Prerequisites... why?

[Typewriter]

So, as 3.5 continued along it's merry path there became more and more ways to do things that previously were not doable before. They started circumvening their own rules. Variant classes would give access to feats even without the prerequisites, class features would allow you to substitute "X" for "Y", and so on and so forth.

Well, now I play Pathfinder, and they have something called Archetypes in their last couple books which are basically variants to the base classes.

It's just beginning to feel a bit pointless is where I'm going with this.

Seriously, if Combat Expertise requirse INT 13, then why is it so easy to get around that? I can take a level of monk and get it, or I'm sure there's another way to do so even. Why do I have to take three levels of a fighter variant to be able to use a polearm in one hand, when it's generally going to be more OP to simply use it two-handed?

I felt like in 3.5 it was possible to do just about anything. Regardless of stats, someone could figure out a way to take any feat or ability through ingenius use of multi-classing, templates, and cheese.

And now Pathfinder is getting there.

So what's the point of Combat Expertise having a INT requirement if all it does is inconvenience people? If I want it I can find a way to get it. Why is that there?

Why does Ranger get two weapon fighting without a high enough DEX, but nobody else does?

Would it really be that OP for a level One 8 INT fighter to be able to take Improved Trip without meeting the prerequisites for Combat Expertise?

tl;dr?

If a prerequisite can be bypassed by jumping through hoops, why bother having it in the first place? Does this drive anyone else insane? Would there be any downsides to removing 'Stat requirement XYZ' as prerequisite to any and all feats?

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't really see the problem.

Are you arguing that just because a class can do something, everyone should be able to do it?

Do you ever argue that about other class features?

Classes get special features which let them do things other classes can't do. The entire concept of a class-based system hinges on this. If this were not the case, you wouldn't be using a class-based system.

[Typewriter]

I don't really see the problem.

Are you arguing that just because a class can do something, everyone should be able to do it?

Do you ever argue that about other class features?

Classes get special features which let them do things other classes can't do. The entire concept of a class-based system hinges on this. If this were not the case, you wouldn't be using a class-based system.

For the most part my complaint is stat based requirements, and that as a system ages more and more ways to bypass those requirements come into play.

In other words, you can do anything, but you have to jump through hoops to do so.

[Divide by Zero]

I'm not sure what you'd rather do. Do you want every character to have every ability? It's all about working with limited resources.

Take your Combat Expertise example. To get it, you'll need to spend some of your PB (or a 13+ roll) on Int, and use a feat. If you want to use the resources you spent on those prerequisites for something else, then you have to spend resources elsewhere, such as a level in monk, or a level in another class and trading one of its features for an ACF, or whatever. You can only make so many trade-offs, and getting rid of the normal prerequisites makes that much less significant. Managing those character resources is part of the game, just like managing wealth, or managing your XP in a skill-based system.

[Yuki Akuma]

For the most part my complaint is stat based requirements, and that as a system ages more and more ways to bypass those requirements come into play.

In other words, you can do anything, but you have to jump through hoops to do so.

Taking class levels isn't "jumping through hoops" to you? You only get so many. They're a very limited resource.

[ryzouken]

Prerequisites exist to force the player to expend resources (levels, stat points, feat selections, skill point totals) to attain whatever it is that has prereqs. You said it yourself: there are multiple ways to provide or obviate the prereq, but in all cases you had to do something or give up something in order to do it. Sometimes it's just taking a level in something you'd have taken a level in anyway (like in the case of the archetypes), sometimes you have to give up a class ability you don't like or that doesn't fit your playstyle or character to do so (Archetypes again.)

Sometimes the prereqs may not make a great deal of sense, but often they do, particularly if you spend some time contemplating why that prereq is there in the first place (in the case of the fighter and combat expertise: it takes a bit of brainpower and thinking to be able to actively force your opponent into positions where it becomes cumbersome to attack you, ergo, Int 13+.)

[Ozymandias]

The idea is opportunity cost. You essentially pay for feats with not only the feat slot but attribute points that could have been more useful elsewhere. So you have to trade an 18 in STR for a 16 in STR and a 14 in INT (for example).

