Assassins Creed style good assassin build help

[jhardin87]

Im trying to make a good aligned 8th level rogue/assasin modled after Ezio Auditore from Assassins Creed 2/brotherhood for a campaign mixing d&d 3.5 and pathfinder rules, ( basically the dm lets us draw whatever works best from both sources). I'm looking for advice on general build, (feats, weapon loadout, etc.) I would especially love help working out how to make the hidden blade fit in.

[Titanium Fox]

I... did this at one point. Had him working about right by 7th level. I'll see if I can find the character sheet for you.

[jhardin87]

that would be awesome!! thankyou!! did you have any luck with the hidden blade?

[Amnestic]

that would be awesome!! thankyou!! did you have any luck with the hidden blade?

Could try refluffing the Gnome Quickrazor with a healthy dose of Iaijutsu Focus and sneak attack damage.

[jhardin87]

ok i feel the need to point out that while i have a pretty good grasp of the basics of the game i dont have access to too many sourcebooks and i,m not familliar with very many prestige classes or the anacronyms. i'm not familiar with the quickrazor thingy. and i kinda want to do either human or pathfinder half elf not gnome. ezio was a bit of a pimp and i intend to work his "charm" into the character.

[Timeless Error]

ok i feel the need to point out that while i have a pretty good grasp of the basics of the game i dont have access to too many sourcebooks and i,m not familliar with very many prestige classes or the anacronyms. i'm not familiar with the quickrazor thingy. and i kinda want to do either human or pathfinder half elf not gnome. ezio was a bit of a pimp and i intend to work his "charm" into the character.

Which sourcebooks do you have? Most of the builds on this site involve at least one supplemental book, if not more.

Also, you don't need to be a gnome to use a gnome quickrazor.

[jhardin87]

but you do make a good point. is there anything that,ll make it easier for me to get off a sneak attack? i normally play front line fighters and barbarians. this is my first rogue so any strategy advice would be good too.

[jhardin87]

i have all the basics and my dm has several others. if you give me the names i can ask him if he has it.

[Yora]

That would be a pretty long list. About 70-something I would guess. It's really easier to start with what you have.

[Titanium Fox]

I don't have the character sheet online, it's back at my apartment somewhere. I'll post in here when I find it.

[jhardin87]

to be honest i dont know what all he has. i'm pretty sure he has alot of forgotten realms stuff and a huge backlog of dragon magazines and a ton of other sourcebooks from 3.5 to ad&d. he has a whole room dedicated to sourcebooks and miniatures lol

[Divide by Zero]

If you have it, Complete Scoundrel has rules for hidden weapons. That'd be a good place to start.

[jhardin87]

well i found where i can get the pdf for almost any sourcebook i want cheap. thank god i have some disposable funds lol.

[Major]

Google? Oh you said cheap not free. Nevermind

Complete Scoundrel specifically has a hidden wrist blade.

[Z3ro]

Google? Oh you said cheap not free. Nevermind

Complete Scoundrel specifically has a hidden wrist blade.

Yeah, but the CS one sucks. Just refluff quickrazor, works much better for the concept.

[Major]

Eh refluffing the Gnomish Quickrazor to fit a wrist blade seems a bit extreme...Hell if he can get it go ahead, but it seems to stretch it.

[Big Fau]

Factotum (Dungeonscape) or Warblade (Book of Nine Swords) all work for this idea, but replicating Eagle Vision is a bit harder. Hidden Talent for Detect Hostile Intent (Expanded Psionics Handbook) could work, but with very limited uses/day and a short duration it isn't exactly good for the job (and it leaves out Eagle Vision's ability to detect hidden things like Subject 16's glyphs).

[jhardin87]

you bring up a good point, i hadnt even considered eagle vision. hmm maybe homebrew some goggles that give a bonus to spot and sense motive, with a little something to help him see in smoke or obscuring mist. i want it to remain ballanced though so magical darkness should probably still work against them

[JaronK]

A Gnomish Quickrazor IS a hidden wrist blade. Seriously, that's exactly what it is. It hides on your wrist and you whip it out to attack people, then whip it back into your sleeve to hide it.

So, since you wanted to be Human, Human Factotum with EWP: Quickrazor, Darkstalker, and Master of Poisons using Iaijutsu Focus for damage should work great.

