Who has the best Hips?

[Forbiddenwar]

No, not that kind of hips.

looking over the d20 yields at least 1 class (ranger), and 2 prestige classes (Assassin, Shadowdancer) that have a Hide in Plain Sight ability. Oddly enough the abilities don't match.

Are there any other HiPS? If so, where are they? Do they also vary greatly in application, and which do you think is the "best"?

[kharmakazy]

I think the dark template grants HiPS when adjacent to a shadow... which you pretty much always are for +1 LA. I'll have to double check that.

[deuxhero]

Assassin and Shadowdancer have the same variant (needs shadows, which are common everywhere there is some light that isn't all present, and with the way 3.5 defines shadows, you are good with no light as well.

The ranger gets an inferior version, requiring a natural environment, which is nowhere near as common.


Of the 3, Shadow Dancer gets it with a dip, which is nice, though Assassin isn't a terrible class to actually use (at least for core only). As the above said, outside of core, the Dark template, or the item that gets you the Dark template, are the best.

[Pyro_Azer]

List of Stuff (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2546.0)

Hide in plain sight, as well as other useful abilities are indexed by source here.

[kharmakazy]

Yeah, Dark template from Tome of Magic.

[NNescio]

And you can get it from an item in the same book!

Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, Tome of Magic, costs 10 800 GP, and gives you the Dark creature template for up to 10 minutes per day.

You might be able to wing a continuous version for 22 000 GP.

[Forbiddenwar]

List of Stuff (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2546.0)

Hide in plain sight, as well as other useful abilities are indexed by source here.

Wow, that's a long list. So what do you think works the best? The magic item?

and can you hide in the shadow of the earth (aka night) even if there are torches around?

[Eldariel]

A useful one is Stalker of Kharesh's HiPS from Book of Exalted Deeds, which is similar to the Supernatural ones but Ex (one-quarter cover or concealment is enough in this case). Notably better than the Ranger-variant, for example.

[Forbiddenwar]

The magic item/template sounded great until I looked it up. Unless I've misread it, it's only a Hide while being Observed ability. You still need total cover or total concealment.

Seems the Shadowdancer's Hips are the "best" so far.

[kharmakazy]

The magic item/template sounded great until I looked it up. Unless I've misread it, it's only a Hide while being Observed ability. You still need total cover or total concealment.

Seems the Shadowdancer's Hips are the "best" so far.

Thats what HiPS does... lets you hide while being observed. (in this case so long as you are not standing in daylight or a daylight spell) The only reason you need cover is so you are not being observed. If you can hide while being observed you don't need cover.

[NNescio]

Also, if you have total cover or total concealment, you don't even need to make a hide check -- you're automatically considered hidden, since well, they can't see you.

They may still know where you are though, if you aren't subtle about it.


You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

Hide in Plain Sight allows you to hide even if you are observed, as long as certain conditions are met. Rangers can HiPS in natural terrain. Shadowdancers can do it near shadows. Creatures with the Dark template can HiPS as long as they aren't in natural daylight, the Daylight spell, or some similar effect.

[Eldariel]

Thats what HiPS does... lets you hide while being observed. (in this case so long as you are not standing in daylight or a daylight spell) The only reason you need cover is so you are not being observed. If you can hide while being observed you don't need cover.

Those are separate restrictions; many forms of HiPS (such as Ranger HiPS or Dark Template HiPS) only make you able to hide while observed. They do nothing about the need for Cover or Concealment. Rangers have Camouflage for Natural Terrains but otherwise they're outta luck in the Cover-department; Dark creatures aren't even that lucky.

[Forbiddenwar]

Also, if you have total cover or total concealment, you don't even need to make a hide check -- you're automatically considered hidden, since well, they can't see you.


Right. My mistake. You need cover or concealment in order to hide. You need to be unobserved in order to hide. Few Hips waive both.
the hide in shadows hips allows you to disappear within a shadow (of any size:smalleek:) while being observed. I haven't seen anything better, unless there is a magic item out there that grants the shadowdancer Hips

[kharmakazy]

Those are separate restrictions; many forms of HiPS (such as Ranger HiPS or Dark Template HiPS) only make you able to hide while observed. They do nothing about the need for Cover or Concealment. Rangers have Camouflage for Natural Terrains but otherwise they're outta luck in the Cover-department; Dark creatures aren't even that lucky.

Nope. That is a dubious interpretation at best.

[kharmakazy]

Right. My mistake. You need cover or concealment in order to hide. You need to be unobserved in order to hide. Few Hips waive both.

Nope. You only need cover so you are unobserved. If you can hide while being observed you don't need cover.

[Forbiddenwar]

Nope. You only need cover so you are unobserved. If you can hide while being observed you don't need cover.

So this is incorrect?


