Bullrush clarification

[3Power]

Is the first step in a bullrush actually making an attack roll? or do you begin with the strength check? The confusing line is "You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. "

[Fax Celestis]

No.


Bull Rush

You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Initiating a Bull Rush

First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.) Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, make the attack roll and then roll to see whether the attack went astray.)

Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

Bull Rush Results

If you beat the defender’s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender’s check result. You can’t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)

If you fail to beat the defender’s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

All you do is move into their space, and then shove.

[Cog]

In fact, I'd say that's one of the things that helps push Dungeoncrashers up by a tier; it gives Fighters an easy way of getting around not only AC but a lot of miss chances as well.

[3Power]

Ok, but I have a second question, thus far when bullrushed into anything the defender has ended up knocked prone, but upon reading dungeoncrasher, does this not apply to walls?

[Fax Celestis]

Ok, but I have a second question, thus far when bullrushed into anything the defender has ended up knocked prone, but upon reading dungeoncrasher, does this not apply to walls?

That doesn't happen normally. You only knock prone on a bull-rush with certain feats or features, such as Shock Trooper's Domino Rush. Without Dungeoncrasher or Domino Rush, shoving someone into an object or another creature just halts their movement.

[Metahuman1]

Ok, Since were talking Bullrush, I actually had a couple of questions.

If I took proficiency with a reach weapon, spiked chain is popular so let's say that, then took the Dungeoncrasher variant and the Knockback feat form Races of Stone, would I then be able to make an attack of opportunity on an opponent that moved into my reach, and make that attack of opportunity a Bullrush with the Knockback feat, and then use the Knockback's Bullrush too get the Damage form Dungeoncrasher? In effect, causing all of the aforementioned feats and class features to function at once and getting them too all offer then benefits too me?

[3Power]

That doesn't happen normally. You only knock prone on a bull-rush with certain feats or features, such as Shock Trooper's Domino Rush. Without Dungeoncrasher or Domino Rush, shoving someone into an object or another creature just halts their movement.Regarding shock trooper, do those free trip attacks provoke AOO and the like?

[Fax Celestis]

That's a quick one. Yes.


Regarding shock trooper, do those free trip attacks provoke AOO and the like?

What? Getting knocked prone doesn't provoke. Standing up does. As far as knocking them over, uh. The feat doesn't say it doesn't, so it does. Unless it's in the CW errata or something.

[3Power]

That doesn't happen normally. You only knock prone on a bull-rush with certain feats or features, such as Shock Trooper's Domino Rush. Without Dungeoncrasher or Domino Rush, shoving someone into an object or another creature just halts their movement.Regarding shock trooper, do those free trip attacks provoke AOO and the like?

[Fax Celestis]

Regarding shock trooper, do those free trip attacks provoke AOO and the like?

They don't say they don't, so they do.

[ShadowcatK]

is it possible to do a charging overrun bull rush (using improved bull rush and improved overrun)?

ie your move speed is 30' (which becomes double on a charge) and trying to do a charging bull rush on creature B 30' away from you thats 10' from a wall and creature A is 20' away from you blocking the path between you and creature B. If you overrun creature A successfully, would you still be allowed the charging bull rush on creature B, since creature A is now prone (not sure if that constitutes as helpless: completely at an opponent’s mercy) and you continue your movement as normal charging bullrush per overrun rules. Or are you only allowed the overrun or the bull rush during the charge?

[KillianHawkeye]

is it possible to do a charging overrun bull rush (using improved bull rush and improved overrun)?

ie your move speed is 30' (which becomes double on a charge) and trying to do a charging bull rush on creature B 30' away from you thats 10' from a wall and creature A is 20' away from you blocking the path between you and creature B. If you overrun creature A successfully, would you still be allowed the charging bull rush on creature B, since creature A is now prone (not sure if that constitutes as helpless: completely at an opponent’s mercy) and you continue your movement as normal charging bullrush per overrun rules. Or are you only allowed the overrun or the bull rush during the charge?

No, because you can't overrun as part of a charge at all. It's in the errata.

Even if you ignore the errata, this would only work without Improved Overrun, because you would need the person to avoid you in order to still have an action left to Bull Rush the other target. Taking Improved Overrun takes away the opponent's ability to avoid you, thus making you spend your standard action on the Overrun and having nothing left after your movement ends (at least, not without some extra action-granting shenanigans).

