How do racial hit dice work?

[Isearchfortraps]

Hello i have been looking at making a centaur and i am using dnd 3.5 and pathfinder for a upcomming game. However i cannot see how racial hit dice work for in D&D races of the wils it says as part of there raceal you get 4d8 racial hit dice then it latter says you will have less hit dice then most other adventurers your level. Now this confused me cause woudent starting with 4d8 mean a average of 16 extra free hit points? compared to most races 10 or 14? i know i must be missing something but its really driving me nuts also is it size in area 10 fleet of space in leaght or do i need a 10 foot wide corridor just to walk trought it? any help and advice will be greatly apriciated.

[Flickerdart]

Hit Dice are like levels, they aren't free. Having 4 Racial HD means you have 4 levels in being that race. However, there are no class features (so you're usually not as well off as a normal character). Also, you have Level Adjustment, which is even worse because you don't even get HP, BAB, skill points and saves from it. So a Centaur Fighter 1 would be a 7th level character.

And yes, being a Large race means you need 10ft of space to fight effectively. You can squeeze into smaller spaces but will take penalties while doing so.

[Lord Ruby34]

Basically racial hit dice act sort of like class levels, instead of gaining a level in your chosen class you get your racial hit dice and the assorted benefits instead. This is usually not worth it.

And a centaur is like a horse, ten feet long five feet wide.

EDIT: Swordsage'd

[Flickerdart]

And a centaur is like a horse, ten feet long five feet wide.
Nope. D&D 3.5 doesn't have facing rules. A Centaur's battle-space is 10ft by 10ft by 10ft, just like a horse's.

[MeeposFire]

Nope. D&D 3.5 doesn't have facing rules. A Centaur's battle-space is 10ft by 10ft by 10ft, just like a horse's.

He is probably remembering the rules in 3.0 which I believed did work that way.

[Lord Ruby34]

Nope. D&D 3.5 doesn't have facing rules. A Centaur's battle-space is 10ft by 10ft by 10ft, just like a horse's.

Really? I didn't know that. It seems like it would make sense for facing to apply, but then again with drown healing sense might as well not exist half the time.

I guess I need to go add something to that houserules you didn't know were houserules thread.

EDIT:
He is probably remembering the rules in 3.0 which I believed did work that way.

I actually never played 3.0, I didn't really start gaming until three years or so ago.

[Isearchfortraps]

Wait so if i go and make a paladin centaur (pause for laghter) ill only be abel to abtain level 14 paladin? and therefore never get the fianal feat like holy champion? (going off paladin pathfinder style here)

[NNescio]

Hello i have been looking at making a centaur and i am using dnd 3.5 and pathfinder for a upcomming game. However i cannot see how racial hit dice work for in D&D races of the wils it says as part of there raceal you get 4d8 racial hit dice then it latter says you will have less hit dice then most other adventurers your level. Now this confused me cause woudent starting with 4d8 mean a average of 16 extra free hit points? compared to most races 10 or 14? i know i must be missing something but its really driving me nuts also is it size in area 10 fleet of space in leaght or do i need a 10 foot wide corridor just to walk trought it? any help and advice will be greatly apriciated.

Centaurs are Level Adjustment: +2, which means they have 2 less Hit Die (the "4" part of the "4d8") than adventurers of an equivalent level.

To put in greater detail:
Adventurers have an Effective Character Level (ECL), which determines their XP progression. ECL is the sum of a character's Class Levels (in all classes), Racial Hit Die, and Level Adjustment. Races with a single Racial Hit Die count as zero RHD.

A Level 10 Human Fighter is ECL 10, and has 10d10 hp, with 10 hit die. A Level 4 Centaur Fighter is also ECL 10, but only has 4d8 + 4d10 hp, for a total of 8 hit die.

(Also, 4d8 has an average of 18 hp.)

As for movement and corridor width, refer to the squeezing rules:


Squeezing

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.

