is it too cruel?

[big teej]

I've been thinking about assassins alot lately (not necessarily the class, just the concept in general, and how to apply it)

and I have two scenarios that I want to pitch at the playground and see where it falls on the scale of "bastard DM"

the first situation.
a Kython Impaler.
if the party has tangled with the forces of evil (and kythons) repeatedly, one of these lil buggers is likely to be sent after the party. now, fluffwise, it describes these guys as Kython Assassins, meant to hunt down and eliminate specific targets.

how cruel is it too have one of these guys sneak up on a party of say.... 4th OR 5th level adventurers, and attempt to kill them all while they sleep?


second situation
in my current campaign, I have 2 players who have explicitly stated "we have assassins after us"

now, my understanding of the Assassin (the class now) is that their major ability, death attack, consists of studying someone for 3 rounds, and then attacking them, forcing a save or die.

now, I imagined this going down something like this...
the party is in a bar, when a man walks up to the party and intiates conversation with the target player, conversation proceeds for a while (roughly 3 rounds) and then the man death-attacks the player out of no-where.


discuss/thoughts?


oh, I suppose I should add one last thing.

for the Assassin in example 2, the target would be either
Lesser Tiefling Duskblade - currently at level 4
Dwarf Knight - also level 4

the Kython would have to handle a 5th level party of
Human Paladin
Dwarf Knight
Gnome Cleric
Human Barbarian
Gnome Bard
Human Ranger


if this is an inappropriate challenenge for the listed targets, please say so as well.

[Tvtyrant]

IMO if your going to send assassins you need to have some sort of scripted alarm; the party is in a mages home and the faithful watchdog goes crazy, waking people up but not telling them where the creature is.

[ClothedInVelvet]

I think it's very, very important to make it realistic. If your party is concerned about assassins, they would probably be taking precautions against being found. Unless they're broadcasting their identity/location, it might be tough for assassins to follow them without noticing and track them down. If they're reasonably careful, I'd be thinking about the reality that the assassins are working in too.

[big teej]

IMO if your going to send assassins you need to have some sort of scripted alarm; the party is in a mages home and the faithful watchdog goes crazy, waking people up but not telling them where the creature is.

at the risk of sounding snarky (and I don't mean too)

so there are no competent assassins in the world capable of actually doing their job where the PCs are concerned? :smallconfused:

I doubt that is the message you intended but....
that's sorta how I read it.


I think it's very, very important to make it realistic. If your party is concerned about assassins, they would probably be taking precautions against being found. Unless they're broadcasting their identity/location, it might be tough for assassins to follow them without noticing and track them down. If they're reasonably careful, I'd be thinking about the reality that the assassins are working in too.

well, here's the thing.

I wouldn't call them "concerned" despite the fact that assassins were THEIR idea. (I told them "give me a backstory, and I will use everything I can") and I had two people give me asssassiny type backstories.
1 explicitly stated that people were trying to kill him
the other stated he was hated by a tyrant*

*a tyrant with the resources required to hire people to kill him.

the first character doesn't QUITE announce his presence, but he certainly doesn't take many precautions about being noticed.

also, the above character has done me the favor of having these assassins employed by some fiend-worsihpping cult. so they easily have the resources to track him.

as for the other character, the tyrant also has the resources to track him if necessary.

so I'm just kinda curious at what point I can throw something this brutal at them and it not completely obliterate a character and/or look like I'm trying to single a player out.




as for the Kython itself, I don't plan on sending it after them yet, I need to work kythons back into the story before that happens... and the situation hasn't solidified enough to comment on quite yet.

however, that group DOES have several major recurring enemies...

[ClothedInVelvet]

Make them roll spot checks to see someone following them. Do they stay at an inn? Break down the door do their room in the middle of the night (Ringwraiths in FotR). No one's wearing armor, haven't gotten spells yet, sounds like a great ambush.

Cheap-shotting a guy in a bar is low, unless they at least get sense-motive checks and such.

[RedWarrior0]

Take the backstory they gave. That tyrant is a member of the fiend-worshiping cult.

Make the assassin(s) drop down from the ceiling. Nobody looks at the ceiling.

Also, random spot checks with results like "You notice something dark moving in the trees" on successes gives a fun way to play with them. Lead them on with stuff like this, make them think someone's following them, then BAM! You get a Paladin of Tyranny in Shining Armor bearing down on them while they all look for someone from behind.

Even better if, instead of taking my advice earlier about the tyrant being a member of the fiend worshiping cult, you have the two assassin groups not realizing their common foe and going into combat with each other.

Another alternative, which works if the tyrant is a cultist. Have a serial killer, completely unrelated to either backstory or the plot in general, target those two. ((In the end he turns out to be just a hobo or something))

[tyckspoon]

An Assassin is a minimum level 6 character (assuming you want to use Assassin, distinct from 'some guy who was sent to kill him'.) With appropriate gear and good feat selection, that should be a very rough and near-unwinnable fight for a solo character (try one of the skill tricks/feats to conceal spellcasting, so he can get off an undetected True Strike the round before he makes his attack..) Even if the Death Attack fails, the Assassin's target is probably sucking down a 4d6 (assuming 'natural' entry of Rogue 5 into Assassin) poisoned Sneak Attack as the first hit of the fight. It probably won't drop the target outright, but unless the rest of the party can intervene very quickly the Assassin can probably finish him off (or run away, Disguise Self into a different appearance, and show up again as somebody else to make another attempt later on.)

The Kython.. will probably slaughter the party in a straight up fight. Unless they're way more optimized than that class rundown suggests, a night ambush feels like it'd be a near certain TPK; Kythons are pretty dang nasty without the advantages of stealth. In an ambush scenario, it's nearly guaranteed to kill one party member (stealth near to party, Charge chosen victim in surprise round, tear victim apart with 5 attacks.) I wouldn't throw that one at them until it's at least an equal-level encounter, maybe level +1.

[Bob the DM]

As any of my players will attest, I'm constantly trying to kill them and there is no promises that they will be facing anything close to a level appropriate encounter at any time in the game (sometimes plot requires a n 18+ to be rolled on a turning check for the party to live) :D. However, I would never send people out to kill them out of the blue and for no reason, althought out of the blue no reason they are AWARE of, that's a different story. ;)

What you need to know is A. Who is behind it? B. Why now? C. Who is going to do the deed?

'B' is the most important. Having the pc's targeted for termination is a GREAT plot hook. As long as the danger is real, and theoretically survivable. :). There is a specific mention in the gather information skill dc about avoiding notice while gathering said info, so it's clear that there is the possibility of them knowing that someone has been asking around. If the attack comes totally out of the blue, the pc's might first wonder about their last adventure. Has the group recently done something to piss someone off? Is that connection a red herring?

An assassination is a great plot when it's a notable figure, but it's even better when it's the pc's who are the targets so don't wimp out of the plot. Decide who is behind it, specifically why/why now and lastly who will do the deed (and who will try after they fail). Make it interesting, but make it dangerous. No one REALLY cares if someone is out to get them if they're not actually in danger. If you're serious about assassinations and the assassin has real knowledge of the pc's in any way (not just dm knowledge), then ypou should plan out a proper attack to kill the targets and try your damnedest to win. Nothing says "okay, let's find out who that guy was working for and why they want us dead", like a very real near death/raising from the dead (the level 5 version), experience.

[Pika...]

I am in a similar position. One player wanted to really mess with a powerful being, and well next session that being is sending an assassination style attack targeting only that PC. He most likely will wine, but he got want he asked for and I run games realistic. :smallconfused:

[ClothedInVelvet]

I am in a similar position. One player wanted to really mess with a powerful being, and well next session that being is sending an assassination style attack targeting only that PC. He most likely will wine, but he got want he asked for and I run games realistic. :smallconfused:

Wait. Did he mess with it? Or did he just mention it in a party discussion? Because sending an assassin because he mentioned it would seem to be a fairly extreme abuse of DM power.

On the other hand, if he went banging on the door of the Captain of the Guard and shouted about corruption and necromancy going on in his house, I could see an assassin going after him.

