How to Become Evil

[zoobob9]

My character is a level 6 chaotic neutral sorcerer. At level 11 I'm planning on taking a homebrew prestige that will turn me into a lich. One of the prerequisites is being evil, and I have 5 levels to obtain that goal. Over this amount of time, there are plenty of innocents that I could viciously and mercilessly slaughter, but that would make me chaotic evil. I'd rather be lawful evil. They seem cooler. What acts could I take to make me lawful evil by level 11?

[Zonugal]

What acts could I take to make me lawful evil by level 11?

Umm... Well there are a lot, but you could just watch a marathon of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit and just draw inspiration from the villains found within each episode.

[Kaeso]

Becoming Evil in five easy steps:
1. Buy a puppy
2. Take the puppy to a public area
3. Kick the puppy
4. ???????
5. Profit!

[Urpriest]

Alignment doesn't work that way. Acts only make you a certain alignment because the DM is asserting that you aren't correctly playing the alignment you have. Just explain the change in your character's personality and what causes it, and your alignment will change regardless of you doing anything about it.

[hivedragon]

Find a LE kingdom and enlist in it's military service.
Doing bad things for the greater social good is what LE is all about.

[Typewriter]

Be direct and forceful in going after what you want.

"My names is Evil Jimmy, and I require that you assist me in finding your master. If you do not acquiesce I will start bringing your family members in one at a a time and asking them. Those who do not know the answer will be dealt with, swiftly. If at the end of this line of 'questioning' you still have not found the bit of knowledge I seek then you will be dismissed from my view. I do not do this because I crave to see your family suffer. I do not do this because of any slight you have dealt me, nor really do I have any problems with you beyond that you are not giving me that which I ask for. I do this because I need to find your master and, as the old saying goes, the quickest path between two points is a straight line, and unfortunately for you that straight line cuts right through your home. Answer now, or prepare yourself for all that I have promised you. Answer now, and go free, carrying with you word of my mercy."

In other words, don't kill for no reason, but don't shy away from killing if it will make your life any easier. Obey the rules, make the rules. Don't work with people force them to work for you. Reward those who please you, punish harshly those who don't.

/2 cents

EDIT:

Alignment doesn't work that way. Acts only make you a certain alignment because the DM is asserting that you aren't correctly playing the alignment you have. Just explain the change in your character's personality and what causes it, and your alignment will change regardless of you doing anything about it.

True, but telling your DM "I'm evil now" and then continuing to save the day isn't changing your alignment. He could just change the alignment written on his character sheet, but what happens if it comes time to take the PrC and his DM doesn't feel he's been playing lawful evil?

He's not asking what evil is, he's asking what acts will make him evil.

[QuidEst]

I think the best example of Lawful Evil around (or high on the top five) is Darth Vader. LE at its best is calculating, efficient, and ruthless.
So, some suggestions:
Consider why your character (not you) wishes to become a lich.
You're CN right now, so the main thing to do is figure out why he is becoming more systematic. Consider giving him a situation where it's the best way to solve things.
Feel free to switch him over to CE, a single step from CN. Then have the transformation move him from CE to LE- death gives him a new lease on life, as it were. He starts to see the inherent order in the gradual decay of everything around him. Try to be a little subtle about it, rather than just slapping on an epiphany.

[McStabbington]

If your heart is set on Lawful Evil, then you should really consult the Fiendish Codex dealing with the Nine Hells. They've got quite a few lists on acts that turn you lawful, and which turn you evil. As a matter of fact, I would strongly suggest talking it over with your DM; he could probably bring in plot hooks that will help your character convincingly turn Lawful Evil over time, and then you can either take the prestige as fruition of your plan, or as an escape. I say the latter because the most efficient way I can think of to make yourself lawful evil is to purchase a devil's services in acquiring more power. Of course, you still need your soul if you want to be a lich.

[monkeysammich]

Wear armor out of stitched together babies.

Dead... or alive.

