Fighter scaling damage

[Das Platyvark]

Read, and critique, oh ye of the playground:
I recently had the idea to give the fighter a little boost in power, by allowing him to add another die to a weapon of choice every five levels. Probably a d8, possibly the same die as the weapon's damage.
So, what is the general opinion? OP? Pointless? Good? Anything else?

[Seerow]

Pointless. needs more text

[Cog]

Pointless. needs more text
To expand on this, Fighter's problem isn't just damage output. It can already do that quite well, if it can land a hit in the first place; that's just about all it can do. Giving it a few more dX's of damage might save one feat that would have otherwise gone to another Power attack multiplier or something like that, but does nothing to actually change the game for them.

[Big Fau]

Read, and critique, oh ye of the playground:
I recently had the idea to give the fighter a little boost in power, by allowing him to add another die to a weapon of choice every five levels. Probably a d8, possibly the same die as the weapon's damage.
So, what is the general opinion? OP? Pointless? Good? Anything else?

Damage is not a Fighter's weak points. As summarized over at BG:



Why the Fighter is Tier 5

Lack of Unique Class Features: The main draws of the Fighter class are bonus feats, Base Attack Bonus, armor and weapon proficiencies, and a d10 HD. It's "class features" all draw upon a common pool of rules: Full Attack, Charge, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, Use Skills, Move, Attack, Activate a Magic Item. Every other class in the entire game is capable of utilizing those rules.

Item Dependency: Caused by the Fighter's lack of class features, a Fighter must use magic items to shore up it's weaknesses (Note: Every class is guilty of this to some extent). Without these items, a Fighter is at a horrible disadvantage. However, a Fighter is stuck on the Wealth By Level guideline: They have no reliable means of bypassing that reliance on the WBL (Crafting using the Craft skill is too slow, as is the Profession skill). Furthermore, the magic items a fighter needs consume a huge amount of an individual character's WBL (Magic Weapons are the only items in all DnD capable of hitting 200KGP without using the Custom Magic Item rules).

Multiple Atribute Dependency: Fighters need Con for HP, Str for Damage, Dex for AC, and a varying amount of Int/Wis/Cha depending on feat selection. Attempting to make a Dex-focused Fighter means you will lag behind in damage output, as you have no class features that support the option (worse: Many feats that make use of Weapon Finesse have class feature requirements).

Build Identity Crisis: Every Lockdown Chain Tripper has the exact same feat list. Every Charger has the exact same feat list. Every Archer has the exact same feat list. It gets repetitive very quickly. Furthermore, some builds are highly impractical. Because of these builds, attempting to deviate from the established norm will result in a large liability for your party if you ignore the basics of your style. A Charger who does not have Shock Trooper will be horribly incapable, a Lockdown Chain Tripper who doesn't have Stand Still will not be able to establish his lockdown, and so forth.

Stagnate Combat Options: As stated above, the only actions a Fighter can take during a combat encounter are: Full Attack, Charge, Trip, Bull Rush, Grapple, Disarm, Sunder, Use Skills, Move, Attack, Activate a Magic Item. Using Martial Study to gain additional actions results in you feeling inferior to the Warblade, who can do everything you can, while having a wider arsenal of combat options.

Lack of Out-Of-Combat Flexibility: How do Fighters check for traps? Walking into them. How do Fighters keep watch? Hoping CC ranks in Spot/Listen will actually amount to anything (which it won't, as you lack the Skill Points due to MAD). How do Fighters gather information on a crime lord? They don't without CC ranks, and even then, the rest of the party is better at it. These are but a few of the OOC issues a Fighter faces. Note: Every one of these issues can be addressed by Role Playing or via Magic Items, however doing so is not a part of the Fighter class.

Poor Quality Feat Choices: Take a look at the Fighter's Bonus Feat choices. How many of them are actually useful?

Action Economy: Because the Fighter was printed in the PHB, it was unable to utilize the Swift and Immediate actions. Feats that came post-XPH attempted to correct this issue, but it wasn't enough (very few of those feats are actually useable). In addition, Magic Items that made use of the Swift/Immediate actions were often limited in uses/day, and many of those items were poorly priced/underpowered.

[Seerow]

Yeah, everyone can post long winded explanations, but they shouldn't be needed.

[HunterOfJello]

the Frenzied Berserker PrC does this in a big way and I've heard is quite fun, but it still doesn't improve the general problems that the original melee classes have (as described above)

[Lans]

Its not pointless, it might up the fighter to a low tier 4, compare it to a barbarian. 4.5 vs 7(3 strength, 4 PA) at 5th, 9 vs 10 at 11, 13 vs 11 at 15th and 18 vs 18 at 20.

