question about the opness of the feral template

[atsumouri]

ok i have a question or 2 about the feral template(savage species page 115-116). First off as it changes hit dice to d10's was there ever any errata about this? i have seen templates like the lych say all current and future hit dice become d10's but this one just says hi dice become d10's. if its all current and future that makes it great for a rogue or other class that's hd are below d10's but loosing a possible 2 hit points from a a barbs d12 is a sad loss tho. also it has 2 tables stating you gain certain qualities based on your hit dice. 1-3 hd improved grab 4-7 pounce 8-11 rake 12+ rend as well as 1-3 hd 60 foot dark vision and fast healing 2 4-7 60 dark vision fast healing 3 8-11 90 ft dark vision fast healing 4 12+ 120 ft dark vision fast healing 5. that being said it is applied when you take the template but say i take the template with 4hd i'd have pounce and improved grab as well as 60 foot dark vision 60 and fast healing 3. Now when i get to 8 hit die do i gain 90 foot dark vision and fast healing 4 as well as rake? if so that seems fairly powerful for just a la1 template.

[Kyouhen]

I read the feral template as basing it's bonuses on what you are when you take it. So all current HD turn into d10's, which the future ones stay whatever they would be. And you only get benefits based on your HD when you take it.

[atsumouri]

that's what i thought as well but my friend thinks its the way posted above. so i figured i'd ask everyone here as i plan on taking the template on my new char today. i'd say its slightly more balanced if its just what you get when u take it. i was wishing for some errata on it but haven't found any

[Divide by Zero]

Every time I worry about Feral being overpowered, I just open my PHB and look at the Druid for a while.

[Urpriest]

Hit dice become d10s because the character is a monstrous humanoid. Unless a template specifies otherwise (Vampire, for example), this only refers to racial hit dice. So racial HD are d10s.

The benefits from HD scale with your HD, like all templates. Templates aren't applied "when you take them", they're constant features of your character. However, if you read the descriptions you'd see that the special attacks (rake, pounce, etc.) are based on your monstrous hit dice, so those only scale based on racial hit dice. The special qualities scale with normal hit dice though.

[atsumouri]

Hit dice become d10s because the character is a monstrous humanoid. Unless a template specifies otherwise (Vampire, for example), this only refers to racial hit dice. So racial HD are d10s.

The benefits from HD scale with your HD, like all templates. Templates aren't applied "when you take them", they're constant features of your character. However, if you read the descriptions you'd see that the special attacks (rake, pounce, etc.) are based on your monstrous hit dice, so those only scale based on racial hit dice. The special qualities scale with normal hit dice though.

thank you for clarifying that for me Urpriest

[Te'Shen]

Hit dice become d10s because the character is a monstrous humanoid. Unless a template specifies otherwise (Vampire, for example), this only refers to racial hit dice. So racial HD are d10s.

The benefits from HD scale with your HD, like all templates. Templates aren't applied "when you take them", they're constant features of your character. However, if you read the descriptions you'd see that the special attacks (rake, pounce, etc.) are based on your monstrous hit dice, so those only scale based on racial hit dice. The special qualities scale with normal hit dice though.


Humanoids and Class Levels
Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.
Your class hit dice become your racial hit die, though... in specific cases.

[Divide by Zero]

Your class hit dice become your racial hit die, though... in specific cases.

No, they do not become racial hit dice. The racial hit die is replaced. Significant difference.

[Te'Shen]

No, they do not become racial hit dice. The racial hit die is replaced. Significant difference.
Not particularly. If your class hit dice replace racial hit die, it takes over the function.

Replace. Verb.
to assume the former role, position, or function of; substitute for (a person or thing): Example: Electricity has replaced gas in lighting.

If I replace one car with another, it's still my method of transportation.
If I replace my job with another, it's still my source of income.

If a character replaces his racial hit die with his class hit die, and it no longer counts, several templates don't actually function then with 1 or less hd creatures.

[Siosilvar]

Not particularly. If your class hit dice replace racial hit die, it takes over the function.

Replace. Verb.
to assume the former role, position, or function of; substitute for (a person or thing): Example: Electricity has replaced gas in lighting.

If I replace one car with another, it's still my method of transportation.
If I replace my job with another, it's still my source of income.

If a character replaces his racial hit die with his class hit die, and it no longer counts, several templates don't actually function then with 1 or less hd creatures.

English grammar != D&D rule terms. See "always alignment" for one example among many.

A creature with 1 or fewer racial hit dice doesn't get a racial hit die at all if it has a class level.

If I replace my racial hit die with a class hit die, it's still my source of hit points, abilities, feats, and skills. It isn't still a racial hit die.

[Te'Shen]

. . . A creature with 1 or fewer racial hit dice doesn't get a racial hit die at all if it has a class level. . . .

I know. I am the one who quoted that bit of RAW.

Part of my point actually. If the class die doesn't count when it replaces the racial die, then the character actually loses More. A character doesn't even then qualify on the 1-3 or whatever on a template when it lists abilities... Follow me? A feral human would not have Improved Grab... some templates' abilities are just about solely based on racial 'levels'.

But the rules specifically say that 1 or less hit die creatures replace their racial hit die with class hit die. Therefore, I don't specifically see a problem of letting it happen, since the rules say this is what happens.

Anything that was previously based on the racial hit die must now be based on the class hit die, because that is now all the creature has to base anything on.


. . . The benefits from HD scale with your HD, like all templates. Templates aren't applied "when you take them", they're constant features of your character. However, if you read the descriptions you'd see that the special attacks (rake, pounce, etc.) are based on your monstrous hit dice, so those only scale based on racial hit dice. The special qualities scale with normal hit dice though.
And that is the most... strict reading of RAW I've seen in a bit. Special attacks and special qualities read just about the same under that template... it keeps saying hit dice, except for one spot.

If one is going to argue that english does not equal rule terms, as Siosilvar has, stating that one can get some of a scaling template based on class dice but other parts on monstrous dice (even though they read so closely), so it doesn't qualify... that just rubs me the wrong way. I see where you get that, and I will agree that your reading of the RAW there is accurate. I just don't like it.

It's so close that if I were to interpret, I'd say the designers meant for both or neither to scale.

I would say, though, because of the rule in the srd/monster manual, creatures with 1 hit die or less have their hit die overwritten by their class, and in those specific circumstances, the class level counts as racial levels for all intents and purposes.

[Divide by Zero]

Example: Electricity has replaced gas in lighting.

If electricity replaces gas, it does not necessarily follow that electricity is gas. Likewise, if your class HD replaces your racial HD, it does not mean that the class HD is a racial HD. It just means you don't have any racial HD.