[ImperatorK]

I am in a similar position. One player wanted to really mess with a powerful being, and well next session that being is sending an assassination style attack targeting only that PC. He most likely will wine, but he got want he asked for and I run games realistic. :smallconfused:
Runing realistic is fine, but at least warn the PC somehow. It's not fun when you have no chance of defending yourself. Also, what level are the PCs and what CR is the "assassin"?

[awa]

kythons will probably wipe the party in a fair fight much less an ambush they have really high ac (27) and deals okay damage. if it attack while they are asleep, prone with out their armor that's a death sentence for one character even if it just attacks

[Bob the DM]

Fair is overrated. Story is supreme. If your pc's don't understand that, you need a new group. ;)
Seriously thought, the only thing you need to worry about is where is it going. If the story payoff is good enough, you can have a dragon swoop down and eat a player out of the blue and they'll love it.

[ClothedInVelvet]

They really don't take precautions? They think they're being hunted by assassins and they're not taking precautions? Sorry I'm getting hung up on this. I'm getting more and more accepting of the cheap-shot concept.

My players trip the door, alarm the halls, sleep in closets, etc. And that's when they don't even think anyone's following them.

[big teej]

An Assassin is a minimum level 6 character (assuming you want to use Assassin, distinct from 'some guy who was sent to kill him'.) With appropriate gear and good feat selection, that should be a very rough and near-unwinnable fight for a solo character (try one of the skill tricks/feats to conceal spellcasting, so he can get off an undetected True Strike the round before he makes his attack..) Even if the Death Attack fails, the Assassin's target is probably sucking down a 4d6 (assuming 'natural' entry of Rogue 5 into Assassin) poisoned Sneak Attack as the first hit of the fight. It probably won't drop the target outright, but unless the rest of the party can intervene very quickly the Assassin can probably finish him off (or run away, Disguise Self into a different appearance, and show up again as somebody else to make another attempt later on.)

The Kython.. will probably slaughter the party in a straight up fight. Unless they're way more optimized than that class rundown suggests, a night ambush feels like it'd be a near certain TPK; Kythons are pretty dang nasty without the advantages of stealth. In an ambush scenario, it's nearly guaranteed to kill one party member (stealth near to party, Charge chosen victim in surprise round, tear victim apart with 5 attacks.) I wouldn't throw that one at them until it's at least an equal-level encounter, maybe level +1.

hm.... I feel I may need to re-read the Assassin's capabilities, as that is a tad much for the party at the moment. I might even go so far to warn the player ooc if I decide to be this brutal about it's implementation.

which granted, is well within my rights to do so, this is a FIENDISH CULT for cyring out loud, they're not ones to pull punches.

as for the kython.
you've hit upon many of the reasons why that encounter is going to be very far into the future (somewhere in the neighborhood of maybe level 8 or 10, pending a re-read of impaler stats)


also, for the record, (I think I read some post that made me think I was unclear)

the Kython and the assassins are two entirley different groups, much less different parties.


kythons will probably wipe the party in a fair fight much less an ambush they have really high ac (27) and deals okay damage. if it attack while they are asleep, prone with out their armor that's a death sentence for one character even if it just attacks

...how much would this change given a higher level?

the party is currently at level 5, and the kythons were going to remake their appearence in the next arc (6-10) at around level 8.

meaning that impalers should be dispatched after them at around 9 or 10, depending on just how much of a nuiscance the party makes of themselves...

[Bob the DM]

Aw, come on. Don't fall into the trap of level appropriate encounters!!! That's when the world feels real, when the situations don't actually line up with the player'power level.

[Arbane]

Aw, come on. Don't fall into the trap of level appropriate encounters!!! That's when the world feels real, when the situations don't actually line up with the player'power level.

Not everybody likes having to make up new characters every other session.

[ImperatorK]

Aw, come on. Don't fall into the trap of level appropriate encounters!!! That's when the world feels real, when the situations don't actually line up with the player'power level.
In that case what stops the BBEG to just kill his much more weaker enemies personally? I'm not saying when they are 1st level, but what if he's 20 level and they are twarting his plans from 1st to 10th level? He should figure out that sending his underlings isn't going to cut it and that soon enough they will be a threat to him.

