E6 Prestige Class Guide [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Yora

2011-06-22, 03:17 PM

Most prestige classes can be taken at 6th level, which makes them possible options for E6 characters. However, many good Prestige Classes show their strengths only at higher level, while in an E6 game most can be taken only for a single level, if at all. Therefore, most guides and recommendations are not of much use for an E6 game.
At this point, this thread comes in.

This thread is meant to be a compilation of Prestige Classes available and useful for E6 characters. Since I don't have access to all books and really don't have any actual experience with CharOp, additional input is highly welcome.
If you think a class is missing from the list, please write up a section for it (or ask that some other users do one) and I'll link it in the first post, or feel free to point out mistakes in existing sections. Participation is highly encouraged.

Abjurant Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11269503#post11269503) (CM)
Anima Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11269161#post11269161) (ToM)
Alienist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11297559#post11297559) (CAr)
Assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11264572#post11264572) (SS)
Ashworm Dragoon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11305090#post11305090) (DMG)
Beastmaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11297559#post11297559) (CAd)
Beast Heart Adept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11306834#post11306834) (Dungeonscape)
Cancer Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11306834#post11306834) (BoVD)
Chameleon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11295984#post11295984) (RoD)
Church Inquisitor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11268878#post11268878) (CD)
Divine Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11270489#post11270489) (CD)
Dragonmark Heir (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11275190#post11275190) (ECS)
Elocator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11264572#post11264572) (XPH)
Fist of the Forest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11264412#post11264412) (CC)
Horizon Walker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11264572#post11264572) (DMG)
Ilithid Slayer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11264572#post11264572) (XPH)
Ironsoul Forgemaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11281708#post11281708) (MoI)
Mage of the Arcane Order (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11267418#post11267418) (CAr)
Master Inquisitor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11306834#post11306834) (ECS)
Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11275646#post11275646) (CS)
Master of Shrouds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11268878#post11268878) (LM)
Mindbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11267418#post11267418) (CAr)
Moonsea Skysentinel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11275808#post11275808) (CoV)
Mortal Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11306834#post11306834) (BoVD)
Pious Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11270489#post11270489) (CD)
Pyrokineticist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11264688#post11264688) (XPH)
Ruby Knight Vindicator (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11267013#post11267013) (ToB)
Runesmith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11268775#post11268775) (RoS)
Sand Shaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11305090#post11305090) (SS)
Scorpion Wraith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11268775#post11268775) (SoX)
Shadow Sun Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11269503#post11269503) (ToB)
Silver Key (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11306834#post11306834) (Dragonmarked)
Soul Eater (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11306834#post11306834) (BoVD)
Spymaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11264688#post11264688) (CAd)
Thief Acrobat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11264688#post11264688) (CAd)
Thrallherd (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11269569#post11269569) (XPH)
Unseen Seer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11269742#post11269742) (CM)
Walker in the Waste (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11306834#post11306834) (SS)
War Shaper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11275568&#post11275568&) (CW)
War Weaver (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11273228#post11273228) (HoB)
Wild Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11267418#post11267418) (CAr)
Wildrunner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11268775#post11268775) (RotW)

MeeposFire

2011-06-22, 03:20 PM

Dragonmark heir just so you can actually have more than one level? Warshaper works too if you are a changling or similar.

dextercorvia

2011-06-22, 03:26 PM

Up to two levels of Fist of the Forest (CC) can be taken in E6. In those levels you gain Con to AC, 10' Fast movement that explicitly stacks, Feral Trance, 1d8 Unarmed Damage, Uncanny Dodge, Untamed Strike (overcome DR/magic with UAS). In exchange, you are a wild child, unable to sleep indoors, etc.

Fist of the Forest (CC)
Requirements: BAB+4; 4 ranks in Handle Animal, Survival; Great Fortitude; IUAS; Power Attack; RP
Benefits: AC Bonus(Con to AC), Fast Movement (10' explictly stacks), Feral Trance, 1d8 Unarmed Damage, Uncanny Dodge, Untamed Strike (Ki Strike)
Useful for: Barbarian/Rangers/Fighters that want to smash stuff with their fists.

DoctorGlock

2011-06-22, 03:42 PM

You get some minor benefits out of master specialist which you can ge into as early as 3rd IIRC.

Yora

2011-06-22, 03:48 PM

Assassin (DMG)
Requirements: Assassins really only require 8 ranks in Hide and Move Silently, as well as 4 ranks in Disguise. Best way to get them is a two levels in bard or rogue, but ranger also works. And you need to be evil.
Benefits: The assassins main feature is his death attack, but at a DC of 11 + Int modifier it's highly unreliable. +1d6 Sneak Attack damage makes it an interesting alternative to a level of rogue, though. While poison use is all but useless, the ability to prepare such gems like disguise self, jump, or sleep once per can be a real life saver if you don't have access to magic items. The downside is the +0 to BAB, Fort, and Ref.
Useful for: If you currently have an uneven number of rogue levels, a level of assassin increases your Sneak Attack damage by +1d6. With high Int you get even two spells per day, which makes it a real alternative to the 6th level of the rogue class that only has +1 Trap sense and +1 to BAB and all saves.

Elocator (XPH)
Requirements: The Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attacks make the class a clear no-go, unless you already planned to take them. You also need 8 ranks in Concentration and a power point reserve.
Benefits: The elocators one class feature is to ignore difficult terrain when moving. If you plan to run a lot during combat, this is really useful. You also get a +2 bonus to Reflex and Will, which makes up for the +0 to BAB. And you also get +1 manifester level and new powers, which makes it really interesting for psychic warriors and multiclass psions.
Useful for: This class works best for psychic warriors focused on movement. Since you also get full manifesting, taking the -1 penalty to BAB would be the only thing you lose, which makes it a very good choice for such characters. Fighters who have a power point reserve from a racial trait could also qualify, if they find a way to get the ranks in Concentration through multiclassing.

Horizon Walker (DMG)
Requirements: A horizon walker needs 8 ranks in Knowledge (geography) and the Endurance feat. If you're a ranger who maxed Knowledge (geography) you qualify, everyone else shouldn't bother.
Benefits: All you get is Terrain Focus for one type of terrain, which grants you a +4 bonus to one skill and a +1 bonus to attack and damage against creatures of a selected environment.
Useful for: If the game takes place mostly or completely in a single type of environment and you're a ranger who really really hates one type of local creatures, it might be worth considering, if you don't have any real use for the second combat style feat. If you're not a 5th level ranger who will fight only in a single environment, there are many much better choices for 6th level.

Ilithid Slayer (XPH)
Requirements: This class is easy to get in and can even be taken at 5th level by a 4th level ranger. However, he wouldn't get any benefit from the second level and characters who would can't take it. You also need a power point reserve.
Benefits: You get Ilithids as a Favored Enemy and can sense them at 60 ft. If you'r character is an ilithid hunter and has a power point reserve, and the campaign will have lots of ilithids to fight, this is really good. If you're a ranger 5 and have taken aberrations as your favored enemy twice, +6 bonuses to attack and damage at 6th level is a lot! In that case it might even be worth it to spend a feat on Wild Talent. This is E6, there will be lots of more feats later on.
Useful for: Obviously rangers with favored enemy aberration. If you have the +4 BAB and the Track feat, it's also worth considering for other characters in such a campaign. And with DM permission, it could also be applied to other creatures as well.

veven

2011-06-22, 03:56 PM

Church Inquisitor can be entered at level 4. You get a free domain (inquisition), detect evil at will, immunity to charms, and automatic saving throws vs illusions. Full caster advancement too. I played a cloistered cleric 3/church inquisitor 3 in E6 and had a blast.

Yora

2011-06-22, 04:06 PM

Pyrokineticist (XPH)
Requirements: You need to get 8 ranks into Concentration, even though the class does not have any use for it. Also, you need a power point reserve, even though the class doesn't manifest powers at all.
Benefits: Why even bother? 15 ft. reach rangd touch attack to deal 1d8 points of fire! That's why! You also get +2 to Fort and Ref saves, but only +0 to BAB.
Useful for: In a low level game, the ability to deal 1d8 points of energy damage with a touch attack all day can be really nice. Rangers would probably benefit the most, since they have Concentration but can deal with losing a caster level.

Spymaster (CAd)
Requirements: If you're a rogue focusing on lies and deception, you should already have all the required skill ranks and feats.
Benefits: You gain the ability to prepare a cover identity which provides you with considerable bonuses when impersonating that person. Great for heist adventures or spy campaigns with lots of time for preparation.
Useful for: Really only worth it for rogues. Bards could also easily qualify, but they would benefit more from another level in bard.

Thief Acrobat (CAd)
Requirements: All you need is high ranks in Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble, which most rogues should already have, especially when climbing on roofs is one of their specialities.
Benefits: Doesn't seem much at first, but when climbing and balancing is your trade, this class is pure awesome. You basically double your speed when doing your acrobat stuff and no longer provoke Attacks of Opportunity. And if you do slip you can stand up as a free action.
Useful for: I'd go so far to say that there's no reason to play a rogue 6 when there's any way you could also play a rogue 5/thief acrobat 1. Yes, you lose +1 BAB, Fort, and Will, but this class puts the monkey into skill monkey. If you want to play an acrobat, you HAVE to take this class!

*.*.*.*

2011-06-22, 04:08 PM

You get some minor benefits out of master specialist which you can ge into as early as 3rd IIRC.

I think you can get into master specialist after 1st level if you use precocious apprentice and are a human.

Calimehter

2011-06-22, 04:14 PM

I can't say as I've looked at them *all* by any means, but I've looked at a few of them for my own E6 campaign:

Assassin is pretty neat, especially given that the 'capstone' level for Rogues is a bit meh. Gets you spells (albiet limited) and an extra sneak attack die.

Invisible Blade, Dread Commando,and Nightsong Enforcer work along the same lines as Assassin, but are probably not as good by most counts. They still bear mentioning though, as their specific benefits (while small at 1st level) are at least more useful than Rogue 6, and they don't have the "gotta be evil" problem/controversy/arguement that Assassin can have.

Bloodhound (CAdv) is kind of interesting, in that you can take 2 levels of it in E6 with the right build. For a ranger-type character, it gets you swift tracking and a potentially neat out-of-combat-ready-action mechanic against select foes. The need to pick a 'mark' might not make it suitable for some adventure concepts, though.

War Weaver (HoB) misses out on quiescent weaving, but still gets the useful Eldritch Tapestry ability with just 1 level.

Dervish (CWar) gets you a bunch of neat stuff right at its entry level level, but it has a tricky set of prereq's to get into, especially since you really need to be TWFing with a scimitar (and eventually plural scimitars) to get the most mileage out of it. I've taken a few stabs at it, but this is one of those that might be a fun exercise for the CharOps crowd. :)

Chameleon (RoD) looks pretty slick, even if it is only accessable to very specific races and builds. 2nd level spells for a 1 level investment?? Can't say as I've ever used one, and the fluff is a bit odd (if you care about such things), but it looks neat.

Zonugal

2011-06-22, 04:19 PM

Some other quick prestige classes to jump into for a rogue are the Master Inquisitive and Silver Key (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2) from Eberron.

They both have a lot of nifty abilities in the three levels accessible to you.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2011-06-22, 04:34 PM

Mindbender (CA), which you can actually get two levels of if you take Fey Heritage and Fey Power (CM) or use Primordial Giant or any number of other low-level CL bonus tricks.

Master Specialist (CM) which you can get four levels of via early entry shenanigans (Improved Krau Illumian, Precocious Apprentice, Beguiler 1/ Wizard 1 with Versatile Spellcaster, etc.).

Kaeso

2011-06-22, 04:42 PM

Yora

2011-06-22, 04:48 PM

I noticed that CC classes have rediculously easy prerequisites. If there's any way that a prestige class might be suitable for your character, the prerequsites are set in a way that your character automatically has all of them at 5th level. You really have to go out of your way to not be able to take the classes at 6th level.

Essence_of_War

2011-06-22, 09:59 PM

Ruby Knight Vindicator is the only way to get Thicket of Blades in E6 and it is accessible for your 6th level.
RKV:

Requirements: Turning, two skills at 4 ranks, 1 at 8 ranks, be able to initiate devoted spirit maneuvers.

Benefits: This does not progress spellcasting at 1st level, but it does give a stance. If you enter this as a Cleric 2/Crusader3 it is the only path that opens up Thicket of Blades from class features w/o requiring you take additional "martial stance" feats in E6.

Useful For: Tankish Crusader builds that are trying to do battlefield control.

dextercorvia

2011-06-22, 11:01 PM

Mage of the Arcane Order (CArc)
Requirements:8 ranks in Knowledge Arcana, Cooperative Spell, another metamagic feat, 750gp, prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells.
Benefits: Spellpool (Leave a slot open to prepare any first 1st-3rd level arcane spell as a FR action in place of a spell. Repay later), Guild membership (Basically access to a library and lab), Advances Arcane Casting
Useful for: Wizards, Sorcerers etc. with the Arcane Preparation feat, Clerics with the Spell domain.

Mindbender (CArc)
Requirements: Nongood, 4 ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive; Charm Person as a spell or SLA;Arcane CL 5
Benefit: 100' of Telepathy (Opening up acces to the feat Mindsight), Advances arcane casting, Good fort save is nice, too.
Useful for: Any arcane caster that can get the skills and the spell.

Wild Mage (CArc)
Requirements: Chaotic, 4 ranks in Know:Planes, UMD, 8 ranks in Spellcraft, Magical Aptitude, any metamagic feat, Arcane CL 1
Benefit: Advances arcane casting, Wild Magic (Changes CL to -3+1d6)
Useful for: Any arcane fullcaster with the Practiced Spellcaster feat. See also, Spellgifted Trait.

gorfnab

2011-06-22, 11:29 PM

riddles

2011-06-23, 12:44 AM

Beastmaster (CAdv) - Take this and the Natural Bond feat for a 7th level equivalent Druid Animal Companion.

Take 5 levels of paladin and devoted tracker as your first e6 bonus feat - mini supermount.

Yora

2011-06-23, 05:25 AM

Mage of the Arcane Order (CArc)
Requirements:8 ranks in Knowledge Arcana, Cooperative Spell, another metamagic feat, 750gp, prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells.
Benefits: Spellpool (1st-3rd level spells), Guild membership, Advances Arcane Casting
Useful for: Wizards, Sorcerers etc. with the Arcane Preparation feat, Clerics with the Spell domain.

Mindbender (CArc)
Requirements: Nongood, 4 ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive; Charm Person as a spell or SLA;Arcane CL 5
Benefit: 100' of Telepathy (Opening up acces to the feat Mindsight), Advances arcane casting, Good fort save is nice, too.
Useful for: Any arcane caster that can get the skills and the spell.

Wild Mage (CArc)
Requirements: Chaotic, 4 ranks in Know:Planes, UMD, 8 ranks in Spellcraft, Magical Aptitude, any metamagic feat, Arcane CL 1
Benefit: Advances arcane casting, Wild Magic (Randomizes CL)
Useful for: Any arcane fullcaster with the Practiced Spellcaster feat. See also, Spellgifted Trait.

Nice, but could you maybe add a short line what the special abilities are good for? Especially with the Mage of the Arcane Order I have no idea what Spell Pool actually does without looking it up, and why I would want to have it. Without going into the specific mechanics, of course.

Yora

2011-06-23, 06:21 AM

Runesmith (RoS)
Requirements: If you're a dwarven fighter/wizard, you qualify.
Benefits: You gain +2 to Fort and Will and a full arcane spellcasting level. Also, your spells no longer have somatic components, which lets you ignore spell failure.
Useful for: Any dwarf who casts arcane spells and wears heavy armor. But a fighter/wizard, paladin/wizard, or cleric/wizard gets the prerequisites feats for free, while other combinations have to invest feats to qualify.

Wildrunner (RotW)
Requirements: You need some ranger skills and Endurance, but a barbarian/rogue could also qualify, if you take the feat. It's also elf or half-elf only.
Benefits: +1 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, Fast Movement, and Trackless step.
Useful for: This one is for elven rangers. The real drawback compared to a ranger 6 is not getting the first boost of your animal companion. Improved Combat Style shouldn't really matter, since all you get from now on is free feats.

Scorpion Wraith (SoX)
Requirements: BAB +4, 8 ranks in ranger skills, Blind Fight, Improved Initiative.
Benefits: You get an increase in BAB and Sudden Strike +1d6, so you can get a BAB of +6/+1.
Useful for: One level of ranger is the best way to get into this class. The other levels can be about anything, but it's probably most useful if you're going for +6 BAB.

Gullintanni

2011-06-23, 06:55 AM

Church Inquisitor (CD)
Requirements: Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral, Will +3, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, Able to cast Zone of Truth as a divine spell. Member of a lawful good church or religious order.
Benefits: At will Detect Evil, Inquisition Domain (1 level)
Immune to Charms, Pierce Illusion (3 levels)
Advances Divine Casting
Useful for: Bonus domains! More importantly grants a +2 Will save. Use this for early entry into Master of Shrouds PrC. See below.

Master of Shrouds (LM)
Requirements: Any nongood. Will +5, Concentration 5 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks, Augment Summoning feat, Spell Focus (Conjuration).
Benefits: Extra Turning feat, advances Rebuking, advances Divine casting (CL -1), Summon Undead (Shadow)
Useful for: Shadow summons remain useful, what with being incorporeal and having no save, STR damage touch attacks, until around ECL 13. E6 usually caps out at ECL10-12 encounters, ergo your Shadows will be useful forever. You can do this 3+Cha mod times per day. If you enter with Church Inquisitor, you can progress your Divine casting to 5/6 and retain 5/6 rebuking as well. The fluff can be difficult to marry, in that you must be a Lawful Neutral character who is also a member of a Lawful Good church, but for certain gods (Wee Jas, Heironeous, Moradin) this kind of thing makes sense. If you can't stick Church Inquisitor in the middle, you'll have to lose two divine caster levels in order to meet the Will save requirements fast enough to squeeze two levels out of this PrC. Not worth it IMHO. Church Inquisitor is all that makes this work.

