditch it, by the time you hit BAB 15 you should have far better uses of a feat. Anyone can take a full round action against you and still get a 5' step afterwards to avoid retaliation, and if you took a full attack from anything, you are probably too dead to act anyway.

[Gnaeus]

Test of Mettle isn't designed to draw Bosses, it's to attract the minions so that the rest of the team can concentrate on the hard targets.

I think its a little optimistic to say that is "designed" to do anything. I will concede that it would be more useful if your dm likes to swarm you with tons of under CR creatures. But if your DM likes to swarm you with tons of under CR creatures, why not actually take a class that can dispose of them, like a DFA?


And if that doesn't work just Enlarge the (chain-wielding) knight and AoO the hell out of everyone until they target him wether they passed the will save or not.

So it is an AOO using, charisma based melee fighter with a weak fort save. Cool, that is 4 required high stats. Add Int for skills if you actually expect him to contribute anything outside of combat. So your only dump stat is wisdom, which you probably don't want to dump too low for saving throw purposes. Nice.