You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.
If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.


But if that is the case, this next part makes no sense.


If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.)

if they are not observing you, why would you need something to hide behind?

And yes, even with cover or concealment you can be observed.

[Eldariel]

Nope. That is a dubious interpretation at best.

Ranger HiPS:
"While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed."

Ranger Camouflage:
"A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment. "

Shadowdancer HiPS:
"A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. "


It's clear, deliberate (hell, it's why Ranger has a whole class feature called "Camouflage") and the reason this whole thread exists. Shadowdancer doesn't need cover or concealment; he just needs shadow within 10' to bypass this requirement (Supernatural HiPS rocking it asgård). Ranger needs cover, concealment or Camouflage to do it.

[kharmakazy]

So this is incorrect?


But if that is the case, this next part makes no sense.

if they are not observing you, why would you need something to hide behind?

Your quote does not match your supposition. Turning their attention from you does not mean they cannot see you, it just means they are distracted.


If someone is observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.
You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re
out of sight and then hide
The cover is clearly only needed so that you are no longer observed.

[Forbiddenwar]

The cover is clearly only needed so that you are no longer observed.

Your quote does not match your supposition. Out of sight means you are both unobservable and have cover or concealmeant, ergo you can hide.

[kharmakazy]

Your quote does not match your supposition. Out of sight means you are both unobservable and have cover or concealmeant, ergo you can hide.

Out of sightmeans nobody can see you. Name a situation when you are unobservable but DON'T have cover or concealment... If nobody can see you why would you need to hide?

Also, out of sight only means that you are currently unobserved, not unobservable.

The only way I can see anyone misinterpreting this way is if they are somehow unfamiliar with what the words "cover" and "conceal" mean.

[kharmakazy]

If someone is observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.
You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re
out of sight and then hide
You are using cover... so that you are out of site.

let me fix that for you



Can someone see you? You can't hide.
If you run behind a corner they can't see you.
If they can't see you, you can hide!
observed==can see you

[Eldariel]

The cover is clearly only needed so that you are no longer observed.

Cover and concealment are game terms. You aren't automatically out of sight with cover or concealment. They, however, do enable you to hide. You can't hide in front of somebody's eyes without smoke or poor visibility or an obstacle or some such that provides either cover or concealment. You also can't hide if they're looking at you.

What Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight does is enable you to hide when somebody is looking at you. That is, it obviates the need of Bluff-check to distract the observers. It does not enable you to e.g. hide in the middle of air while flying, for example (Shadowdancer's would if you had any shadow 10' from you).


So no, in short, if you're using a HiPS like Ranger's you still need some degree of cover or concealment to hide. It just means you can do it if you're e.g. engaged in combat and thus somebody is currently observing you. That's the extraordinary part; you can disappear right in front of somebody's eyes. They can literally stare at you the whole time you go into hiding and then you just vanish. However, unless there's the tree or whatever to hide in, you'll still fail.

[Feytalist]

So no, in short, if you're using a HiPS like Ranger's you still need some degree of cover or concealment to hide. It just means you can do it if you're e.g. engaged in combat and thus somebody is currently observing you. That's the extraordinary part; you can disappear right in front of somebody's eyes. They can literally stare at you the whole time you go into hiding and then you just vanish. However, unless there's the tree or whatever to hide in, you'll still fail.

Rangers: so awesome, they can hide in trees.

Yes, that's always been the difference between nature-y and shadow-y skulkers to me: one needs you to glance away and then be gone when you look back, and the one simply melts into the background, like a very un-creepy Predator.

[Forbiddenwar]

Name a situation when you are unobservable but DON'T have cover or concealment.


You an elf in a dungeon. You enter a room that is poorly lit, but with your low light vision you see a nasty creature walking towards you about 120 feet away. The room has a perfectly flat floor and is completely empty. The creature can't see you until get gets within 60 feet of you, due to the low light.

Can you hide? The creature isn't observing you, since it can't see you yet, but it will see you in the next round unless you do something.

But the room is perfectly flat. There is NO cover or Concealment. The only way you can hide is if your an assassin or a shadowdancer.

Alternatively, you are a giant in broad daylight and you see a party is out to kill you. They are observing you and are coming your way. You have 1/4 cover due to some scrubs that cover your feet up to your knees. Can you hide? You have cover, but I think it would be pretty silly if you even tried.

You are a wizard with the blur spell on, in the middle of a battle. There is a barbarian right in front of you about to kill you. You have concealment, can you hide? No.

[Psyren]

No, not dem hips.

Fixed :smalltongue:

@kharmakazy: I get what you're saying, but Forbiddenwar is correct by RAW (needing cover or concealment to hide, even if not being observed.) Yours is a reasonable houserule but still a houserule.