Assassin (DMG)
Requirements: Assassins really only require 8 ranks in Hide and Move Silently, as well as 4 ranks in Disguise. Best way to get them is a two levels in bard or rogue, but ranger also works. And you need to be evil.
Benefits: The assassins main feature is his death attack, but at a DC of 11 + Int modifier it's highly unreliable. +1d6 Sneak Attack damage makes it an interesting alternative to a level of rogue, though. While poison use is all but useless, the ability to prepare such gems like disguise self, jump, or sleep once per can be a real life saver if you don't have access to magic items. The downside is the +0 to BAB, Fort, and Ref.
Useful for: If you currently have an uneven number of rogue levels, a level of assassin increases your Sneak Attack damage by +1d6. With high Int you get even two spells per day, which makes it a real alternative to the 6th level of the rogue class that only has +1 Trap sense and +1 to BAB and all saves.

A solid use for this IMO would be Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 2/Assassin 1. Assassin gives you the prerequisites for Daring Outlaw. You end up with 4d6 Sneak Attack, Int and Str to Damage, free Weapon Finesse, solid HD (3d10, 3d6), Evasion, decent saves (Fort 3/Ref 6/Will 1) and all the benefits of Assassin 1. Plus lots of skills and very little MAD.

kestrel404

2011-06-23, 08:17 AM

Anima Mage (ToM)
Requirements: Non-good, Intimidate 4, Know(Planes) 4, Any metamagic, Cast 2nd level spells, bind 2nd level vestiges. With sufficient cheese, you can meet these requirements at 1st level. With only mild cheese you can manage by 2nd level. And with no cheese at all you can easily meet the requirements by 3th level.
Benefits: Dual progression spellcasting & binding, and an extra spell slot for your highest level spells. At 3rd level you can get +2 initiative. But at 5th level (which is just possible with sufficient investment and creativity) you get a free metamagic use.
Useful for: This is a very nice prestige class for E6 because in many ways it gives you something for nothing. At the cost of 2 feats early in your career (bind vestige and improved bind vestige), you can qualify for the 'bind a 2nd level of vestige' without actually taking any levels of binder. If the GM allows retraining feats, this is actually only a temporary tax, since once you've gotten into the class, you'll be able to bind vestiges independently and can turn those feats into something useful (just make sure that 'improved bind vestige' turns into 'improved binding' so that you can continue to bind 2nd level vestiges. Possibilities include Wizard 3/Anima Mage 3 (for minimal cheese), Beguiler 1/Binder 1/Anima Mage 4 for moderate cheese (requires you to have Versatile Spellcaster at level 1, Improved Binding at level 2 and skill points can be tricky) or Dread Necromancer 1/Anima Mage 5 (requires 5 feats at 1st level, including one that grants Knowledge (Planes) as a class skill)

Fouredged Sword

2011-06-23, 08:39 AM

Talya

2011-06-23, 09:34 AM

Ruby Knight Vindicator is the only way to get Thicket of Blades in E6 and it is accessible for your 6th level.

Or, you know, Martial Stance feats. (It's not like feats are so hard to come by in E6.)

Essence_of_War

2011-06-23, 09:38 AM

Shadow Sun Ninja (ToB)

Requirements: 8 ranks in a monk/SS class skill, imp unarmed strike, BAB +3, 2nd level maneuvers from Setting Sun or Shadow Hand.

Benefits: Advances monk/unarmed SS abilities, gives 1 maneuver known, increases IL, Touch of the Shadow Sun (healing/damage touch attack), save boost!

Useful for: Probably best for unarmed swordsages, even still, this may be a tough call vs. just getting another SS level, monk2/SS3 can get in also (although you're losing an additional point of BAB).

Abjurant Champion (CM)

Requirements: BAB+5, combat casting, ability to cast arcane spells and at least 1 abjuration. In E6, I believe this means you must be either a Duskblade or a Hexblade.

Benefits: Full BAB, boosts casting progression, boosts will saves, extended abjuration, abjurant armor.

Useful for: Squeezing in an extra level of Hexblade casting while missing the dead level at Hexblade 6, and getting some potentially useful class features instead.

Or, you know, Martial Stance feats. (It's not like feats are so hard to come by in E6.)

I think I should re-word, I didn't mean to imply that it was THE ONLY WAY, but rather that it was the only way to get it from class features w/o devoting extra feats. Thanks for pointing that out :smallredface:

Eloel

2011-06-23, 09:52 AM

Caliphbubba

2011-06-23, 10:26 AM

Unseen Seer (CM)

Requirements: Hide 8, Search 8, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 4, Spot 4
Spellcasting:1st level arcane spells, and at least 2 divination spells.
Benifit: +1 Spellcasting, and 1d6 of precision damage
Useful For: No idea really, I've never played E6. it's too bad there isn't away to get 2 levels in it. The second level is money.

Totally Guy

2011-06-23, 10:36 AM

Prestige Paladin from the class variants on the SRD woule perhaps be viable.

You could go Cleric 4/Fighter 1/Prestige Paladin 1 to have a character with 5BAB and casting as a 5th level Cleric.

Substitute Fighter for another full BAB class to taste.

Yora

2011-06-23, 10:54 AM

Thrallherd (XPH)

Requirements: Be a Telepath or a Wilder with Expanded Knowledge (mindlink). Get the Inquisitor feat. Spend a couple skillpoints.

Benefits: Thrallherd! Basically, a L5 cohort, and a bunch of lackeys who are replenished every day. If you can't find a use for ever-regenerating followers, you're not trying hard enough.

Drawbacks: You lose a level of manifesting. Ouch.

Useful for: Anyone who can meet the prerequisites, pretty much.

Worth noting: Wilders have cha-based manifesting, which synergizes well with Thrallherd. Yet they lose out on 3rd level powers. Psions get their 3rd level power, yet are MAD.

While this does work, is it really a good idea? Instead you could take a level of psion or wilder and take Leadership as your 6th level feat. The only benefit of 1 level of thrallherd is a Leadership score +1. That hardly seems worth losing an entire manifester level in any situation I could think off.

Gullintanni

2011-06-23, 11:11 AM

While this does work, is it really a good idea? Instead you could take a level of psion or wilder and take Leadership as your 6th level feat. The only benefit of 1 level of thrallherd is a Leadership score +1. That hardly seems worth losing an entire manifester level in any situation I could think off.

If this works as written, being able to get a 5th level cohort in E6 is otherwise impossible, so you're able to pick up a benefit here that literally no other combination of classes can possibly achieve. That said, I'm not sure Manifester 5/Cohort 5 is worth the tradeoff vs. Manifester 6/Cohort 4.

...although Cohort 5 could be another caster with 3rd level spells. YMMV?

Eloel

2011-06-23, 11:17 AM

If this works as written, being able to get a 5th level cohort in E6 is otherwise impossible, so you're able to pick up a benefit here that literally no other combination of classes can possibly achieve. That said, I'm not sure Manifester 5/Cohort 5 is worth the tradeoff vs. Manifester 6/Cohort 4.

...although Cohort 5 could be another caster with 3rd level spells. YMMV?

They are also expendable. That makes a huge difference, imo. Suicide missions made easy!

Yora

2011-06-23, 11:19 AM

Okay, in that case I add it to the list.

I think we collect the classes now and possibly later write them into a guide with elaborations on specific abilities and combinations.

dextercorvia

2011-06-23, 12:38 PM

Nice, but could you maybe add a short line what the special abilities are good for? Especially with the Mage of the Arcane Order I have no idea what Spell Pool actually does without looking it up, and why I would want to have it. Without going into the specific mechanics, of course.

Done. I updated Wild Mage too.

Divine Oracle (CD)
Requirements: 8 ranks of Knowledge(Religion); Skill Focus -- Knowledge(Religion); Able to cast at least 2 divination spells.
Benefits: Oracle Domain; +2 DC on Divination(Scrying) spells
Useful for: Nosy people.

Pious Templar
Requirements: BAB+5; 4 ranks of Knowledge(Religion); True Believer, Weapon Focus(Diety's favored)
Benefits: Full BAB, Mettle, Wisdom based casting from either Paladin or Blackguard list
Useful for: Melee characters with high saves.

Talya

2011-06-23, 01:00 PM

If this works as written, being able to get a 5th level cohort in E6 is otherwise impossible

Improved Cohort (Heroes of Battle) also does this. And it's just a feat.

Gullintanni

2011-06-23, 01:14 PM

Improved Cohort (Heroes of Battle) also does this. And it's just a feat.

Fair enough. Thrallherd should probably go in the "not so useful" pile then.

Talya

2011-06-23, 01:25 PM

Yora

2011-06-23, 01:41 PM

That really depends on the question why one should have a cohort to begin with. I actually like the followers much more. The cohort is a kind of weird thing.

Fouredged Sword

2011-06-23, 06:46 PM

War Weaver

Requirements: 6 ranks of Craft(weaving); 6 ranks of Knowledge (Arcana); Enlarge Spell feat; Able to cast at least 3rd level spells.
Benefits: Eldrich Tapestry - turns all party buffs into mass versions of themselves
Useful for: Buffers for large parties. Bards can make great healers this way.
Losses for takeing - You lose a caster level
Entry method - wizard can enter with minimal comitment. Sorcerers can enter with versitile spellcaster and heiten spell at 5th level. Bard can enter at the same level with sufficent stats, or more likely at 6th level. Bards can cast use this to cast cure light woulnds to effect the whole party this way.

Gullintanni

2011-06-23, 06:57 PM

Speaking of E6 and cohorts...