Then walk through a town offering lots of money if they cast circle of death near you.

insta-evil!

[ClothedInVelvet]

Watch the movie Serenity (after seeing Firefly of course). The operative in there makes one of the best speeches for a LE character. It actually made me think about becoming LE in real life.

[After the operative kills entire villages]
The Operative: I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: I don't murder children.
The Operative: I do. If I have to.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Why? Do you even know why they sent you?
The Operative: It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?
The Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

[Thurbane]

Slap on a Helm of opposite alignment to be become LN, then start Lawfully murdering innocents until you click over to LE? :smalltongue:

...else, let yourself deliberately be corrupted by a Devil...a few Faustian Pacts ought to help the process along. :smallbiggrin:

[Typewriter]

Watch the movie Serenity (after seeing Firefly of course). The operative in there makes one of the best speeches for a LE character. It actually made me think about becoming LE in real life.

[After the operative kills entire villages]
The Operative: I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: I don't murder children.
The Operative: I do. If I have to.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Why? Do you even know why they sent you?
The Operative: It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?
The Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

Not that this is really the place to talk about it, but I saw that guy as more Lawful Neutral. I don't think he himself was evil, or wanted to do evil things, he was simply told "Go and do these things so that everything will be better". His master was Lawful Evil.

Ozymandias from Watchmen is another example, at least in the graphic novel. In the comic he seemed sad at his actions, he admitted to his monstrous deeds, but his motives, and their outcomes, were largely good. The movie made him seem kind of like a superior schmuck IMO.

Consider Miko for a moment, she was being sent on unlawful missions, but that didn't change her alignment. Even when her intent was to kill people she perceived as evil I don't think it shifted her alignment because her intent was good. The gods stripped her of her paladin status because she performed an evil act, all of her own accord.


In other words, I don't really see performing evil acts to be inherently evil. Performing evil on behalf of the greater good is decidedly more neutral to me.

And this is all opinion, I'm not trying to state this as fact or anything, it's just what I think.

[ClothedInVelvet]

We're diving deep into the philosophy of ethics here, and I'm doing everything I can to resist writing a quick (or not so quick) summary of how ethics function.

Sufficient to say that you are not alone. There is a large school of philosophical thought that thinks the ethical value of the action is determined by the outcome.

There is another school that thinks only the intention matters. However, here they would disagree with you on what makes intentions good. Many of them would say that lying under any circumstances (Nazi at the doorstep) is wrong.

Both of these traditions have very solid foundations and no one should be chastised for holding either of them.

[PirateLizard]

I've always laughed at that evil requirement, since striving to become a Lich in my book is pretty much evil enough. And just to complicate things there's also a "good lich" template in FR. So your intents of Lichdom are either good, or bad, and if they're bad you might as well just be evil already.

[Talya]

The ritual to become a lich should make you evil.

[Xanmyral]

Well, I would guess to get the lawful part is simple enough. Try your hardest to never break a promise, or a law unless you are following orders to do something else. However, if you find a loophole, exploit the nine hells out of it. Generally be evil, but loyal. Hold yourself to high standards, and don't purposely call or claim your evil. Lay down a few guide rules for your self that you always follow, but leave them flexible enough to break if you really need to. Don't do this unless you have to however. Kill systematically, not randomly. Best I got really.

[Zonugal]

There is another school that thinks only the intention matters. However, here they would disagree with you on what makes intentions good. Many of them would say that lying under any circumstances (Nazi at the doorstep) is wrong.

Deontology isn't about intentions but rather about the action itself.

Utilitarianism is about the outcome, Deontology is about the action and Virtue Ethics is about the individual.

[ClothedInVelvet]

Deontology isn't about intentions but rather about the action itself.


Deontology is about the intention. Kant believes that the only thing that has any real moral value is a good will. Basically, if I try to free a bunch of monkeys from scientific experiments and end up infecting the world with rage, my action had moral worth because I had a good will (assuming freeing the monkeys was a good thing to try to do).