Also, being prone absolutely does not make an enemy helpless. I don't know where you got that idea. To be considered helpless, you must be completely immobilized, i.e. paralyzed, tied up or manacled enough that you can't move, or unconscious.

[ShadowcatK]

No, because you can't overrun as part of a charge at all. It's in the errata.

Even if you ignore the errata, this would only work without Improved Overrun, because you would need the person to avoid you in order to still have an action left to Bull Rush the other target. Taking Improved Overrun takes away the opponent's ability to avoid you, thus making you spend your standard action on the Overrun and having nothing left after your movement ends (at least, not without some extra action-granting shenanigans).

im not sure what Errata your describing. a bull rush is PART of a move action when charging and the Overrun is a standard action that can be taken during a move action when charging. Charge states you cant do a bull rush with a person/creature in front of the intended victim unless they are helpless. you only get one quick/swift, one move and one standard action a round, so going by whats written, you could doing both at the same time while charging; Or is the Errta how its worded for Bull Rush and you can only do one or the other?

If you go by RAW, technically you can do it, it all depends on after being knocked prone from a successful overrun, the opponent is considered "helpless"., If prone could be considered helpless, then you would resolve the overrun portion of the charge first with the enemy in front of your intended target, thAt enemy gets a AoO on you, then do strength checks. If the overrun is successful, the enemy in the way gets knocked prone, is now helpless and you continue with the movement into the intended target and resolve bull rush portion of the charge accordingly (so long as you have the distance to complete per charge) along with any other ability's/feats such as pounce (free attack after successful bull rush). If not then you fail the Overrun, get pushed back 5 feet, you become prone on your backside and your round is over.

However, if the errta for Bull Rush is wrong, your going by RAI and/or being knocked prone does not count as being 'Helpless" as you stated, the whole thing is irrelevant and the maneuver would not work and/or cannot be used. If, as you correctly stated, you don't have improved overrun, the dude in the way sees you coming, steps aside and smacks you in passing as you continue your charge towards your target, which would have happened anyway if you passed within his treat zone while doing a charging bullrush to your target.


Also, being prone absolutely does not make an enemy helpless. I don't know where you got that idea. To be considered helpless, you must be completely immobilized, i.e. paralyzed, tied up or manacled enough that you can't move, or unconscious.

I said "i was not sure if being prone constitutes as being helpless". Actually to be considered Helpless it states: "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy", NOT 'completely Immobilized' at you stated. A enemy can surrender (throws up their arms "i give up and surrender to your mercy") and be considered helpless per the definition. I was uncertain if the enemy is knocked down on the ground staring up at you, would he/she/it would be considered "completely at an opponent's mercy."

[KillianHawkeye]

im not sure what Errata your describing.

The official errata document? The one that says: 'Overrun, Player's Handbook page 48: It's not possible to overrun as part of a charge. Delete "or as part of a charge" from this paragraph.'


a bull rush is PART of a move action when charging

No, if you Bull Rush on a charge, it replaces your attack at the end of it. It's not just something you can do for free. When it says that you can Bull Rush as a part of a Charge, it's referring to the Attack part of the Charge.


If prone could be considered helpless,

Except it isn't. Not by virtue of the condition itself, at any rate.


I said "i was not sure if being prone constitutes as being helpless". Actually to be considered Helpless it states: "A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy", NOT 'completely Immobilized' at you stated. A enemy can surrender (throws up their arms "i give up and surrender to your mercy") and be considered helpless per the definition. I was uncertain if the enemy is knocked down on the ground staring up at you, would he/she/it would be considered "completely at an opponent's mercy."

There are rules for fighting while prone, you know. Or they can just take a move action to stand up. Sure, an enemy could theoretically surrender when it's their turn, and then I guess you could say they're helpless on a technicality, but it's not going to happen while it's still your turn and you're just trying to run over them to get to their allies.

The only way to actually make this work is by getting a Belt of Battle or some other way of getting an extra Standard Action on your turn. You can then do the Overrun (a Standard Action) during your single Move, and provided you end up adjacent to another enemy, you can use the second Standard Action to Bull Rush them. Charging would not be involved in this sequence of events at all (because you can't Charge the second enemy with someone in the way, and you can't Overrun as part of a charge) so you won't get the +2 bonus to your Bull Rush attempt.


EDIT: Aaaaand I only just now realized that you necro'd this thread from 5 years ago. :smallsigh::smallsigh::smallsigh: