Alignment Question: What alignment would this character be?

[Titanium Fox]

Alright, so I have a character I'm playing starting in the fall. However, a few friends and I have been debating this character's alignment. RAW, he needs to be some form of Evil, however the DM has been known to waive alignment restrictions with good fluff.

D&D 3.5 - Elf Duskblade 13 / Ur-Priest 2 / Mystic Theurge 5
He is an elf that has been trained as a duskblade by those before him. However, in said campaign, there will be some massive threat that looms over the entire world. He will set off, at the naysay of his mentors and elders, who claim that he is endangering the clan by leaving; and attempt to take on the threat that faces the world head on.

Upon reaching the OOC requirements for Ur-Priest, his logic will essentially be "...I need more power than I can gain myself to thwart this." He will look to the Gods, who forsake those with the arcane powers he weilds, and before slipping into trance for the first time to attempt to steal their powers, comit himself by stating "I need this power for a worthy cause, yet the Gods do not offer their divine favor to those who do not grovel at their feet; restrict themselves by the morals that they hold, and the path that they walk. I refuse to do so. These nuances and petty customs stand in the way of the quickest path to the power that this world so desperately needs. Options come off of the table, more people die, more people will needlessly suffer at the cruelty of those who fancy themselvs divine. I will take what I need, and there is nothing that can be done to stop me."

So, in the D&D world, I would classify his intentions as Chaotic Good. However, the act of stealing power from a Diety is "an act beyond reckoning" as RAW, so the question is, where would you place him on the Alignment Scale? Weigh his intentions or actions more heavily? Would you classify the act of stealing power from a God, no matter the reason or intention as Evil? Or would he view himself as Good, yet in the eyes of the world be Evil?

[Sir Enigma]

I would say the character thinks of himself as Chaotic Good, but Detect Alignment will reveal that he is actually Chaotic Neutral - using potentially-evil acts (maybe he's actually weakening the gods by his theft and making it harder for them to assist the fight?) for good ends. I'd also say that his mentality gives him the possibility to slide into Evil, given the right circumstances - if he takes this mentality of "do whatever is necessary" too far, he could become a Well-Intentioned Extremist type of Evil.

[hamishspence]

Going by Champions of Ruin, it's quite possible for an Evil character to view themselves as Good- and/or to have good intentions that are overall outweighed by their Evil methods.

Stealing is traditionally morally wrong according to BoVD- but how wrong may depend on the victim and the intentions. "Stealing from the needy" is cited as a corrupt act- and a fairly serious one- in Fiendish Codex 2.

But a god may not qualify as "the needy".

If the DM is prepared to waive the "must be evil" restriction- then there is a limited amount of support for the notion that a Neutral character can balance evil acts with good intentions and maintain their Neutral alignment- primarily in Heroes of Horror.

Or, that stealing from the "rich" or the "undeserving" to support the needy, is nonevil- and valid for a CG character- Complete Scoundrel.

[Yora]

On Law or Chaos, your description has not much information. Could be either, or neutral.

The whole Evil thing hangs on the question if taking power from the gods without their permission is evil. And I think that depends a lot on the setting your campaign takes place in. If he is stealing something, that he would also be granted if he entered the service of a deity, than it could reasonably be called evil. He could also become a divine warrior and take levels in the cleric class to gain the same access to divine power. Or divine power is actually part of the deities and they agree to give some of their own essence to their priests to further their goals. Then an urpriest would be a parasite sucking out some of the essence of deities. The actual damage would be neglible, but it's still taking without permission.

However, if divine power is something seperate from the gods themselves, and faith in the gods (or even a cause) only allows a priest to tap into this energy, than everyone is free to take some of the energy, as it does belong to no one and there's an infinite amount of it. There wouldn't be anything evil about urpriests.
However, in that case, there's no reason for anyone not be an urpriest and also worship a deity as well. An urpriest and a cleric wouldn't be any different at all in regard to their relationship with the gods. I think the class only really works in settings, where they drain a vital resource from the deities.

[McSmack]

It really depends on the motivations of the character. Most folks wouldn't say that siphoning off an evil diety's power and using it to protect innocents was an evil act.

In your particular case this character's motivations stem from a desire to protect the world and its inhabitants. So I agree with you that the best alignment in this case is chaotic good. And besides, technically "an act beyond reckoning" isn't listed as being good or evil.

The evil prereq really doesn't seem to fit here and looks like it's really just there for fluff reasons, because the designers decided that the only way this class works is if you despise the gods.

I personally think that's bunk, and the designers even allude to this in the description, stating that it would also work well for divine casters who've lost their connection to their deity for some reason.

Personally I'd talk to the DM about that evil prereq, and see if you can get that waived.

Or just go with a godless cleric. RAW you're allowed to worship ideals and whatnot instead of a diety, with your divine power coming from some spirit who agrees with you philosophically.

[Yora]

As Duskblade 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 you would also gain 7th level cleric spells and a Duskblade caster level of 17th, which is just 1 lower than the original build. You would lose the Duskblade class features from level 8 to 13, but if there's something really important, you could take fewer levels in Mystic Theurge for a lower Cleric CL and the same Duskblade CL.

[Taelas]

Rings strongly of Chaotic, to me.

Divine power isn't actually required to come from deities at all. The Ur-Priest steals divine power from deities because they despise gods, not because it is the only way to obtain said power.

So in my opinion, since he is stealing it unnecessarily while telling himself it is necessary, he is deluding himself. He is probably Chaotic Neutral, if your DM waives the Evil requirement.

[DonDuckie]

I would say the character is neutral evil or chaotic evil.

He feels a duty but goes against elders and gods alike. No lawful.

Depending on the world: I wouldn't allow an Urpriest to select from who to steal. And he is not just stealing power from good gods, but from the priests and clerics it was intended for who would do good. He is not good.

And he proclaims: "I need this power" and "I wil take what I need". the first being subjective, meaning going through with the second is evil.

whether neutral or chaotic evil, I would look at his smaller actions. But the whole "I know better than everybody and their gods" - I lean towards chaotic evil - selfish, and more than willing to potentially sacrifice others for his powers.

[hamishspence]

Despising the gods is not inherently tied to evil alignment- the Athar in Planar Handbook do, and their PRC, the Defiant, does not seem to have a restriction to Evil alignment.

It might be the combination of "despises gods" + "steals their power" that does it.

[Yora]

That's also something that depends a lot on the setting and the writer. Most of D&D does not seem to be written with any specific setting in mind, so you very often find pieces of fluff that contradict each other when regarded as being the universal explaination for all settings.

[Yorae]

If the justification for taking Ur-Priest is simply to satisfy the flavor and not something you really want/need as an integral part of the character, remember that refluffing is always an option. Ur-Priests could easily be concepted as a different type of divine caster that does not necessarily steal their spells without changing any mechanics of the class.

[Titanium Fox]

If the justification for taking Ur-Priest is simply to satisfy the flavor and not something you really want/need as an integral part of the character, remember that refluffing is always an option. Ur-Priests could easily be concepted as a different type of divine caster that does not necessarily steal their spells without changing any mechanics of the class.

Well, a part of the core of his character is that by worshiping a diety you are afforded the power much more slowly (mechanically represented: Ur-Priest has 9th level casting by 10, and Cleric gets it by 20. Some divine classes don't get it at all), and that in order to do what needs to be done, he needs it significantly faster than such. Re-fluffing Ur-Priest would in turn change that little bit, which goes deeper into the core of his character.