Monk vs Expert

[ImperatorK]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9602.0
What do you guys think?
IMO it is a sad, but unfortunetly true thing that Monks are weak, but isn't this a little too much?

[Kylarra]

Eh, it seems more a sign of the borked skill system than a failure on the monk's side. Unless you want to assume that the failure to have the borked skills on its list as a monk failure.

[Yora]

The setup is faulty. Tiers are not about characters being able to defeat each other in single combat.

[Big Fau]

The setup is faulty. Tiers are not about characters being able to defeat each other in single combat.

I've been following that thread myself, and they stay away from the PVP part. They aren't doing PVP, they are measuring usefulness in various encounters (largely combat because that's what the Monk supposedly specializes in).

[ImperatorK]

The setup is faulty. Tiers are not about characters being able to defeat each other in single combat.
That was the initial idea, but later they changed it. Read the newest posts. Now the challenge is about who will be more effective in common encounters. "Same Game Test", or something like that.

[Doug Lampert]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9602.0
What do you guys think?
IMO it is a sad, but unfortunetly true thing that Monks are weak, but isn't this a little too much?

Eh? Too much what. That an NPC class is a match for a monk? It's worse than that of course. I assume you're familiar with JaronK's tier system. Adept is Tier 4, Monk and Expert are both Tier 5.

It's not shocking that an expert is competative with a monk, that's what you'd expect from the fact that they're both the same tier.

DougL

[ImperatorK]

I know tiers. I'm asking if it is too much to say that an NPC class is better then an PC class.

[Gnaeus]

I know tiers. I'm asking if it is too much to say that an NPC class is better then an PC class.

Clearly not. Adept is much stronger than many tier 5 PC classes. Expert is at least competitive. Especially if their 10 skills include UMD, Handle Animal, Iaijutsu Focus, and other winners.

[MeeposFire]

Experts are very useful since they get access to some nice skills. For instance UMD for utility and iajutsu focus for damage (combine with the gnome quickrazor for more damage). And that is before social skills and mobility skills are taken advantage of. In a party situation it would be safe to say that an expert could be more useful in more situations assuming intelligent skill choices and access to decent equipment.

Monk gets "I hit it with my fist a lot, unless I use my awesome maneuverability and then I suck hard".

[Doug Lampert]

I know tiers. I'm asking if it is too much to say that an NPC class is better then an PC class.

If you know tiers then you know that Adept is a higher tier than many PC classes (including both the monk and fighter) and that expert is the same tier as many PC classes and that CW Samuri is tier six (down with the other three NPC classes) and that Truenamer is broken weak.

So yes, there are NPC classes which are stronger and more versatile than PC classes. Better is another question and depends on your objective. But the Tier system has been out there for two years claiming that Monks and Fighters are on a par with Experts and that a party of Monk, Fighter, Expert, Healer would be reasonably ballanced with everyone having a good chance to shine.

DougL

[ericgrau]

That was the initial idea, but later they changed it. Read the newest posts. Now the challenge is about who will be more effective in common encounters. "Same Game Test", or something like that.
What page out of the 34 is the same game test on? Or have they not done that yet? I think comments like UMD polymorph aren't addressing issues like cost and the loss of the expendables over time. It would be nice to see a game session to filter out silliness like that. 34 is a lot of pages that I'm not about to wade through.

[ImperatorK]

Well. There is lots of arguing about how valid their builds are. One proposition was that the Monk take Skill Prodigy (Kingdoms of Kalamar) and mimic Experts skills, but the counter-argumant was that then it's not a Monk. Basicly pro-Expert guys are just nullifying Monks class features with items and trained creatures. For example Monks mobility doesn't matter because Expert can buy or train himself a mount. Or that the Expert can craft himself poison and attack via Iaijutsu Focus.
And there was no actual testing to this point. Only shouting "My Expert can do this", "My Monk can do that", "Oh no, your Monk can't do that, because he's not a Monk anymore".

[JaronK]

The counter argument wasn't that it's not a Monk, it's that the example Monk who did that ended up tanking his Wis and Dex scores because he needed Int so much and ended up being pathetically weak in combat, in addition to not having all that many useful skills anyway.