[Kaeso]

Deontology is about the intention. Kant believes that the only thing that has any real moral value is a good will. Basically, if I try to free a bunch of monkeys from scientific experiments and end up infecting the world with rage, my action had moral worth because I had a good will (assuming freeing the monkeys was a good thing to try to do).

I don't have anything personally against either you or Kants philosophy, but I suggest that you two take this discussion to the PM? I don't want to be rude, but this likely breaks the forum rules and could lock this thread prematurely.

[Zonugal]

EDIT: Ethical Philosophy Garbly Goo!

Back to trying to teach someone how to be evil.

Regarding making the transition from chaotic neutral to lawful evil your character is going to have to make a slow (but honest) conversion of fundamental, personal beliefs. The sorcerer might begin to see how crazy people are without order and how without strict guidance their actions just end up becoming pointless. A push towards light fascism is a nice way for your character to possibly move towards lichdom.

[LrdoftheRngs]

As QuidEst said, be Vader. You have a goal. Nothing will stop from getting to that goal. If anything stands in your way, deal with it in the quickest and most efficient way possible. If that means murder, do it, but do it because it facilitates your goal, not because you want to. If finding the plans means force-choking a bunch of rebels, do it. If finding the world-killing artifact means torturing Orphans, do it.

Another way to be lawful evil is to, quite simply, rule an evil empire. But that is easier said than done...

[Slipperychicken]

1. Find a LE Cleric who can cast Atonement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm)
2. Get him to cast it on you (specifically "temptation" to switch your alignment to his: LE).
3. ???
4. PROFIT!!



[no animals were harmed in the shifting of this alignment]

[Lord Bingo]

Read about the Spanish Inquisition. In D&D alignment terms what they did was certainly lawful and most assuredly evil.

[erikun]

What acts could I take to make me lawful evil by level 11?
A five-level spanning Xanatos Gambit?

[Zonugal]

A five-level spanning Xanatos Gambit?

You don't need to be lawful to pull off one of those just incredibly cunning/smart.

[QuidEst]

If anything stands in your way, deal with it in the quickest and most efficient way possible. If that means murder, do it, but do it because it facilitates your goal, not because you want to.
I personally like throwing in a little bit of a flaw in the veneer… I have one character (not a tabletop character, just a fictional character) who would normally be lawful or neutral evil- he is working towards a personal goal in a direct, systematic manner. Bystanders may be injured, inconvenienced, or killed, but only to whatever degree is necessary. But if somebody with a degree of competency stands up to him- then he delivers a decidedly CE beat-down with a metal pipe. Lawful can be something that they've decided on rationally, but not all of them goes along with.


You don't need to be lawful to pull off one of those just incredibly cunning/smart.
This is true, Joker being a good example. He's as CE as they come, and loves a good Xanatos gambit.

[Tvtyrant]

Sell your afterlife to Devils; this immediately changes your alignment to LE in the Fiendish Codex, and you have no intention of allowing them to collect anyway. In return you get to skip a level!

[zoobob9]

Sell your afterlife to Devils; this immediately changes your alignment to LE in the Fiendish Codex, and you have no intention of allowing them to collect anyway. In return you get to skip a level!

Wouldn't they somehow stop me from completing the transformation somehow? Also, if I'm backing out of a contract or "using a loophole" then isn't that not lawful?

[Thurbane]

Also, if I'm backing out of a contract or "using a loophole" then isn't that not lawful?
If you can wrangle it, I would say that using the "letter of the law" to twist the wording of an agreement to your advantage is the very essence of Lawful Evil. Asmodeus would be proud! :smalltongue:

[Tvtyrant]

No, turning into a Lich as a loophole is a perfect example of LE. Following the letter of the law and spitting on the spirit. Also, they might try to hunt you down, but they don't have free access to the Prime Material. And you will end up with them anyway, so they needn't worry. Even if you didn't go soul selling dieing as a LE person would end up up in either Baator or Acheron, so your end result is the same.

