Protecting a buff stack

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The buff stack is a little old place where, we can wreck encounters. Buff stack baby...

With that out of the way, suppose I have a standard DMM Persist Cleric, or a Metamagic Effect Persisting Incantatrix. How do I go about protecting such a character against various dispels? I can think of a few strategies, but they all have limitations:

1. Pump caster level.
Methods: Ring of Enduring Arcana, Ring of Arcane Might, Orange Ioun Stone, Craft Magic Tattoo, Bead of Karma, ???
Pros: It's a simple, direct way to increase your odds against dispel magic and its ilk. It also generally has a nice effect on the buff stack itself.
Cons: It can get really expensive. A determined dispel caster can get his CL higher than yours (yes, even then). Unless your CL is 10 higher than the dispel caster, just one targeted dispel is probably going to take out enough spells to really hurt.
2. Don't get targeted.
Method: Normally difficult to consistently achieve, but an incantatrix can persist Greater Invisibility and/or Greater Mirror Image with a modicum of effort put into spellcraft. DMM Clerics can probably do something I'm missing.
Pros: If you don't get targeted, you don't suffer a targeted dispel.
Cons: Area dispel can still hurt through attrition (again, dispel caster will probably roll high enough at least once). Weak to See Invis/True Seeing.
3. Store Dispel Magic (or Greater) into a ring of counterspells.
Method: What it says on the tin.
Pros: Kills the threat of dispel outright, if it works.
Cons: Only works once. Only works on one kind of dispel, and there are many kinds. Only works for a targeted dispel, and even then a wrathful DM might get into RAW shenanigans on the target of dispel (and let's face it; if you're a DMM Cleric or an Incantatrix, you might have a wrathful DM).
4. Action Denial
Method: Celerity --> kill dispel caster; Divine Defiance --> Counterspell
Pros: See #3
Cons: Before foresight or shapechange into a dire tortoise, surprise rounds can be a problem. Persisting long-range detection can be key. Invisibility probably also complements this strategy.
Of course, the most important method of protection in this situation is to shield your head from thrown DMGs, but assuming you're playing a high powered game where this is expected, what am I missing? I'm also curious as to what methods there are (outside of tinfoil hat) for a buff stack incantatrix to deal with AMFs. I'm aware of divine methods.

[holywhippet]

A high level, but viable option is a prismatic wall or sphere.

[Elric VIII]

1) Arcane Mark, over and over and over. It lasts forever and you can cast all of your buffs at -1CL then cast (or get your Arcane buddy to cast) Arcane Mark on you 6 times a day for a while.

Unless your enemies are able to discern that you have a bunch of buffs up, they cannot reasonably hit you with a targetted dispel unless your DM wants your buffs gone. If that is the case they're going no matter what.


2)Craft Contingent Spell. DDoor out of range when you are targetted by a dispelling effect. Or hit an enemy with a damaging spell to disrupt their casting when they target you with a dispel effect. These are nice because you don't even need to be aware of the effect.

[Big Fau]

Spellblade Shurikens set to Dispel Magic and other antimagic effects provides immunity to those effects.

[Elric VIII]

Spellblade Shurikens set to Dispel Magic and other antimagic effects provides immunity to those effects.

You just have to be careful about the many many types of Dispel Magic.

Dispelling Touch, Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Dispelling Wall, Reaving Dispel; just to name a few of the good ones. There are 4-5 more, IIRC.

[Big Fau]

You just have to be careful about the many many types of Dispel Magic.

Dispelling Touch, Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Dispelling Wall, Reaving Dispel; just to name a few of the good ones. There are 4-5 more, IIRC.

MJD being the big one.

[dextercorvia]

Spell Turning helps vs. Targeted dispels.

[holywhippet]

MJD being the big one.

You mean mage's disjunction? To be fair it's a level 9 spell so it's meant to be about as subtle as a wrecking ball. There shouldn't be much that can stop that kind of spell dead in it's tracks short of epic magic.

[NNescio]

You mean mage's disjunction? To be fair it's a level 9 spell so it's meant to be about as subtle as a wrecking ball. There shouldn't be much that can stop that kind of spell dead in it's tracks short of epic magic.

Immediate Action: Wings of Cover

Or Celerity + Anything (Relevant).

[Aquillion]

The simplest option (while it's often not an option) is to avoid direct confrontation with people who can dispel your buffs!

It would be interesting to try and make a wizard based around remote applications of power, trying to contribute without ever being present, or at least by staying far enough away from all opponents that they can't effectively target you...