Yes, you can circumvent the printed requirements of feats with mutli-classing etc, but that too is opportunity cost - for example, adding a level of monk generally weakens a fighting build (although not always). 3.5 is all about options, and you're given various ways of getting certain feats or features - whether a level of monk is worth 3 attribute points is basically going to depend on what you want your build to be.

No one's going to pretend it's balanced, of course, because this is D&D 3.5. But that's the idea.

[Telonius]

tl;dr?

If a prerequisite can be bypassed by jumping through hoops, why bother having it in the first place? Does this drive anyone else insane? Would there be any downsides to removing 'Stat requirement XYZ' as prerequisite to any and all feats?

For the munchkins, the hoops are a speed bump. Yeah, a determined munchkin (with a pushover and/or unsuspecting DM) is going to eventually break the game no matter what the rules are. The prereqs stop them from breaking the game quite as quickly. Which would you prefer: a munchkin who needs to spend three other feats to get the one he wants, or a munchkin who takes exactly the feat he wants plus three others besides?

For the non-munchkin, the prerequisites are meant to represent a greater challenge of stepping outside of a class's preferred element. Ranger gets TWF or archery feats, because TWF or archery is what Ranger does. It's harder for somebody who's not training as a Ranger (for example, a Fighter dwarf clanking around in fullplate, or a caster who isn't focused on martial weapons at all) to get the same benefit. Same way with all the other class-granted feats. Theoretically, anyway, they're so mechanically important to the theme the class is trying to express, that not having it would be silly. On the other side of the coin, opening up (say) Power Attack to 3-STR weakling just doesn't make much sense.

You can see this kind of dynamic in one of the most commonly-houseruled feats: Weapon Finesse. There's a fairly widespread sense (apparently not anticipated by the developers) that Weapon Finesses is pretty central to the Rogue's theme, but they can't get it until third level. So, a fairly significant minority of DMs houserule away the +1BAB requirement. In other (less common) cases, it stays unchanged, but is added as a free first-level bonus feat for Rogues.

[Typewriter]

OK, some good points are being made, it just grates on my nerves that with each book that comes out they create more and more ways to bypass requirements. How is it a requirement if you can just ignore it through some legwork? And if they continue along this path it just seems like it's getting easier and easier, which makes me wonder why the prerequisite existed in the first place.

This post was originally going to be more about the archetypes in Pathfinder and how I hated them because almost everything they introduce could have been handled by feats or something similar, but my original rant wound up focusing more on this so I re-wrote it in the end.

[Yuki Akuma]

The legwork becomes a requirement instead.

You're still expending effort. Just different effort.

[Divide by Zero]

OK, some good points are being made, it just grates on my nerves that with each book that comes out they create more and more ways to bypass requirements. How is it a requirement if you can just ignore it through some legwork?

They're not creating ways to bypass requirements, they're creating different requirements. Barring extreme cheese, a single character can only jump through so many hoops, so as long as the options they add all have an opportunity cost, it only opens up new ways to combine them.

[tonberrian]

You're still paying something. Whether it's a class level, a feat, or an item, everything has a cost. You just get to choose which cost you want to pay.

[Godskook]

The main reason is quite simply that, even in 3.5 right now, you *CAN'T* simply ignore prerequisites. Very few can be bypassed, and fewer can be bypassed easily, cause it usually requires spending levels in classes you actually don't want to be in. Sure, a ranger can get the TWF tree without a decent dex, but for one, you gotta spend a *LOT* of levels in ranger to get them all, and that still doesn't give access to the rest of the feat-tree, so if there are any later feats with TWF as a pre-req, he's probably going to have to raise his Dex to qualify for them(cause most end-tree feats still have the base pre-reqs in them, oddly). And then you're also spending 11 levels in Ranger for that privilege, which is *INCREDIBLY* limiting.

Sure, my Sorcadin gish can get:
-Improved Unarmed Strike
-Monk damage
-Wis->AC(for Ascetic Mage)
-Power Attack without the Str pre-req

All with a single level monk dip, but y'know what, that is a far higher cost than a feat, cause with a sorcadin, I've already lost 2 levels to paladin, and can't afford another level loss.

[shadow_archmagi]

The class system was modeled on the existing class system used by universities, which has an extensive prerequisite system.