JaronK

[An Enemy Spy]

Im trying to make a good aligned 8th level rogue/assasin modled after Ezio Auditore from Assassins Creed 2/brotherhood for a campaign mixing d&d 3.5 and pathfinder rules, ( basically the dm lets us draw whatever works best from both sources). I'm looking for advice on general build, (feats, weapon loadout, etc.) I would especially love help working out how to make the hidden blade fit in.

Don't assassins have to be evil?

[Amnestic]

Might want to look into your wrist-mounted pistol too, and smoke bombs (Dust Eggshell Grenades maybe?)


Don't assassins have to be evil?

Technically yes, but it's an utterly ridiculous restriction in my opinion. You could argue that they shouldn't be Good, but Neutral Assassins are more than possible.

[Big Fau]

Don't assassins have to be evil?

Only if they take levels in that worthless class. Ezio is almost certainly CN, if not CG or NG.

[Kaeso]

Personally I think the Swordsage is best fit for the job. Shadow hand has a plethora of stealth-related skills, but they're decent enough in an open duel, just like Ezio. They're also limited to light armor, just like Ezio. They can use Assassins stance to deliver some sneak attack damage (which is pretty meh, but it's halfway decent with the feat Craven I guess) and, most importantly, the Spider dance stance let's them spiderwalk, which should replicate Ezio's parkour.

:smallconfused: It surprised me nobody discussed his parkour skills yet, it has to be one of the most notable things in the AC series. If you take the feat Able Learner and combine it with a Gnomish Quickrazor (like JaronK suggested), you should be able to get some decent iajutsu focus damage. You won't be as good as a factotum in that field, but IMHO it's closer to Ezio than a full factotum.

[Amnestic]

P They're also limited to light armor, just like Ezio.

Ezio gets an array of metallic armour far beyond the Chain Shirts we see in Light Armour. The Armour of Brutus (http://images.wikia.com/assassinscreed/images/b/b5/Armor_Of_Brutus_v.png) especially. I'd wager he's at least proficient in Medium armour. Considering how able he is when he's disguised in city guard heavy armour, I'd almost say he's proficient in that too.

Well, either that or the designers were too lazy to make him perform worse for those missions :smalltongue:

[Kaeso]

Ezio gets an array of metallic armour far beyond the Chain Shirts we see in Light Armour. The Armour of Brutus (http://images.wikia.com/assassinscreed/images/b/b5/Armor_Of_Brutus_v.png) especially. I'd wager he's at least proficient in Medium armour. Considering how able he is when he's disguised in city guard heavy armour, I'd almost say he's proficient in that too.

Well, either that or the designers were too lazy to make him perform worse for those missions :smalltongue:

Oh, good point (I haven't played Brotherhood yet but I'm planning to get my hands on it one of these days, especially now that Revelations is creeping closer to its release date).

Anyway, I still believe the swordsage is the best fit. Medium Armor Proficiency is merely a single feat away ;) (it'd make your wis to AC useless, but look at it fromt he bright side: you no longer need any WIS, decreasing your MAD).

Also, I doubt the city guards (I assume you're referring to the near-end of AC II, where he disguises himself as one of them) wear what could be considered heavy armor. It's nowhere near as extensive as full plate (IMHO the brutes wear full plate though, but Ezio doesn't disguise himself as one of those). Also, you can wear a mythral breastplate and still get wis to AC.

[JaronK]

I'd go with Factotum 6/Unarmed Swordsage 2. That should (I believe) give you the ability to run on walls in addition to plenty of Iaijutsu Focus damage. And with two more levels of Factotum you'd be extra awesome.

JaronK

[Kaeso]

I'd go with Factotum 6/Unarmed Swordsage 2. That should (I believe) give you the ability to run on walls in addition to plenty of Iaijutsu Focus damage. And with two more levels of Factotum you'd be extra awesome.

JaronK

What Ezio-like skills do 6 levels of Factotum give you that swordsage can't give you?

[JaronK]

He'd still have Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, and I feel Ezio ought to have such bonus damage against flat footed opponents. It also means that in two levels he can do two martial strikes in a round, for even better front loaded assassination damage. Even at this level, it means he can blow a bunch of Inspiration on either Int to damage or d6s of damage when he takes out a mark in one hit. Plus, if you enter Swordsage with Factotum 6, you start at IL 4 which means you start by selecting 2nd level maneuvers and at your next level you get 3rd level maneuvers.

JaronK

[Amnestic]

What Ezio-like skills do 6 levels of Factotum give you that swordsage can't give you?

