Monk // Ninja Gestalt Question

[Avalon2099]

Hi there!

I am currently running a low-magic gestalt game in faerun in Cormyr and I have a player asking if he can be a Monk // Ninja at first glance, I remember the ninja getting Sudden Strike which doesn't give Benefits off of flanking, I don't have access to the book but I have a couple questions...

First does the Wis to AC from both classes stack?

For Sudden Strike to work what conditions need to be met?

The get a feature called Ghost Step which allows invisibility for one round, for a ki point is this a swift action? If so if they are in combat with an opponent and decide to ghost step and then attack from invisibility do they get Sudden Strike? Also is Sudden Strike on the first attack or all attacks that round?

Sorry I'm just tying up any loose ends so nothing catches me by surprise.

[Tvtyrant]

There is actually a feat that progresses ninja class features and monk class features when either levels, so you could use that to get most of the same effect and then gestalt a different class with the one you pick for more benefits.

[Shade Kerrin]

does the Wis to AC from both classes stack?
No, but the +1 every 5 levels does. Explicitly called out in the Ninja section


For Sudden Strike to work what conditions need to be met?
Flat-Footed, and only Flat-footed


The get a feature called Ghost Step which allows invisibility for one round, for a ki point is this a swift action? If so if they are in combat with an opponent and decide to ghost step and then attack from invisibility do they get Sudden Strike? Also is Sudden Strike on the first attack or all attacks that round?

It is a swift action.
They would get Sudden strike, unless the foe could bypass invisibility naturally
Like Sneak attack, Sudden strike applies to all attacks in a given round, as long as you continue to qualify.
There is some debate as to whether Ghost step fades on attack like Invisibility, but by creator intent, and because the power is a Supernatural ability that at no stage ever references the Invisibility spell, it should remain the entire round.

[Te'Shen]

First does the Wis to AC from both classes stack?
No. The description in the ninja class ability specifically states that it doesn't. However, I would say that a character Should be allowed to add his wisdom to ac once from monk and ninja and then any additional bonuses from monk and ninja.


For Sudden Strike to work what conditions need to be met? Whenever a ninja's target is denied his dexterity bonus to his AC. You can try to do this in a few ways, one of which is being invisible.


The get a feature called Ghost Step which allows invisibility for one round, for a ki point is this a swift action? If so if they are in combat with an opponent and decide to ghost step and then attack from invisibility do they get Sudden Strike? Also is Sudden Strike on the first attack or all attacks that round? You are invisible for a full round. No stipulations or limitations otherwise. So you are invisible for a full round, which he could use to sudden strike on all targets that could not see him...

Edit: Yeah, pretty much like Shade said...

[Shade Kerrin]

Edit: Yeah, pretty much like Shade said...

Of course, for I am the Ninja!
This thread holds no place for silly little swordsages....

[Avalon2099]

No. The description in the ninja class ability specifically states that it doesn't. However, I would say that a character Should be allowed to add his wisdom to ac once from monk and ninja and then any additional bonuses from monk and ninja.

Whenever a ninja's target is denied his dexterity bonus to his AC. You can try to do this in a few ways, one of which is being invisible.

You are invisible for a full round. No stipulations or limitations otherwise. So you are invisible for a full round, which he could use to sudden strike on all targets that could not see him...

Edit: Yeah, pretty much like Shade said...

Oh so if I read correctly when using Ghost Step they are invisible for the full round EVEN if they attack? Therefore all attacks are invisible? And he remains invisible even after the attacks are launched?

[Flickerdart]

Oh so if I read correctly when using Ghost Step they are invisible for the full round EVEN if they attack? Therefore all attacks are invisible? And he remains invisible even after the attacks are launched?
Yep.

There are ACFs to trade away a lot of the overlapping abilities, so look into those. Invisible Fist ACF for Monk might also complement the Ninja's small ki pool.

[Shade Kerrin]

Oh so if I read correctly when using Ghost Step they are invisible for the full round EVEN if they attack? Therefore all attacks are invisible? And he remains invisible even after the attacks are launched?

If it sounds OP to you, let me put it this way:

A rogue can, with a certain amount of strategy, can reliably get into position to deliver a sneak attack. If he's good at it, he can pull off a full attack just about every round.
A ninja exchanges the most reliable method of getting into position to deliver sneak attacks, for limited amount of guaranteed(theoretically) full attacks a day.

In practice, the ninja is considered to actually come behind.

[Zaq]

If it sounds OP to you, let me put it this way:

A rogue can, with a certain amount of strategy, can reliably get into position to deliver a sneak attack. If he's good at it, he can pull off a full attack just about every round.
A ninja exchanges the most reliable method of getting into position to deliver sneak attacks, for limited amount of guaranteed(theoretically) full attacks a day.

In practice, the ninja is considered to actually come behind.

Ninja ALWAYS attack from behind. And yet can't activate their bonus damage with flanking. Shut up.

[JaronK]

I am currently running a low-magic gestalt game in faerun in Cormyr and I have a player asking if he can be a Monk // Ninja at first glance, I remember the ninja getting Sudden Strike which doesn't give Benefits off of flanking, I don't have access to the book but I have a couple questions...