[Slipperychicken]

Also, if I'm backing out of a contract or "using a loophole" then isn't that not lawful?

It would, however, be *Very* lawful to go up to a cleric and pay him 3000gp (spells cost, assuming DM makes you shell out for it) to turn you evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm)...


SRD; Atonement

This use of atonement simply offers a believable way for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.


I also heard of a rule that a large number of successful Diplo checks over the course of a month could change your alignment one step at a time... BOED?

[RedWarrior0]

It would, however, be *Very* lawful to go up to a cleric and pay him 3000gp (spells cost, assuming DM makes you shell out for it) to turn you evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm)...


If he makes you, the gold cost is for the XP cost, which doesn't exist if you are just changing alignments. The NPC would presumably have some prayer device worth 500 gp.



When cast for the benefit of a creature whose guilt was the result of deliberate acts, the cost to you is 500 XP per casting (see above).

[Elana]

I think the best example of Lawful Evil around (or high on the top five) is Darth Vader. LE at its best is calculating, efficient, and ruthless....

So constantly breaking your word and betraying the guys you swear loyalty too makes you now lawful?

Silly me, I thought being driven just by your emotions with no sense of loyalty or logic would make you chaotic.

[Kaeso]

So constantly breaking your word and betraying the guys you swear loyalty too makes you now lawful?

Silly me, I thought being driven just by your emotions with no sense of loyalty or logic would make you chaotic.

Most people in the Star Wars fandom pretend the prequel trilogy never existed. If we assume that then yes, Darth Vader is certainly Lawful Badass Evil.
If not, he's Chaotic Whiny.

[Lord Bingo]

Also, I gather the deal with the devil would be your soul upon your death. You becoming a lich does not invalidate the contract and the devil still have dibs on your soul when you pass on. You just do not plan to.

[hamishspence]

If we take the view that he was being honest in The Empire Strikes Back when he said his goal was to "bring order to the galaxy"- then he might be like an Evil counterpart of Roy Greenhilt.

That is- someone who is trying to be Lawful- which makes up for the fact that he occasionally veers toward Chaos in the execution of his goals.

There's room for alignment change as well- for me, Anakin Skywalker, in most of the prequel books, seems to come across as Chaotic Good to Chaotic Neutral- he could be Chaotic Evil after swearing loyalty to the Sith- and slowly veered toward Lawful Evil over time until becoming LE before the original trilogy starts.

[Kaeso]

If we take the view that he was being honest in The Empire Strikes Back when he said his goal was to "bring order to the galaxy"- then he might be like an Evil counterpart of Roy Greenhilt.

That is- someone who is trying to be Lawful- which makes up for the fact that he occasionally veers toward Chaos in the execution of his goals.

:smallconfused: How exactly, going purely by the original trilogy?

[hamishspence]

Tricking his own party members, and conspiring to work behind the backs of paladins, are cited here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

EDIT:- For Vader, "altering the deal" repeatedly might be a possible example.

Plotting betrayal against Palpatine, despite the fact that this is part of the Sith code, might also qualify depending on the reader.

[Kaeso]

Tricking his own party members, and conspiring to work behind the backs of paladins, are cited here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

Actually, I referred to Darth Vader, not Roy.

[hamishspence]

Correction made above- after your edit.

[Socratov]

I think becoming evil is no problem anymore (enough suggestions given here). the only question here is: will you want it to be sudden (like an epiphany) or more subtle and gradual (more like smeagol turning into gollem). Sure the first option is easier, find that cleric, become LE and become a lich. But I think (personally) the second option is mroe rewarding story wise. it woudl make a great story, if you search for power, find the way to becoming a lich, and become more and more evil and organised as the promis of power slowly corrupts your mind and soul (you will want to exchage ideas and plothooks with teh DM for this, if you really want to have fun, keep it a secret from the rest of your party). And when the time comes, your true nature (you will be acting against the party so as they won't know the change, but dropping small hints) will reveal and you will revel in your power and lichness :smallyuk:

[hamishspence]

Given that Smeagol becoming Gollum began when he committed murder to get the One Ring, I'm not sure if that one qualifies as subtle and gradual.

