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Greysect
2011-06-21, 11:14 AM
This is not about which system is better, but what each system is capable of without heavy homebrewing.

D&D 3.5 is my first and only tabletop roleplaying system for six years. Scouring forums like these for some time now, I'm aware that 3.5 is not a perfect game, and that there are other games out there for people with different preferences in the genre of fiction or the system of character development. It seems that GURPS is another popular system, so I thought that would be as good a place as any to start to explore other ways to roleplay.

What I ask of you, playground, is to please, please, please list for me the strengths and weaknesses of D&D 3.5 and the most recent edition of GURPS. I don't expect to learn which is the better system, but the nature of each system, and what styles of playing are better suited for each. Which system has a larger focus on combat? Which one is friendlier to homebrewing? What rules are streamlined and which are complex?

Thank you in advance.

Arbane
2011-06-21, 11:49 AM
Hoo boy, where to start....

Okay, for one thing, GURPS is a levelless, classless, point-buy system. You make your character pretty much from scratch. This is wonderful if you already have an idea, otherwise not so much.

Character build-point totals go on a rough scale from 0 (subnormal) to 25 (ordinary joe) to 100 (beginning hero) to 500 (beginning superhero).

Characters' "Hit Points" are based on on of their stats, and don't improve much over the character's lifespan. An arrow through the skull will ruin your whole day no matter how badass you are.

GURPS can do 'realistic' a bit better than D&D can. It has a fair number of rulebooks set in the modern-day/near-future.

GURPS has a LOT of sourcebooks. Historical settings, sci-fi, fantasy, general weirdness. Pick a genre or setting you like, and start there.

GURPS has a LOT of optional rules. (I know of at least 4 different magic systems, for example, and that's not counting psionics.) DON'T try to use all of them in one game, that way lies madness.

Does this help at all?

Bucky
2011-06-21, 11:51 AM
Which system has a larger focus on combat?
3.5 has a larger focus on combat because character progression is tied directly to combat victories. In GURPS, character progression is tied to roleplaying and completing plot objectives.



Which one is friendlier to homebrewing?
I can't answer this one directly due to lack of experience. GURPS has several pages of homebrewing guidelines in core, while 3.5 (afaik) does not.



What rules are streamlined and which are complex?

The rule of thumb is that GURPS has optional rules for everything. In terms of combat, GURPS attacks typically take three die-rolls to resolve while 3.5 attacks only require one.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-21, 11:51 AM
GURPS can do anything, including heroic fanatsy.

D&D can only do heroic fantasy.

Although GURPS needs quite a few tweaks to imitate D&D-style heroic fantasy (the Dungeon Fantasy line ahs the tweaks you need), so if you just want to kick in doors, kill monsters and take their stuff, D&D is probably a better choice.

Shpadoinkle
2011-06-21, 11:53 AM
Which system has a larger focus on combat?
D&D, definitely. The majority of the PHB is dedicated to stuff about how you resolves various combat actions, and has a couple guidelines for social things (diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive making up just about 100% of what the PHB dedicates to the social aspect of the game, if you ignore fluff.) Meanwhile GURPS has various abilities dealing with social interaction and stresses the importance of separating character actions from what the player might think.

Which one is friendlier to homebrewing?
Considering the sheer scope of GURPS, there's not a whole lot of stuff left to homebrew for (except premade monsters and such, but there are supplements that have things like that.) So, D&D.

What rules are streamlined and which are complex?
GURPS is pretty streamlined, and I picked up the basics in about two minutes. D&D is kind of all over the map. 3.5e did a LOT to streamline how things are handled compared to 2e (saving throws, attack rolls, AC, BAB progression, and skills all come to mind) but there are still a lot of stumbling blocks for new players.

GURPS is less narrow in scope and far more flexible, but... that can also lead to a feeling of falling through a void sometimes. It has no default underlying lore or setting, for instance, so the GM has to come up with all of that unless he uses premade stuff from one of the supplements.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-21, 11:56 AM
If you just go by the rules presented in the "generic" books, there is some underlying default lore.

Other universes exist. Magic relies on mana. Demons are summoned by necromancers.

But you can, naturally, rework any of that. Because it's GURPS.

Greysect
2011-06-21, 12:03 PM
GURPS is less narrow in scope and far more flexible, but... that can also lead to a feeling of falling through a void sometimes. It has no default underlying lore or setting, for instance, so the GM has to come up with all of that unless he uses premade stuff from one of the supplements.

I was actually planning on using GURPS to get away from the lore of D&D. My previous campaigns have had humans only, low-magic, no alignment, and low-level play restricted to lower tiered classes such as Rogue and Barbarian, which deviates from how D&D is supposed to be played by at least some extent. If I used GURPS instead, I suppose it woud be easier or smoother to capture the grittiness and danger of a low-level, low-magic game.

kyoryu
2011-06-21, 12:22 PM
Which one is friendlier to homebrewing?
Considering the sheer scope of GURPS, there's not a whole lot of stuff left to homebrew for (except premade monsters and such, but there are supplements that have things like that.) So, D&D.


Wow, I'm gonna disagree with that.

Homebrew for GURPS will tend to be smaller in scale (a skill, an advantage/disadvantage, etc.), but the system itself is designed in such a way to be *incredibly* friendly to the addition of new skills/advantages/etc.

Also, GURPS is more rightly considered a build-your-own-RPG-kit than a game in and of itself. To a certain extent, you *have* to homebrew GURPS. Any game will, at the minimum, require the GM to decide on not only the setting, but what supplements/sourcebooks are required.


I was actually planning on using GURPS to get away from the lore of D&D. My previous campaigns have had humans only, low-magic, no alignment, and low-level play restricted to lower tiered classes such as Rogue and Barbarian, which deviates from how D&D is supposed to be played by at least some extent. If I used GURPS instead, I suppose it woud be easier or smoother to capture the grittiness and danger of a low-level, low-magic game.

This is, in my experience, accurate. GURPS does gritty fantasy better out-of-the-box than D&D of pretty much any edition. It's a bit harder to get truly "heroic" fantasy out of GURPS though, especially heroic fantasy as defined by D&D 3.x.

Greysect
2011-06-21, 12:31 PM
Also, GURPS is more rightly considered a build-your-own-RPG-kit than a game in and of itself. To a certain extent, you *have* to homebrew GURPS. Any game will, at the minimum, require the GM to decide on not only the setting, but what supplements/sourcebooks are required.

This is, in my experience, accurate. GURPS does gritty fantasy better out-of-the-box than D&D of pretty much any edition. It's a bit harder to get truly "heroic" fantasy out of GURPS though, especially heroic fantasy as defined by D&D 3.x.

I like what I'm hearing. Whenever I want to return to heroic fantasy, I'll use D&D. Otherwise, this system sounds nice. I suppose what I want from an RPG is a box of rules, not a box of premade worlds. If that's GURPs, I think I'll buy it.

Fhaolan
2011-06-21, 12:48 PM
The main problem with GURPS is that it's not a 'play out of the box' system. The GM has to do a *lot* of work to winnow down the options, especially if the group hasn't spent years with the system prior. There are tons of alternate magic systems, cinematic vs mundane options, advantages, disadvantages and skills detailed that are genre-specific that need to be vetted, etc. And a metric ton of supplimental books detailing options for every conceivable genre, most of which are 80-90% compatable even if they are for different editions.

If you, as GM, are willing to do all this work, then it's a great system.

Oh, and the various editions of GURPS are less distinct from each other than what you might be used to from D&D. While there are structural changes between editions, stuff from one edition is still usable with other editions with some intelligent editing.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-21, 12:49 PM
I like what I'm hearing. Whenever I want to return to heroic fantasy, I'll use D&D. Otherwise, this system sounds nice. I suppose what I want from an RPG is a box of rules, not a box of premade worlds. If that's GURPs, I think I'll buy it.

No, use Dungeon Fantasy!

Dungeon Fantasy is awesome. Everyone should use it at least once.

