Build Help

[Graha013]

Hey everyone - this will be pretty clutch if anyone can help me before this weekend. Here's the short and long of it:

1. Campaign: The campaign is a 3.5 rule, core only, set in a 'Europe' with fantasy monsters. i.e. everything you can find in core, the locations are simply 'medieval Europe'. I'm not overly impressed with it..but I'm just trying to get back into playing.

2. Party: We're playing as pirates and the DM described them as CG in nature. Since I joined with my first character, they've killed the pirate captain and raided a market and sent some rhino raced people (?? yeah I don't know either) to their deaths by giving them swimming apparatus that failed after a certain depth and drowned them. So my Shoal Halfling Druid? Didn't quite fit the mold. The party consists of 2 rangers, 1 warlock, 1 sorcerer, 1 thief, 1 barbarian.

3. My build: My first thought was to go ranged attack as both rangers are two-weapon fighters. Below is my build. Since them 'theme' is aquatic and Stormwrack is the primary sourcebook for the DM, Aquatic shot is along the lines of where this guy is going.

4. Suggestions: With that build make up and the following rules, what do you think? I can probably add anything core now before my new char is introduced on Saturday. I'm sort of a power gamer in this group (but compared to the expertise on these boards...definitely humbled!), so I can effectively fill a lot of roles that are missing with a little bit of tweaking on this character. Stat roles can be changed, class, etc. Even race. I'm almost considering a character that may be able to talk/bluff/sneak our ways out of things beyond the thief, but I don't really want to upstage/duplicate what is already being done if I can help. It's obvious that range attacks, arcane, and healing, are all missing in this group.


Rules: Core only, no dragon magazine, no eberron. No psi's or undead. Build must compliment CG (or what is really turning into LE/NE) party. Emphasis on aquatic environment feasibility, above and below water. ECL 3, but throw a 4th level on there as the group has played a few sessions without me and may be higher than what I was originally told. Questions welcome otherwise to clarify my rambling:


Character:

Ticarios Raith ven'Dre
Human Ranger 2/Fighter 1

Stats: 12/18/16/14/8/6

Feats: Weapon Focus Longbow, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Defensive Archery

Class Abillities: Aquatic Humanoid Favored Enemy, Combat Style Archery: Rapid Shot

Future Feat list (things I imagined him taking as progressed): Aquatic Shot/Many Shot/Improved Rapid Shot/Far Shot/Raned Pin/Ranged Sunder/Ranged Disarm/Weapon Specialization: Longbow/Dodge/Mobility/Shot on the Run/ Ranged Weapon Mastery

Niche: Ranged everything, eventually using elvenmade longbow. His rolls for stats really limited him..


Thanks!

[Keld Denar]

By core only, you are talking about more than the PHB/DMG/MM1, right? You mention a bunch of Complete Warrior feats. That's not "core only", but core + completes or whatever. What sources DO you have available?

Your biggest challenge, as I see it, is not enough damage. 1d8+1, or 1d8+2 at close range, is not gonna cut it very far. You need a higher Str and a higher draw on your bow, or some other way to get some boost to your striking power.

[mootoall]

You don't need to cover ranged really, the Warlock should be able to handle that. If you ask me a Bard would best fit in this party, preferably with DFI for great buffs. I'm going to assume that, by Core, you mean First Party, because you mention Races of the Wild feats, Complete feats, and a race from I've got no idea (Shoal Halfling? Prolly Races of the Wild again).

I really do need your actually available sources though.

[Graha013]

Sorry - core for me is pretty much anything not homebrew and not dragon magazine. I've got everything printed by WotC as far as rules and supplement go.

Shaol Halfling is from Stormwrack, for instance.

[Keld Denar]

Ah, yea...there is a big difference. Might want to get your terminology straight so you don't confuse us poor internet monkeys. We really aren't very bright.

Anyway, moving right along...

You need bonus damage. Badly. What kind of bonus damage do you want to get?

Have you considered the possibility of Bard Archer, Cleric Archer, or Swift Hunter build?