That said, a bit-by-bit process sounds like a good idea.

[hobbitkniver]

Alignment doesn't work that way. Acts only make you a certain alignment because the DM is asserting that you aren't correctly playing the alignment you have. Just explain the change in your character's personality and what causes it, and your alignment will change regardless of you doing anything about it.

I agree, your character wouldn't have to condition themself to being evil if they decided they wanted to be.

[Urpriest]

Look, how you can turn evil is entirely dependent on your character's personality. So please tell us three things:

1. Why is your character Chaotic Neutral now?

2. What does your character care about/value?

3. Why does your character want to become a lich? (On the flipside, does your character want to become a lich now, or is this something the character has yet to decide?)

[hamishspence]

Alignment doesn't work that way. Acts only make you a certain alignment because the DM is asserting that you aren't correctly playing the alignment you have.

I'd say this only applies to some alignment changes. For others, it might have more to do with character evolution- with the character retaining some traditional traits like altruism for Good characters, but over time gaining less compatible traits- like cruelty toward specified groups.

In BoVD it points out that Evil acts can taint the world around the being committing them- so it may make sense that they taint the being, as well- eventually outweighing traditional traits of a nonevil alignment (respect for life, altruism, compassion, etc) for game purposes.

[Urpriest]

I'd say this only applies to some alignment changes. For others, it might have more to do with character evolution- with the character retaining some traditional traits like altruism for Good characters, but over time gaining less compatible traits- like cruelty toward specified groups.


This is what I was trying to say really. Your character picks up traits consistent with being evil, and eventually your character has enough such traits that you or your DM judges that you can no longer be accurately described as Good.

[Coidzor]

Acquire orphans/unwanted babies.
Eat them.
???
EVIL PROFIT!

Alternatively...
Ask the DM nicely.
When declined, eat another PC in his sleep
???
EVIL NPC!

Now, where you get these cannibalistic desires is up to you as a roleplayer.

edit1: Just one should get you the Evil you want, so you can concentrate the rest of your efforts on getting the lawful part. Though you could sacrifice the baby/orphan instead to some Baatezu entity which would take you towards the LE side of things.

edit2: So how does your character feel about devils?

[Callista]

You ask us "how to become evil" and don't even provide a rundown on your character's personality--what are we, psychic?

There are as many ways to turn Evil as there are people. Everyone has his own temptations and weaknesses. Some people want power or money; others would kill the whole world to protect the one person they loved. Some want revenge. Others just want to see the world burn. Who is your character, and what does he value? Take that, and twist it, and you'll have your answer.

[hamishspence]

Champions of Ruin phrases it as "consistant, repeated evil acts are consistant with an evil alignment" though Good and Neutral characters can be "driven to them from time to time".

When the acts are serious enough, yet the character's Good traits (altruism, compassion, and personal sacrifices toward strangers) are retained, you still end up with an Evil character rather than a Neutral or Good one- but they're rather atypical of traditional Evil, which tends to be portrayed in PHB as lacking in these.

Result- the character is Evil by deeds, yet most of their personality traits fit a Good one.

[QuidEst]

Wouldn't they somehow stop me from completing the transformation somehow? Also, if I'm backing out of a contract or "using a loophole" then isn't that not lawful?
Lawful is very big on loopholes. Keep in mind that it's not a perfect loophole- Liches, unless very careful, don't last forever. So eventually he'll have to make good on that deal. Now, he'll have an awfully long time to buy his way out of it, but he's working from the position of having likely ticked off some LE folks who are more than willing to hold out for original terms. Also, keep in mind that they're also able to exploit loopholes. So they might decide to lend a hand to anybody trying to take him down, in order to collect on the deal…

[Callista]

Champions of Ruin phrases it as "consistant, repeated evil acts are consistant with an evil alignment" though Good and Neutral characters can be "driven to them from time to time".