Bluff and Diplomacy. Ezio is quite the smooth talker after all.

[mykelyk]

Armor of Brutus is a mitrhil breastplate, keep that wis.

[Big Fau]

Armor of Brutus is a mitrhil breastplate, keep that wis.

That fits the Armor of Altiar from the second game (which is stated to be made of an unknown metal), but Brutus' armor is clearly hide-based.

[jhardin87]

well i've been playing with it and i was lookin at rogue4/swordsage4, and remember this is incorporating dnd3.5 AND pathfinder. i feel the rogue gives him access to all the skills he needs and my dm will let me drop 2 unused class skill to make a crossclass skill into a class skill so thatll give me iajutsu focus right there. the swordsage shadow hand skills give me access to lots of tricks that frontload damage against flatfooted enemies not to mention the dance of the spider which helps with the parkour and several other tricks that'll help catch foes flatfooted for sneakattack dammage. all the skill tricks from complete scoundrel give me more noncombat "parkour" options plus some more tricks to catch foes flatfooted. and im not trying to completely recreate ezio just make an ezio like character. but i would really like to try to figure out the eagle vision though. any thoughts on that?

[Yora]

I recommend a dip into Thief Acrobat. It allows you to Climb and Balance at double normal speed without provoking AoOs.

[Kaeso]

I guess eagle vision is the most difficult part of this build....
The only thing that comes to mind is detect evil, but that requires you to be a paladin, which wouldn't fit your build at all.

[Big Fau]

I guess eagle vision is the most difficult part of this build....
The only thing that comes to mind is detect evil, but that requires you to be a paladin, which wouldn't fit your build at all.

We just need to work Detect Hostile Intent onto the build.

[Kaeso]

We just need to work Detect Hostile Intent onto the build.

Detect hostile intent? Is that psionic or something?

[Big Fau]

Detect hostile intent? Is that psionic or something?

Yeah. Works perfectly for revealing guards the way Ezio does (it has trouble identifying non-hostiles though).

[jhardin87]

I recommend a dip into Thief Acrobat. It allows you to Climb and Balance at double normal speed without provoking AoOs.

whats thief acrobat from?

[Big Fau]

whats thief acrobat from?

CAdv. Not good for all of the levels, but a dip is decent.

[jhardin87]

CAdv. Not good for all of the levels, but a dip is decent.

i see what you mean. 1, maybe 2 levels would be excelent. my dm is really fond of using dirty tricks like triping and things like that to make it hard for the pc's. he LOVES undead because of their crit and sneakattack immunity which is why i took disruptive attack from phb2 instead of uncanny dodge

[faceroll]

Psionics has some neat stuff in it that can make any character perform their roll better, but I am not sure how magical you want the character to be. There's a first level power that lets you get +10 to your hide checks, for instance.

[jhardin87]

Psionics has some neat stuff in it that can make any character perform their roll better, but I am not sure how magical you want the character to be. There's a first level power that lets you get +10 to your hide checks, for instance.

no i dont really want him to be a magic user and unfortunately my dm doesnt like psionics:smallfrown:

[faceroll]

no i dont really want him to be a magic user and unfortunately my dm doesnt like psionics:smallfrown:

Yeah, I didn't think you did.

If you pick up an item familiar (a feat from unearthed arcana), you can get a huge bonus to your spot checks. Just make your item familiar a telescope or goggles.

Rules are here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm

It can also be used quite cheesily, so be careful, talk with the DM, etc.

[Doktor Per]

We just need to work Detect Hostile Intent onto the build.

It's called sense motive (you can use it to assess the situation, Eagle Vision is a stylized version to be able to represent his heightened awareness in a graphical manner)

On Enzio, I pretty much see him as a Rogue because he can always and very consistently do things which require tons of skills, so drawing from a pool of resources (that isn't money) seems against type.

You need the feat Roof-walker or whatever it was called (was it in Cityscape?) If only for Death From Above (your falling damage gets capped, but not your target's) the BEST feat? No, but thematically fitting.

Feinting (or countering) you also need that. I'm not great on ToB, but I know Swordsage has some moves that will help with it, but some of those abilities might be a bit too ~extraordinary~ for your tastes. I can sympathize. Invisible Blade (CW) could give you some of that feinting sweetness, full BA and Sneak Attack. The trade-off is that it's dagger only. (But then again, isn't Enzio MOST lethal with a short blade?)