DukeofDellot
2011-06-21, 01:00 PM
There have been quite a few posts in the time it took me to type this... oh well.

D&D has a higher focus on combat? Probably... Though GURPS combat has more to it, and... You know what, I won't be able to post this without saying that I prefer GURPS in almost every way. Uh... so... yeah... Let's say that I got used to GURPS combat, D&D 3.5e combat just feels awkward.

Alright, I'll try to be a little more fair for the rest of the post.

Homebrew is more common for D&D, GURPS very rarely needs it, though often you'll find yourself "modeling" things, since building your setting's races, "classes", and Powersets are defined within the rules, I'd say D&D is more homebrew friendly. That said, I'll start playing a game of GURPS months before I actually sit down to a table with my friends. Is that desirable? For some no, for me, absolutely.

Streamlining? GURPS has only three types of rolls, players only need to know how to make two of them. They are both moderately complicated, and can bog down a game if too much detail is observed, but in the normal usage, they are quick and easy. These rolls are the Success Roll (which can be contested or have Active Defenses against), the Damage Roll (which has DR subtracted from it, then it has a damage multiplier applied to it), and the Influence Roll (which I usually don't use... and have never missed). In D&D there are also three types of rolls (if I remember correctly) but I'm pretty sure you know them.

I'd say they're pretty close on streamlining...

D&D gives you the races and classes by default, but no guidelines to building your own... that's not fair... they give hints here and there about what they think keeps their races balanced with one another (again, if I remember correctly) and a good Home brewer can freely make some. In GURPS, the basic set gives standardized rules for building your races and "classes" by default, but a good list of them to be used in a single campaign costs you a little extra. Campaign settings usually come with a good list of both, but the basic set doesn't have one of those.

Complexity... GURPS was designed by a handful of Sci-fi and fantasy writers, a Physicist, a Martial Arts instructor, among others... some of the rules get pretty complex here or there. For example a slam attack (such as hitting someone with your car) does mass (HP) times velocity (speed) divided by one hundred dice of damage (all dice are six sided). This is used for all damage that is based on collisions, such as falling (You use the gravity acceleration to determine velocity... a real world measure) or jousting (switch the damage type to impaling from crushing, which might also happen if you're falling into a pongee pit)... But most of the game will be roll three dice under your skill, if the GM thinks you're attempting something extreme, your skill will be reduced for the roll.

I'll go back to combat... If you've seen it in an action movie, you can do it in GURPS, and it's a part of the core rules. Now long time GURPSers often include five volumes into the "core rules", so I'll specify that if it's something a gunslinger or warrior did, you'll find it in Martial Arts, if it's something a... anything else did you'll find it in Powers (and possibly also Magic).

Flaws, you already know your D&D flaws (or what you perceive them to be), but know that GURPS 4e also has her flaws. Munchkinry... is very possible. Check this (http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=239055&postcount=216) out. What is that? Well, when you build a power, you build it's abilities by selecting an Advantage and adding on modifiers. This Ability is built to be able to destroy anyone, anywhere, if they don't have a specific advantage (that's not supposed to appear naturally, but expect every other PC to have it at its [8] point price) that defends against it. This ability has a range of "everywhere on any planet", requires no attack roll, ignores normal DR (cosmic DR negates it altogether), and deals 300 points of toxic damage per second to as many targets as the user would like. All this for [53] points which should be available most characters with room to build an otherwise fully fleshed out individual. The GM is allowed to say "no" for a reason...

One thing on the player side. A lot of D&D players expect "anything goes" to be standard, while GURPS "anything goes" doesn't even exist. Some optional rules are mutually exclusive with others. Further, if you're in a wild west game, a GM wants "realism", while a player wants to play a Sword swinging spellcaster... so the GM should think ahead and specify what is and isn't allowed. It's always a good thing for a player to look over the templates that a campaign provides, and if you're at the gaming table, without a character, and the GM has provided multiple templates to choose from, take a template and sit down.

GURPS is not actually as classless as many try to push. You just build the classes yourself (or buy them for a little extra) and players who think ahead are given the option to not use them... at least that's how that runs at my table.

There are a few types of games that GURPS doesn't run very well. High lethality, is one of them. GURPS, at first, looks very lethal, but you'll soon realize that even though you'll go down on one to five attacks, you're very likely to survive loosing a fight (without the bleeding optional rule), so when a player has to build a new character every other session, he'll be having to rub up against the three hour character building pretty hard. Build Character templates for those games if you want them... or play a different system... I also don't suggest D&D 3.5e for them... though I have Red Box as one of my choices in that field. Four Color Supers is hard to run if the players don't know the system very well (there's a supplement for it however), though low-powered or gritty Supers can be loads of fun right from the start...

I think I mentioned GURPS is my system of choice. So take all of this with a grain of salt.

Also, if I can convince my players, I'll use GURPS Dungeon Fantasy instead of D&D. It plays smoother, I think. But oftentimes I'll just whip out Banestorm and play some semi-controversial "historic" fantasy instead. Now that's really my style.

kyoryu
2011-06-21, 01:21 PM
There's a few other weirdnesses with GURPS that are worth noting. Keep in mind I ran GURPS for *years*, and in a lot of ways it's still a favorite system of mine.

Playing a ranged character can be *annoying*. To get any accuracy at all requires multiple turns of basically doing nothing, especially with medieval/fantasy type weapons.

The DR/damage system kinda breaks down at higher levels, especially in high tech. Damage can quickly break down into no effect/thin red paste options, with little in the middle. You may argue it's realistic, but I don't particularly care. Also, with large numbers of dice, randomness decreases.

Character creation is a process, and will probably need help from the GM for many if not most players.

The GM *will* need oversight of created characters, and *will* be required to veto certain things. GURPS is not a game for GMs that are unwilling to say "no" by fiat.

Some of the rules are a bear. Even penalties for hitting a movement target with a ranged weapon are more annoying than they need to be. As mentioned above, some of the rules for things like vehicles colliding... *shiver*.

You get some weird effects due to how the math works. An "expert" swordsman (18 skill) will blow his defense roll over half the time, allowing a goon to hit him. Put him in plate mail, and his defense roll increases to the point where it's nearly impossible to hit him - and that's before damage reduction due to plate.

Magic is *different* than D&D. Mages tend to be more versatile, and more easily to keep slinging magic all day - but at a cost of reduced overall power. One variant worth looking at, IMHO, is UMana.

The lethality of GURPS is overrated in fantasy scenarios. It's pretty easy to get knocked out, but much tougher to actually die. In fact, it's a lot more like 4e D&D in that aspect, except with fewer abilities to just bounce back into the fight.

NOTE: All of these comments are based on 3rd edition. Some of these may have been cleared up in 4th.

DukeofDellot
2011-06-21, 01:46 PM
NOTE: All of these comments are based on 3rd edition. Some of these may have been cleared up in 4th.

That said...


Playing a ranged character can be *annoying*. To get any accuracy at all requires multiple turns of basically doing nothing, especially with medieval/fantasy type weapons.

I've never seen this as a problem. If you have stealth, triple aim, then open combat by completely eliminating one foe. Fast-Draw an arrow and aim, next turn you disable another. Ranged combat is Awesome, but requires a player to be willing to sacrifice a turn here or there.


The DR/damage system kinda breaks down at higher levels, especially in high tech. Damage can quickly break down into no effect/thin red paste options, with little in the middle. You may argue it's realistic, but I don't particularly care. Also, with large numbers of dice, randomness decreases.

There are a lot of people saying this, I've never noticed it. You can use DR (ablative) to be a Space Opera hero if you want.


Character creation is a process, and will probably need help from the GM for many if not most players. The GM *will* need oversight of created characters, and *will* be required to veto certain things. GURPS is not a game for GMs that are unwilling to say "no" by fiat.

I have this problem with D&D as well. You want your character concept to be "I was told by my god to kill the other PCs"... no go. He tried it three times... in three different systems... thinking it was the ruleset that said no.