When a Large creature (which normally takes up four squares) squeezes into a space that’s one square wide, the creature’s miniature figure occupies two squares, centered on the line between the two squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square.

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a -4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Edit: Swordsaged. Mostly.


Wait so if i go and make a paladin centaur (pause for laghter) ill only be abel to abtain level 14 paladin? and therefore never get the fianal feat like holy champion? (going off paladin pathfinder style here)

You'll be a Level 14 Centaur Paladin while the rest of the party have Level 20 'standard race' characters, yes.

[Divide by Zero]

Wait so if i go and make a paladin centaur (pause for laghter) ill only be abel to abtain level 14 paladin? and therefore never get the fianal feat like holy champion? (going off paladin pathfinder style here)

Correct. At character level 20, you will have 2 levels of Level Adjustment (true "dead" levels that provide you with no benefit at all), 4 levels of Monstrous Humanoid (which advance your saves, BAB, HP, and other such basic stuff, but give you no other abilities), and 14 levels of Paladin.

[Isearchfortraps]

ok now i have a question about balace how could you make a centour keep his large size but not need the racial hit dice is there a way to trim him down to a fair build as a large creature by simply removing some of his meany stat ajustments? (tbh i though the inability to clime a ladder or anyithign really would kinds even things out lol.

[Thurbane]

Racial HD are usually pretty awful in a build, but there are a couple of instances where they aren't as painful.

- Full BAB RHD (Dragon, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid or Outsider) on a melee build isn't anywhere near as bad as on a casting or pseudocasting build - still, not generally as good as an equivalent number of levels in a class or PrC.

- If the creature has built in casting that will stack with a base class, such as the Rakshasa.

...of course, the other issue with creatures with RHD is that they usually have quite hefty LA as well, and this is the real killer. The Level Advancement Buyoff rules in UA help a bit, but you'll usually end up well behind the curve.

[Lord Ruby34]

ok now i have a question about balace how coudl you make a centour keep his large size but not need the racial hit dice is there a way to trim hi down to a fair build as a arge creature by simply removing soem of his meany stat ajustments? (tbh i though the inability to clime a ladder or anyithign really would kinds even things out lol.

You can try buying off the level adjustment, but that's not really what your asking for. Anyway the rules for that are here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

If you can do that the penalty won't be as steep. You could also talk to you DM about changing up the centaurs racial hit dice, or something along those lines.

[NNescio]

ok now i have a question about balace how coudl you make a centour keep his large size but not need the racial hit dice is there a way to trim hi down to a fair build as a arge creature by simply removing soem of his meany stat ajustments? (tbh i though the inability to clime a ladder or anyithign really would kinds even things out lol.

Some DMs allow you to remove Racial Hit Die. You'll lose the 4d8 hp and its assorted benefits (BAB, Saves, and feat progression), but this will free up four levels for you to take, which is more effective in the long run. You'll still be saddled with the +2 LA though.

This is a houserule however, so ask your DM first. Mind you, this can result in a rather powerful martial character in a low-optimization party, which may seem overpowered to your DM.

Alternatively, you can do this in-game by getting Level Drained, thereby losing your RHD, and then levelling back in a normal PC class. This is considered to be rather cheesy though, despite doing the same as the above with more work.

[Flickerdart]

ok now i have a question about balace how could you make a centour keep his large size but not need the racial hit dice is there a way to trim him down to a fair build as a large creature by simply removing some of his meany stat ajustments? (tbh i though the inability to clime a ladder or anyithign really would kinds even things out lol.
Walk up to a Wight. Take three energy drains to the face. Never accept a Restoration spell. Congrats - you're now a 1 RHD, 2 LA creature (since you need that final HD to live). Note that this is pretty cheesy.

Large races in general always have pretty steep LA. The races with powerful build (Goliath and Half-Giant) count as Large for lots of things (weapon size, bull rush and grapples and such) while taking up the space of a Medium creature. They both have +1 LA and no RHD.