If the world is mostly human, consider a dip in Ranger for a free +2 on almost everything against your marks. You can pick up Urban Tracking in the process.

I don't know how appropriate Factotum would be, since Enzio is a videogame protagonist, with all of the intellectual pitfalls that follow. But I've never actually read the mechanics behind it.

[Optimator]

Only if they take levels in that worthless class. Ezio is almost certainly CN, if not CG or NG.
Worthless? Hardly.


Technically yes, but it's an utterly ridiculous restriction in my opinion. You could argue that they shouldn't be Good, but Neutral Assassins are more than possible.

I dunno, killing for money is pretty clearly Evil, in D&D terms. In real life there could be gray areas but if you're an Assassin and run into an astral deva or planetar they may not buy the whole "My profession is murder but I'm not actually Evil" spiel.

[Kaeso]

I dunno, killing for money is pretty clearly Evil, in D&D terms. In real life there could be gray areas but if you're an Assassin and run into an astral deva or planetar they may not buy the whole "My profession is murder but I'm not actually Evil" spiel.

And what if you don't murder for the sake of gathering money, but to stop an evil organization from ruling the world with an iron fist? What if you specifically target the higherups of said organization, trying to leave the nameless mooks out of it as much as possible? That makes you a lot less Evil, and actually pretty Good.

[Amnestic]

I dunno, killing for money is pretty clearly Evil, in D&D terms. In real life there could be gray areas but if you're an Assassin and run into an astral deva or planetar they may not buy the whole "My profession is murder but I'm not actually Evil" spiel.

Assassin has a number of definitions; "killer for hire" is just one of them. Generally they're more associated with people who target prominent public figures (politicians/royalty especially) - money may be an object, or it may not be.

Since it's obviously relevant to the thread: Ezio (and the Assassin's Brotherhood in general) do not kill for profit. They fight against a Lawful Evil organisation. Yes, they murder, but they do so for the greater good and target Evil figures with their killings. There's certainly more layers to them than just a blanket Evil.

Which, by the way, is another failing of the Assassin PrC's requirements: The "must murder someone to join an Assassin's guild" thing. That right there? That's just silly.

[Kaeso]

Which, by the way, is another failing of the Assassin PrC's requirements: The "must murder someone to join an Assassin's guild" thing. That right there? That's just silly.

I agree, but if I'm correct there's also a good variant of the Assassin PrC on the web (if I'm correct it's called the avenger).

[Amnestic]

I agree, but if I'm correct there's also a good variant of the Assassin PrC on the web (if I'm correct it's called the avenger).

Which was an April Fool's joke, right down to the kinda poorly recoloured picture (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a). True, it's technically there, but it's little more than a refluff. Hell, it's worse than a homebrew refluff since his spell list still contains Magic Circle Against Good - they didn't bother to change it to Against Chaotic/Evil.

[Psyren]

Which was an April Fool's joke, right down to the kinda poorly recoloured picture (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a). True, it's technically there, but it's little more than a refluff. Hell, it's worse than a homebrew refluff since his spell list still contains Magic Circle Against Good - they didn't bother to change it to Against Chaotic/Evil.

Meh, they've had official PrCs that were even bigger jokes. I'd allow it.

(lolStormDisciple)

[Kaeso]

Which was an April Fool's joke, right down to the kinda poorly recoloured picture (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a). True, it's technically there, but it's little more than a refluff. Hell, it's worse than a homebrew refluff since his spell list still contains Magic Circle Against Good - they didn't bother to change it to Against Chaotic/Evil.

Don't forget to stop at level 7 for 21 4th level spells known ;)
(Seriously WotC? It's a web enhancement! I could understand it in a printed book but this should be easy to correct).

[Cerlis]

could take a miriad of luck feats and reflavor it as Heightened skill. his instincts helping him jump out of the way even when suprised, or get in a hit on a well armored opponent seems right.

Also isnt there a feat that allows you to trip someone if they attack and miss or is that only a charge? if not that would make him seem Countery without needing ToB.

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Either way, i dont think you should focus on every tiny aspect of the game that he did. Like that Armor thing...that was one part of one level right? so its not really "his thing" even if he is awesome enough to master it. But yes i think i'd a High Sneak attack build that focuses on skills and skill tricks (high acrobatic and diplomacy/trickery skills; might see if the party can survive with only half assed Anti trapper rogue). The skill tricks are all the fun stuff that happens in the game, and with feats like ....er there is one thats +5 skill points (though that may be weak) you could get alot and not kill your total skill points. I saw Sneak attack because you only need feats in a sneak attack build to increase the number of sneak attacks i believe so you could focus on your skills and tricks without taking to much from damage. Also there is a Enchant i believe in comp adven (or somewhere ) that increases sneak attack dmg and there is that stance that does.