Some of the rules are a bear. Even penalties for hitting a movement target with a ranged weapon are more annoying than they need to be. As mentioned above, some of the rules for things like vehicles colliding... *shiver*.

I actually really enjoy that rule... it's quick and easy (for me) and reasonably "realistic" as far as fiction would be concerned. Besides there's no reason to actually handle the damage unless the PCs are involved. I guess there's the rule for explosives that I sort of gloss over.

The moving targets thing has been dropped in with the ranged penalties... which are steep, but taking a second to aim (or not if you have the correct advantage) tend to eliminate the ranged penalties in most skirmish with melee ranges. Further, if you're running a Modern game, sifting from cover to cover to get a better shot is rather fun.


You get some weird effects due to how the math works. An "expert" swordsman (18 skill) will blow his defense roll over half the time, allowing a goon to hit him. Put him in plate mail, and his defense roll increases to the point where it's nearly impossible to hit him - and that's before damage reduction due to plate.

That's fixed. Armor no longer makes you harder to hit, 15 in skill (what I call expert) plus Combat reflexes gives you a parry of 11, 10 if it's a knife, 13 if it's a staff. 10 is 50%, 11 is like three out of five or two out of three... or around there. 13 is enough that you'll only have to worry if you're taking multiple attacks per turn (you get penalties for that).


Magic is *different* than D&D. Mages tend to be more versatile, and more easily to keep slinging magic all day - but at a cost of reduced overall power. One variant worth looking at, IMHO, is UMana.

Fixed, Fixed, and more Fixed. You can use a magic system that's almost the same, or you can use one of several dozen others... or you can use the "new" powers system (which is awesome).


The lethality of GURPS is overrated in fantasy scenarios. It's pretty easy to get knocked out, but much tougher to actually die. In fact, it's a lot more like 4e D&D in that aspect, except with fewer abilities to just bounce back into the fight.

There are now many more abilities to bounce you back into a fight. And if you're using Powers, there will be many more than that.

Something to say, 4e GURPS is strictly better than 3e GURPS.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-21, 02:10 PM
I have this problem with D&D as well. You want your character concept to be "I was told by my god to kill the other PCs"... no go. He tried it three times... in three different systems... thinking it was the ruleset that said no.

...I can see maybe thinking it was a one-time thing and giving him another chance, but why would you give him a third opportunity to be a player-killing jerk? I'd have dropped him after the second time.


In GURPS, your character stagnates. Whatever abilities your character can do when you first start are the same and only abilities you can do when the campaign ends other than maybe learned a few new skills and improved other skills. Spellcasters/psions may have learned some new more powerful spell/powers but not much.

Have you ever actually played GURPS?

For a start, a new spell costs 1 point. 1 point.

navar100
2011-06-21, 02:10 PM
In D&D over time your character improves in ability. The pacing is up to the DM but characters get better at doing stuff and new stuff, soon they are a lot more powerful than they were when the game started and the campaign isn't over yet.

In GURPS, your character stagnates. Whatever abilities your character can do when you first start are the same and only abilities you can do when the campaign ends other than maybe learned a few new skills and improved other skills. Spellcasters/psions may have learned some new more powerful spell/powers but not much.

Arbane
2011-06-21, 02:45 PM
In GURPS, your character stagnates. Whatever abilities your character can do when you first start are the same and only abilities you can do when the campaign ends other than maybe learned a few new skills and improved other skills. Spellcasters/psions may have learned some new more powerful spell/powers but not much.

Unless your character have superpowers, skills _are_ what GURPS characters do. And like spells, new spells generally only cost 1 point. Making a character who's Sir Richard Burton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Francis_Burton) (the explorer, not the actor) is totally doable. "Diplomat, leader, sailor, multilinguist, master of disguise AND an expert duellist? Yeah, you've got enough points..."

kyoryu
2011-06-21, 04:53 PM
Ranged combat is Awesome, but requires a player to be willing to sacrifice a turn here or there.

And sacrificing turns Isn't Fun. I've seen that come up a bunch of times. Glad that it's not as bad as it used to be....



There are a lot of people saying this, I've never noticed it. You can use DR (ablative) to be a Space Opera hero if you want.

When DR and dice get big enough, the random effect basically becomes greater than the damage needed to vaporize someone. It's really only a problem in higher tech (>TL7) scenarios. Even at modern tech levels it works reasonably well.

20 DR is great, and will protect fine against a 5d or 6d weapon. Until it doesn't. Then, pray for a limb hit.



I have this problem with D&D as well. You want your character concept to be "I was told by my god to kill the other PCs"... no go. He tried it three times... in three different systems... thinking it was the ruleset that said no.

3.x is also pretty open to rule abuses, I'll give you that. One of the reasons I don't care for 3.x is that it loses the advantages of 1/2/4e D&D in favor of some of the advantages of GURPS, but doesn't get as far as GURPS does in those areas, while being potentially more abusable than GURPS in other ways. I went back to D&D to get away from the build complexity issues in GURPS, and 3.x is arguably worse. And things like "you can build a non-combat character" are done better in GURPS anyway.



The moving targets thing has been dropped in with the ranged penalties... which are steep, but taking a second to aim (or not if you have the correct advantage) tend to eliminate the ranged penalties in most skirmish with melee ranges. Further, if you're running a Modern game, sifting from cover to cover to get a better shot is rather fun.

Awesome. Sounds like some good improvements.



That's fixed. Armor no longer makes you harder to hit, 15 in skill (what I call expert) plus Combat reflexes gives you a parry of 11, 10 if it's a knife, 13 if it's a staff. 10 is 50%, 11 is like three out of five or two out of three... or around there. 13 is enough that you'll only have to worry if you're taking multiple attacks per turn (you get penalties for that).

So parry is 2/3 as a baseline now instead of 1/2? Awesome.



Fixed, Fixed, and more Fixed. You can use a magic system that's almost the same, or you can use one of several dozen others... or you can use the "new" powers system (which is awesome).

I actually don't consider that fixed. While it needed some tweaks, I LIKED 3e GURPS magic, overall.



There are now many more abilities to bounce you back into a fight. And if you're using Powers, there will be many more than that.

Something to say, 4e GURPS is strictly better than 3e GURPS.

Sounds like. Now I really, really want to check it out. Sounds like they fixed a number of long-standing issues (hey, I started GURPS around 86? 87?) that drove me away from the system.

BTW, I wasn't criticizing GURPS before. I *like* GURPS. Every system has its quirks though, and just wanted to mention some of them.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-21, 06:31 PM
So parry is 2/3 as a baseline now instead of 1/2? Awesome.

No. Combat Reflexes gives a bonus to parry.

DukeofDellot
2011-06-21, 06:31 PM
And sacrificing turns Isn't Fun. I've seen that come up a bunch of times. Glad that it's not as bad as it used to be....

Thinking about it, there's a Heroic Archer [20] and Fast-Draw [usually 1] combo that allows you to load, aim, and fire in one second, allowing you to attack every turn... but at my table a full circle takes two minutes at most (after we got rid of a certain idiot) and when a person declares an "aim" maneuver, it just speeds things up.

The same stat that handles ranged combat also handles melee (and half of your dodge defense), so picking up two weapon combat [6] switching between them is a common strategy... because "I'm an archer" usually isn't as awesome as "I'm an agile combatant"... even Robin Hood used a sword.

The problem happens around Pirate games where guns take ten or more rounds to reload! So you have to either own multiple or drop it and draw a sword (with Fast-Draw, you can do that and attack in one round).


So parry is 2/3 as a baseline now instead of 1/2? Awesome.

Actually it's 1/2+3... which sounds odd, but it works. Knives give a -1, and Staves give a +2 (which makes them the incredible for otherwise vulnerable characters). Other weapons have other things... like most Axes are unbalanced, so if you attack, you can't parry until after your next turn (unless you attack again), but you can still dodge (or block if you've got a shield or cloak in your other hand).


No. Combat Reflexes gives a bonus to parry.