[Graha013]

By core only, you are talking about more than the PHB/DMG/MM1, right? You mention a bunch of Complete Warrior feats. That's not "core only", but core + completes or whatever. What sources DO you have available?

Your biggest challenge, as I see it, is not enough damage. 1d8+1, or 1d8+2 at close range, is not gonna cut it very far. You need a higher Str and a higher draw on your bow, or some other way to get some boost to your striking power.

True enough, but that is the crux of any archer without an energy bow - unless it's swarming/number of shots. Going a precision damage route (a la Scout) is ineffective as well with multiclassing and the number of foes who have immunities to such attacks (although I need to reference if skirmish is affected the same as sneak attack vs. enemies without discernible anatomy, etc.)

The build I did of this same archer build at 15 does much more damage, but then again I was able to 'buy' a energy bow with some modifications to make it worthwhile. This guy doesn't have the same stats (as you mentioned) to make composite damage bonuses worthwhile, yet.

[Graha013]

Ah, yea...there is a big difference. Might want to get your terminology straight so you don't confuse us poor internet monkeys. We really aren't very bright.

Anyway, moving right along...

You need bonus damage. Badly. What kind of bonus damage do you want to get?

Have you considered the possibility of Bard Archer, Cleric Archer, or Swift Hunter build?

Cleric Archer was the first idea with him mainly because of our lack of healing in the party, but the lack of feats made it tough to make him a worthwhile archer vs. a priest with a bow/xbow. The main thought was to go beyond 'someone who picks up a bow to fight with', because every build should have a source of range and melee weaponry on them.

I've never played a Bard before - can they sing/play and fight at all? Is it a sing a round/ fight for 3/ pick up a song? Re-routing his stats so his Charisma is the 18, I could effectively dump into ..what, Wisdom and ...Str?? that might suck actually.. Though he starts to sound a bit like Elan? :P

[Keld Denar]

My friend, allow me to enlighten you to the virtues of the Swift Hunter. Kindly open up your copy of Complete Scoundrel and skip to the feats chapter. About 2/3 of the way through it, there is a lovely little feat called Swift Hunter. It does 2 things.

A) Stacks Ranger + Scout levels together to determine Favored Enemies and Skirmish damage/AC boost.

B) YOU CAN USE YOUR SKIRMISH ABILITY AGAINST ANY FOE YOU HAVE A FAVORED ENEMY FOR, EVEN IF THAT FOE IS NORMALLY IMMUNE TO PRECISION DAMAGE.

Bam! Done deal. Pick up Undead and Constructs as your first two favored enemies, and 80% of the things that are immune, you can skirmish against.

Just pick up Greater Manyshot, which allows you to add precision damage on each arrow in a Manyshot, slap 3-4 levels of Scout on 16-17 levels of Ranger (better BAB, and Ranger spells aren't bad if you use SC and Champions of Ruin), and you are back in the game.

WARNING: Build is rather repetative, albeit effective. Every round, you'll move 20' and Greater Manyshot. Again, and again and again. Then again, that's just about any archer build, so...yea.

Cleric Archer takes a bit of finesse. You pretty much have to be an Elf, but you can pick up Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot from the War and Elf domains respectively. War also opens up the Holy Warrior reserve feat, which gives you a decent source of +damage. Plus, you can cast Greater Magic Weapon on your swag, and even take item creation feats to make sure your gear is better than others.

Bards are tons of fun. Inspire Courage is your main song, and also your main source of +damage. You don't need to take any actions to maintain a song, just to start it. So, spend your first round putting up a song, then spend the rest of the combat Rapid Shotting to your hearts desire. All of your allies benefit from IC as well, and with enough gear and feats, you can pump IC up to really respectable levels. Plus, again, you have spellcasting, which means you win D&D.

[Graha013]

Gonna have to find Champions of Ruin. Alas, a book I don't have...I think.


Swift hunter is a good idea and I totally overlooked it.

But I throw you a curveball now: Aquatic assassins. Movement limitations because of swimming to be overcome by...race and class abilities. Thoughts? Motivations? The idea piqued when looking at shadowdancer....in the blackness of the ocean, how exactly does shadow fall into things..