It appears at a glance that while player characters can gain feats until they have nothing else they would ever want, a cohort is trapped at level 5 and can therefore never gain more feats with more experience. Despite being only one level less than the PC character they are attached to (while in normal d20, a cohort cannot exceed 17 until epic levels), they end up being even further behind as the other characters all get feats.

Was this ever addressed? Can a cohort begin acquiring bonus feats once they are capped in E6? Would it be a reasonable rule to allow this?

I would probably just stop the cohort progression. You gain a lot more from an E6 cohort than a vanilla 3.5 cohort. Namely owing to the fact that resources are much more limited for a 6th level character than for a 20th level character. Just my opinion though.

sreservoir

2011-06-23, 07:26 PM

with a sufficient leadership score, could an e6 character not get level 6 followers?

avr

2011-06-24, 12:07 AM

Dragonmark heir doesn't seem to have been followed up on.
Requirements: 7 ranks in any 2 skills, Favored in House feat, Least Dragonmark feat
Benefits: add PrC level to caster level of dragonmarks (so CL 8 rather than 6 if both levels possible in E6 taken), additional least dragonmark, all good saves, social bonus, extra action points (however that might work in E6)
Losses: doesn't advance spells or class features, not full BAB
Uses: Just figure out a reason to want CL 8 rather than 6 in a lesser dragonmark power like scry or glyph of warding or shadow conjuration badly enough

Calintares

2011-06-24, 01:18 AM

Warshaper.

Requirements:+4 BAB, shapechanger subtype or ability to polymorph or wild shape. (in E6 this requires you to be a changeling)
Benefits: Immunity to critical hits, ability to increase size for natural weapons and grow new ones. If you take the second level you get +4 to str and con.
Losses: full BAB
Useful for: Monks, Unarmed swordsages, other characters who use natural weapons.

MeeposFire

2011-06-24, 01:28 AM

HunterOfJello

2011-06-24, 01:41 AM

A Sorcerer, beguiler, warmage, bard or dreadnecromancer can enter Sand Shaper for their 6th level and gain 14 spells known form the class feature 'Dust Magic'. The spells known come at the cost of 1 level of spell progression which would stop most of the classes from gaining 3rd level spells.

However, for a Sorcerer character the benefits far pros far outweigh all of the cons. Ignoring cantrips, a normal Sorcerer would go from having 6 spells known to 7 spells known when they reach level seven. A Sand Shaper goes from having 6 spells known to 20 spells known. (And those new spells are good ones too.)

Requirements, Pros, Cons:

Entry Requirements
Alignment: Any neutral.
Skills: Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks, Survival 4 ranks.
Feat: Touchstone (City of the Dead).
Spells or Spell-Like Abilities: Arcane caster level 5th.

Sorcerer Pros:
14 new spells known
This includes 3 summoning spells, all 6 ability score increasing spells, endure elements, resist energy, and a decent offensive touch spell called Parching Touch.
d6 instead of d4
4+Int class skill points
larger class skill list
+1 to Caster Level as long as you carry around 15lbs of sand with you at any given time (This offests the caster level you would typically lose from this level)
Finally, the Sand Shape (Sp) which allows you to create items entirely from sand.

Sorcerer Cons:
1 less 0th level spell known
1 less 3rd level spell known (which means you never learn 3rd level spells)
No increase in BAB
Save increases are (+0,+0,+2) instead of (+1, +1, +1)
1 less second spell cast per day

~

Master of Masks can be entered at 6th level and is a great alternative for Factotum and Rogue characters. The Gladiator Mask it provides gives proficiency with all martial and exotic weapons, which is the usual reason for players to enter the PrC. The Assassin Mask gives an extra 1d6 points of damage in sneak attack situations along with +2 to Hide and Move Silently. Since players get to choose 2 masks to create at their first level, there are many different choices available.

Requirements, Pros, and Cons

Entry Req.
Skill: Bluff 8 ranks, Disguise 8 ranks, Perform (act) 8 ranks.
Languages: Any four.
Special: Must have successfully impersonated an individual,
fooling even that person’s friends and associates.

Pros:
Gain 2 cool masks with cool abilities
Proficiency with all martial and exotic weapons if you choose the Gladiator Mask
+1 Ref
+1 Will (compared to another level of Factotum or Rogue)

Cons:
d6 (compared to a factotum's d8)
only 4+Int skill points
a short class skill list (Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Disguise, Forgery, Perform, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language)
-1 Fort (compared to another level of Factotum or Rogue)
One less level in factotum for purposes of Cunning Knowledge

In the end you lose out of skill points, but can gain some heft combat bonuses. Rogues and Factotums don't get anything worthwhile at level 6, so this is a worthy alternative.

Thurbane

2011-06-24, 02:23 AM

Certain classes can gain entry Mythic Exemplar (CC) earlier than other, due to the diverse reqs, some at 5th level. Rogue 4 or Marshal 4 will get you in (or even 3rd, if you use Primary Contact early entry cheese).

gorfnab

2011-06-24, 02:33 AM

Moonsea Skysentinel (CoV)

Prerequisites:
Skills: Handle Animal 8 ranks, Ride 8 ranks
Feats: Mounted Combat
Base Attack Bonus: +5.
Special: Membership in the Knights of the North.

Benefits:
+1 BAB and one heck of a mount (Dire Hawk, Large Size, 9HD and at full HP!, Fly 80ft Average, 2 claws at +10 to hit for 1d8+5 damage, Bite at +5 to hit for 1d8+2 damage, Flyby Attack, and Wingover).

Cons:
Really you're only in this for the mount. Beastmaster + Natural Bond may give you some better options for an Animal Companion, however Moonsea Skysentinel has slightly easier prereqs.

Tharkie

2011-06-24, 03:53 AM

Thrallherd (XPH)
Requirements: Be a Telepath or a Wilder with Expanded Knowledge (mindlink). Get the Inquisitor feat. Spend a couple skillpoints.

I'm AFB at the moment (so I could be completely wrong), but I vaguely remember tinkering with a Wilder 5/Thrallherd 1 build at some point.
How do you get 2nd level powers at level 3 as a wilder to qualify for Expanded Knowledge (mindlink)?

Gullintanni

2011-06-24, 06:12 AM

with a sufficient leadership score, could an e6 character not get level 6 followers?

No. Per SRD:

Cohort Level

...Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself.

I believe that the feat Talya referenced, and the Thrallherd special ability, override this limitation such that an E6 characters cohort can be within one level of the leader.

Amnestic

2011-06-24, 06:44 AM

No. Per SRD:

Cohort Level

...Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself.

I believe that the feat Talya referenced, and the Thrallherd special ability, override this limitation such that an E6 characters cohort can be within one level of the leader.

Followers, not cohorts. There doesn't appear to be a cap on Follower levels (except that you can't get any above 6th) like there is with Cohorts.

Yora

2011-06-24, 08:09 AM

Gullintanni

2011-06-24, 09:57 AM

Followers, not cohorts. There doesn't appear to be a cap on Follower levels (except that you can't get any above 6th) like there is with Cohorts.

Ah yes. Misread that a little. In that case you would need a Leadership score of 21 or higher. Not easy in E6. In fact, with a 22 CHA, optimistically about as high as you'll get in E6 without playing as a template monstrosity, your Leadership base score is 12. That's 9 points you have to make up...probably possible but definitely not easy.

Of course the obvious house rule here is that you can't recruit followers whose level exceeds that of your cohort.

Amnestic

2011-06-24, 11:40 AM

Ah yes. Misread that a little. In that case you would need a Leadership score of 21 or higher. Not easy in E6. In fact, with a 22 CHA, optimistically about as high as you'll get in E6 without playing as a template monstrosity, your Leadership base score is 12. That's 9 points you have to make up...probably possible but definitely not easy.

Of course the obvious house rule here is that you can't recruit followers whose level exceeds that of your cohort.

Three, not nine. The assortment of Leadership modifiers can make up six of the ones you need.

And I'd agree with the houserule, though the chances of such a thing turning up in a game - even an E6 game - seem pretty slim to me :smalltongue:

sreservoir

2011-06-24, 11:50 AM

Gullintanni

2011-06-24, 12:37 PM

if you have great renown, are fair and generous, and have special power -- it can't be that hard, at level 6 in E6, can it? -- that's +4. if you keep a base of operations, you get another +2.

further leadership boosts are actually annoying expensive, and will almost definitely break WBL without crafting shenanigans, but breastplate of command gives +2 and an admiral's bicorne (Stormwrack) gives +5. interestingly, the wording of the admiral's bicorne implies that leadership score counts as a charisma-based check, and would thus be affected by things like the circlet of persuasion and a marshal dip.

HoB has four [Leader] feats which each give +1 leadership score, and RoF has Might Makes Right which gives +str.

but no, it's not really reasonably doable.

Keep in mind that in E6 you don't have access to the Breastplate of Command or Admiral's Bicorne. You have access only to magic items whose caster level requirement is 6 or less. Anything above that, in E6, qualifies as an artifact.

Three, not nine. The assortment of Leadership modifiers can make up six of the ones you need.

This is correct in theory, but is more difficult than you make it seem in practice. Great Renown and Special Power are both very DM dependent. What qualifies as being a character of "Great Renown"? You're level 6 adventurers and unless you've done some great public, very visible service, then you probably don't qualify for this.