Edit: Oh yeah, that too.

... The thing about Magic is... I usually give the option for players to use the Standard Magic system, but I don't. Building Powers is too much fun. But the sheer oddity of the Magic system keeps players coming back for more. I guess "Fixed" isn't the right word...

...

And the "I was told by my god to kill the other players" was just an idiot that I couldn't get rid of. As it turned out, he was too stupid to understand what was wrong with his character concept... he was also too stupid to defeat the other players (even with his "Invincible Builds") because he didn't understand that there was more to fighting than yelling "I attack!". I explained everything to him countless times... but there was no helping it...

The thing is, there are stupid people in this world. Lots of them. And sometimes it takes moving out of state and changing your name to get away. Then you find more wherever you go...

Um... I think I lost my concentration somewhere...

kyoryu
2011-06-21, 07:16 PM
Actually it's 1/2+3... which sounds odd, but it works. Knives give a -1, and Staves give a +2 (which makes them the incredible for otherwise vulnerable characters).

Actually that seems a lot better than the old system where some were 1/2, and some (Staff, Rapier) were 2/3.

navar100
2011-06-21, 07:18 PM
Have you ever actually played GURPS?

For a start, a new spell costs 1 point. 1 point.

Yes, I have.

That's how I know. Played one campaign for a year. My character was exactly the same as when I started except for a few skills I could roll one to two pips better.

a_humble_lich
2011-06-21, 09:16 PM
Yes, I have.

That's how I know. Played one campaign for a year. My character was exactly the same as when I started except for a few skills I could roll one to two pips better.

The thing is that advancement in GURPS entirely depends on how many point are being given out. If you are playing 3rd edition where it is more difficult to raise attributes and gain advantages and the GM is following the recommended point rewards you will advance very slowly, especially compared to D&D where you are expected to gain vast amounts of power. I do wish the rule book gave more guidelines of how many points to award.

In general though I agree, character advancement in GURPS in generally slower than many other games. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, in 3.5 characters can change so quick that often you only have a 4 level window where you get to play the character you imagined and then you have to reinvent him.

Knaight
2011-06-23, 02:03 AM
Which system has a larger focus on combat?
D&D by a long shot, and every edition of it. GURPS is built to allow characters with combat capability and characters without combat capability, D&D isn't.

Which one is friendlier to homebrewing?
I'd argue GURPS for this one. The system can already handle basically everything, but there are obviously ideas that won't be represented. You might want to add a species or two, maybe a few pieces of technology, so on and so forth, and doing so in GURPS is easy. For instance, if I were to try and play my Atlantis 2.0 setting in GURPS, I would homebrew a lot of space opera weapons, and probably some aliens. Doing so would be easy. Were I to do so in D&D, the weaponry would be easy, but the aliens would be a pain in the rear, and I would need to refluff a lot and completely ban many classes.

What rules are streamlined and which are complex?
GURPS and D&D are very similar in certain complexities. Both are systems in which one browses long lists of stuff for what they want*. In D&D this stuff takes the form of classes, feats, spells, equipment, whatever. In GURPS, this stuff takes the form of skills, advantages, disadvantages, etc. However, D&D also has a lot of clunk that GURPS doesn't, such as the sheer quantity of modifiers flying around.

On Advancement
D&D, particularly 3.x and 4e has extremely fast advancement. Every edition is built around the concept of characters that start low -whether this means glorified commoners or fledgling "heroes" varies- and eventually gain huge amounts of power -whether this makes them powerful lords or nigh unto gods varies. GURPS isn't built around this, you can use it for something like this if you want to, but the basic assumption is that the capabilities of characters change fairly slowly.

On Options
D&D has a handful of variant rules. GURPS has a plethora of optional subsystems you can choose between, to put the focus exactly where you want it in your game, and to look at that focus through exactly the lens you want.

On Scope
GURPS can do basically everything reasonably well. It might not be quite as good as the cream of the crop of specific games, but it is always solid. Sure, Burning Wheel might better do low magic pseudo-Tolkien fantasy, and Pendragon might better do Arthurian Myths, but GURPS can do pretty much everything. If you have a high variety of settings, high concepts, and in general games that you want to play, GURPS is your go to system**.


*This is contrasted with systems in which one fundamentally makes what one wants. For instance, FATE has Aspects instead of Advantages and Disadvantages, and you make Aspects from scratch rather than browsing a list for them. Some FATE adaptations do the same thing with another concept, called Stunts, which are roughly parallel to feats. Risus uses Cliches as the fundamental building blocks of a mechanical character representation, again one makes these rather than finding them.

**Or rather, it is a go to system. There are a fair few generic systems, and if GURPS isn't your cup of tea there are others. I favor Fudge, and prefer FATE to GURPS. Other notable systems are Savage Worlds and Hero, one of which I absolutely detest, the other of which I admire but want nothing to do with.

Fridrik Bj
2011-06-23, 09:34 AM
I have played both systems a lot and for me the breakdown is as follows.

GURPS 4th does Dark Gritty Fantasy really really well. It does High Fantasy ok.

DnD 3.5 does High Fantasy really really well. It does Dark Gritty Fantasy ok.

GURPS also supports anything from My Little Pony to Hard Sci-Fi well.

DnD 3.5 does not do other support anything outside fantasy well. (There are some D20 systems that do, but they aren't DnD)

GURPS is harder to figure out and master

DnD 3.5 is easier to figure out and master

fusilier
2011-06-23, 10:39 AM
GURPS is harder to figure out and master

DnD 3.5 is easier to figure out and master

Why do you find GURPS harder to figure out and master?

From my perspective GURPS is easy, especially as a player: roll 3d6 and compare result to skill (or occasionally attribute).

Admittedly D&D isn't as complicated as it used to be, and now is mostly roll a d20 and add a modifier. Although personally I find the different ways of assessing modifiers to be somewhat irritating. A good character sheet is a huge help, but sometimes I've been given very poor ones (which in 4.0 typically gets me being yelled at by the DM for not calculating my attack modifiers correctly).

As a GM, GURPS can be a bit more complicated, but once I started GM'ing it I found it came pretty easy. The biggest problem was assigning penalties (i.e. how hard it is to do something), as most of these are made up on the fly. If I haven't been GMing for a while, sometimes it takes me a session or two to feel comfortable with setting the difficulty levels.

Just wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on why you find GURPS hard to figure out compared to D&D?

DukeofDellot
2011-06-23, 11:38 AM
It's hilarious the contradiction but I'll have to agree with the statements that:

GURPS is more detailed and complicated, but easier to play.

When it comes down to it, if you have certain ideas down, GMing for GURPS can be very easy...

Step 1: Buy some Character Templates... I purchased the Banestorm setting, not because it was an awesome setting (which it is) but because it has a good list of Character templates in the back. There's also Dungeon Fantasy, Action!, and Monster Hunters to choose from, all pretty reasonably priced. This is a lot faster than building your own templates (I'll spend upwards of a dozen hours on some of mine.)

Step 2: When making your setting, keep things simple. Usually you just need to know the setting decently enough to get things running, and often the only things that need stating out are the powers and races. If you're using the standard magic system, then only really the races need stating out... and here's where I'll disagree with DnD's designers. Try to keep the race list to under a dozen races... if there are so many that the players forget them on every turn, the races will only loose their flavor. If you find yourself around six, and you still have three or four races that you "must use" save them for another game. Having three highly diverse races can be much more powerful than having eight stereotypes plus human.

Step 3*: Figure out some basic skill level standards. Ten means the guy sorta knows what he's doing, but he's a noob. Twelve means he's got the skills to pay the bills, but he's no hero. Fifteen means he's damned good at his job and can compete in a heroic setting. Eighteen means he's the best guy around at his job. If he's a known rival of one of the PCs, give him the same skill level as the PC in the PC's main skills. Now whenever an NPC shows up and you don't have stats for him, you have his skills at least, and usually that's enough.