When the acts are serious enough, yet the character's Good traits (altruism, compassion, and personal sacrifices toward strangers) are retained, you still end up with an Evil character rather than a Neutral or Good one- but they're rather atypical of traditional Evil, which tends to be portrayed in PHB as lacking in these.

Result- the character is Evil by deeds, yet most of their personality traits fit a Good one.Those are some of the more interesting Evil characters, I think.

Now, you're CN right now, and you want to go to LE... okay. The biggest change isn't going to be the G-E axis; it'll be the L-C axis.

What would cause your chaotic, free-spirited, individualistic character to adopt a disciplined, orderly, lawful mindset?

One possibility I can see is that you start out as somewhat innocent, maybe just out to enjoy yourself and out to enjoy the world, meaning no harm, but not really willing to risk it all to help others, either--that's chaotic neutral.

Take that naive character and have them "grow up" and realize how the world works--the strong dominate, the weak obey, and if you want to get anywhere you'll be hard-hearted and take every chance you can get. Give him a particular hatred for the people who he sees as the kind of person he used to be--the freewheeling, undisciplined people who throw wrenches into the works of order. They annoy him because they're out to have fun and because they think the world is a fascinating place, because they think of themselves as free and refuse to bow down to anyone. Have him really crack down on them--maybe because he's ashamed of how silly he used to be.

I'm trying to think of fictional examples here but I'm not coming up with much--Anakin Skywalker comes closest, though there's some argument he started out CG, not CN. But it's a similar principle--the idea of power, or the lust for power, corrupting a character and allowing him to forget that he used to value freedom.

[Taelas]

Another example of a Lawful Evil character is Lex Luthor.

[hamishspence]

What would cause your chaotic, free-spirited, individualistic character to adopt a disciplined, orderly, lawful mindset?


Enmity against the "powers of chaos" might be a start- if the character has been badly wronged by, say, the slaadi, they might embark on a course of undermining and weakening them- by making the world a more orderly place.

[zoobob9]

Look, how you can turn evil is entirely dependent on your character's personality. So please tell us three things:

1. Why is your character Chaotic Neutral now?

2. What does your character care about/value?

3. Why does your character want to become a lich? (On the flipside, does your character want to become a lich now, or is this something the character has yet to decide?)

Its in a spoiler due to length and one SoD spoiler.

1. He's CN because as he plagiarized from Fight Club: "I am free in all of the ways that you are not." He has before voted on burning down a watermill and blaming the goblins instead of fixing it. He finds lawful characters to be pretentious but since recent adventures with a monk has changed his position. There is a law in this realm that bans necromancy in all of its forms, but he still has False Life just in case hell need it. He has never felt compulsion towards either good or evil before, but one teammate, a CG barbarian, has started to make him dislike good characters. Morality is starting to get in the way of personal interest.

2. He cares about freedom and is overall pretty selfish. He does do selfless acts when its necessary, and has recently gone through great self sacrifice because he wronged a town (long story short: he made an army of 500 goblins able to attack it easily, and may almost die defending it, well find out Saturday), so he is leaning towards neutral already.

3. I've forgotten if I already said this, but my character is a sorcerer. He is often shown up by the Wizard in the group because of his versatility, as well as generally being put down because he is a sorcerer and not a wizard (like in Start of Darkness. He would like complete arcane power, and being a lich would give him time to gain that. The barbarian and fighter are always showing him up in melee combat, so the extra hitpoints/other perks would make him better in melee. Most importantly, he isn't respected, and having the power and shock factor (pun intended, paralyzing touch) of being a lich would give him that respect. At least in his mind.

Also, he thinks that they look kinda cool.

[Zonugal]

This site has a pretty good right up on alignments... (http://www.easydamus.com/lawfulevil.html)

Also this poem does a good job of perhaps getting you into the mindset:

"Men are still men. The despot’s wickedness
Comes of ill teaching, and of power’s excess,—
Comes of the purple he from childhood wears,
Slaves would be tyrants if the chance were theirs."
Victor Hugo—The Vanished City.