[Tvtyrant]

at the risk of sounding snarky (and I don't mean too)

so there are no competent assassins in the world capable of actually doing their job where the PCs are concerned? :smallconfused:

I doubt that is the message you intended but....
that's sorta how I read it.



Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong and Fidel Castro mate. Assassination rarely succeeds because any tiny thing that goes wrong will get you killed. If a normal house dog is around suddenly your very likely to be discovered, and then killed.

[Elana]

Well, an Assasin can be more powerfull than the PCs.
But "You go to sleep and never wake up" makes for a bad story.
So something should alarm them.
And if they can't hope to win in a fight, they should have at least one escape route.
(And you can it make hurt, like being forced to leave their stuff behind. Regaining their material wealth can be a nice side quest)

Just make sure that they realize how outclassed they are in time.

[Doc Roc]

Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong and Fidel Castro mate. Assassination rarely succeeds because any tiny thing that goes wrong will get you killed. If a normal house dog is around suddenly your very likely to be discovered, and then killed.

And before someone yells that magic makes this go away, trust me when I say magic makes it worse. However, while assassinations don't always work, massacres do. Nothing says I love you like Angry Archmages: Now With 1000% More Mages! Get your holiday edition now. Or yesterday.

[RedWarrior0]

Real life assassins don't have Alter Self, or any other nice little things like that. Or the privilege of having targets who don't expect a thing.

As a counterpoint to 2 posters ago: OBL. Imagine if he didn't take steps to avoid detection. Assassinating him would have been ridiculously easy. Besides, assassination attempts on those folks involved active movement in an enemy territory full of people "willing" to protect and/or fight for the target. And the would-be assassins didn't have Enchantment (Compulsion) and whatnot.


And before someone yells that magic makes this go away, trust me when I say magic makes it worse. However, while assassinations don't always work, massacres do. Nothing says I love you like Angry Archmages: Now With 1000% More Mages! Get your holiday edition now. Or yesterday.

Magic doesn't make it go away, unless your PCs aren't paranoid at all.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Aw, come on. Don't fall into the trap of level appropriate encounters!!! That's when the world feels real, when the situations don't actually line up with the player'power level.

Is your game Gantz?

[Seffbasilisk]

Too cruel? No. Multiple mentions of assassins, and they take no precautions? They deserve to be drowned in their soup.

I'd personally use a CR one lower than the party's ECL, so they have a fighting chance verse a trained professional who is sculpting an entire encounter just to his/her/it's favor.

[ImperatorK]

Even if the assassination would be successful, it doesn't have to be permament.

[Doc Roc]

Is your game Gantz?

I.... You...

Dear AtlanteanTroll,
You are a monarch among bipeds.
Cordially,
Jake

[awa]

A what level the party can beat a kython varies a lot by optimization a kythons biggest advantage is their really high ac. if the party needs 16 or higher to hit its probably to tough. theirs a lot of things that can affect an assassination such as are they going into the fight fully rested or after a long day of adventuring. how much time if any do sleeping characters need to get to combat readiness (for example how long does it take to get out of a bedroll/ don armor/ or god forbid put magic gear on) how many people on watch and will it attack the guy on watch or sneak past him to try and kill a sleeping target will it use hit and run tactics charge in surprise round use its initiative of +9 and 50 speed to run away so it can come back a little bit latter to try again. all these thing can massively affect it's cr

[Lord Bingo]

Why not just start out with sending a bunch of thugs to kill the character? I mean, thee party is relatively low level and what ever they did to piss off someone cannot have been too bad. Why waste your money on a full blown assassin if three thugs from the local bar will do it for a trifle amount?

[Bob the DM]

Is your game Gantz?

I don't understand what that means.

[big teej]

They really don't take precautions? They think they're being hunted by assassins and they're not taking precautions? Sorry I'm getting hung up on this. I'm getting more and more accepting of the cheap-shot concept.

My players trip the door, alarm the halls, sleep in closets, etc. And that's when they don't even think anyone's following them.

well, they're new....

VERY new... and the one guy who ISN'T totally completely newb doesn't have a DMing style that lends itself to brutality, so he'd never expect it.

and by VERY new I mean they're 3rd 3.x edition session is today....