JaronK

[ImperatorK]

Yeah, that's what you're repeating over and over and over again lately. :smallamused: (not that it's something bad)
Still, I'm pretty sure I saw in one or more of your and others posts something like "But that won't be a Monk anymore".

[Lateral]

Monk gets "I hit it with my fist a lot, unless I use my awesome maneuverability and then I suck hard".

Close. They get "I miss it with my fist a lot, or I use my awesome maneuverability and then I still suck hard. Or I can use the most broken skill in the game, which I have no synergy for and probably only have because my designers were FREAKING IDIOTS."

In fact, the last line probably sums the Monk up. :smallannoyed:

[JaronK]

Yeah, that's what you're repeating over and over and over again lately. :smallamused: (not that it's something bad)
Still, I'm pretty sure I saw in one or more of your and others posts something like "But that won't be a Monk anymore".

The other argument was "if you don't use the Monk class at all to get an ability, that ability is not an indication of what the Monk class gives you." For example, someone saying "Monks are powerful because a Necropolitan Elf Monk with a Longbow can shoot poisoned arrows at long range" isn't actually giving an argument for Monks, they're giving an argument for the usefulness of gaining proficiencies via being an elf and having immunity to poison from being a Necropolitan. And yes, that argument came up.

Not being a Monk anymore is only in reference to builds that don't actually use Monk class features to do anything.

JaronK

[ImperatorK]

Nevermind. It's not important.
Speaking of necropolitans - isn't your Expert a necropolitan?

[ericgrau]

@JaronK: Isn't that the same as doing monk things with items?

I think they really just need to set up a campaign with no restrictions. "I can do this", "I can do it too if I pay that" is pretty pointless.

[Zonugal]

For example, someone saying "Monks are powerful because a Necropolitan Elf Monk with a Longbow can shoot poisoned arrows at long range" isn't actually giving an argument for Monks, they're giving an argument for the usefulness of gaining proficiencies via being an elf and having immunity to poison from being a Necropolitan. And yes, that argument came up.

Which is funny because your builds commonly use the Necropolitan template...


Not being a Monk anymore is only in reference to builds that don't actually use Monk class features to do anything.

JaronK

I think the fault in that thread is a focus on one single monk build presented without a wider focus on monks at large. I presented an example monk build in that thread which was brushed over for some reason or another, never-minding the fact that is uses Monk class abilities quite extensively.

[ericgrau]

But can it get max ranks in appraise?! J/k, again pointless.

[ImperatorK]

@ Zonugal
And who are you?

[JaronK]

@JaronK: Isn't that the same as doing monk things with items?

Yes, which is why the Experts being built aren't doing that, and it was specifically mentioned that that would be silly to do.


Which is funny because your builds commonly use the Necropolitan template...

They do, but I don't credit that template to showing how powerful Experts are. The Expert build in question makes use skills (need Craft Ranks) for poison, and at no point did I say the poison was the only thing going for it. The build actually uses Iaijutsu Focus and Intimidate as primary combat options.

And I'd like to see more focus on Monks in general... it's just that everything got side tracked by Giacomo spouting out the usual Class X fallacies and then SorO jumping in and babbling about that without realizing what he was doing. We're mostly back on track now though, and soon hopefully we'll have decent Monk (and Expert) builds to work with.

JaronK

[ericgrau]

Yes, which is why the Experts being built aren't doing that, and it was specifically mentioned that that would be silly to do.
Eh but there's still a lot of hoopla about skills IIRC. idc if there's a single one, dip 1 level of another class if it's so critical. And if there's 10 nice ones that aren't critical, don't match him skill for skill (or on the other side ability for ability) just do whatever you want to do and compare how they'd do in a campaign. But ya would nice to see a couple builds and some games.

[Big Fau]

Yes, which is why the Experts being built aren't doing that, and it was specifically mentioned that that would be silly to do.


Because when it comes down to it, the WBL is a better class than anyone not in Tier 2+.