[PF] My DM says 2 traits + Hero Points/Anti-hero = OP.

[Fenryr]

So, hello! Title says everything. According to him, to have two traits and Hero Points (or the Anti-Hero option) is overpower. He says we are stacking too much (he even mentioned the Kobold dragonwrought as an example, which in my opinion is something different). For him, the solution is to remove one or another, or even make all the CR 4 or 5 levels higher.

What ya say, peeps?

[Ozymandias]

"Overpowered" compared to what?

[Fenryr]

"Overpowered" compared to what?

He gave 15 points in the campaign: standard fantasy. Maybe he thinks it's OP for the type of campaign he's doin' (he wrote it).

[ImperatorK]

Err... He's the DM. It's up to him if you use those options or not.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Err... He's the DM. It's up to him if you use those options or not.

Yeah. Those are options that the DM can choose to use, just like the action points introduced in Eberron. They're not mandatory.

[Fenryr]

I know they're not mandatory. But maybe he is overreacting? Also, 'm trying to persuade him to let both options. 'm not complaining, 'm asking for opinions to see if maybe 'm the one who's wrong.

[Hiro Protagonest]

We need more details then.

[DukeofDellot]

If he said "That's more power than I'd like you to have in this campaign"... and you're not complaining...

[ImperatorK]

I know they're not mandatory. But maybe he is overreacting? Also, 'm trying to persuade him to let both options. 'm not complaining, 'm asking for opinions to see if maybe 'm the one who's wrong.
You're not wrong, but when the DM says something like that it is wise to heed his decision.

[tyckspoon]

Personally? I think he's being silly. Unless they've printed a "gain a free class level that does not count against your ECL" trait since the last time I looked at them, traits do nothing extremely powerful. Some of them are better than others (+2 initiative/half-strength Practiced Spellcaster are clearly better than +1 Knowledge [specific type] check/+1 to hit with AoO with unarmed strikes) but they're not going to be game breaking or even notably change a character's power level. The Hero Points I can only really see being broken if he's giving you far, far too many at one time- you're supposed to get 1+1 per levelup unless you put special effort into having more, and even if you want to stockpile them you're limited to 3, so you're encouraged to use them.

[Rixx]

I wouldn't say both of them combined are worth a +4 or +5 CR boost. If you use both of them, it'd probably be a +1 boost tops.

If he's using 15 point buy standard fantasy, I think using both traits and hero points is a nice boost to survivability at lower levels. The traits become kind of irrelevant at higher levels.

[Fenryr]

No complains, just my comments. He also told me to prove him wrong if possible. We like to discuss and see the whole picture, so any of us could be wrong. In the end, of course, he has the final word.


We're a party of 5 people. In the creation of the characters, he allowed the Anti-Hero and two traits. Then, suddenly, he says it's too much. Stacking, he says, and mentions the Kobold dragonwrought like an example of stacking and OP. Also said that at higher levels, it would make a lot of difference and power.

The five of us got the Anti-hero option, for several reasons. Me and a friend because we think our characters are on their own, no destiny, nor fate involved (and maybe a bit of powergaming). The others three, I don't know. I bet powergaming because they're not that much role players. I could be wrong.

My character is a Paladin with Power Attack (1st lvl) and Toughness (Anti-hero) and the traits of Intimidate (+1 and class skill) and Survival (same). Right now we have two Paladins (including me), an Alchemist, a Summoner and a Fighter.

I think he got sensible because in the last session we beat the odds and did some heroic stuff. All proud and smiling, he said "Now you've gained 1 Hero point". We answered "We can't use them, we got the feat". He got in a denial stage and got defensive. Then said he would check it again. Some days later, I got a phone call and says what I've explained here.


Thank you.

[ImperatorK]

Traits can be strong. Think about Adopted. Say that your half-orc was adopted by humans and you either get a bonus feat or +2 to one chosen attribute.

[Fenryr]

Traits can be strong. Think about Adopted. Say that your half-orc was adopted by humans and you either get a bonus feat or +2 to one chosen attribute.

I think that Adoped lets you get other racial traits, like World Traveler (human) or Freedom Fighter (halfing). Not actually give you the bonus of another race.

[ImperatorK]

I think that Adoped lets you get other racial traits, like World Traveler (human) or Freedom Fighter (halfing). Not actually give you the bonus of another race.
Bonuses to attributes and human bonus feat are racial traits. Adopted does not specify which racial traits you can take. :smallamused:

[tyckspoon]

Bonuses to attributes and human bonus feat are racial traits.

yeeeaaah.. good luck getting that one by your DM. Especially because you're talking about racial traits and Adopted talks about race traits, which are a specific category of Traits inside the trait system. One of those times where a minor difference in wording has very specific rules implications.

Edit response to edit: In short, it does specify, because it says you can take Race Traits and not Racial Traits.

[ImperatorK]

yeeeaaah.. good luck getting that one by your DM. Especially because you're talking about racial traits and Adopted talks about race traits, which are a specific category of Traits inside the trait system. One of those times where a minor difference in wording has very specific rules implications.

Edit response to edit: In short, it does specify, because it says you can take Race Traits and not Racial Traits.
So which would you allow?
Damn! Now I understand! THOSE race traits. Geez. Me and my playmates where geting it all wrong. Damn.
But to be fair it wasn't me who came up with this "brilliant" idea. :smalltongue:

[Griffin]

Hi all!, thanks for the responses, I'm on the same group Fenryr is, I want to add tough, that most of us has decided to use the "antihero" option, which gives you an extra feat instead of the hero points use, I have check hero points over and over again and altough they are not that powerful as Action points are, they are indeed quite and advantage that I can say safely, is bigger than an advantage a feat may give you

so, all in all we think that 2 traits + Antihero (extra feat) is not that OP