Help making Swordsage/Rogue

[McClintock]

We are nearing the end of RHoD and it wont take us long to get to lvl 20 from there. This is when we usually move into another character set. I have been toying with the idea of a conjurer for some time now, but I think i may change. What do you all think of a swordsage/rogue? I was thinking of doing the UA swordsage and playing a monk/thief type character. We use 32pt buy and have some limitations to books, but I am open to suggestions.

[Keld Denar]

Its very synergistic. Generally, you'll drop a couple of SS levels on a mostly Rogue chassis or drop a couple of Rogue levels on a mostly SS chassis. Which would you be more interested in?

Also, I'd assume you are planning on TWFing? Duel Short Swords? Also, Shadow Hand with some Desert Wind is gonna be your best choice for schools to learn maneuvers from. Shadow Hand gives you some great ways to trigger Sneak Attack (like Cloak of Deception), while Desert Wind gives you that (Distracting Ember) and some mobility and burst damage (Burning/Searing/Inferno Blade).

Great feats would be Craven, Staggering Strike, Darkstalker (assuming you are hiding?), TWFing, etc.

[McClintock]

I was actually thinking unarmed, but do you think weapons are better? what about doing kukris instead of short swords? I am playing a dervish this game and wanted to try something different. Long story short i dont want this to feel like a re-written dervish.

[Draz74]

Long story short i dont want this to feel like a re-written dervish.

Then don't go for kukris. :smallsmile:

Keld was recommending short swords because they work with Shadow Blade. Extreme DEX focus is a popular (but optional) route for Swordsages.

Unarmed is perfectly viable, though, especially if your DM will allow Necklaces of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species, but actually not overpowered).

[Keld Denar]

See edits above.

Kukiris are only gonna be decent if you have Craven. Most of your damage is gonna be in the form of bonus dice, which never multiply. Having a high crit threat range doesn't really benefit you much there. If you are taking Craven, they are static damage and multiply, making it a decent choice. Shadow Blade (+dex to damage) only works with Daggers, UASs, Short Swords, and Spiked Chains, meaning you can't benefit from it with Kukiris.

You get weapon proficiencies from Rogue levels, so nothing says you can't wield weapons ordinarily, and have your UAS available if you get disarmed or need to operate "weaponless".

Weapons in general are easier to augment than natural attacks, as far as enhancements and other enchantments go. Things like Deadly Precision, Collision, and Wounding are excellent bonuses for your type of character.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Even if you are using weapons I don't see a reason to not go Unarmed Swordsage. If you are multiclassing you are not even loosing anything (the light amour proficiency is covered by rogue levels) and as Unarmed Strikes are Shadow Hand weapons you can also apply shadow blade to them.

Great for those occasions you aren't allowed to bring weapons and you are not an old man who needs his walking stick :smalltongue:

Edit: Swordsag'ed >_< in a thread about swordsages

[Person_Man]

If Tome of Battle is on the table, I would prefer to use strait Swordsage. Access to more and higher level maneuvers and stances are almost always more interesting and useful then whatever bonus to damage you might get out of Sneak Attack. I would only play a Rogue/Swordsage if you're playing in a relatively low level campaign and you absolutely want Trapfinding, early Evasion, or UMD.

Anywho, I suggest taking Insightful Strike (Book of Exalted Deeds) to get your Wisdom bonus To-Hit with simple weapons.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A level two dip into rogue is pretty nice, you only loose 1 IL and you get a lot of goodies:

Access to UMD, arguably the strongest skill in the game
Evasion is nice, and when you get Swordsage evasion you can trade it for spell reflection (a swordsage will have better than average Touch AC so they will probably benefit from it more than other classes)
Always on sneack attack, so they can get craven without locking themselves into Assassin Stance
A slight bump in skill points.


Which is worth it IMO

[Keld Denar]

I agree with the above points, especially the always on SA, which, if you REALLY want to get Curmudgeony about it, Craven requires the Sneak Attack class feature, which technically Assassin's Stance is not. The feat is worded dumb, and you can generally ignore that dumbness in a manner that is uniform with every other Sneak Attack reliant ability in the game. Poor editing is poor.

[Forbiddenwar]

Anywho, I suggest taking Insightful Strike (Book of Exalted Deeds) to get your Wisdom bonus To-Hit with simple weapons.

Or weapon finesse, since they don't stack. In fact, Dex should be your highest stat, so take weapon finesse instead.

Shadow Blade and Craven are Must Have Feats as well. (just make sure all your stances are Shadow Hand.