Sudden Strike is exactly like Sneak Attack, except that flanking doesn't trigger it. Also, note that an Unarmed Swordsage basically is a gestalt Ninja//Monk.


First does the Wis to AC from both classes stack?

No, only the static AC bonus stacks, the Wisdom does not. Explicitly spelled out in the Ninja entry.


For Sudden Strike to work what conditions need to be met?

Dex denied to AC. Note that they do NOT need to be flat footed. It's just Sneak Attack without a flanking trigger.


The get a feature called Ghost Step which allows invisibility for one round, for a ki point is this a swift action? If so if they are in combat with an opponent and decide to ghost step and then attack from invisibility do they get Sudden Strike? Also is Sudden Strike on the first attack or all attacks that round?

It's a swift action. If they Ghost Strike against an opponent who can't see invisible, they get to use Sudden Strike (because the target's Dex is denied). It applies to all attacks that round, because you go invisible for the entire round. It has limited uses per day though, and is of limited utility later when more and more enemies get the ability to see invisible anyway.

Generally, this is an extremely weak Gestalt combination.

JaronK

[Avalon2099]

Yeah I'm actually using your rules from the Tier post over on BG, it's working well so far I'm running one group simultaneously in the Moonsea with this group in Cormyr, but yeah I wanted to know what I was getting into as I already have a barbarian // rogue (got himself killed by punching out the welcome cleric at the fake Mystra temple) and a Paladin // Fighter (sword/board style). In the moonsea game I have a Warlock//Rogue/Ninja, a Factotum // Swashbuckler , Alchemist // Rogue and a Warblade // Samurai.


Sudden Strike is exactly like Sneak Attack, except that flanking doesn't trigger it. Also, note that an Unarmed Swordsage basically is a gestalt Ninja//Monk.



No, only the static AC bonus stacks, the Wisdom does not. Explicitly spelled out in the Ninja entry.



Dex denied to AC. Note that they do NOT need to be flat footed. It's just Sneak Attack without a flanking trigger.



It's a swift action. If they Ghost Strike against an opponent who can't see invisible, they get to use Sudden Strike (because the target's Dex is denied). It applies to all attacks that round, because you go invisible for the entire round. It has limited uses per day though, and is of limited utility later when more and more enemies get the ability to see invisible anyway.

Generally, this is an extremely weak Gestalt combination.

JaronK

[Psyren]

If you use the Pathfinder Monk instead, couldn't you rule that the ki pools from both classes stack, the same way a PP pool would stack for two psionic classes in a gestalt?

Not saying this would really fix anything, but it could help. And using Pathfinder skills could stretch those skill points a pretty long way.

[Cerlis]

wouldnt with a monk's speed boost, and a ninja's abilities, if on one of those sides you went dervish....you could in a single turn go invisible and sneak attack like almost everyone even if they where reasonably spaced out?


-like others said, the two classes have overlapping abilities but i believe there is room for creative combinations of the two sets of abilities. even though a ninja gets poison use ( i believe) a monk becomes immune to poison. Even if he never has to worry about cutting himself on a poison shuriken he can still pull off the "both cups where poisoned" Princess Bride trick. further sneaking up on someone invisible or ethereal, flurry of blows turns into a sudden strike, so its more useful.

if he takes that feat that allows some monk and ninja abilities to go up together than he can Prc one side, as long as the other sides main class advances he still gets benefits, when hes done with side one, it can continue continuing and the other side can PrC. but dont waste the feat ( i think) if he isnt going to PrC much. And if you are allowing ToB, you dont need to talk him out of Monk/ninja, but you can suggest say the Superior unarmed strike feat and maybe one or two there is one that replaces dodge in there i believe. Combining a monks base damage, increased by the feat in ToB with a ninjas sudden strike seems formidible. and with the spring attack set (he really should TRY to get full attacks, expessially with Invisibiliity and flurry) but under situations where he cant, such as High melee damaging bosses, spellcasters, or high mobility fights with a monks increased speed he'd be able to jump from behind cover, attack, and then get back to cover.

I'm not sure if you'd get Sudden strike, or if you have to manually "hide" even if you disappear from site (around a wall) but big scaries cant hit you if your not there, and most scary spells require you to target the enemy, and if he cant see you then he might as well be a commoner with a high hp total (so long as his allies keeps him from readying a spell and distracting any summons)


point is i'm sure there are lots of interesting options.

[Fouredged Sword]

You would get more mileage out of
Ninja 3 / Monk 17 // rouge 3 / swashbuckler 17

Take the feats from complete adventure / scoundral for mixing the monk / ninja, rouge / swashbuckler, and Monk / rouge levels.

You end up with full suden strike and beter than full sneak attack, as well as high BAB, int to damage and other fun stuff.

Variations
Monk / Ninja // rouge // Scout
- more damage, less Bab. One attack per round limit for skermishing, but armor bonuses. See if you can sneak in greater manyshot for a great turn invis - move - fire lots of arrows vs flatfooted ac with lots of extra damage combo. +1 if you can get the arrows to be touch attacks.

Monk / ninja // Ranger / Scout
Now you can get around undead or other immunities to skermish damage. Doesn't work for sneak attack, but it helps.

Or the dip tastic
Monk 20 // Every dip that qualifies you for an asetic feat.
This gets silly though.