Associated Levels

[mootoall]

My players, kindly abstain from reading this thread!

I'm trying to develop a challenging encouter for a party in the distant future, and I had a very fun idea to use Naztharune Rakshasa Swordsages to do all sorts of fun teleporting, flanking Sneak Attack shenanigans, and I was wondering if Swordsage levels were Associated Levels for Naztharune Rakshasas, and therefore if I have to raise their CR higher than it already is.

[Cog]

So you're asking if a sneaky, skillful, nimble melee class is associated for a sneaky, skillful, nimble melee opponent? I think that's a yes.

[mootoall]

Haha, that's what I thought. And, as such, its CR increases by 1 for each Swordsage level it has, right?

[Undercroft]

Yeah. Associated levels increase CR by +1 per level added.
Non-associated increase it by +1 per 2 levels added, until levels equal either starting HD or CR (i forgot which. i think it's CR but i'm open to correction) and then it increases at +1 CR per level added.

[mootoall]

Hmm, alright then. Gonna be quite a while 'til I can run that encounter then.

[Person_Man]

Rule 0: Your NPCs can do whatever you want, and you hand out whatever amount of experience you feel is appropriate after combat.

Trust me. Embracing this rule will make your life as a DM a lot easier and fun.

[mootoall]

Rule 0: Your NPCs can do whatever you want, and you hand out whatever amount of experience you feel is appropriate after combat.

Trust me. Embracing this rule will make your life as a DM a lot easier and fun.

Heh, I do like this. A lot.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Ya a good rule of thumb is if the idea of a class on a monster is at all appealing it's associated. Also swordsage is actually listed as their favored class. On the plus side I can tell you I made one at CR 13 and it made an excellent mid-boss for a lvl ten party of three (3 fairly optimized/2 near useless).

[mootoall]

I was sure that Rogue was their favored class. I'm sure they're interchangeable though, lol.

[Godskook]

Rule 0: Your NPCs can do whatever you want, and you hand out whatever amount of experience you feel is appropriate after combat.

Trust me. Embracing this rule will make your life as a DM a lot easier and fun.

I support this application of Rule 0, its one of the few I use regularly. Going "by the book" was borked already, so why even try?

[awa]

favored class is diffrent then associated class its only an unassociated class if adding levels in the class doesnt really increase the creatures power such as a ettin bard it gives a little more versatility but hes probbaly better off just hitting things

[Salanmander]

Hmm, alright then. Gonna be quite a while 'til I can run that encounter then.

Remember that they get to add 1/2 their hit-dice to their IL (or if that's restricted to only class levels, that would be a completely fair modification to make). So even one level of swordsage could dramatically increase its abilities.

[tyckspoon]

favored class is diffrent then associated class its only an unassociated class if adding levels in the class doesnt really increase the creatures power such as a ettin bard it gives a little more versatility but hes probbaly better off just hitting things

Depends on just how many levels of 'unassociated' classes you use. One of the more infamous failures of the concept involves taking a big bruiser monster that happens to also have a passable Int/Cha/Wis score and jamming it full of 'unassociated' caster levels. If you find the right mix of racial HD against class levels you can end up with something that casts spells on par or better than the party, backed up by its natural bulk and physical threat, with a CR that is officially still equal or even less than the party's level. Which means it's a 'fair' fight that shouldn't unduly threaten the party, right? Well, no, you just made a better dragon, which are notoriously and somewhat deliberately under-CR already.

[Prime32]

Depends on just how many levels of 'unassociated' classes you use. One of the more infamous failures of the concept involves taking a big bruiser monster that happens to also have a passable Int/Cha/Wis score and jamming it full of 'unassociated' caster levels. If you find the right mix of racial HD against class levels you can end up with something that casts spells on par or better than the party, backed up by its natural bulk and physical threat, with a CR that is officially still equal or even less than the party's level. Which means it's a 'fair' fight that shouldn't unduly threaten the party, right? Well, no, you just made a better dragon, which are notoriously and somewhat deliberately under-CR already.Classic example: A tarrasque wizard 48 is CR 44.

[awa]

i just said how it was supposed to be used not how it can be abused

[Godskook]

Classic example: A tarrasque wizard 48 is CR 44.

And a more practically relevant one would be a fire giant wizard 17, with a CR of 19.5

[Runestar]

And a more practically relevant one would be a fire giant wizard 17, with a CR of 19.5

I find that is actually a more fair representation of what a cr19 foe ought to look like. Classed npcs are notoriously underpowered for their cr anyways, and this disparity becomes even more telling at higher levels. You practically are forced to use all this little tricks and "shenanigans" to create credible threats that won't be one-shotted by your party. You cannot look at a fighter20 and tell me with a straight face that he is comparable to a tarrasque or black dragon in terms of challenge.

For example, a normal human wizard17 with 14 con has just 77 hp (though this could be further raised by improving his con, stacking temp hp and generally just piling on myriad of buffs and defenses). A single maximized orb of X would deal enough damage to kill him outright! No way is he cr17. To ensure he stays around long enough to actually fight back, you are all but forced to use non-associated rules. So a frost giant wiz15 would be cr17 as well. At the expense of 9th lv spells, he gets much more hp (300+), better AC and saves overall, all the better to survive that opening alpha strike from the PCs. To compensate, I wouldn't have to use other "cheap" tricks like tons of contingencies. Just 2-3 buffs and focus on attacking the PCs thereafter.

I agree that anything carried out to extremes would surely make a mockery of the system, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the non-associated rule. Yes, it can result in foes tougher than anything found in the MM, but with players becoming more optimized, existing MM foes are already becoming "too weak" for their cr anyways. So perhaps the bar needs to be raised some?

[awa]

that same wizard can just as easily one shot your parties wizard with his maximized orb spell worse he doesnt have to do another encounter in the afternoon so he can blow all his spells in one fight. keep in mind that fighter will have al ot of magic items as well the trasque is perhaps not a good comparison becuase it is higher than cr 20 and has a number of glaring blind spots an npc fighter would not have.