Don't forget the free Weapon focus Swordsages get.
Then get superior unarmed strike.

The Bamf Maneuvers and the perma invisibility maneuvers of the Shadow Hand can make a rogue jump for joy.

I recently played a UASS/rogue that had a +10 to their attack at level 3 and, though small, was doing 15 damage a hit.

I think the ideal ratio of levels is 12 UASS/8 Rogue so you can have 4d6 SA and use 8th level maneuvers and stances.

[McClintock]

starting stats for 32pt buy 10 17 14 14 10 11 (so i don't have negatives on UMD) or should i put dex to 18? and bypass cha altogether?

[Forbiddenwar]

starting stats for 32pt buy 10 17 14 14 10 11 (so i don't have negatives on UMD) or should i put dex to 18? and bypass cha altogether?

Human? or are there going to be some minuses?

[McClintock]

Was probably going to go human. not fond of elves, and halflings are too slow. Whisper gnome is a possibility though

[Forbiddenwar]

Was probably going to go human. not fond of elves, and halflings are too slow. Whisper gnome is a possibility though

Whisper gnome is great. But forget any Cha based skills. that -2 is hard to bypass. Then again, with the hit of skill points you get by cross classing, focusing on Dex based Rogue skills, which are the ones that work best for UASS anyway, will save you much trouble. Be a Dex rogue, not a fast talker rogue.

[McClintock]

10 18 16 14 14 6

are ghost sound, mage hand and message worth losing 1 dex for 10 cha?
changed wisdom to get an ac bonus

[Forbiddenwar]

10 18 16 14 14 6

are ghost sound, mage hand and message worth losing 1 dex for 10 cha?
changed wisdom to get an ac bonus

how about:
Str:10=8
Dex: 17=19
Con: 10=12
Int: 11
Wis: 16
Cha: 10=8

[Draz74]

Or weapon finesse, since they don't stack. In fact, Dex should be your highest stat, so take weapon finesse instead.

Shadow Blade and Craven are Must Have Feats as well. (just make sure all your stances are Shadow Hand.
Nah. It's funny how many people think the Swordsage has to do the Shadow Blade thing (with all its feat taxes and all its restrictions) in order to deal decent damage. Heck, just the Diamond Mind strikes alone could make them do decent damage, without any other optimization even needed.

In my book, Shadow Blade isn't really worth it unless you're going specifically for "ninja" flavor. A monk-like Swordsage (like the OP wants) is better served by more Diamond Mind and Setting Sun, less Shadow Hand (slightly).


how about:
Str:10=8
Dex: 17=19
Con: 10=12
Int: 11
Wis: 16
Cha: 10=8

Loses Whisper Gnome spell-like abilities (which are quite excellent), which is what the OP was worried about.

[Psyren]

if you REALLY want to get Curmudgeony about it

I lol'ed.

Nothing else to add, carry on :smallredface:

[Forbiddenwar]

Nah. It's funny how many people think the Swordsage has to do the Shadow Blade thing (with all its feat taxes and all its restrictions) in order to deal decent damage. Heck, just the Diamond Mind strikes alone could make them do decent damage, without any other optimization even needed.

In my book, Shadow Blade isn't really worth it unless you're going specifically for "ninja" flavor. A monk-like Swordsage (like the OP wants) is better served by more Diamond Mind and Setting Sun, less Shadow Hand (slightly).


Post confuses me. Are you comparing Shadow Blade (a feat) to Setting Sun and Diamond mind (2 martial disciplines)?

Come to think of it, while Shadow Blade does reduce MAD, allowing you to add your dex to damage, it is debatable whether or not superior unarmed strike makes for a better feat choice. Depends on how high you want to boost your Dex I guess.

As for the school, Shadow Hand: A rogue/UASS will find little better than Island of blades and Shadow Blade Technique at 1 IL. In fact the whole school feels designed for a rogue swordsage. Yes take some diamond minds (But only if you have maxed Concentration) and setting suns (I'm a fan of throwing people across the room). Swordsages get lots of maneuvers and stances, go nuts.

In short, you are right. Get strikes from diamond mind and setting suns, get stances and boosts and Bamfs from shadow hand.

However, I've only played up to 4th level. YMMV

I disagree on taking a minus to dex (your attack, your AC and your Damage) to get a few cantrips. Especially when the Save DC is laughably low (10+Cha=10 usually)
And the OP crossed that out, so I presumed that he made his own decision on the matter.

[Safety Sword]

I lol'ed.

Nothing else to add, carry on :smallredface:

He's probably stalking Keld right now...