Step 4: Make yourself some handy NPC cards. I used to print mine out onto index cards, then I switched to full sized printer paper (with six NPCs per page). Fill these out for your major NPCs... but don't track their points. Point cost doesn't equate to threat level. Have an intended way the characters while show up, and a backup plan. If neither happen, look for an opening and go for it. Stay loose, and let the players feel like they have freedom.

Step 5*: Decide on some normal combat stats. HP is standard at 10, if the NPC doesn't have a name, why would he have the will to fight in negative HP? If you have an answer then he can, if not, he just fades out of scene (unless one of the players asks if there are survivors, then decide). 6 HP is a child or DnD Goblin-sized character, 8 HP is a weakling (beggar or long term prisoner), 12 HP is a soldier, 14 or higher is a body builder or "barbarian". Damage Reduction... I won't bore you with my DR since I highly house ruled it. Active Defenses can be figured out on the spot by knowing a skill level (see above) and deciding if the character has Combat Reflexes (soldier or barbarian should, otherwise it might be cultural). Dodge should be around 8 to 10, be careful with this stat if your players don't start using Deceptive Attacks (mine never once did).

Step 6: Show up to game night with thirty night with an hour of planning, have fun for five times as long. It's how I do it.

...I was going to stop at line two...

*These are my numbers... I use them for my games... What you find to be accurate might be very different.

fusilier
2011-06-23, 12:06 PM
Excellent point about NPC's in GURPS. You just "make them up" without paying attention to point cost. What I do is look at the skill levels of the party and create some enemies with skills/stats that seem appropriate. Again, it may take some practice before you are comfortable with those levels. I'm fairly lazy, so typically I have a couple lists of NPCs that get reused. On the other hand, the main, plot important antagonists will typically have full well rounded character sheets, although I don't pay too much attention to point values there either. There are premade monster lists available, and I've used the Fantasy Bestiary at least once. But it's still up the GM to decide if his group is capable of tackling a particular monster.

Greysect
2011-06-23, 01:49 PM
First of all, thanks for the great advice. Considering how I prefer grittiness and enjoy making my own worlds and lore from scratch, I think GURPS can give me what I need while having downsides I can easily overlook, like having few established settings to use. Anytime I want a clear and tangible rise of power and a more fantastic setting, I'll just go back to all my 3.5 books. Don't think any of my D&D friends will appreciate their only DM trying a new system, but its not like I'm abandoning D&D forever.

Now what about equipment and currency? The two things I dreaded most about having a D&D campaign was keeping track of how much gp and xp the party should have from encounters and for their level, especially as their wealth demanded the introduction of magic items when I both prefer low-magic and never enjoyed items of either passive bonuses to bland stats (a bonus to jump or climb to emulate a ninja or spider is one thing, but when everybody just gets a passive +2 ability score I die a little) or activated abilities that take away from the character's class and race.

GURPS tries something different in that wealth and status are integrated into the character, as part of the person as his or her physical or personality traits, at least as far as I can tell by what I have read. Does this mean GURPS has less of a focus on equipment?

Also, I understand there are multiple magic systems? Could you give me an overview on how these systems differ?

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-23, 01:54 PM
GURPS has a far lesser focus on equipment at low Technology Levels, where PCs don't have much money - but the more money they have, the more powerful equipment they can buy.

GURPS Magic also includes rules for magic items, most of which can be really useful.

But, on the whole, the game isn't balanced around the idea that characters will have x amount of bonuses at y point value.

(And if someone wants to have a cool magic sword, they could just spend points on an Innate Attack with the Gadget limitation.)

Fridrik Bj
2011-06-23, 03:56 PM
Just wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on why you find GURPS hard to figure out compared to D&D?

Sure
I think it may be because I started playing DnD before I started playing GURPS. So it just seams easier to "Get" DnD. But having said that I'll try to prove my point anyway.

To play GURPS is easy if you don't have to create you character. But if you have to create you own character then expect to have to do a bit of homework before getting started. In DnD it's fairly easy to make a 1st level fighter (Not so much at higher levels). You pick a race, feat, put a points in a short skill list, buy a sword and of you go. Everything a fighter can do is explained to you and already included in the package. In GURPS this is not so. Since you can spend your points on anything you want, making a good fighter requires the knowledge of what you need to buy.

As I'm writing this I'm realising that GURPS has solved this, I just didn't think of it because the solution came popular long after I started playing. GURPS has pre-made packages for character creation called Lenses.

So I stand corrected on it being hard for players.

Greysect pay attention now. When you start making characters with your party, make sure you got the Banestorm or the Fantasy book. In those are writeups of packages that players need to create character types. If you want to play a knight, buy these things for you points. They will make life much easier for you in the beginning.


Hard on the GM. I believe it's harder for the GM because there are hardly any pre-made adventures and very few pre-made monsters in GURPS. It makes the beginning GM have to work much harder to get his game going. We solved that my making most of our adversaries humanoids. No Dragons, Owlbears or beholders until you figure out how much is to much for the characters. The line between TPK and a cakewalk for the PC is a thin one in GURPS.

Having said all that I hardly ever play DnD any more but still play GURPS. So think you are doing the right thing with switching.

Regards


EDIT: Check out these two threads. The FIRST (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117181)one is someone asking a lot of GURPS rules questions and getting answers. The SECOND (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123145) is the same person talking about GURPS after he found his feat with the system.

You should also check out the S.J. Games GURPS forum (HERE (http://forums.sjgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13)). The users are mostly long time players who will give good answers to any rules question you have.

sailor_grenoble
2011-06-23, 04:30 PM
like the others said, GURPS can do anything, and it's my go to system (when thinking about adapting things to RPGs, I tend to think in GURPS).

However, a few things must be said explicitely about GURPS:

GURPS is a toolkit, or (if you want to put it that way) a meta-system: it gives you the tools to adapt the basic mechanics of the game (no random in chargen, the 4 stats, 3d6 roll under for success rolls, higher is better for damage rolls) to whatever you have in your mind. It's not intended to be used 'out of the box'. You are meant to do some work.

GURPS is targetted at people who enjoy starting from a setting or a premisce and adjust the system to fit with that grandiose vision. GURPS assumes you're already experienced with RPGs in general and with GMing in particular, and that you're a 'gear-head' (ie you like toying with the system)
(there are a few genre lines that give examples of how to modify the system to fit a genre: the Dungeon Fantasy line, the Action! line and the recently released Monster Hunters line)

The next thing is something that is apparently extremely difficult for some people to understand is that number of CP is completely unrelated to combat power.
Related to this is the fact that the vast majority of NPCs don't need point totals (the only exceptions being Allies and some Patrons, because the cost of these advantages is dependant upon the number of points of the NPC).

And finally, what is I think the best advice that can be given to someone who discover GURPS:
GURPS is like a cow. You don't try to eat it all at once. You make steaks.

Tal_Akaan
2011-06-24, 11:10 AM
I realize this is about D&D and GURPS, but you might want to take a look at Savage Worlds. I'm just getting into the system but what I've experienced is amazing. It’s a universal system, so you can use it to ANY kind of game you could possibly think of and the basic, these are the rules, book is only $10, but they have tool kits and companions for multiple genres as well as homebrew conversions for some more popular settings. I’ve seen Star Wars, Fantasy, Superheroes, Firefly, Buffy, Supernatural, the list goes on and on.

Fridrik Bj
2011-06-24, 12:08 PM
I realize this is about D&D and GURPS, but you might want to take a look at Savage Worlds. I'm just getting into the system but what I've experienced is amazing. It’s a universal system, so you can use it to ANY kind of game you could possibly think of and the basic, these are the rules, book is only $10, but they have tool kits and companions for multiple genres as well as homebrew conversions for some more popular settings. I’ve seen Star Wars, Fantasy, Superheroes, Firefly, Buffy, Supernatural, the list goes on and on.

I curios. What does Savage Worlds do well and what does it no do well. Bot in setting and in rules?