Moreover...Special Power, to me, implies something unique. A Bard, for example, doesn't have a Special Power by virtue of being able to cast spells. In my opinion, a Special Power is something that the world has never seen before. An original spell, or possession of an artifact might fulfill this qualification, but ultimately, this is something you achieve with the assistance of your DM.

Stronghold/Guildhouse/Base of Operations is also undefined. Is a one room cottage sufficient to fulfill this requirement? Does the stronghold require supplies and upkeep? Does it have to be able to house all of your followers to count for the purposes of a leadership feat? Do you have to purchase and own land in order to build your stronghold? If the answer to any of the latter questions is, "Yes", then stronghold building can be very very expensive.

I certainly wouldn't make it easy to pick up any of these bonuses. Leadership is already the most powerful feat in the game, and I'm going to make my players earn every +1. Still, like I said, a 21 is probably achievable. Just not easy.

sreservoir

2011-06-24, 12:42 PM

in that case, yeah, you'll just need more feats to do it. or abuse the implication that leadership score counts as a charisma-based check.

Cog

2011-06-24, 12:52 PM

Warshaper. (in E6 this requires you to be a changeling)
Shifters, hengeyokai, and lycanthropes (possibly others?) meet that requirement as well.

Gullintanni

2011-06-24, 12:52 PM

in that case, yeah, you'll just need more feats to do it. or abuse the implication that leadership score counts as a charisma-based check.

Hehe, yeah. If you're of a mind that a Leadership Score is a "check" then Circlet of Persuasion + Feats. But that's a bit cheesy IMO :smallwink:

Zaq

2011-06-24, 10:11 PM

Ironsoul Forgemaster (MoI)Requirements: Dwarf, nonevil, ability to shape soulmelds, K: Arcana 2, C: Armorsmithing or Weaponsmithing 8. If you're a dwarf Incarnate, the Craft ranks mean you'll have to make a conscious choice to enter, but it's not that much of a sacrifice.
Benefits: +2 Fort/Will is nice, but the real joy here is Shield Bond, which lets you get resist 5/essentia against all five major elements. Yes, that includes Sonic. Since you invest "as if it were a soulmeld," you can use Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (the feat) or Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (the Incarnate class feature) to boost that even higher. Even just resist 10 is nearly immunity in E6, though.
Drawbacks: If you're an Incarnate, you're giving up a point of essentia and your second chakra bind by going Incarnate 5/ISFM 1 instead of Incarnate 6. Other than that? Eh, it's a pretty good deal. Its only abilities in E6 are purely defensive, but they're damn good at being defensive.
Good For: Most dwarf Incarnates, really. Totemists don't really use shields that often, so they probably aren't that interested. A Soulborn could, strictly speaking, qualify, but with only a single bonus incarnum feat as your only source of essentia (sans your race or other feats), why the hell would you bother?

Cieyrin

2011-06-25, 12:26 PM

Keep in mind that in E6 you don't have access to the Breastplate of Command or Admiral's Bicorne. You have access only to magic items whose caster level requirement is 6 or less. Anything above that, in E6, qualifies as an artifact.

Not quite true, as Artificers have +2 CL for crafting, so if there's artificers in your E6, there's CL 8 or less items. There's probably a few other CL boosts that are feasible but just artificers is the non-cheasey-est method. E6 Eberron, anyone? :smallbiggrin:

Zaq

2011-06-25, 12:32 PM

Not quite true, as Artificers have +2 CL for crafting, so if there's artificers in your E6, there's CL 8 or less items. There's probably a few other CL boosts that are feasible but just artificers is the non-cheasey-est method. E6 Eberron, anyone? :smallbiggrin:

I don't presume to speak for everyone, but in the E6 game I'm currently in, the CL 6 limit is a hard limit as far as crafting is concerned. If you can get your CL up higher, your spells benefit from it, but you can't craft anything that requires above CL 6, no matter what.

I don't know how common this rule is, but I would imagine that we're not the only group to play like that. Just throwing that out there.

Yora

2011-06-25, 12:34 PM

The listed CL for items is irelevant anyway. To create one, you only need a CL high enough to cast all the required spells. Which is a much longer list of items than just those with a CL listed of 1st to 6th (or 8th :smalltongue:).

But if you're willing to add some cartload of cheese, E6 is as breakable as the rest of the game. I'm sure you can chain gate solars and infinite wishes in E6, as long as you have enough rule books.

dextercorvia

2011-06-25, 12:37 PM

I don't presume to speak for everyone, but in the E6 game I'm currently in, the CL 6 limit is a hard limit as far as crafting is concerned. If you can get your CL up higher, your spells benefit from it, but you can't craft anything that requires above CL 6, no matter what.

I don't know how common this rule is, but I would imagine that we're not the only group to play like that. Just throwing that out there.

The last time I read through the E6 rules, I couldn't find anything that limited spell level or CL, but I'd set a hard limit (on spell access and items) if I were DM'ing a game. It might be 8 rather than 6, because things like Arcane Thesis, and Archivists are common enough. Heck, a Chameleon with Master Spellthief can get CL12 in E6. I'd let him use that for spellcasting, but (I'm not remembering the wording of Chameleon's non-prereq clause) even if it was RAW, I wouldn't let him create items that way.

kestrel404

2011-06-27, 07:20 AM

Fouredged Sword

2011-06-27, 08:42 AM

In E6 I have always run a fuzzy level of items over level 6. As fewer and fewer people can build an item the price skyrockets. I normaly have CL 7,8,9 and 10 each cost exponentialy more than the last until the stated price level for artifacts is reached.

dextercorvia

2011-06-27, 08:53 AM

It was said before, but is worth repeating. The CL of an item is not a prereq.

Yora

2011-06-27, 09:46 AM

Reminds me of making a list of items availble in E6 as well. Got to get my hands on the Item Compendium.

Talya

2011-06-27, 10:44 AM

It was said before, but is worth repeating. The CL of an item is not a prereq.

This does not seem to be true, based on some wording in the magic weapons section of the SRD:

Caster Level for Weapons
The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

This really does seem to treat the caster level of the weapon as a "requirement" rather than just the level of the weapon.

Now, this is also contrary to other crafting descriptions, so it's possible even the original designers didn't understand the rules they had created. (Lack of team communication? Wouldn't be the first time.)

dextercorvia

2011-06-27, 11:19 AM

This does not seem to be true, based on some wording in the magic weapons section of the SRD:

This really does seem to treat the caster level of the weapon as a "requirement" rather than just the level of the weapon.

Now, this is also contrary to other crafting descriptions, so it's possible even the original designers didn't understand the rules they had created. (Lack of team communication? Wouldn't be the first time.)

I'm not able to look it up at the moment, but IIRC, the DMG errata has the information. I don't remember if they specified something for weapons or not.

Edit: Curmudgeon answered it well in the Q&A thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11295829&postcount=1120).

Edit2: I mentioned it earlier, and thought I should write up the Chameleon.

Chameleon (RoD)
Requirements: Human, Doppelganger, or Changeling; Bluff 8 ranks, Disguise 8 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks; Able Learner
Benefits: One Focus per day, of particular note is the Arcane or Divine Focus which grant 0th, 1st, and 2nd level spells. Arcane Focus plays well with Master Spellthief (granting a much higher CL and no ASF in light armor). The spells come from any list so gems like Haste at 1st level are in play.
Useful for: Spellthief1/Caster4 or Spellthief2/Wizard3 whichever gets you 2nd level spells, so that you qualify for Master Spellthief. Note: Spellthief2 will let you recast stolen 2nd level spells. Bard or Binder also make decent entry, but it will practically require Practiced Spellcaster (Chameleon) to have anything like a decent CL. Check with your DM about qualifying as an Illumian, etc. They have the human subtype but not race.
Other Notes: A Chameleon nee Bard can cheese eighth or ninth level spells with Talfirian Song and Extra Slots/Spell -- likewise for a Naenhoon Illumian with Turn Attempts and Heighten. Not recommended unless you are in a TO build challenge.

Gullintanni

2011-06-27, 12:04 PM

The errata is as follows:

Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215
Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster
Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the
caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster
level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

Technically speaking this means that if you can cast the spells, you can create the item. In effect this means that anyone who can cast Bear's Endurance can create a Amulet of Health +6, with no regard for level at all. Weird.

EDIT: However; per the E6 PDF FAQ, see the following:

Q: Can you make high-level items as a
low-level caster in E6?
A: No, caster level requirements for
magic items are treated as hard
requirements.

I knew I saw something about CL in there.

Yora

2011-06-27, 12:39 PM

Talya

2011-06-27, 12:45 PM

dextercorvia

2011-06-27, 12:52 PM

Plus weapon and armor enhancement bonuses. Seems like +2 is as high as they get in E6.

CL 9 (for a +3) is fairly attainable in E6, and I wouldn't necessarily call it cheese. CL 15-20 might be problematic.

Gullintanni

2011-06-27, 12:59 PM

Even the E6-quote says "caster level requirements". The listed caster levels for magic items are not part of the requirements to begin with.
There are at leas two magic items with the explicit requirement "caster level must at least be 6th" in the addition to the "CL 6th" part in the item description. That part is also seperated from the requirements by a semicolon, to clearly seperate them.

