Two-Weapon Fighting and Natural attacks

[jguy]

I have a quick rules question. I have claws that allow for secondary naturals, and a set of spiked gauntlets specifically designed to not hinder claw attacks in anyway. I have two weapon Fighting and we'll say +10 to hit for ease of argument without enough BAB to get secondary attacks. Would a Full-Attack scenario come out to be this:

+8 (mainhand)//+8 (offhand) & +3 (claw)//+3 (claw)

Another quick question. The added dex to damage from Shadow Blade from ToB, that is not reduced by half with off hands like strength is right? Similar to how Swashbuckler gets Int to damage.

[Godskook]

That's all kosher provided that your DM agrees that you can make a gauntlet attack and a claw attack with the same hand, cause by RAW, you can't.

[Quietus]

Your full attack would be +8/+8/+3/+3 all with gauntlets, then two claw attacks at +3 (-2 for the TWF penalties, and a further -5 for secondary natural weapons). So effectively Gauntlet1 +8/Gauntlet2 +8/Gauntlet1+3/Gauntlet2 +3/Claw1 +3/Claw2 +3. If you took multiattack, your claw attacks would be at +6 instead.

On shadow blade : Yes, you get your full dex to damage, even on off-hand attacks. Do keep in mind that your claws wouldn't get it, because they aren't Shadow Hand weapons.

[Keld Denar]

Funny story, TWFing penalties only apply to attacks made with main hand and offhand weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#tableTwoWeaponFightingPenalties ), of which natural attacks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) are neither (they are secondary natural weapons, distinctly different from offhands). Thus, his attack routine would be:

+8/+8/+5/+5

The first attack would get full +Str, but the last 3 would not (one is an offhand attack which only gets +1/2 Str, the other two are secondary natural weapons that also only get +1/2 Str, but for a different reason than offhand attacks).

Its wierd, but true.

See my guide. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)

[Darrin]

That's all kosher provided that your DM agrees that you can make a gauntlet attack and a claw attack with the same hand, cause by RAW, you can't.

Actually, by RAW, you can. From the Rules Compendium:



"Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise, and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary. These secondary attacks don’t interfere with the primary attack, but they take the usual penalty for being secondary attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon."
(emphasis added)

There is no explicit rule anywhere that says if you attack with a sword held in your claw, you can't also attack with that claw. However, this rule is heavily *implied* from the various MM stat blocks for humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, etc. And by heavily, I mean if you attempt to argue otherwise, you'll probably get heavy objects thrown at your head.

[jguy]

Okay, it hadn't occurred to me that TWF penalties didn't interfere with natural secondary, that really helps me.

We usually go for the "If you are holding a sword in the hand, you cannot claw with the hand", that is why I got my gauntlets made special to not interfere with the DM's approval of course.

I usually don't go for the "multiple attacks with precision/sneak attack" route but this has slowly evolved naturally and it is fun to play a martial character again after playing Batman Wizards and CoDzillas.