Knaight
2011-06-24, 12:25 PM
I curios. What does Savage Worlds do well and what does it no do well. Bot in setting and in rules?
Savage Worlds is another generic system, which means it lacks a specific setting. However, it operates off different assumptions than GURPS, and does have a distinct flavor. Among these things:

It makes a major distinction between important and unimportant characters in game mechanics.
Savage Worlds is built to be very pulpy, and the die mechanic allows characters to occassionally accomplish miraculous tasks.
It is a relatively simple system, though still a list based and not creation based system.
You get to use multiple kinds of dice. Some people care about this for whatever reason.
Savage Worlds is a terrible, terrible system for anything where the main characters are just normal people. GURPS works well under that assumption.
It has a miniatures based combat system grafted to it, and its harder to remove it from SW than from D&D.

Its worth taking a look at, particularly as the core book is only $10. I personally despise the system, and would pick HERO as my generic system of choice over it -and this is from someone who likes rules light systems. Everything Savage Worlds does, Fudge (http://www.fudgerpg.com/goodies/fudge-files/core/FUDGE-1995-Edition-%28PDF%29/) and FATE do better, and both of those are free.

fusilier
2011-06-24, 05:10 PM
Sure
I think it may be because I started playing DnD before I started playing GURPS. So it just seams easier to "Get" DnD. But having said that I'll try to prove my point anyway.

To play GURPS is easy if you don't have to create you character. . . .

snip


I would generally agree with this. You are correct to point out lenses make this easier (although I'm used to 3rd edition Gurps and think they called them templates). I generally don't need one, but from time to time will look at them for ideas. One of the issues with Gurps is the "defaults" and other bonuses -- this is made incredibly easier with the use of computer programs, but I still find it a good idea to have the books handy and to carefully check everything.

On the other hand, I've found making characters in D&D to be somewhat frustrating. But, I learned how to make GURPS characters, before attempting to make D&D characters.

kyoryu
2011-06-24, 05:41 PM
On the other hand, I've found making characters in D&D to be somewhat frustrating. But, I learned how to make GURPS characters, before attempting to make D&D characters.

They're very different. While GURPS is still "list-based," it's a more straightforward process - generally, you find the thing that sounds like what you want.

D&D (especially 3.x), is more convoluted in that it's more about picking things that may not sound like what you want, and combining them together in weird ways so that their bonuses stack, etc.

At least, in my experience.

Tal_Akaan
2011-06-24, 06:01 PM
I am just getting into the system so I can’t offer much about what it might do better than X or Y systems, because I have only played it a few times I can’t say that it’s magic rules are better that whatever system because I have only seen them played in a handful of situations. From what I have experienced with the system I really enjoy.

Knaight:
I am curious to know what you mean by a “list based not creation based”, as well as your opinion on why you can’t play “normal people”.

You can just PM me so we don’t get this thread too far off track, unless the OP would like to see the response.

kyoryu
2011-06-24, 06:33 PM
I am curious to know what you mean by a “list based not creation based”, as well as your opinion on why you can’t play “normal people”.

You can just PM me so we don’t get this thread too far off track, unless the OP would like to see the response.

What he means is that in GURPS, you choose from lists of options, versus just describing things, and essentially picking words out of your description.

In GURPS, if I want to make a strong swordsman, I look through a list of skills and find "Broadsword," and pick that, along with some distribution of points.

In a creation-based system, I'd just say, "My character is a strong swordsman," and give him the attributes "strong" and "swordsman," without worrying about whether or not they're in some list.

Heatwizard
2011-06-24, 06:53 PM
I am curious to know what you mean by a “list based not creation based”, as well as your opinion on why you can’t play “normal people”.

In D&D and, presumably, this, you assemble characters from existing parts; as opposed to a system where there aren't existing parts, and you're to simply generate your own out of whole cloth.

Yuki Akuma
2011-06-24, 07:30 PM
In D&D and, presumably, this, you assemble characters from existing parts; as opposed to a system where there aren't existing parts, and you're to simply generate your own out of whole cloth.

Like Risus!

I love Risus.

Knaight
2011-06-24, 11:34 PM
Knaight:
I am curious to know what you mean by a “list based not creation based”, as well as your opinion on why you can’t play “normal people”.


What he means is that in GURPS, you choose from lists of options, versus just describing things, and essentially picking words out of your description.

In GURPS, if I want to make a strong swordsman, I look through a list of skills and find "Broadsword," and pick that, along with some distribution of points.

In a creation-based system, I'd just say, "My character is a strong swordsman," and give him the attributes "strong" and "swordsman," without worrying about whether or not they're in some list.

This, though it addresses GURPS rather than Savage Worlds. As for not playing "normal people", just for being a "hero" you get a wild die most don't get, you get 3 wounds most don't get, so on and so forth. The wild die alone massively elevates the character past "normal person", the existence of mook rules for most everyone who isn't major cements the deal.

Fridrik Bj
2011-06-25, 06:38 AM
OK let’s get back on topic

Now what about equipment and currency? The two things I dreaded most about having a D&D campaign was keeping track of how much gp and xp the party should have from encounters and for their level, especially as their wealth demanded the introduction of magic items when I both prefer low-magic and never enjoyed items of either passive bonuses to bland stats (a bonus to jump or climb to emulate a ninja or spider is one thing, but when everybody just gets a passive +2 ability score I die a little) or activated abilities that take away from the character's class and race.

To play GURPS low-fantasy you don’t need any magic items at all. We have done this for a while and it works quite well. All equipment is mundane. If you want a +1 sword, then buy a fine quality sword. It even makes logical sense. Then when you have done this for a bit, drop in a single magical item into the game. Something interesting that does not directly effect combat. The most memorable thing I have had as a character was a mask that made the wearer look like an undead. It was excellent for scaring bandits and such but it didn’t actually give a +1 to anything.

Now possibly you or your players actually want magical weapons in the game. I would do this in one of two ways.

1. Magical weapons are a BIG deal. Any magical weapon will be an Excalibur type weapon and therefore a central theme of the plot of the game. Feel free to make it powerful and unique. Also make it famous and powerful NPC will want it. Are you going to say no to the king when he offers you a barony for the sword?

2. Make the PC start with a magic weapon. He want’s it He can have it. It’s a defining point of his character. Just make him pay points for it using the Gadgetear/Gadet rules. That way he may be able to bend reality as much as the wizard, but that’s ok he payed for those powers. Just take care you don’t steal or break his magic weapon without giving him something of equal value for it. He did spend points on it.


GURPS tries something different in that wealth and status are integrated into the character, as part of the person as his or her physical or personality traits, at least as far as I can tell by what I have read. Does this mean GURPS has less of a focus on equipment?

No. Equipment matters, Just not as much. Wealth allows you to start with more money but no income. Independent income allows you to not have to work for money. Both mean you are a rich dilatant. There is also a way to buy equipment with points that I cant remember what’s called. But in all cases it means that PCs with more stuff are not as good at using it. It generally equals out. A knight in shining armour will probably not be as good a fighter as the Barbarian, but the armour will keep him alive longer.


Also, I understand there are multiple magic systems? Could you give me an overview on how these systems differ?

The basic system is like this. You spend points to become a Mage. Then you Spend points on spells just like skills and when you cast a spell you get tiered (Spend Fatigue). Once you are so tiered that you can’t spend more fatigue you start spending HP to cast spells.

There are some alternatives. The alternative in the basic book allows you to buy groups of spells (Fire, Necromancy..) for points instead of single spells. I think it’s called Rituals. I haven’t used it so I’m not quite sure. There is a book called Thaumology that deals with nothing but alternative magic systems. There are some good once there. Some examples:

A system that allows you to buy Verbs and Nouns that the mage can fit together to mace magic. (Create and Fire or Control and Mind) .

A system that allows the mage to use mana from the land not himself so he does not get tiered, But there is a limit to how far he can push it. This one allows you to cast bigger spells, but less often and with the possibility of danger to the caster.

A system for sacrificing virgins on altars to cast magic and so on and so on.