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation. The question posed does not imply the limited scope that your interpretation of the answer would result in.

Strictly, the question was, as a low-level caster, can you create high level items? The answer to which was essentially a qualified, "no", whereas the DMG errata would allow you to do exactly that. Interpret however you like, but the lore also disagrees with your interpretation, namely in that:

"...a +4 sword can’t be made by a human
wizard, but it could be crafted by a Titan
(which makes for great god-stats). That’s a
sword that no mortal can make."

A +4 sword would require a 12th level caster. Therefore, we can probably assume that anything on that level or higher is explicitly off limits. Therefore, anything that could be created with only 3rd level spells but has a caster level of 12, should be off limits too. Given your interpretation of the FAQ; however, this would be possible:

Belt of Dwarvenkind
This belt gives the wearer a +4 competence bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks as they relate to dealing with dwarves, a +2 competence bonus on similar checks when dealing with gnomes and halflings, and a -2 competence penalty on similar checks when dealing with anyone else. The wearer can understand, speak, and read Dwarven. If the wearer is not a dwarf, he gains 60-foot darkvision, dwarven stonecunning, a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +2 resistance bonus on saves against poison, spells, or spell-like effects.
Moderate divination; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, tongues, creator must be a dwarf; Price 14,900 gp; Weight 1 lb.

So on the one hand, a low level character can't create weapons that a high level caster could, but the same low level character could create wondrous items that a high level caster could? Specifically in this case, a low level caster can't create a level 12 item, but they can create a level 12 item. I appreciate that weapons have a specific rule here, but the clear goal of E6 is to limit the level of power to that intended for ECL 6. The logic and the lore simply doesn't jive with your interpretation of the FAQ.

EDIT: Further evidence to this effect accompanies the original post made in 2007 that gives an exhaustive list of the majority of items available in E6, none of which have a CL above 6. Barring permanent CL increases, I don't think E6 characters were intended to use items above CL 6.

dextercorvia

2011-06-27, 01:05 PM

So on the one hand, a low level character can't create weapons that a high level caster could, but the same low level character could create wondrous items that a high level caster could? Specifically in this case, a low level caster can't create a level 12 item, but they can create a level 12 item. I appreciate that weapons have a specific rule here, but the clear goal of E6 is to limit the level of power to that intended for ECL 6. The logic and the lore simply doesn't jive with your interpretation of the FAQ.

Weapons have a CL requirement. Wondrous Items don't. There is nothing Inherently CL12 about a Belt of Dwarven Kind. The default belt has a CL12, but you can meet all of the same requirements, and make one at your CL.

Gullintanni

2011-06-27, 01:12 PM

Weapons have a CL requirement. Wondrous Items don't. There is nothing Inherently CL12 about a Belt of Dwarven Kind. The default belt has a CL12, but you can meet all of the same requirements, and make one at your CL.

Yes, that same rule that I acknowledged in the very quote you're referencing for weapon caster level? I am familiar with it. However as I said earlier:

Q: Can you make high-level items as a
low-level caster in E6?
A: No, caster level requirements for
magic items are treated as hard
requirements.

So...from here you can conclude one of two things:

You can not make high level items.
You can make high level items that aren't weapons.

The question then becomes, "How do you define what is or is not a high level item?". Is it the spell necessary to create the item? Is it the caster level? And if it's just the spell necessary to create the item, then what's the purpose of the question? If you can't cast the spell, you already know that you can't create the item. There's no point asking the question unless it's pointed toward caster level. In which case, Caster Level is the benchmark for measuring the "level" of the item.

If that's true, then the author's answer is a "No". Any other answer completely nullifies the premise around which E6 is based.

EDIT: An interesting consequence of disregarding caster level entries allows you to create Sovereign Glue (CL 20, spell requirement Make Whole), but Universal Solvent (CL 20, spell requirement Disintegrate) is impossible to make.

Talya

2011-06-27, 01:22 PM

Weapons have a CL requirement. Wondrous Items don't. There is nothing Inherently CL12 about a Belt of Dwarven Kind. The default belt has a CL12, but you can meet all of the same requirements, and make one at your CL.

Interestingly it's only the enhancement bonus on weapons that have the CL requirement. You could create an effective +7 weapon (by virtue of a +2 enhancement bonus, and +5 worth of special qualities that you can cast the spells for) without issue.

Akal Saris

2011-06-27, 03:00 PM

I'll add in the two PrC's that I've played in E6.

Beastmaster
Requirements: Complete Adventurer. A beast master needs 8 ranks in handle animal and 4 ranks in survival, as well as skill focus (handle animal). A ranger or druid is the most "natural" entry, but a barbarian could also enter easily.
Benefits: Your animal companion gains +4 levels (so a Druid 5/BM 1 would have the animal companion of a 9th level druid), or you could gain a 4th level animal companion such as a crocodile. You also gain Wild Empathy as a 1st level druid. Class chassis: d10 HP, +2 Fort/Ref, +1 BAB, 4 skills/level.
Useful for: Good for having a high HP tank at level 6 - similar to getting leadership but less powerful (though you could do both of course).
Optimization: My own build was "Supermount Lite," Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1, with Devoted Tracker and feats to advance both the paladin mount and the beastmaster companion - the result was a 6HD mount with 6 bonus HD from paladin and beastmaster.

Alienist
Requirements: Complete Arcane. An alienist needs 8 ranks in knowledge (the planes), as well as augment summoning (and likely spell focus (conjuration), 3rd level summoning spells, and non-lawful alignment. A wizard (conjurer) is the strongest entry, but cleric and archivist can also enter easily.
Benefits: Your familiar continues to advance, and all animals summoned now gain the pseudonatural template in place of fiendish or celestial. The major benefit is that 1/day the summoned creature may use True Strike instead of Smite Good/Evil, gaining +20 to that attack. The drawback is you can only summon pseudonatural creatures, however in E6 this limits you from the dretch, small elementals, and the lemure - none of which are spectacularly good. Class chassis: d4 HP, +2Will, +0 BAB, 2 skills/level (includes spot/listen and gather info!).
Useful for: Playing a summoner, of course.
Optimization: If you're a conjurer, you can trade away your familiar for standard action summoning, and then regain the familiar through the Obtain Familiar feat (C. Arcane). For 3rd level summons, the pseudonatural ape and bison are both superb, as is 1d3 wolves.

Yora

2011-06-28, 02:44 PM

So that's what the beastmaster is for. I looked through the class several times and it seemed easily available, but I failed to see the point. Must have missed that.

[My mistake, class already listed.]

MammonAzrael

2011-06-28, 03:02 PM

Well, Sandstorm has a couple PrCs worth looking into. Most aren't worth it, but these two are:

Ashworm Dragoon - 6th level entry, you gain an ashworm for a mount (with +2 HD) and a bonus to ride and handle animal while mounted on your ashworm.

Sand Shaper - 6th level entry, it doesn't advance your spellcasting but you gain access to a large number of spells, you get a CL boost while in a wasteland (or carrying 15 lbs of sand), and you gain the very cool Sand Shape ability (you can mold sand however you please).

Urpriest

2011-06-28, 04:26 PM

Optimization: My own build was "Supermount Lite," Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1, with Devoted Tracker and feats to advance both the paladin mount and the beastmaster companion - the result was a 6HD mount with 6 bonus HD from paladin and beastmaster.

By the way, how are you getting a paladin mount with 6 base HD? Heavy Warhorse is 4HD, I'm having trouble thinking of one available at level 5 with more.

Speaking of E6 and cohorts...

It appears at a glance that while player characters can gain feats until they have nothing else they would ever want, a cohort is trapped at level 5 and can therefore never gain more feats with more experience. Despite being only one level less than the PC character they are attached to (while in normal d20, a cohort cannot exceed 17 until epic levels), they end up being even further behind as the other characters all get feats.

Was this ever addressed? Can a cohort begin acquiring bonus feats once they are capped in E6? Would it be a reasonable rule to allow this?

I was about to say that a cohort who gains enough XP to pass the level barrier just up and leaves, but that appears to be a 3.0 rule that didn't carry over. Instead, cohorts are indeed stuck. They can't even gain the XP that the others use to get epic feats, since their XP total itself is fixed to one below that needed to level up.

veven

2011-06-28, 04:30 PM

By the way, how are you getting a paladin mount with 6 base HD? Heavy Warhorse is 4HD, I'm having trouble thinking of one available at level 5 with more.

You could War Beast it up to 5HD? I dunno where to go from there.

Talya

2011-06-28, 06:42 PM

Interesting. How does beastmaster stack with natural bond?

If a Druid 5/Beastmaster 1 takes natural bond, they take a 7th level druid companion (which BM lets them qualify for), which would make their effective druid level 3, but then natural bond boosts it back up to 6, yes? So that Dire Eagle Warbeast flying mount with the full 6th level Druid +4 bonus hit dice is a possibility?

I'd normally hesitate to trade away that extra wildshape, but in E6, extra wildshape uses are just a feat away...all you really end up losing is a single level 3 spell slot? Beastmaster ends up being an awesome druid PrC in E6. (I suppose it's not a terrible single level dip in normal d20 either...)