[Thurbane]

Can the Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur Dragon Mag templates be applied to a Bariaur?

[Isearchfortraps]

well you see its jsut em and a freind playing this campain and i was supposed to dm couse well of the 2 of us i read more of the rules though as you can tell i tend to "strech" the rules abit offten to make up for my missing knowledge normaly we get by ok but i didint wana make a charecter that made her more then less useless. This leads to my possible solution as a dm i could just remove level ajustment and racial dice for all races but how badly would this mess with the game balance? (also with 2 players we tend to get steam rolled but as she plays a elf rogue i dont wana way out do her in cambat eather.

[Lord Ruby34]

well you see its jsut em and a freind playing this campain and i was supposed to dm couse well of the 2 of us i read more of the rules though as you can tell i tend to "strech" the rules abit offten to make up for my missing knowledge normaly we get by ok but i didint wana make a charecter that made her more then less useless. This leads to my possible solution as a dm i could just remove level ajustment and racial dice for all races but how badly would this mess with the game balance? (also with 2 players we tend to get steam rolled but as she plays a elf rogue i dont wana way out do her in cambat eather.

If you removed all racial hit dive and level adjustment you could theoretically have a player playing this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelAstralDeva) at level 1. If your lucky.

EDIT: To clarify this is a very, very bad idea. I believe there were a few threads on someone playing in a game like this a while back. I can't remember how it ended, but my guess is not well.

[NNescio]

well you see its jsut em and a freind playing this campain and i was supposed to dm couse well of the 2 of us i read more of the rules though as you can tell i tend to "strech" the rules abit offten to make up for my missing knowledge normaly we get by ok but i didint wana make a charecter that made her more then less useless. This leads to my possible solution as a dm i could just remove level ajustment and racial dice for all races but how badly would this mess with the game balance? (also with 2 players we tend to get steam rolled but as she plays a elf rogue i dont wana way out do her in cambat eather.

It'll lead to stupidity like this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200752) Plus proliferation of things like Ethergaunt Wizards, if your players really, really want to break the game.

Yes, the Elf Rogue will go cry in the corner. If you want to maintain any semblance of balance, don't do this. At all.

[Isearchfortraps]

0 i see dam lol though i dont think she would ever try and brake the game that bad i see what you mean.... ok back to the drawing bard on what races of pally to play. thx anyway guys

[Cog]

Can the Half-Ogre or Half-Minotaur Dragon Mag templates be applied to a Bariaur?
I'm pretty sure not; both versions of Bariaur are Outsiders, IIRC.

[NNescio]

0 i see dam lol though i dont think she would ever try and brake the game that bad i see what you mean.... ok back to the drawing bard on what races of pally to play. thx anyway guys

See this guide. (https://docs.google.com/View?id=dcrgj6j5_15cf2jkgfh) Note that Half-Orcs and Half-Elves are terrible races in normal 3.5, if you aren't using pathfinder stats for them.

[Thurbane]

I'm pretty sure not; both versions of Bariaur are Outsiders, IIRC.
I see - I've never actually read the Dragon Mag templates, I wasn't sure if they were only for Humanoids or not.

[Kojiro]

Oh, this is actually relevant to something I've been wondering about recently. It doesn't apply to me myself, but some people I know wanted to play certain races that had level adjustments and racial hit dice. Things like gnolls and lizardfolk, mostly things with only +1, although some had +2. None of us really understood racial hit dice all that well, and the game's starting off at level one, so the level adjustment means that those races may not be an option at all.

The DM(s), however, would be open to modifying the races in a manner that would take away the level adjustment and make them balanced character races, if they can be provided with a way to do such. Anyone here know how that would be possible without getting overly complicated or ridiculous?

[Prime32]

Wait, you're playing Pathfinder? PF doesn't use Level Adjustment.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monsters-as-pcs

A PF centaur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/centaur) is an lv3 character.