Just start with the basic system, test it and then add more stuff later.

Heatwizard
2011-06-25, 06:34 PM
A system that allows you to buy Verbs and Nouns that the mage can fit together to make magic. (Create and Fire or Control and Mind).

That sounds awesome, if it works. What happens when you put Create and Mind next to each other?

Mastikator
2011-06-25, 07:12 PM
Plant a false memory into someone's mind. For example.

Fridrik Bj
2011-06-25, 07:43 PM
That sounds awesome, if it works. What happens when you put Create and Mind next to each other?

It's basically the Ars Magica magic system refitted for GURPS and yes it awesome (At least in theory). Based on what I read what happens when you put Create and Mind next to each other is whatever you and the GM can agree should happen.

bebosteveo
2011-06-27, 01:23 PM
Most of the major points have already been covered, as someone who knows both systems well here is my summary:

D&D is all about mixing and matching pre-made things. You follow pre-made classes, select pre-made feats, and fight pre-made monsters to obtain standard treasure. That's not to say that you can't get any customization or creativity out of the system, but even with templates and such you essentially are just choosing how to combine specific groups of abilities and traits into something new-ish.

On the other hand, GURPS is all about making everything yourself. Every skill, every feature, every ability needs to be designed from the ground up. Instead of searching through 4 different books to find the 1 class that is close to what you want you can simply make the class yourself with a bit of effort.

Essentially, D&D involves a lot of digging through things people already made to find the best combinations while GURPS gives you the basics up front and tells you to make exactly what you are looking for. Of course, this assumes the same high-fantasy genre. GURPS, by design, can handle just about anything else much easier than D&D.

As a side note: people say that character creation in GURPS takes a long time. Personally, with all the digging and searching you need to do for each feat in D&D, I find that it takes roughly the same amount of time in each system once you become familiar with it.

Knaight
2011-06-27, 01:28 PM
On the other hand, GURPS is all about making everything yourself. Every skill, every feature, every ability needs to be designed from the ground up. Instead of searching through 4 different books to find the 1 class that is close to what you want you can simply make the class yourself with a bit of effort.

GURPS has set attributes, a gigantic list of skills, a gigantic list of advantages and disadvantages, and a defined system for powers. Its list based, not creation based, and making everything yourself has very little to do with the system.

kyoryu
2011-06-27, 02:52 PM
On the other hand, GURPS is all about making everything yourself. Every skill, every feature, every ability needs to be designed from the ground up. Instead of searching through 4 different books to find the 1 class that is close to what you want you can simply make the class yourself with a bit of effort.

Not really. GURPS also has lists of stuff, but due to the finer granularity, it's a bit easier to squeeze homebrew in. Skills, advantages, and disadvantages, are trivial to homebrew, and they make up a significant portion of the system.


Essentially, D&D involves a lot of digging through things people already made to find the best combinations while GURPS gives you the basics up front and tells you to make exactly what you are looking for. Of course, this assumes the same high-fantasy genre. GURPS, by design, can handle just about anything else much easier than D&D.

D&D handles high fantasy better than GURPS. I'm a GURPS fan, but let's be honest here.


As a side note: people say that character creation in GURPS takes a long time. Personally, with all the digging and searching you need to do for each feat in D&D, I find that it takes roughly the same amount of time in each system once you become familiar with it.

Depends on the edition. 2nd ed? Noway. 3.x? Sure, especially if you're going for any kind of charop - a core-only, non-multiclass (except for prestige classes) character isn't too tough (which is probably how 3.x was intended in the first place, anyway). 4e? Kinda in the middle, especially if you have the builder.

Interestingly, that's kind of the core of my preference for 4e D&D over 3.x. I'd been a GURPS GM for *years*, and went back to D&D for the simplicity and high fantasy aspects. If I want to deal with build complexity/etc. I'll just run GURPS, which I feel has all of the advantages 3.x has over other versions of D&D, plus more, with about the same (or even less) cost in drawbacks. It just occupies an awkward middle space from my person POV.

And that's probably a good point as well - you can't really talk about D&D vs. GURPS without specifying the version of D&D you're talking about (GURPS has been more consistent throughout the years).

Essence_of_War
2011-06-28, 08:49 AM
First of all, thanks for the great advice. Considering how I prefer grittiness and enjoy making my own worlds and lore from scratch, I think GURPS can give me what I need while having downsides I can easily overlook, like having few established settings to use. Anytime I want a clear and tangible rise of power and a more fantastic setting, I'll just go back to all my 3.5 books. Don't think any of my D&D friends will appreciate their only DM trying a new system, but its not like I'm abandoning D&D forever.


E6 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html), a wonderful mod of 3.X, can handle both low magic and gritty fantasy settings VERY well.

Fhaolan
2011-06-28, 04:33 PM
It's basically the Ars Magica magic system refitted for GURPS and yes it awesome (At least in theory). Based on what I read what happens when you put Create and Mind next to each other is whatever you and the GM can agree should happen.

The interesting thing is a variant of this existed in GURPS before Ars Magica, in the Celtic Myth splatbook. But Ars Magica didn't steal it from GURPS. They both adapted it from modern Neo-Druid stuff.

Fridrik Bj
2011-06-29, 06:25 AM
The interesting thing is a variant of this existed in GURPS before Ars Magica, in the Celtic Myth splatbook.

What! Ars magica came out in 1987 the Celtic Myth book didn't come out until 1995. I'm confused.

Fhaolan
2011-06-29, 08:10 AM
What! Ars magica came out in 1987 the Celtic Myth book didn't come out until 1995. I'm confused.

Huh. I'm mistaken then. My Ars Magica book has a date of 1997. Weird.

Fridrik Bj
2011-06-29, 01:57 PM
Huh. I'm mistaken then. My Ars Magica book has a date of 1997. Weird.

I presume it's an edition thing. Is your book 4th edition? 1997 sounds about right for that.

Tyndmyr
2011-06-29, 02:33 PM
GURPS can do 'realistic' a bit better than D&D can. It has a fair number of rulebooks set in the modern-day/near-future.

This is pretty much D20M. You can't really compare on a meta-level like that without pulling in the rest of the D20 system.

The class/classless divide is the biggest thing, really.

kyoryu
2011-06-29, 05:24 PM
The class/classless divide is the biggest thing, really.

Not sure about that. Advancement is *way* different in GURPS, the lack of increasing hit points changes the feel of advancement pretty significantly.

I'd actually argue that 3.x uses a very, very coarse-grained system - "classes" in 3.x work more like really big skills than classes in any version prior or since.

Your point about d20M does again point out that GURPS/D&D is a pointless comparison without specifying which version.

Heatwizard
2011-06-30, 02:35 AM
It's basically the Ars Magica magic system refitted for GURPS and yes it awesome (At least in theory). Based on what I read what happens when you put Create and Mind next to each other is whatever you and the GM can agree should happen.

Oh. I was hoping for some kind of crazy mechanic.

Cybren
2011-07-01, 01:00 AM
GURPS has set attributes, a gigantic list of skills, a gigantic list of advantages and disadvantages, and a defined system for powers. Its list based, not creation based, and making everything yourself has very little to do with the system.

By that token D&D is as list based as GURPS is. You pick your feats and your skills and your race and your class and wait we're grossly oversimplifying things aren't we?


This is pretty much D20M. You can't really compare on a meta-level like that without pulling in the rest of the D20 system.

The class/classless divide is the biggest thing, really.

d20 modern was exceptionally clunky

Knaight
2011-07-01, 01:21 AM
By that token D&D is as list based as GURPS is. You pick your feats and your skills and your race and your class and wait we're grossly oversimplifying things aren't we?

D&D is list based, and I never said it wasn't. The difference between GURPS and D&D is that the GURPS list is simply accessed pretty much at will, where most of the D&D list can't be accessed without various combinations from more accessible lists.

pdellorto
2011-07-02, 10:20 AM
Greysect - you already got a lot of good answers, so I'll just echo some of the advice:

- check out Dungeon Fantasy (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/dungeonfantasy/). If you decide you like how GURPS plays, it does do fantasy very well. It doesn't do dungeon crawling in the same way rules-wise as D&D does, but it does do dungeon crawling well.