Zonugal

2011-06-28, 07:00 PM

Here are some:

Cancer Mage (Book of Vile Darkness)
Requirements: Any evil; Base Fort of +5; Heal 3 ranks, Hide 6 ranks, Knowledge (Nature) 2 ranks, Move Silently 6 ranks; Great Fortitude, Poison Immunity, Toughness; Must have been a victim of a disease & a poison.
Benefits: Gain all martial/armor/shield proficiencies; Solid Skills; Sneak Attack +1d6, Disease Host (only gain the positives to a disease); Contagion (once per day per class level pass the spell off through touch); Cancerous Companion (A tumor that acts as a pseudo-companion with an int of 7, blindsense 30ft. and the ability to use a Cancer Mage's spell or spell-like ability by itself as a standard action once per day); Tatterdemalion (can craft light armor out of scraps of clothing and rags) and Poison (once per day per class level pass the spell off through touch).
Useful for: Any Cleric 2/Monk 1 or Bard 2/Monk 1 can slip into this prestige class which is perfect for an urban-based campaign in need of a villain. More based around flavor (be it disgusting) the prestige class offers some classic abilities for any type of terrorist or cultist.
Other Notes:Obviously the ability to exploit only the advantages of diseases arises...

Mortal Hunter (Book of Vile Darkness)
Requirements: Any outsider; Any evil alignment; BaB +5; Move Silently 3 ranks, Speak Language (Common), Survival 5 ranks; Alertness, Mortalbane and Track.
Benefits: Spells (only 1st-level but if you have a high enough charisma you can nab a daily casting of Cause Fear, Charm Person or Protection from Good); Mortal Hunting (acts just as a Ranger's favored enemy but applies to any mortal creature, any. It also stacks with a Ranger's so choosing Humanoid (Humans) or Arcanists is always a solid choice) and Mortal Skin (this is the ability you took the class for. Once per day as the polymorph self spell the Mortal Hunter may transform themselves into any mortal humanoid form. Now this ability gets better when duration comes in as if you have the humanoid flesh sample you would be imitating you get a permanent effect, if you have flesh used with the same type you get an hour duration and if the flesh isn't the same type at all you get a duration of ten minutes.)
Useful for: Any fifth level Ranger (or even a Ranger 3/Fighter 2) can slide right into this prestige class that offers a 1/day permanent polymorph self ability. The other prime attraction to this is the fact that YOU CAN BE THE TERMINATOR!
Other Notes: Because of the Outsider requirement you'll have to be tricky with that race you pick but with the Otherworldly feat & races like the Neraph (who are basically the Predator species...) it isn't too difficult

Soul Eater (Book of Vile Darkness)
Requirements: Any Living Non-humanoid; Any evil alignment; Bab +5; Knowledge (Arcana) 2 ranks; Alertness and Weapon Focus (claw or other natural weapon).
Benefits: Energy Drain: Once per round through a natural weapon you may bestow a negative level onto a foe.
Useful for: All you're really getting is the Energy Drain but for any simple melee type that uses natural attacks it is a strong ability to throw on top.
Other Notes: Warforged make an excellent entry to this and with the Knowledge (Arcana) requirements the Mage Slayer feats offer a nice synergy to possibly pick up.

Silver Key (Dragonmarked)
Requirements: Dwarf; Disable Device 4 ranks, Hide 4 ranks, Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering) 4 ranks, Open Lock 4 ranks; Dodge; Must be a member of House Kundarak and Trap Sense +1.
Benefits: Solid skills; Armored Adjuration (A Silver Key may wear light armor when casting any abjuration spell and suffer no ASF); Trap Master (+1 to Disable Device, Search & Spellcraft checks when interacting with any 'security measure.'); Warder's Keys (Masterwork thieves tools hidden a lead pouch that provide a +2 circumstance bonus to Craft (Trapmaking), Disable Device, Open Locks and Search to find traps in addition to a +2 competence bonus to Disable Device and Open Lock checks.); Ward Sense (Basically gain trapfinding but if you already have trapfinding you instead gain a +2 bonus to Disable Device, Search and Spellcraft checks involving traps. May use Spellcraft to identify magic traps & wards within 60ft. as if using Detect Magic or Read Magic.); Craft Hands (You gain the ability to make Disable Device and Open Lock checks from upwards of 60ft. away in addition to being able to move/manipulate any object weighing up to 5 pounds.) and Invisibility (Once per day you may use the Invisibility spell with a caster level equaling your character level).
Useful for: Any rogue who would favor thievery over murder. The prestige class brings in a +6 bonus to Disable Device and Open Lock (not to mention being able to use such skills from up to 60ft away) in addition to some nice little abilities. This is probably the best option for any thief in E6, baring Artificers...
Other Notes:

Beast Heart Adept (Dungeonscape)
Requirements: Handle Animal 8 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 4 ranks; Animal Affinity and Spend one week along in a dungeon complex.
Benefits: Monstrous Companion (You gain a pet, somewhat akin to a Druid's animal companion, but it comes from such a list: Ankheg, Blink Dog, Giant Eagle, Giant Owl, Hippogriff [4 Hit Die], Krenshar [4 Hit Die], Otyugh, Owlbear, Pegasus or Worg); Monster Empathy (Gain a pseduo-wild empathy ability like a Druid but towards magical beasts [with no restriction on their intelligence score]. You may also use it on animals and aberattions [with an int score of 1 or 2] but at a -4 penatly]) and Monster Handler (You can use Handle Animal on magical beasts & aberrations [with an int score of 1 or 2].)
Useful for: Not only does it open up a whole slew of new creatures to gain as pets through Handle Animal (hello Hyrda!!!) but you gain a sweet new pet (I'd recommend the Pegasus as it has so mant benfits). Full BaB also makes this an attractive to any warrior hoping to increase his mounted prowess.

Master Inquisitive (Eberron Campaign Setting)
Requirements: Gather Information 6 ranks, Search 3 ranks, Sense Motive 6 ranks and Investigate.
Benefits: Solid skills; Zone of Turth (once per day cast the spell as a SLA); Bonus Feat (choose from a large list of skill-based feats); Contact (Gain a third level npc who provides non-combat assistance through services or information once per week [and demands a small compensation].) and Discern Lies (once per day cast the spell as a SLA).
Useful for: Any Urban Ranger 3 can immedaitly hop into this prestige class which does a good job at simulating a detective. Handy for any urban or high intrigue-based campaign the prestige class serves its niche job well.
Other Notes:

Walker in the Waste (Sandstorm)
Requirements: Any nongood; Head Endurance and the ability to cast at least three spells of the Sand or Thirst domain as divine spells.
Benefits: Improved Heat Endurance (gain the feat); Desiccating Touch (As a touch attack for 2d6 damage [or 2d8 to plants & water-based elementals] you draw the moisture from a creature); The Wasting (Once per day you can transform some sand into a disease and upon chucking it at an opponent within 20ft. potentially mummify them) and Local Drought (In a 20ft. radius around your character you raise the temperature band one level higher or to hot [whichever higher].
Useful for: Third level clerics gain quick access to this prestige class which serves as a handy tool in building a villain for any desert-based campaign/adventure. Desiccating Touch is a useful attack as few creatures have any damage reduction towards it, The Wastings is a pretty potent disease which makes for a strong narrative tool should a player character be struck with it and Local Drought seems ineffectual but should a Walker be able to get the heat level to Extreme Heat they can start to really play with a party who uses any metal items in battle).
Other Notes: You'll lose a caster level going in, so be prepared for such sacrifices

Thurbane

2011-06-28, 07:13 PM

One interesting point with Soul Eater - if you thrown it on a caster chassis, say Duskblade, and then use your E6 "epic" feats, you can pick up Improved Energy Drain and then Spell Drain. The ability to steal memorized spells from opponents is definitely worth 2 feats IMHO.

Yora

2011-06-29, 02:54 AM

Okay, we are now at more than 40 prestige classes. Does anyone have a good idea how to improve on this? Something like making more detailed descriptions with step by step explainations how the individual abilities interact with each other and maybe a rating how good the classes are?

Akal Saris

2011-06-30, 03:13 PM

By the way, how are you getting a paladin mount with 6 base HD? Heavy Warhorse is 4HD, I'm having trouble thinking of one available at level 5 with more.

I was about to say that a cohort who gains enough XP to pass the level barrier just up and leaves, but that appears to be a 3.0 rule that didn't carry over. Instead, cohorts are indeed stuck. They can't even gain the XP that the others use to get epic feats, since their XP total itself is fixed to one below that needed to level up.

I've lost the character sheet, but I think it was through advancing the mount class feature along another step with an E6 feat.

With cohorts, I suppose you could have a crafting artificer to spend all that experience on building you stuff, but that's rather limiting and cheesy.

Talionis

2012-07-08, 07:14 PM

Would Arachnomancer be good? It adds a few spells to a spell list caster like a Warmage or Duskblade.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2012-07-08, 08:46 PM

Regarding the not-prerequisite caster levels of items, it's a very common misconception that it's to be included among the prerequisites, mostly due to the pre-errata DMG. I'm not surprised that this misconception is still hindering progress for E6.

