BoVD Mindrape

[DoctorGlock]

So, I was skimming my BoVD today and came across this little gem.

Mindrape

The spell description reads "The caster enters the mind of a creature, learning everything that creature knows"
Since spontaneous casters "learn" and "know" spells, does this allow a sorcerer with mindrape to achieve infinite cosmic power?
If you know mental pinnacle, will your mindraped psionic powers give you the abilities of a powerful psion?
Is this spell's entire purpose supposed to be an instant BBEG recipe?

[Fouredged Sword]

No. You could know particular things, but the spell does not allow for any copying of class features or skills. That would be silly.

[Shadowknight12]

There are no mechanical benefits from casting Mindrape upon a person, so you get, effectively, nothing. No extra skill points, no spells, no powers. You get only whatever information the DM sees fit to give you. If I was the DM, I would prepare an extensive background for the character, with all the important things that happened in the person's life, and hand it to you. The spell never says that it must give you the answers you're looking for on a silver platter. Like the caster who casts Mindrape and receives an info-dump that comprises the entirety of a person's mind (it's even worse the longer-lived they were!), you too get a few pages of fluff text dumped on your lap.

[Optimator]

While we're on the subject, is there a difference between Mindrape and Programmed Amnesia?

[Shadowknight12]

While we're on the subject, is there a difference between Mindrape and Programmed Amnesia?

Yes. Mindrape allows you to turn a person to whatever alignment you wish. Furthermore, you can implement subtle behaviour alterations that go beyond the range of mere memories. You can implant false knowledge, false feelings, false ethics, etc. I'm using the spell, myself, to turn a LG aasimar paladin into one of the BBEG's assassins. Even if the "Is now evil" aspect is solved with Break Enchantment or the like, the BBEG has re-written his mind extensively, to the point where he will still murder those she wants him to murder because his false ethics and feelings drive him towards that.

[Taelas]

It is an incredibly powerful spell -- but it is not that powerful. Class features require training that he doesn't have.

The BBEG would know everything about how to gain those abilities that the original mind did, though.

[DoctorGlock]

enough about them, that even if he cannot cast them, he can arcane fusion them out?

[Taelas]

No. He doesn't know the spells. He knows what the character in question knows about them, but that is not enough to know a spell (even for a sorcerer, who does not learn spells through study).

[Madcrafter]

I wouldn't think you could arcane fusion them. While you may technically "know" the spell, since you couldn't "effectively [...] cast two other spells using [the] spell's 5th-level spell slot." you couldn't cast them normally using mindrape as ruled above.

Edit: Ninjas!

[DoctorGlock]

bah, curses. Guess I'll have to make the BBEG a shadowcraft mage.

[Tokiko Mima]

While we're on the subject, is there a difference between Mindrape and Programmed Amnesia?

Programmed Amnesia also takes dramatically longer (hours) to cast, requiring a willing or helpless (or extremely naive) subject. Mindrape is usable in a typical combat encounter, and is an evil subtyped spell.

[Analytica]

If I Mindrape two individuals at once (say I quicken one), could I redirect the feed of information between them to swap memory, identity and personality structure between them? Stats and class abilities obviously won't change, but the rest?

[Taelas]

You can implant the memories of one into the other, but not both ways. Even when you use Quicken Spell, one is cast first (and takes effect first). You would have to use a third mind rape to change the first person's memories into those of the second's.

[Amnestic]

If I Mindrape two individuals at once (say I quicken one), could I redirect the feed of information between them to swap memory, identity and personality structure between them? Stats and class abilities obviously won't change, but the rest?

Duration is Instantaneous so...no, I don't think so. You could transfer information from the first to the second (since you would absorb First's knowledge, and could then plant it into Second's Head), but I think it would require a third casting to put Second's Knowledge into the First's Head.

I may be mistaken though ;p

[Fouredged Sword]

DnD doesn't really have things that happen at the same time. RAW would have one casting hapen with all effects and then the the second would happen.

You could take everything from one mind and dump it into another though, it would just be one way with you acting as temporary storage. If you want to dump the second person back into the first, you would require a third casting.

[DoctorGlock]

quicken might not work, what about twin, then they go off simultaneously

[Shadowknight12]

quicken might not work, what about twin, then they go off simultaneously

Regardless of the hilarity of figuring out how to cast a twinned 9th level spell pre-epic, it doesn't work like that. Since they are happening at the same time, you can't transmit information between minds. When you cast Twin Spell, it's as though you were creating a clone of yourself to cast the same spell at a different target, at the same time you are casting the original spell at the original target.

It's not:

C <--> A <--> B

It's:

A <--> B
A' <--> C

And then A and A' merge again, in this tortuous metaphor.

[awa]

any major personality changes can be fixed with break enchantment wish or miracle fixes everything else. completely rewriting his ethical code or programing an individual to kill loved one sound like major changes to me.

[Flame of Anor]

Regardless of the hilarity of figuring out how to cast a twinned 9th level spell pre-epic, it doesn't work like that. Since they are happening at the same time, you can't transmit information between minds. When you cast Twin Spell, it's as though you were creating a clone of yourself to cast the same spell at a different target, at the same time you are casting the original spell at the original target.

Well, I think it would be a perfectly reasonable houserule to allow it, though.

[Infernalbargain]

Regardless of the hilarity of figuring out how to cast a twinned 9th level spell pre-epic, it doesn't work like that. Since they are happening at the same time, you can't transmit information between minds. When you cast Twin Spell, it's as though you were creating a clone of yourself to cast the same spell at a different target, at the same time you are casting the original spell at the original target.

It's only a DC 54 spellcraft. Not that bad by level 17.

[Shadowknight12]

Well, I think it would be a perfectly reasonable houserule to allow it, though.

Only if the player really wants to. If it's an NPC? He cast it three times.