Oh, i just thought of something. it might be a bad idea. bu ti remembered how ROgues usually go Dex and Int, well so do swashbucklers. and there is the feat where swash and rogue stack for sneak attack and they get the Int to dmg and weapon finess d10 HD ok skills and good BAB. And i believe the swash thing that stacks with rogue lvls is Grace. YOu can switch out Grace for the ACF Arcane stunt. usable 3 times per day, (leveling gives you more options, rather than more uses so you can even just pick one you want and stop lvling swash). the stunts basically mimick acrobat moves. Feather fall. Expedious retreat, Jump. Only for one turn, but i think since its usable 3 times per day (many feats give a 1/day, and thats the best it ever gets) thats 3 situations in which "Hey i need to do something HEROIC!" and then you jump 40 feet or jump off a 100 foot tall building without hurting yourself, or chase down a horse. it would be great.


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Other ideas are there is a PrC in BoED that is a Good Assassin who gains sneak attack and death effect only useable on evil people (and if you use it on a non evil person it simply doesnt work, so you can actually opt to not use your rogue sneak attack and try using your alternate sneak attack if you rnot 100% sure about someone. Just dont get in the habit of hitting people to see if they are evil , or you'd loose your exaltedness.

[jhardin87]

well swordsage gives me access to alot of abilities that will mimic if not completely recreate ezios abilities; and you're right, im not trying to make an ezio clone, just something very similar. shadow hand school gives access to alot of abilities that accomplish that and the rest i casn get from the skill tricks in complete scoundrel. i think ive almost got my build finished but i cant find anything for a throwing knife other than the shuriken. the dagger is ok but im lookin for something with maybe a 20 ft range. and id love to find some sort of smoke bomb for quick getaways.

[Kaeso]

well swordsage gives me access to alot of abilities that will mimic if not completely recreate ezios abilities; and you're right, im not trying to make an ezio clone, just something very similar. shadow hand school gives access to alot of abilities that accomplish that and the rest i casn get from the skill tricks in complete scoundrel. i think ive almost got my build finished but i cant find anything for a throwing knife other than the shuriken. the dagger is ok but im lookin for something with maybe a 20 ft range. and id love to find some sort of smoke bomb for quick getaways.

The dart has a 50 ft. range and is a simple weapon. You can just refluff it as throwing daggers.
The DMG has smoke bombs in the section 'renaissance weapons'.

[jhardin87]

The dart has a 50 ft. range and is a simple weapon. You can just refluff it as throwing daggers.
The DMG has smoke bombs in the section 'renaissance weapons'.

im not sure that smokebomb would work for my purposes since its a move action to light and it doesnt start smoking for 2 rounds. i was thinking about the smoke bombs from the game that he just threw down and was immediately surrounded by a cloud of smoke. is there anything alchemical that will accomplish that?

[Kaeso]

im not sure that smokebomb would work for my purposes since its a move action to light and it doesnt start smoking for 2 rounds. i was thinking about the smoke bombs from the game that he just threw down and was immediately surrounded by a cloud of smoke. is there anything alchemical that will accomplish that?

I think there's a magic item called the eversmoking bottle that basically casts "fog cloud" if you use it.

EDIT: Yep, it's right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#eversmokingBottle), and the effect is even better than fog cloud. True, it's a magic bottle and not a collection of smoke bombs, but that's a minor detail I suppose. The item doesn't state if you need a move or swift action to unstop the bottle, so you'll have to work that out with your DM.

[Cerlis]

Wonder if anyone here has oriental adventures. I believe there is Ninja smoke bombs in there. Eggshells with semicombustable powder in em or something.

Also i'd pour over the back end of any alternate sourcebooksyou guys have. Complete warrior/adventure, and the races books usually have a wide assortment of weird weapons,So there are probably one or two good throwing ones in there. ( I think there is a chakram somewhere lol).

depending on your DM you might be able to get him to take away your proficiency with certian weapons (exotic weapons you will never want to use) to opt for profieciency with a weapon you like. (screw kukris, yay Xena!)