Not as good as rage with THF, but it also does wonders for archery and TWF.

From a breadth standpoint it frees up fighter feats for things like the combat form feats, and maybe even freeing up the infinitely more valuable level feats.

Edit-Never mind, I read it as an additional d8 to all weapons every 5 levels. Bump from 4.5 to 4.51 maybe.

[Big Fau]

Its not pointless, it might up the fighter to a low tier 4, compare it to a barbarian. 4.5 vs 7(3 strength, 4 PA) at 5th, 9 vs 10 at 11, 13 vs 11 at 15th and 18 vs 18 at 20.

Not as good as rage with THF, but it also does wonders for archery and TWF.

From a breadth standpoint it frees up fighter feats for things like the combat form feats, and maybe even freeing up the infinitely more valuable level feats.

Edit-Never mind, I read it as an additional d8 to all weapons every 5 levels. Bump from 4.5 to 4.51 maybe.

Damage bonuses don't actually matter. Rogues aren't Tier 4 because of Sneak Attack, they are Tier 4 because they have 8+Int Skill Points and decent class features.

Barbarians, likewise, are not Tier 4 because of Rage. They are Tier 4 because they are actually good at things other than combat (keeping watch and tracking, being a good trapfinder with an ACF, etc).

[Ashram]

In my group, we changed enhancement bonuses so that a weapon's damage die scales by one for each +1, up to +5 (So no going over the limit with a +5 bane weapon :P)

Example, fighter with longsword:

0: 1d8
+1: 1d10
+2: 2d6
+3: 2d8
+4: 3d6
+5: 3d8

This would also work with items that grant enhancement bonuses to weapons, such as Amulet of Mighty Fists. This way, it benefits everyone, not just the fighter. Sure, wizards get a boost from it if they use a weapon, but the god-tier conjurers aren't gonna bother with anything except maybe a staff. :P

Maybe instead of doing it for enhancement bonuses, you can adapt this system for fighter levels, as Greater Magic Weapon; I.E. Every four fighter levels, their damage scales up by one for whatever weapon they use.

[Godskook]

Its not pointless, it might up the fighter to a low tier 4, compare it to a barbarian.

1.Fighter already is a high tier 5 or low tier 4, so you're not actually moving it anywhere.

2.Damage does not get you out of tier 5. You can do enough damage to 1-shot the tarrasque with a straight-class fighter, and you're *STILL* tier 5.

3.Barbarian is solid tier 4 cause it can accomplish *ALL* of the following within core:
-Excell in combat
-Fulfill the night watchmen role(Spot/Listen)
-Fulfill the tracker role(Survival)
And with ACFs, optimization, and some prestiging, can accomplish even more.

[MeeposFire]

Damage bonuses don't actually matter. Rogues aren't Tier 4 because of Sneak Attack, they are Tier 4 because they have 8+Int Skill Points and decent class features.

Barbarians, likewise, are not Tier 4 because of Rage. They are Tier 4 because they are actually good at things other than combat (keeping watch and tracking, being a good trapfinder with an ACF, etc).

Shh don't say that too loud or else the barbarian lovers will come at you and tell you are wrong! It happened to me once.

[Lans]

1.Fighter already is a high tier 5 or low tier 4, so you're not actually moving it anywhere.

2.Damage does not get you out of tier 5. You can do enough damage to 1-shot the tarrasque with a straight-class fighter, and you're *STILL* tier 5.

I'm giving it enough points for a grade bump. Instead of 72.3, it gets 72.56.

Actually it does, considering that T5 is where you can do one thing, and not all that well, a ability that enhances that one thing pushes you to tier 4.



3.Barbarian is solid tier 4 cause it can accomplish *ALL* of the following within core:
-Excell in combat
-Fulfill the night watchmen role(Spot/Listen)
-Fulfill the tracker role(Survival)
And with ACFs, optimization, and some prestiging, can accomplish even more.
1 Barbarians don't excel at combat, they excel at melee.
2 Fighter has handle animal that can cover night watchmen role.
3 With ACFs, optimization and some prestiging both are level 9 casters.

[Prime32]

1 Barbarians don't excel at combat, they excel at melee.:smallconfused:
Explain? What makes barbarians so bad at archery?

[Big Fau]

:smallconfused:
Explain? What makes barbarians so bad at archery?

I find it funny that Whirling Frenzy can be used to pump up Ranged attacks.