Regardless of whether or not an item's caster level should determine whether or not it should be available, there can still be Midgard Dwarves from Frostburn in an E6 setting, which can craft any magic arms/armor, wondrous, or ring items regardless of the prerequisites, including intelligent items, epic items, and even artifacts of those types. There are still monsters with higher level spellcasting capabilities such as Nagas, Lammasus, and Dragons which can take item creation feats or cooperate to contribute part of the prerequisites for a given item. Caster levels of spell-like abilities are still caster levels and can be used to qualify for item creation feats and to meet item prerequisites, and outsiders with high caster levels can be summoned by E6 characters via Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm).

Limiting what items are available according to their default caster levels is nothing short of arbitrary. The designers and their rules never intended for an item's caster level to be a factor in its acquisition. The misconception that an item's default caster level is a prerequisite for creating it should not impose any unfair limitations on an E6 game, especially since >6th level prerequisites can be easily circumvented per the above paragraph.

Interesting. How does beastmaster stack with natural bond?

If a Druid 5/Beastmaster 1 takes natural bond, they take a 7th level druid companion (which BM lets them qualify for), which would make their effective druid level 3, but then natural bond boosts it back up to 6, yes? So that Dire Eagle Warbeast flying mount with the full 6th level Druid +4 bonus hit dice is a possibility?

I'd normally hesitate to trade away that extra wildshape, but in E6, extra wildshape uses are just a feat away...all you really end up losing is a single level 3 spell slot? Beastmaster ends up being an awesome druid PrC in E6. (I suppose it's not a terrible single level dip in normal d20 either...)

Actually, a Druid 4 with Natural Bond can obtain a "level -6" companion. Per the text, you must be at least a 4th level druid and your modified level for its benefits must be greater than zero. The "X level or higher" headers of the table are in direct conflict with this when you consider non-core effect such as Natural Bond. Those headers are convenient for quickly seeing what would be available to a druid of a given level in a core-only game, but they're not hard limits on when you can gain those companions.

Regarding a Druid 5/ Beastmaster 1 with Natural Bond, you would have to count your total level for the Animal Companion class feature first, which means Druid+Beastmaster+3. Individual effects can be applied in the most beneficial order, but a single effect cannot be split up so its bonuses can be applied in different orders. Since both classes get a class feature of the same name, it's the same class feature and must be counted as a singular effect. You wouldn't gain any benefit from Natural Bond with a "level -3" companion, but for a "level -6" companion you would count your full character level.

Throw in some Bloodline level shenanigans and you can have an animal companion with epic feats in E6. Taking your Bloodline levels before your second class level, each one costs you 1,000 XP. Spending one virtual level's worth of XP will get you five Bloodline levels. Go something like Druid 3/ Wizard 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Beastmaster 1, using this ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) for Wizard and Sorcerer, and your effective Druid level for your animal companion is (3+5)+(1+5)/2+(1+5)/2+(1+5+3)=23. Take Exalted Companion (BoED) and get a Celestial version for a "level -1" and you're still above the first epic bonus at 21, and your companion can take Vow of Poverty and get the bonuses for 16 HD. Get two virtual levels worth of Bloodline levels and your effective Druid level is 38, for a 26 HD Celestial Riding Dog that can take Epic Vow of Poverty (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19530250).

ThiagoMartell

2012-07-09, 12:00 PM

Just want to point out that Horizon Walker is pretty good for Barbarians, since it can make you immune to fatigue.

Talionis

2012-07-24, 01:25 PM

Arachnomancer (DotU)
Requirements:
Alignment: Any Evil.
Base Save Bonus: Fortitude +4
Skills: Climb (+3), Knowledge (nature) (+4)
Spells: Able to cast spider climb, summon swarm, and web as arcane spells
Special: The candidate must undergo a scarification ritual
Benefits: Poison save bonus, Speak with spiders, Spider magic (adds spells especially spider summoning spells)
Useful for: Arcane Casters that can get the Fort Save high enough to add some spells to their spell list.

Duke of URL

2012-07-24, 02:32 PM

I can't do a full post right now, but warweaver can be gained by wizards and sorcerers, and can just be squeased into by a bard with versitile spellcaster + heighten spell. This makes for a great buffer wizards or sorcerer.

A sorcerer would be stuck with 2nd-level spells based on the lost caster level, though.

If early entry tricks are allowed, however, you could enter War Weaver as early as 4th level by going Illuman Wizard 3 with Improved Sigil: Krau; still get 3rd-level spells, CL is back to 6th, and quiescent weave 2 isn't bad at all.

Mystic Theurge (SRD)
Requirements: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks, Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.
Benefits: Improve caster level in both arcane and divine casting classes
Drawbacks: Requires early-entry tricks
Optimization: Iluman with Krau sigil and Improved Sigil: Krau feat means that you could technically meet the casting requirements at level 2 with (Arcane) 1 / (Divine) 1, using the improved sigil power to heighten one spell from each discipline to 2nd level. The skill requirements push you to level 3, however.

Should get you 5th level arcane 4th-level divine (CL 6 for either, from Krau sigil), or vice-versa. Double 5th (meaning double 3rd-level spells) if you can sneak in the extra two skill ranks by character level 2.

Using an Illuman base, I like Archivist 1 / Wizard 2 / Mystic Theurge 2 / War Weaver 1 -- you are limited to 2nd-level spells, but you get a fair number of them and your divine spells work through the Eldritch Tapestry.

cagemarrow

2012-07-24, 02:43 PM

For PrC classes that only require max skill ranks in one skill they can be entered earlier than usual with the Favored in House and Primary Contact feats from Cityscape. They let you pick on skill and have an extra rank in that skill above your normal max. This can be use full for getting early entry into the likes of Horizon Walker or my favorite Bloodstorm Blade.

Lonely Tylenol

2012-07-25, 05:56 PM

If this works as written, being able to get a 5th level cohort in E6 is otherwise impossible, so you're able to pick up a benefit here that literally no other combination of classes can possibly achieve. That said, I'm not sure Manifester 5/Cohort 5 is worth the tradeoff vs. Manifester 6/Cohort 4.

...although Cohort 5 could be another caster with 3rd level spells. YMMV?

Well, there are feats in 3.0 (Heroes of Battle) and 3.5 (Dragon Magazine) that increase the maximum level of your cohort, for whatever that is worth.

Cieyrin

2012-07-25, 06:59 PM

Well, there are feats in 3.0 (Heroes of Battle) and 3.5 (Dragon Magazine) that increase the maximum level of your cohort, for whatever that is worth.

Heroes of Battle isn't 3.0, it's 3.5. :smallconfused:

Lonely Tylenol

2012-07-25, 08:04 PM

Heroes of Battle isn't 3.0, it's 3.5. :smallconfused:

You're right! I'm sorry, I posted that just after waking up and didn't reference my books. I'm not sure what on earth made me think
"3.0".

In that case, Thrallherd's ability is worth a feat, perfectly within the normative 3.5 rulebook range, which, in the E6 economy, is not worth nearly as much as elsewhere.

Lonely Tylenol

2012-08-27, 11:01 PM

Yogibear41

2013-03-26, 10:01 PM

I think you mean 2nd level but otherwise yes.

Mr Tumnus

2013-11-05, 05:50 AM

This is a very narrow focus, of course, and very specific to the campaign, but I've come to find that the Ironsoul Forgemaster can reach third level in the prestige class via cagemarrow's mention of the Cityscape feats, and is thus one of the few (if any) legitimate E6 builds that can actually create a +3 Greatsword or other +3 weapon or armor.

Actually you could hit +4 Magic Weapons/Armor. The Requirements for Ironsoul Forgemaster are that you need to be a nonevil dwarf with 8 ranks in craft, 2 in knowledge arcana and have the ability to shape soulmelds (which is easily fulfilled with the shape soulmeld feat).

Dwarven Artificer 4/Ironsoul Forgemaster 2

For the purpose of crafting magic arms and armor your Caster Level is 12, Artificer Level +2 (6) Ironsoul Forgemaster Level x3 (6)

Vhaidara

2013-11-05, 09:38 AM

I know the Dread Witch Prestige from Heroes of Horror can be entered as your 3rd level, because of Precocious Apprentice

Prerequisite

arcane caster level 1st, Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15,
Benefit

Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.
Special

You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character.

Wiz/Sor 1, take Precocious Apprentice (Scare is your spell), and then take level 2 in any class with a +2 base Will save. Boom, level 2 character with Cause Fear and Scare, 3 ranks in Knowledge(arcana), and a +4 base Will save.

This is a horrible build for optimization, because you won't get 2nd level spells until level 4 at best, but otherwise you have a prestige that you can finish by level 7 and you can ignore immunity to fear.

Deox

2013-11-05, 10:23 AM

An interesting class to use is Knight Phantom (Eberron: Five Nations).

Prereqs: Still Spell, Ride 4 ranks, Proficiency with all martial weapons, and the ability to cast Phantom steed.

Benefits: Additional use(s) of Phantom Steed, ability to ignore arcane spell failure in light armor. Your levels in Knight Phantom and any arcane casting class stack for the purposes of CL for your Phantom Steed properties.

Notes: Interestingly enough, the Dragonmarked Heir has been mentioned, and when using the Least Dragonmark of Passage, this will upgrade it for free to get you a phantom steed, thus qualifying you.

Makes one hell of a mount, even at lower levels. Use Duskblade as your chassis. Combine with a channeled spell and Ride by attack and enjoy.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-11-05, 10:41 AM