Oh, this is actually relevant to something I've been wondering about recently. It doesn't apply to me myself, but some people I know wanted to play certain races that had level adjustments and racial hit dice. Things like gnolls and lizardfolk, mostly things with only +1, although some had +2. None of us really understood racial hit dice all that well, and the game's starting off at level one, so the level adjustment means that those races may not be an option at all.

The DM(s), however, would be open to modifying the races in a manner that would take away the level adjustment and make them balanced character races, if they can be provided with a way to do such. Anyone here know how that would be possible without getting overly complicated or ridiculous?Apart from the PF method there's the Tome one (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Playing_Unusual_Races#Powerful_Races). Then there's monster classes. The ones in Savage Species were terrible, but there are alternatives (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557) (plenty of homebrew following those lines exists on GitP)

[Yora]

I think Level adjustment was the right idea by the designers, the only mistake they made is to massively overvalue the monster abilities and set the LA much to high for almost any creature ever published.

In the case of lizardfolk and gnolls, I think that they work really well with 2 racial HD, all their racial traits, and a Level Adjustment of +0.
A gnoll fighter 1 or a lizardfolk fighter 1 is really almost identical to a human fighter 3. I strongly recommend to set their LA to +0.

However, this approach rally works well only for low level creatures without any exotic abilities. When magic comes into play or the bonuses become really big, it becomes much harder to compare a monstrous character with a human character to estimate the LA. A centaur is about the middle ground, but when you already know you'll be playing a paladin without any multiclassing, you'd just have to compare a centaur paladin with a human paladin to get an accurate LA for that character. However, that LA could possibly be quite a way off when you make a centaur who is not a paladin.

[NNescio]

Wait, you're playing Pathfinder? PF doesn't use Level Adjustment.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monsters-as-pcs

A PF centaur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/centaur) is an lv3 character.


Apart from the PF method there's the Tome one (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Races_of_War_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Playing_Unusual_Races#Powerful_Races). Then there's monster classes. The ones in Savage Species were terrible, but there are alternatives (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557) (plenty of homebrew following those lines exists on GitP)

Wait... so a PF Hound Archon is a Level 4 character, even though he has Greater Teleport at will?

PF monster rules are... really stupid. CR is even more borked than LA or RHD.

Oh and they used the Oberoni Fallacy as an excuse. Sheesh.

[MeeposFire]

Wait... so a PF Hound Archon is a Level 4 character, even though he has Greater Teleport at will?

PF monster rules are... really stupid. CR is even more borked than LA or RHD.

Oh and they used the Oberoni Fallacy as an excuse. Sheesh.

Are you really surprised? These are the same people that think monks with improved natural attack is overpowered and that melee is not really allowed to have nice things.

[Telonius]

Really? I didn't know that. It seems like it would make sense for facing to apply, but then again with drown healing sense might as well not exist half the time.

I guess I need to go add something to that houserules you didn't know were houserules thread.

EDIT:

I actually never played 3.0, I didn't really start gaming until three years or so ago.

You might also be confusing it with the "Space/Reach" line of the monster entry. Many Large creatures have Space 10/Reach 10. Meaning, they occupy a ten-foot square, and threaten anything within ten feet of themselves. Most of the time, when things have more-or-less proportional bodies or have regular arms, the space is equal to the reach.

Centaurs (as well as horses and a lot of other quadrupeds) have Space10/Reach5. They take up a full ten-foot-square, but don't threaten things more than five feet away from them. Their dimensions aren't 10-by-5; they just can't hit things any farther away than their (basically medium human-sized) arms would reach.

[Marnath]

Alternatively, you can do this in-game by getting Level Drained, thereby losing your RHD, and then levelling back in a normal PC class. This is considered to be rather cheesy though, despite doing the same as the above with more work.

You can't do that. If you get your RHD drained you must take them back when you level up again.

[Flickerdart]

You can't do that. If you get your RHD drained you must take them back when you level up again.
Nope. No rules anywhere to the effect of "you must re-take drained levels".