[Lans]

:smallconfused:
Explain? What makes barbarians so bad at archery?
They are not bad, but they don't really excel. A barbarian gets +2-4 damage with a ranged weapon from class features, compared to the fighters +4 to hit and 6 to damage, then using the targeteer variant, they really aren't excelling.

If they go thrown weapons they need 2 feats, which isn't too bad, but its still +4/4 vs +4/6

The whirling variant is better at it and might get into the excel range territory, but I don't recall the details on it. What book is it from?

[Big Fau]

They are not bad, but they don't really excel. A barbarian gets +2-4 damage with a ranged weapon from class features, compared to the fighters +4 to hit and 6 to damage, then using the targeteer variant, they really aren't excelling.

If they go thrown weapons they need 2 feats, which isn't too bad, but its still +4/4 vs +4/6

The whirling variant is better at it and might get into the excel range territory, but I don't recall the details on it. What book is it from?
The SRD.

The Barbarian is better at long distance due to Spot being a class skill.

[Fuhrmaaj]

Yeah, everyone can post long winded explanations, but they shouldn't be needed.

This.

A half-baked idea deserves a one word response.

Also, fighter and barbarian are roughly equal at combat. Barbarian can do other things so he's tier 4. Period. Damage isn't the only measure of combat and frankly both aren't very useful in combat compared to the tier 3s despite the fact that the tier 3s tend to do less damage. When you understand that, you understand why fighters and barbarians don't excel at combat.

[Sucrose]

The SRD.

The Barbarian is better at long distance due to Spot being a class skill.


The barbarian’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Um, no, it isn't, actually. The presence of Listen does help, but...

Anyway, yeah, Fighters do fine with damage. What they need is at-will shrugging off of status effects, and skills befitting their roles as knights or watchmen or any of the other personas Fighters are supposed to be able to represent.

In combat, in-class means of flight and mobility effects would be nice, but that wouldn't fit most ideas of Fighters. Maybe the ability to have dispel checks take a penalty on their items equal to their class level, representing the ability to take better care of their miscellaneous necessary trinkets would help...

[Curmudgeon]

Pointless. The Fighter already has access to a feat which scales damage with levels: Power Attack, which is dependent on BAB, which the Fighter gets +1 of every level. With a two-handed weapon the Fighter gets 2x the benefit from Power Attack. With other feats like Leap Attack the Fighter gets 4x the benefit from Power Attack. Since most feats provide a static, nonscaling benefit, this scaling is a big deal. Your change is negligible in comparison to a chance for up to +80 per attack from Power Attack at level 20.

You're trying to "fix" one of the few things that Fighters can do well already. There are many more effective ways you could change the rules to help the class, such as with scaling bonuses to saving throws so the Fighter might live through a few magical attacks. Or provide move versatility: let Fighters trip with more weapons, or feint more effectively. Or let them move faster than other classes in encumbering armor. Or give Fighters more AC from their use of shields.

[McSmack]

I'd usually run PF which is a nice upgrade for fighter. Though honestly they still need more actual class abilities.

Some things I'm doing for my games, some of which PF included in some form in their system.

-Everyone gets an extra 2 skill points per level. This is a huge boon to classes that only get 2+int, but is really only a minor bonus to the big skill monkey classes.

Fighter/Barbarian/Paladins get Mettle as a class ability.

Everyone gets Perception (Spot + Listen in 3.5 terms) as a class skill.

Fighters are trained in the use of armor. They can move at full speed in any armor, and as they level their max dex/armor check penalty improves.

Full-attacks only use a single attack action.

I like ToB, but I don't like the warblade completely replacing the fighter (which is does for most builds). So I'm considering turning some of the more interesting maneuvers into a series of discipline trees for the fighter. Basically having them pick a discipline at lvl 1(ish) and give them access to certain maneuvers as 1/encounter abilities. I'd also remove several of its bonus feats to compensate.

[Mastikator]

Pointless. If you want the Fighter to be a useful class, grant the Fighter the ability to subsitute his fighter levels for caster level for the purpose of crafting magic arms and armor, and add craft magic arms and armor to the fighter bonus feat list.
And allow the fighter to freely use his fighter level to attempt to identify a magical weapon or armor, a D20+Int mod+fighter level roll vs DC 10+item enchantment level * 3, takes 10 minutes per enchantment level to study, multiple tries.
Then the Fighter will be able to craft his own magic arms and armor, and identify other's magic weapons making him independent of casters.

I'd add in more skill points per level, add Balance, Heal to class skills. Make wisdom a good save instead of bad.

At level 10 the fighter should be allowed to take a class feature in place of a feat to make a full round attack as a standard action. At level 20, as a capstone class feature, this improves into a move action (still can't do it twice though).