- check out the GURPS forums (http://forums.sjgames.com/). You'll get good information there, too, plus you can get questions about the system answered by actual SJG representations like the Line Editors (Kromm and RPK) and many authors check in on the forum.

- check out this podcast - it's Ninja vs. Pirate (http://ninjavspirates.libsyn.com/nv-p-6x06-gurps-with-dr-kromm-sean-punch-part-1) interviewing the GURPS Line Editor Sean Punch. He gives a good overview of how the system works.

- check out GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/) to get a basic idea of the rules system. It's playable on its own, as it's just a stripped-down version of the system. It's a free PDF.

I hope that's helpful.

Peter

Mike_G
2011-07-02, 02:38 PM
I really like GURPS in theory. I like how you can design pretty much anything for a character.

I disliked it in practice. I find the 1 second rounds too limiting, so you go around the table twice as many times to get anything done, which takes up more out of game time. Especially for casting spells, where you almost always spend at least one round very excitingly saying "I continue to cast X" before actually doing anything.

I also have some nitpicks with a few mechanics, like how the parry chance is half the attack chance with a weapon. With the magic of the bell curve, a 16 skill with sword gives a huge chance to hit, but the 8 parry gives a totally crappy chance to not be hit. Even the 2/3 skill for specific weapons gives a crappy parry chance.

So, I wanted to like it, but I really didn't.

Connington
2011-07-02, 02:47 PM
I also have some nitpicks with a few mechanics, like how the parry chance is half the attack chance with a weapon. With the magic of the bell curve, a 16 skill with sword gives a huge chance to hit, but the 8 parry gives a totally crappy chance to not be hit. Even the 2/3 skill for specific weapons gives a crappy parry chance.

Actually it's skill/2 +3. Which means your guy with skill 16 has a parry of 11, and can successfully parry a hit about 60% of the time. And a guy with such a high combat skill should really have Combat Reflexes (it's cheap!), which raises his parry to 12, letting him parry weapons about 75% of the time. If he needs a better defense than that, he can buy Enhanced Parry, use a shield, or try some tricks from Martial Arts

pdellorto
2011-07-02, 03:43 PM
Especially for casting spells, where you almost always spend at least one round very excitingly saying "I continue to cast X" before actually doing anything.

This . . .


I also have some nitpicks with a few mechanics, like how the parry chance is half the attack chance with a weapon. With the magic of the bell curve, a 16 skill with sword gives a huge chance to hit, but the 8 parry gives a totally crappy chance to not be hit. Even the 2/3 skill for specific weapons gives a crappy parry chance.

. . . and that are things that aren't true in 4e, although they were in 3e. A number of annoying things about 3e were changed in the 4th edition, and these were two of them. The OP was asking about the current edition so these are no longer a concern.

The bit upthread about ranged guys being hard to play because of "wasted" turns is still there, but there are advantages (like Heroic Archer and Gunslinger) that let you turn yourself into that cinematic action hero archer/shooter (Legolas, any Robin Hood, most "unerringly shoots him the eye on the run" archers from books). Gunslinger is in Basic Set, Heroic Archer is in GURPS Martial Arts and IIRC it's repeated in Dungeon Fantasy Adventurers 1.

Mike_G
2011-07-02, 06:45 PM
Ah. Well, those were things that needed to be fixed. Like the Parry rules where Inigo Montoya or Cyrano misses the parry half the time. And that's only if you use a rapier. If you use a broadsword to parry, the world's greatest swordsman with a skill of 18 who never misses an attack still only parries about 40% of the time. That was pretty much a deal breaker for me. The mage in the group hated having to spend three rounds charging a Fireball. It was like watching paint dry.

I haven't played 4th ed, since, as I've said, I love generating characters, but then found play to be lacking. Maybe they've fixed the worst offenders, but I don't think my group will have any desire to revisit the game.

pdellorto
2011-07-02, 08:08 PM
Maybe they've fixed the worst offenders, but I don't think my group will have any desire to revisit the game.

That's fine. I've been so scarred by bad play of early editions of some games I wouldn't take money to try another session of the newer editions. It happens to everyone.

But I just wanted to make sure the OP knew that what bothered you about the game system were issues in 3e that are long gone in 4e, so they won't come up in the system he's thinking of looking at.

Fera Tian
2011-07-02, 10:35 PM
In D&D over time your character improves in ability. The pacing is up to the DM but characters get better at doing stuff and new stuff, soon they are a lot more powerful than they were when the game started and the campaign isn't over yet.

In GURPS, your character stagnates. Whatever abilities your character can do when you first start are the same and only abilities you can do when the campaign ends other than maybe learned a few new skills and improved other skills. Spellcasters/psions may have learned some new more powerful spell/powers but not much.

WoW vs Story

Knaight
2011-07-03, 02:18 AM
WoW vs Story

Because obviously there are no real stories in which the protagonists grow over time in capability as well as changing in personality. That would be absurd.

Connington
2011-07-03, 04:36 AM
Because obviously there are no real stories in which the protagonists grow over time in capability as well as changing in personality. That would be absurd.

Yeah, Fera Tin phrased it too glibly, but there is a valid point in there.

DnD has a convention, borrowed from heroic fantasy, that heroes become much more powerful and more skilled over the course of a campaign. To enforce this, it uses a scheme of relatively quick jumps in power at a pre-determined speed. The way it's set up gives a Level 1 to 20 campaign has a certain mystique.

GURPS doesn't have that built in convention, or the system to go with it. The designers seem to assume you'll hand out a couple of points every session, and more after completing major story goals. It's a more even progression, but slower, and with no goal in mind. Of course, you can always give the players big sudden power-ups if that suits the setting or campaign. In a James Bond-style campaign, the PCs might really be more or less static (because they're already as awesome as it gets), and use the points they gain in play to buy successes.

It's certainly not "WoW vs Story", but it's not like GURPS only does static characters either.

pdellorto
2011-07-03, 08:16 AM
I think a good way to state the difference in progression is:

D&D . . .

uses a scheme of relatively quick jumps in power at a pre-determined speed.

GURPS doesn't enforce any progression scheme or speed. It's entirely up to the GM, and point progression isn't tied to X number of adventures or Y amount of monsters slain (although you can tie XP to kills, with an optional rule in Dungeon Fantasy). It's entirely up to the GM how progression works. D&D has progression more-or-less on rails. That's absolutely fine if you want to go where it's going - start at level 1 and play until level 20, say. GURPS doesn't hard-code that into the system. You can progress, but it supports games from static or near-static all the way up to constant and dramatic increases in power.

It's "figured example with background and play assumptions" vs. "toolkit." D&D is the figured example, with everything worked out. You can deviate but it'll take some work. GURPS is the toolkit, with various workout out examples. Out of the box you'll need to do more work. Both are good, depending on what you need or want to do.

Knaight
2011-07-03, 01:01 PM
GURPS doesn't have that built in convention, or the system to go with it. The designers seem to assume you'll hand out a couple of points every session, and more after completing major story goals. It's a more even progression, but slower, and with no goal in mind. Of course, you can always give the players big sudden power-ups if that suits the setting or campaign. In a James Bond-style campaign, the PCs might really be more or less static (because they're already as awesome as it gets), and use the points they gain in play to buy successes.

It's certainly not "WoW vs Story", but it's not like GURPS only does static characters either.

I agree with this entirely. My point was merely that "WoW vs Story" is a completely absurd portrayal, and that there are stories which require characters to develop overtime. GURPS isn't static, and the rate of development is extremely easy to tweak in any case. GURPS style advancement is more versatile and allows for more stories, D&D still allows for stories, but has a limited range. This lines up with the systems in general, and has been beat to death over the point of this thread, as it is among the most obvious differences.