Another example of a Lawful Evil character is Lex Luthor.

Yes, this is one of the perfect models of a Lawful Evil being.

[Urpriest]

Its in a spoiler due to length and one SoD spoiler.

1. He's CN because as he plagiarized from Fight Club: "I am free in all of the ways that you are not." He has before voted on burning down a watermill and blaming the goblins instead of fixing it. He finds lawful characters to be pretentious but since recent adventures with a monk has changed his position. There is a law in this realm that bans necromancy in all of its forms, but he still has False Life just in case hell need it. He has never felt compulsion towards either good or evil before, but one teammate, a CG barbarian, has started to make him dislike good characters. Morality is starting to get in the way of personal interest.

2. He cares about freedom and is overall pretty selfish. He does do selfless acts when its necessary, and has recently gone through great self sacrifice because he wronged a town (long story short: he made an army of 500 goblins able to attack it easily, and may almost die defending it, well find out Saturday), so he is leaning towards neutral already.

3. I've forgotten if I already said this, but my character is a sorcerer. He is often shown up by the Wizard in the group because of his versatility, as well as generally being put down because he is a sorcerer and not a wizard (like in Start of Darkness. He would like complete arcane power, and being a lich would give him time to gain that. The barbarian and fighter are always showing him up in melee combat, so the extra hitpoints/other perks would make him better in melee. Most importantly, he isn't respected, and having the power and shock factor (pun intended, paralyzing touch) of being a lich would give him that respect. At least in his mind.

Also, he thinks that they look kinda cool.

See, all of that indicates that you want to become chaotic evil, not lawful evil. Doing something for others in the case of saving that town is a good act more than a lawful one, and the reasons for becoming a lich are essentially purely ones of personal power and contempt for others' moral strictures. The transition won't be that complicated: really, all that needs to happen is that your selfishness must cross the line into actually harming others/evil acts, and seeking to become a lich will cover that.

Could you explain why you want to be lawful?

[zoobob9]

See, all of that indicates that you want to become chaotic evil, not lawful evil. Doing something for others in the case of saving that town is a good act more than a lawful one, and the reasons for becoming a lich are essentially purely ones of personal power and contempt for others' moral strictures. The transition won't be that complicated: really, all that needs to happen is that your selfishness must cross the line into actually harming others/evil acts, and seeking to become a lich will cover that.

Could you explain why you want to be lawful?

It seems like being lawful would justify it. He might be becoming evil, but in his mind he doesn't want to be all bad. Bringing in the law aspect would furthermore justify his "transformation", and hes really moving more towards true neutral over the last meet. He does hate who he is, since he is disrespected, and thinks that completely switching his alignment will change him into someone he can tolerate. He's quite insane, and is just justifying all of this within himself.

[Taelas]

Normally people don't plan their alignment changes. It isn't impossible, but it seems rather like metagaming.

But if he specifically wants to be Lawful Evil, he can simply pay for an atonement spell from a Lawful Evil cleric. There is a clause for just what you want.

[Urpriest]

It seems like being lawful would justify it. He might be becoming evil, but in his mind he doesn't want to be all bad. Bringing in the law aspect would furthermore justify his "transformation", and hes really moving more towards true neutral over the last meet. He does hate who he is, since he is disrespected, and thinks that completely switching his alignment will change him into someone he can tolerate. He's quite insane, and is just justifying all of this within himself.

No he doesn't. Well not exactly anyway. Yes, alignments do exist in-world, but it's not like they're called alignments most of the time, and it's rather unlikely that your character would think in those terms. Your character might want to change his personality, even his moral outlook, but I doubt your character wants to change his alignment.

[Taelas]

It is unlikely, but not impossible, especially if he knows enough about the laws of the universe (i.e. has plenty of ranks in Knowledge (the planes)).

[zoobob9]

Normally people don't plan their alignment changes. It isn't impossible, but it seems rather like metagaming.

But if he specifically wants to be Lawful Evil, he can simply pay for an atonement spell from a Lawful Evil cleric. There is a clause for just what you want.

He looks at people of this alignment with envy. In every instance that hes seen them, they have been formidable and rather godlike. He doesn't consciously want to change, but will be subconsciously moving towards it without him noticing. He does actively want to be a lich though. The desire to be a lich, respected, powerful, etc. are the things that are subconsciously changing him.

[Urpriest]

He looks at people of this alignment with envy. In every instance that hes seen them, they have been formidable and rather godlike. He doesn't consciously want to change, but will be subconsciously moving towards it without him noticing. He does actively want to be a lich though. The desire to be a lich, respected, powerful, etc. are the things that are subconsciously changing him.

Does he use Detect Chaos/Good/Law/etc. regularly? If not, how does he even know these peoples' alignments? I could see him envying others' personality types, but it's a little silly for him to envy other characters' alignments.

[zoobob9]

Does he use Detect Chaos/Good/Law/etc. regularly? If not, how does he even know these peoples' alignments? I could see him envying others' personality types, but it's a little silly for him to envy other characters' alignments.

Well, not the alignment specifically, but people who he has seen who have the lawful evil characteristics/morals are often envied. Since he doesn't use detect spells, the DM doesn't say if the villains are lawful evil, but the way they act seems lawful evil. I know as much as my guy knows, so he would think they're lawful evil too, but neither of us are certain.

[Urpriest]

Well, not the alignment specifically, but people who he has seen who have the lawful evil characteristics/morals are often envied. Since he doesn't use detect spells, the DM doesn't say if the villains are lawful evil, but the way they act seems lawful evil. I know as much as my guy knows, so he would think they're lawful evil too, but neither of us are certain.

Yes, but why would he think of them as lawful evil, as opposed to just determined, organized, and ruthless? What would prompt your character to classify them by their alignment rather than by their personality?

[zoobob9]

Yes, but why would he think of them as lawful evil, as opposed to just determined, organized, and ruthless? What would prompt your character to classify them by their alignment rather than by their personality?

That's just it. He doesn't label them as lawful evil, but groups them by their characteristics. Thanks, I didn't know how to state it. But he does wish to emulate those personality traits that lawful evil people have.

[Urpriest]

That's just it. He doesn't label them as lawful evil, but groups them by their characteristics. Thanks, I didn't know how to state it. But he does wish to emulate those personality traits that lawful evil people have.

Then why doesn't he just start imitating those traits he admires? If those traits are truly lawful evil, then that's all you'll need to change your alignment.

[zoobob9]

Then why doesn't he just start imitating those traits he admires? If those traits are truly lawful evil, then that's all you'll need to change your alignment.

Good point. This thread has given me many ways I could become LE.

[hamishspence]

If the character knows enough about the 4 alignments as "forces that define the cosmos"- they may feel that the force of Law is somehow better than the force of Chaos, and wish to affilate themselves with it.

which in game terms might be "wish to become Lawful".

[Socratov]

How about this then: he abhorrs the goody ol' barbaria, he dislikes him so much he actually tries to distantiate himself from this barbarian. That in effect gives him the evil component you're looking for, next to the corruption of power. The fact that he likes this monk, teaching him about law honor etc. he can aspire to become less chaotic in his ways, bringing some structure into his actions, thus becoming more and more lawful instead of chaotic. Sure it requires a lot of roleplaying (especially if you want to do it more gradually). However, it's certainly (at least imho) more interesting for both you and the party then just finding a cleric to cast atonement on you :smallamused:

another idea is to induce strife by roleplaying, by beïng not content with the dividing of loot, or not getting the respect he deserves, the he could go about on a personal quest to make the others pay and becoming more hateful over time. he knows however that he needs to plan this carefully else he will be beaten by the group. tl:dr hate makes him evil, the careful planning (more) lawful.