[Keld Denar]

You just need a swim speed. Do Shoal Halflings have one? If not, would you consider a race that does? Once you have a swim speed, you can move normally without making swim checks, or by making very EASY swim checks that you can also take 10 on (due to the movement rules).

There are a few ways to get a swim speed. I believe there is a list of them in Sureal's List of Stuff over on the CharOp forums, if that thread hasn't sank to the murky depths of the Intarweb Pits (LOLth's domain) by now.

EDIT: See my edit above for info on cleric and bard archers.

[Graha013]

Yeah the Shoal Halfling is a pretty clutch aquatic race. Aventi, Sea Half Elves, Darfellan...were not very useful. The Hadozee was semi-neat, if only for it's glide ability.

Shoals:

Aquatic: Shoal halflings are humanoids with the aquatic and halfling subtypes.

Shoal halfling swim speed is 20 feet. A shoal halfling has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. He can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. He can use the run action while swimming, provided he swims in a straight line.

Amphibious (Ex): Shoal halflings are amphibious, capable of breathing water and air equally.

Shoal halflings do not gain the +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings of other halflings, since such things aren’t common among shoal halflings.

Shoal halflings do not gain any racial bonus on Climb, Jump, or Move Silently checks, since they have little opportunity to become proficient in these skills in their aquatic homes.

That's it. Any racial modifications to stats are the same as regular halflings (+2 DEX, -2 STR).

So an assassin type might be another option, though the notes on Bard are also intriguing. Reviewing notes in Stormwrack, Bards get kind of affected by underwater environs - no singing unless they can breathe/speak underwater (Shoal Halfling queued..) or they can only perform some wicked drum solos. While it's a 'pirate adventure', this group has spent more time pillaging and drowning people than anything else..

[Keld Denar]

Being Amphibious(Ex), you can breath underwater. Thus, you can sing and cast spells underwater. I don't see a problem. Take ranks in Perform: Whale Song and sing to your massive brethren.

An alternative to all that might be some sort of Arcane Rogue blend. Rogue1/Wizard4/UnseenSeer10/ArcaneTrickster5 is pretty cookie cutter. Unseen Seer allows you to pick up Hunter's Eye off the Ranger list from the PHBII which gives you +1d6/3 CLs and is persistable. Wizards also have the spell Sniper Shot, which allows you to Sneak Attack at any range. With enough range (Far Shot + Dragonbone Longbow of Distance), you could like, Clairvoyance someone in the next zip code, then sneak attack the bajebus out of them because you are effectively invisible thanks to range penalties to Spot checks.

Just a thought.

[Graha013]

So I'm gonna throw something at you and you let me know what you think.

Spellthief/Bard.

Edit 5: Since nobody has been reading the post, I've editted this sheet down 5 times now and have been talking to myself. haha. But I like where this is going.. I've convinced myself to cut out some fighter and lose the SA chain.. so this is what it's at now:

Starting at ECL 4, going Spellthief 2/Bard 2/to start. No expectation of a full optimization here, but this is my thought:

Feat growth:
1. ST1
1. C1 Quick Draw
2. B1
3. ST2
3. C3 Flick of the Wrist
4. B2
5. B3
6. ST3
6. C6 Extra Music
7. B4
8. ST4
9. ST5
9. C9 Master Spellthief
10. ST6
11. ST7
12. ST8
12 C12 Combat Expertise
13. ST9
14. ST10
15. ST11
15. C15 Improved Feint
16. ST12
17. ST13
18. ST14
18. C18 ????????????????
19. ST15
20. ST16


Carry around a bunch of various wands to allow me to sneak attack and flank, such as sleep, blind, invisibility, dim door...(suggestions?)


edit3: All of that above being said, it's much more likely it'll be 16 spellthief/4 bard. That's if I can figure out a better use/chain than Dodge/Mob/Spring and move down some feats - replacing them with something to assist with performing, spell DCs, or sneak attacking easier..