Aw, come on. Don't fall into the trap of level appropriate encounters!!! That's when the world feels real, when the situations don't actually line up with the player'power level.

normally I wouldn't, but like I said... their VERY new.

wait, are you talking about the Assassin or the Impaler?




Why not just start out with sending a bunch of thugs to kill the character? I mean, thee party is relatively low level and what ever they did to piss off someone cannot have been too bad. Why waste your money on a full blown assassin if three thugs from the local bar will do it for a trifle amount?

according to the Tieflings background, this cult tried to sacrifice him. and he escaped. so they're uber-pissed.
and their stated goal is "he dies, either on the altar or in the alley" or some such.

as for the dwarf knight, I'm still playing with the idea of sicking assassin's on him due to the specifics of his background (like the phrase "tyrant is unaware he still lives" or something like that)

[onthetown]

If you're going to have them killed in their sleep:

Make them able to wake up (watchdog idea was good). Make the battle tough. They're a group of 4 - 5? If it's a group of assassins, the leader could be 6 or 7 and the other assassins would have to be at least level 6 (PrC requirements). Give them lots of resources so that they can set up a quick trap or organize themselves. After all, this is part of backstory -- you don't kill off your players because of their backstory, it just looks like you're punishing them for being creative. They should be able to win this battle without much planning but with some good rolls.

If it's just one assassin, bump up the level a little bit because the group is big enough to handle it. If you want him to be a recurring villain, hold back until the party has him whittled down (but don't hold back too much -- you want this to feel dangerous) and then make him run back to his superior to complain about losing.

TL;DR: Make it tough but not impossible, and give them a chance to win so that you're not punishing them for backstory.

[Pika...]

Wait. Did he mess with it? Or did he just mention it in a party discussion? Because sending an assassin because he mentioned it would seem to be a fairly extreme abuse of DM power.

On the other hand, if he went banging on the door of the Captain of the Guard and shouted about corruption and necromancy going on in his house, I could see an assassin going after him.

He went banging on a Red Dragon's door. An Ancient Wyrm he later learned, who he is constantly talking about taking down at level 6...

Also, he helped cut off one of his claws/hands, so....




Runing realistic is fine, but at least warn the PC somehow. It's not fun when you have no chance of defending yourself. Also, what level are the PCs and what CR is the "assassin"?

Oh he will see the flying spelljammer bone ship coming, but he will have no clue what the "real" treat is. Sorry, but they made no plans to get warned if the dragon sent someone, and have not prepared themselves for an attack of any kind.

And the CR will be appropriate.

[Pika...]

Aw, come on. Don't fall into the trap of level appropriate encounters!!! That's when the world feels real, when the situations don't actually line up with the player'power level.

Agreed. Sometimes this is useful, a must, or even required.

[McSmack]

They're noobs, so doing something that dramatic in their first few games could have a big effect on if/how they play the game in the future. Killing them in their sleep is a good way to get them to not have creative backstories any more. Or perhaps have them not want to play any more.

For experienced players I'd say yeah, go for it. They're unprepared and the have it coming.

But for inexperienced players...I'd use scare tactics to get them on the paranoia train.

Perhaps the BBEG who wants revenge wants them toyed with first. Have the assassin hunt them. Picking off friendly NPC's, and leaving body parts for them to find. The PC's wake up to a head on a spike in the middle of camp, or they wake up with a necklace of ears around their necks or something grizzly like that.

They'll start take precautions really quick.

[big teej]

They're noobs, so doing something that dramatic in their first few games could have a big effect on if/how they play the game in the future. Killing them in their sleep is a good way to get them to not have creative backstories any more. Or perhaps have them not want to play any more.

For experienced players I'd say yeah, go for it. They're unprepared and the have it coming.

But for inexperienced players...I'd use scare tactics to get them on the paranoia train.

Perhaps the BBEG who wants revenge wants them toyed with first. Have the assassin hunt them. Picking off friendly NPC's, and leaving body parts for them to find. The PC's wake up to a head on a spike in the middle of camp, or they wake up with a necklace of ears around their necks or something grizzly like that.