Of course, at that point you may not need all your buffs anyway.

[Popertop]

He would be the wizard that invents skype centuries later

[NNescio]

The simplest option (while it's often not an option) is to avoid direct confrontation with people who can dispel your buffs!

It would be interesting to try and make a wizard based around remote applications of power, trying to contribute without ever being present, or at least by staying far enough away from all opponents that they can't effectively target you...

Of course, at that point you may not need all your buffs anyway.

Isn't that the theoretically-optimised paranoid wizard who spends all his time hiding in his personal demiplane? Who isn't really an adventurer at all?

[Tokiko Mima]

I find that an elegant solution for simultaneously achieving 2 and 3 is the Ring of Spell-Battle (MIC pg. 127) which for a *very* reasonable 12k gold allows you to take control of an enemy casters spell targeting, usually to make them cast the spell on themselves instead. The obvious weakness is it requires Spellcraft skill investment, it's once a day per worn ring, and it has a 60' hard range.

However, you must recognize it has more utility that just catching dispel/greater dispel/reaving dispel, etc. It has allowed me to achieve my DM dream of having the party nearly TPK itself when a wizard got a little too 'nukey'* on an NPC that was wearing a Ring. It was beautiful, I assure you. :smallbiggrin:




* Player 1: "Ah haa! The evil wizard boss thinks he is clever, casting invisibility on himself! I can guess where he is though, and kill him in one blow with my Empowered Maximized Fireball!! Wa haha!"
NPC: *rolls successful Spellcraft check* Oh crap... Redirect spell to center on the players and not me!!
Player 2: "You arrogant ass. You've killed *us*! (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099810/quotes)"
*BLAM*

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If it helps, I was thinking* of an Incantatrix acting as the trusted lieutenant/dragon of a BBEG who, much like previous suggestions, avoids direct confrontation. The players would probably assume buff stacking and start throwing out different kinds of dispel shenanigans, but probably not MDJ.

*This is all theory, though, so advice that doesn't directly apply to this idea still helps.

Edit: Just saw above post... checking... hm. Interesting. Doesn't help with area dispel, and the range is disappointing, but it has other utility. The thing is, would you drop Ring of Arcane Might or Ring of Enduring Arcana?

[Tokiko Mima]

Edit: Just saw above post... checking... hm. Interesting. Doesn't help with area dispel, and the range is disappointing, but it has other utility. The thing is, would you drop Ring of Arcane Might or Ring of Enduring Arcana?

If you're using the rules out of the MIC, you probably don't even need to make that choice. Per the rules on pg. 233 in the 'Improving Magic Items' section, a ring with the effects of Enduring Arcana and Spell-Battle can be had for the low, low price 21k gp, only slightly more than your Ring of Arcane Might. There's also a necklace that lets you put a ring on it, but I rarely use that.

Once the DM knows that you can reflect one dangerous spell per day, you will find a lot fewer spells coming your way. In general, no one wants to feel like they are actually helping their opponents win, after all.

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention: It does help with the area dispel. You can redirect those just like the targetted ones, the only problem is you need to make sure you're within 60' of the caster.

[DeAnno]

In many fields the best defense is a good offense: this applies to dispelling as well. In particular, the Heroes of Battle spell Battlemagic Perception gives you a 100 foot radius where you will notice spells being cast (with appropriate spellcraft checks) and even be given a free action opportunity to counterspell them!

In practical terms, if you have Battlemagic Perception up and Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel on your spell list, you'll notice anyone nearby casting some random form of dispelling on you (even on an area around your party) and be able to attempt to "dispel their dispel" as it were. If something esoteric like Reaving Dispel is used you'll likely need to win a Caster Level check, but against people just flinging Greater Dispels at you you can counter it with reliability as long as you can make your (easy) Spellcraft check.

In situations or campaigns where you fear MJDs being thrown about, having MJD prepared yourself or on your known spell list to counter it with certainty is recommended.

[Darrin]

Spellblade Shurikens set to Dispel Magic and other antimagic effects provides immunity to those effects.

Only targeted dispels. Area-effect dispels completely ignore spellblades. The best defense against area-effects is globe of invulnerability, but that doesn't help against greater dispel or disjunction.


Edit: Just saw above post... checking... hm. Interesting. Doesn't help with area dispel, and the range is disappointing, but it has other utility. The thing is, would you drop Ring of Arcane Might or Ring of Enduring Arcana?

Why would you need to drop a ring? Hand of Glory or Ringsword (A&EG) = extra ring slot.