They'll start take precautions really quick.

I approve of this immensly,

one dead priest with a note stuck through his eyes coming up!

[byaku rai]

If these players have specifically called out assassins as part of their backstories, with the warning that you will be using everything there, and aren't paranoid, they deserve to be shown the error of their ways. That doesn't necessarily have to result in death. You could just send a high-CR encounter to beat them into the ground a bit, scare them, before they manage to win it. If this is their third session with you as DM, they probably don't know how brutal you're prepared to be. This seems like an excellent moment to educate them. If it happens for the right reasons, you can even probably get away with killing a character. After all, there's always Raise Dead.

[Doughnut Master]

I agree with fitting the warning into the assassin's tactics. Perhaps in the lead-up, the assassin could mess with the party to try and weaken them. Maybe give your little killer a dreaming blindfold and torment the party with nightmares night after night. Try to poison them first before going in for the kill. It'll make life rough on your PCs, but if they're smart, it'll give them an opportunity to come up with a counter.

[Seffbasilisk]

Or the Assassins could just use the 'Paralysis' option of Death Attack, and beat them unconscious, then drag them off (double pay for them brought in alive) for the cult to sacrifice?

[big teej]

Or the Assassins could just use the 'Paralysis' option of Death Attack, and beat them unconscious, then drag them off (double pay for them brought in alive) for the cult to sacrifice?

also an excellent idea >=]

[Mr.Smashy]

Or the Assassins could just use the 'Paralysis' option of Death Attack, and beat them unconscious, then drag them off (double pay for them brought in alive) for the cult to sacrifice?

HaHaHa,
"Kill you? Why do that, when the torture leading up to death is so much sweeter."

[Zeikstraal]

I'm planning to sent an assasin after my players too. But I will do it without combat, only mind games.
Example: the BBEG sends a Messanger with an Idiotic message wich violates all their motivations, code of conduct etc.

Party does not go to him.

BBEG sends an other message with threats.

When the party is at an Inn. When they wake up, say that theres an apple with a carving and a feather in it (or something else thats realy out of place) next on their pillow.
Now they know that the Bbeg is a strong dude and has power. They know that their was an Assasin in their room who could kill them. That a stranger was breathing in their neck with a wicked smile an his face carving the apple. And they didnt even know it. And they had no way of defending themselves, wich makes them feel much weaker.

That way you can scare them much more instead of combat. Let them realy fear for their PCs lives.

[RedWarrior0]

I said it once, I'm saying it again. The tyrant needs to be a member of this cult.

[big teej]

sooo...

I had a chance to talk with the Tiefling Duskblade's player today.

-hangs head in shame-

I was way off the mark with what he had in mind, I was under the impression the cult had a stance of "capture, if not that, kill."

I misunderstood.

his death is only meaningful to the cult if he dies on the altar. this allows me to use the far less lethal option of the Crimson Scourge from Cityscape. as well as bloodhounds from.... Masters of the wild or Song and Silence.

as for the tyrant, I didn't get a chance to talk to that player about how big an issue wants that to be.

so the tyrant being part of the cult is definitly on the table, but I haven't made a call on it yet.


also... tiefling totally has a vial of Kython Broodling venom now. I'm interested in seeing what he plans to do with it.

[awa]

how many kythons did you end up using?

[big teej]

how many kythons did you end up using?

well, due to half the party having a curfew, the game ended right as they got to the cave.


they slew the 4 Kython hunters with relative ease, they managed to sneak up on them (right until the entered blindsight range)
and due to having lots of anti-toxin handy, the poison didn't slow them down to much.

so far, nobody's failed a save against that (very!) nasty kython poison. but I figure it's just a matter of time.

next session we'll be picking up inside the cave, within about 15 minutes I expect them to be dealing with the Juvies and the broodlings.

so we'll see how they handle those and the adult that's guarding/running the nest.

I'm looking forward to the party's reactions to the Adult's 24 AC haha. because so far everything they've encountered has been a mook or a brute type creature

skaven, goblins, ogres, rats,
the two most lethal things they've encountered thus far are an Evil Incarante (level 6) and the Kython adult next session.

should be fun :smallbiggrin: