Is unarmed damage overpowered?

[Kefkafreak]

There are so many ways to boost unarmed damage that you can make a character with an average damage of almost 2000 on a full attack with just a little optimization (and you could probably exceed 10000 with cheese). That character could have 8 in every ability and still be overpowered.

How do you deal with this as a DM?

[Ceaon]

You can optimize most anything to absurd levels. Unarmed damage is certainly not one of the worst things in this. If all players optimize to such extremes, up the challenge. If only some or one player(s) optimize(s) to such extremes, ask them to tone it down (or ask the other players to optimize more, I guess). In any case, handle it out of game.

Really, if a player would come up to me with: I have a build that deals X-thousand damage on a full attack, I'd ask him to reconsider. Gently. With a baseball bat.

[Gardener]

1. What? What is this PC doing to have attacks like that? Unarmed damage is not more broken than any other form of melee damage, as far as I know.

2. Don't let them full-attack. Use enemies that stay mobile, fight from range, and slow down or immobilise. Get a reach advantage and keep them from getting close. Be invisible. If this guy is capable of punching out gods, then anyone who isn't a god should be looking for ways that don't allow for being punched.

3. Use non-AC defenses. Miss chances and immediate-action spells can dramatically lower the effectiveness of full attacks, no matter how high the attacker's bonus.

[kharmakazy]

I think it's probably harder to break unarmed damage than regular weapon damage... I mean you need a feat or a class dip just to DO real damage.

I guess you are asking if damage itself is overpowered. If your DM is letting you punch for 10k damage find a new DM because he clearly has gone mentally insane.:smallsmile:

[LordBlades]

There are so many ways to boost unarmed damage that you can make a character with an average damage of almost 2000 on a full attack with just a little optimization (and you could probably exceed 10000 with cheese). That character could have 8 in every ability and still be overpowered.

How do you deal with this as a DM?

That much damage isn't really a problem. There are literally dozens of ways to deal enough damage to transform melee attacks into a binary ability (if I hit you die). In a game where monsters have way below 1000 HP (and with rare exceptions way below 500), being able to deal 1000 damage per round is for most intents and purposes the same to dealing 50000 damage per round.

You can solve this thing in two ways:

-out of game; take the player aside and explain him you're not comfortable with the power level of his character and ask him to tone it down.
-in game; send opponents that are hard for him to do melee against: flying enemies, enemies with super high AC or stacked miss chances etc.

[Kefkafreak]

The thing is, he's not doing anything strange, it's just slight optimization, adding stuff like Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, Warshaper, Improved Natural Attack, equipment that improves unarmed damage, and size increases (Expansion, just wait until he learns of that Wu-Jen spell).

He's got 48d8 damage on every hit, which could be even more if he went Colossal. On top of that he's got 15' range (30' when Large) because of Warshaper and a feat.

[kharmakazy]

The thing is, he's not doing anything strange, it's just slight optimization, adding stuff like Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries, Warshaper, Improved Natural Attack, equipment that improves unarmed damage, and size increases (Expansion, just wait until he learns of that Wu-Jen spell).

He's got 48d8 damage on every hit, which could be even more if he went Colossal. On top of that he's got 15' range (30' when Large) because of Warshaper and a feat.

I'd love to see a breakdown of that 48d8 damage, if that's possible.

[Gardener]

Are you sure you're doing your size increases right? It's not just "double for every size increase" once you reach the end ot the table. Once you start multiplying dice, the logical progression is 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 6 -> 8 -> 12 -> 16 -> 24 -> 32 -> 48.

That means if their base damage is 2d8, they need 9 die size increases to reach 48d8. Of the ones I know from the top of my head you mentioned, he has 4, plus IotDM and the possibility of stacked items (and I suspect such items don't actually stack).

If it's causing problems, you may need to talk to the player out of game and ask him to tone it down a little.

[Kefkafreak]

2 from IotDM
1 from Fist of the Forest
1 from Warshaper
1/2 from Expansion
1 from Improved Natural Attack
1 from equipment

that's all I remember, I don't have the sheet here.

[Tancred]

The thing is, he's not doing anything strange, it's just slight optimization

48d8 damage is not slight optimisation. Perhaps if you post the specifics of his damage, The Playground can double check the stacking for you?

Edit: Ninja'd!

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Ya, most likely he's stacking things improperly, but we'd need a full build to tear it down. Even if it's legit just ask him to tone it down.

I've brought ECL 10 chargers that did fifty some damage per attack and ones that did 100 a whack to the table, both were fun and appropriate in the game they were in. I could have made one that did much more and self healed, but that would have broken those particular games.

If he doesn't see your way explain/threaten that to keep the game challenging/interesting you'll need to optimize on the same level meaning lot's of glass cannons playing rocket tag.

[Gardener]

Well, the other thing to do would be to set some part of your plot in a restaurant. Fist of the Forest's code of conduct requires you to not pay for food, so that could be fun.

Don't do it all the time, but it can be an interesting change of pace.

[Curmudgeon]

There are so many ways to boost unarmed damage that you can make a character with an average damage of almost 2000 on a full attack with just a little optimization ...

How do you deal with this as a DM?
The primary job of any DM is to know the D&D rules well enough to run a game; after all, the entire world, excepting PC actions, is controlled by you. So I'd point to the relevant rules, particularly regarding stacking, to show that you can't actually get that much damage legally. Size (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_size&alpha=S) increases stop at Colossal; that's the largest size in D&D, and there are no bonuses for being larger than that. It doesn't matter how many size increases you get, or how many different sources your got them from; past Colossal, there is no growth. You might get up to 16d6 unarmed damage, or an average of 56 points per successful hit.

Next, I'd point out that since two-weapon fighting doesn't work unarmed (excepting special class features), you won't get that many attacks.
Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You've only got one unarmed weapon: your (single) body. For instance, Magic Fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm) doesn't give your left kick a greater bonus than your head butt, because those are just different parts of a single weapon ─ just as the different edges of a sword are parts of a single weapon and aren't affected individually by Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm). So no TWF unarmed.

Then it gets into the nitty-gritty. Fist of the Forest provides no benefit if you're over the unarmed damage listed in the table; it specifies an increase only if your unarmed damage deals (exactly) the amount listed. A Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike feat both boost your damage as if you had some numbers of levels over your actual Monk level, so they overlap rather than stack.

Go through all the parts of the character sheet, check the rules, and find out the (much smaller) actual damage total. It's what any good DM should do.

[Kefkafreak]

48d8 damage is not slight optimisation. Perhaps if you post the specifics of his damage, The Playground can double check the stacking for you?

It was really easy for him to optimize, that's what I mean. That's why I think unarmed damage is overpowered, as I don't see how he could have done this with any other weapon. (I'm sure it's possible but he probably wouldn't have come up with it on his own).

[Killer Angel]

He's got 48d8 damage on every hit, which could be even more if he went Colossal.

Fot such result, you don't need optimization, but only munchkinism.


Really, if a player would come up to me with: I have a build that deals X-thousand damage on a full attack, I'd ask him to reconsider. Gently. With a baseball bat.

'til you deliver subdual damage, you'll be fine. :smalltongue:

[Gardener]

It was really easy for him to optimize, that's what I mean. That's why I think unarmed damage is overpowered, as I don't see how he could have done this with any other weapon. (I'm sure it's possible but he probably wouldn't have come up with it on his own).

Yeah, Unarmed gets the crazy damage dice, but two-hand weapons can get so many multipliers to a charge attack, especially with high Power Attack returns and Shock Trooper's Heedless Charge technique, that they can probably do more damage in a single round, and definitely with a lot more mobility. And a TWF build might not get as large dice as unarmed, but they get a whole pile of bonus dice and can get weapon properties (like Wounding) cheaply and easily. All methods of combat in 3.5 eventually turns into rocket tag - either they land their combo and you die, or they miss it and you get the chance to combo on them.

[Kefkafreak]

The primary job of any DM is to know the D&D rules well enough to run a game; after all, the entire world, excepting PC actions, is controlled by you. So I'd point to the relevant rules, particularly regarding stacking, to show that you can't actually get that much damage legally. Size (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_size&alpha=S) increases stop at Colossal; that's the largest size in D&D, and there are no bonuses for being larger than that. It doesn't matter how many size increases you get, or how many different sources your got them from; past Colossal, there is no growth. You might get up to 16d6 unarmed damage, or an average of 56 points per successful hit.

That's debatable. The Improved Natural Attack table shows damage over Colossal, and from what I've seen on the internet, most unarmed characters actually reach these numbers.


Next, I'd point out that since two-weapon fighting doesn't work unarmed (excepting special class features), you won't get that many attacks. You've only got one unarmed weapon: your (single) body. For instance, Magic Fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm) doesn't give your left kick a greater bonus than your head butt, because those are just different parts of a single weapon ─ just as the different edges of a sword are parts of a single weapon and aren't affected individually by Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm). So no TWF unarmed.

He's not doing that. 4 attacks +1 Haste +2 Flurry +1 Snap Kick.


Then it gets into the nitty-gritty. Fist of the Forest provides no benefit if you're over the unarmed damage listed in the table; it specifies an increase only if your unarmed damage deals (exactly) the amount listed. A Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike feat both boost your damage as if you had some numbers of levels over your actual Monk level, so they overlap rather than stack.

Go through all the parts of the character sheet, check the rules, and find out the (much smaller) actual damage total. It's what any good DM should do.


The way it's written, it's hard to tell what that class feature was intended to do, so I decided that it was a size increase.


Really, I don't think it's the player's fault (he didn't know he would reach these numbers) but I'll talk to him and see if he doesn't mind a nerf.

[Curmudgeon]

The Improved Natural Attack table shows damage over Colossal That's an "as if" increase; it's a singular exception to those actual size increases. Improved Natural Attack doesn't increase your size. The benefits for actual size increase stop at Colossal.

and from what I've seen on the internet, most unarmed characters actually reach these numbers.
According to what I've seen over the InterNet there are lots of opportunities for huge financial gain if you can help out some Nigerian folks with their international money transfer difficulties. InterNet claims are worth the paper they're electronically printed on :smallwink:, and that's about it. Let's stick to what the rules allow, shall we?

He's not doing that. 4 attacks +1 Haste +2 Flurry +1 Snap Kick.
So that's going to require 11 (minimum) - 16 (maximum) actual Monk levels (or a 3/4 BAB psychic class with Tashalatora) at level 20.

The way it's written, it's hard to tell what that class feature was intended to do, so I decided that it was a size increase.
If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table. Nothing about size there. If you're going to make up house rules you can arrive at any conclusion you want. That makes those house rules the problem, not the actual rules regarding unarmed damage.

[Kefkafreak]

That's an "as if" increase; it's a singular exception to those actual size increases. Improved Natural Attack doesn't increase your size. The benefits for actual size increase stop at Colossal.

Where does it say there can't be more "as if" increases? In any case, the maximum damage would be 16d8, which is still kind of overpowered. And if you have the Colossal damage while you're Medium size, it makes no sense that your damage doesn't increase when you actually increase your size.



Nothing about size there. If you're going to make up house rules you can arrive at any conclusion you want. That makes those house rules the problem, not the actual rules regarding unarmed damage.

Alright, I was wrong about this one. But what if you already have 2d10 base damage when you take FotF?

[Yuki Akuma]

48d8 damage is only 216, on average. I'm not sure how he's dealing 2000.

You're aware that if he's flurrying and two-weapon fighting he's unlikely to hit with every attack, right?

[Greensleeves]

Also, if you're actually playing with this at a table... How long does a combat round take for this player? Rolling all those dice for damage, then adding all the results? Must take ages.

I understand if you use some sort of virtual dice roller for this though, would speed things up tremendously.

[Kefkafreak]

Yes, we use a virtual one.

[Gardener]

Where does it say there can't be more "as if" increases? In any case, the maximum damage would be 16d8, which is still kind of overpowered. And if you have the Colossal damage while you're Medium size, it makes no sense that your damage doesn't increase when you actually increase your size.

The one "as if" increase comes from the wording of the effects themselves. They each let you deal damage as if you were one size larger than you actually are. If you are Medium and have two "as if" increases, both effects say "You now deal damage as if you were Large". Neither says you deal damage as if you were Huge, so you don't. They're redundant.

[Curmudgeon]

Alright, I was wrong about this one. But what if you already have 2d10 base damage when you take FotF?
Then you don't get any further unarmed damage benefits, just all the other good stuff:

full BAB
2 good saves
stacking fast movement
feral trance
uncanny dodge
scent
The limit on unarmed damage works the same way as for most other abilities. If you've already got more unarmed damage than on the Monk table when you enter that class you get no improvement from that class feature. If you've already got improved uncanny dodge (from 5 levels of Barbarian, say) then you get nothing from uncanny dodge at Fist of the Forest 2. If you've already got scent you're not getting any boost at FotF 3, either.

Most things only stack when they say so. BAB and saves stack, and you should be grateful that FotF fast movement is the stacking kind; the Monk fast movement doesn't stack with any other speed enhancements.

[Kefkafreak]

The one "as if" increase comes from the wording of the effects themselves. They each let you deal damage as if you were one size larger than you actually are. If you are Medium and have two "as if" increases, both effects say "You now deal damage as if you were Large". Neither says you deal damage as if you were Huge, so you don't. They're redundant.

Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries gives 2 dice increases. They can't be redundant.

[Heliomance]

Pretty sure the Draconomicon or the ELH has rules for sizes above Colossal.

[Gardener]

Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries gives 2 dice increases. They can't be redundant.

I don't have Draconomicon. Can we get the text of the relevant ability or abilities here? The obvious way around this is that the second size increase says "you deal damage as if you were two sizes larger", which will do precisely what it says. No stacking required.

[Curmudgeon]

Pretty sure the Draconomicon or the ELH has rules for sizes above Colossal.
I've checked the Epic Level Handbook and come up empty looking for rules like that. There are a couple of mentions of "to a maximum of Colossal", such as this item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofRelentlessMight) and even this major artifact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/artifacts.htm#golemArmor).

The Draconomicon does have rules for Colossal+, but only for advanced dragons. From page 99:
Colossal+ Size: Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the largest advanced dragons have a greater reach and deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons. These dragons are said to be of Colossal+ (“Colossal plus”) size.

[Kefkafreak]

I don't have Draconomicon. Can we get the text of the relevant ability or abilities here? The obvious way around this is that the second size increase says "you deal damage as if you were two sizes larger", which will do precisely what it says. No stacking required.

It's the same class feature, you simply gain it twice. I don't have my books here so I don't really know the exact text.

[tyckspoon]

It's the same class feature, you simply gain it twice. I don't have my books here so I don't really know the exact text.

It doesn't reference size categories at all, so that rather neatly sidesteps the whole stacking issue. Just says "your unarmed damage increases by one die step." Should combine with basically everything.

[Kefkafreak]

It doesn't reference size categories at all, so that rather neatly sidesteps the whole stacking issue. Just says "your unarmed damage increases by one die step." Should combine with basically everything.

But what does that do exactly? It can't be something like 2d10 -> 2d20, so I just made it a size increase. Does anyone know what that's supposed to do?

[tyckspoon]

But what does that do exactly? It can't be something like 2d10 -> 2d20, so I just made it a size increase. Does anyone know what that's supposed to do?

Making it operate as a size increase is probably the sensible way to do it (but not actually using the size terminology, to preserve stacking) since there are known progressions for that in the INA feat and the Weapon Size charts. RAW? I think it actually does just make you use the next biggest die size on a straight "ok, you were rolling d10? Now they're d12" style.. which has some fairly interesting results.

[Gice]

Here's the official text:


Increased Unarmed Damage (Ex): At 4th level, the damage dealt by an initiate’s unarmed attacks increases by one die step (such as from 1d3 to 1d4, or from d8 to 1d10). At 8th level, it increases another die step.

[Darrin]

2 from IotDM
1 from Fist of the Forest
1 from Warshaper
1/2 from Expansion
1 from Improved Natural Attack
1 from equipment


Hmmm... with a Monk 2/PsyWar 13/FotF 1/Warshaper 1, I think I can get:

2d6 (base damage, Monk 15)
2d8 (Superior Unarmed Strike)
2d10 (Monk's Belt, arguing that it stacks with SUS)
6d8 (Augmented Expansion)
8d8 (INA)
12d8 (FotF 1)
16d8 (Warshaper)
24d8 (Totem Avatar soulmeld + Open Lesser Chakra)

I'm not sure how to fit Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries in there without losing most of those Tashalatora PsyWar levels (and Greater Flurry), but two more size increases gets you 24d8 -> 32d8 -> 48d8. IotDM doesn't advance unarmed damage or any other monk features, so if you're only using it for two weapon size increases then Fist of the Forest 3 is a much better deal.

As far as how would I deal with that as a DM? Target him with slow/nausea effects, difficult terrain, blinding or fog effects that prevent him from full-attacking or taking out more than one mook per round. If he's become so powerful that his heroic deeds become well-known, then a few orders of monks will pop up and challenge him to single combat to "test his fu" or at least give him more appropriate opponents.

If it got too out of hand and the rest of the party was getting frustrated/bored, I'd probably drag him into a trans-dimensional Mortal-Kombat-style tournement where the other competitors (NPCs temporarily handled by the other players) are cheating and have +6000ish temp HP, 13+ attacks, and Wounding/Torturous unarmed strikes/claws. Or curse all members of his family to be hunted down by swarms of incorporeal phrenic voidmind cranium rats. Or waves of explosive zombies + death throes, fang golems, spore bats + fatal flame. Or hide a couple 1d2 Crusaders under his pillow. Anything my players can break, I can break harder, and I can ignore WBL, add a couple fistloads of templates, and toss on some epic-level meddling wizard shenanigans.

[Heatwizard]

What's so horrendous about just letting him do it? These are the levels in which damage stops being that important anyway.

[Big Fau]

There are so many ways to boost unarmed damage that you can make a character with an average damage of almost 2000 on a full attack with just a little optimization (and you could probably exceed 10000 with cheese). That character could have 8 in every ability and still be overpowered.

How do you deal with this as a DM?

I would ignore it. HP Damage is easy to optimize (the current record needed a new annotation because Scientific Notation couldn't express it properly).


If damage is a problem for your campaign, put more enemies on the table.


Edit: Reading the thread further, it sounds like your player has read the Monk Handbook over at BG (the one written by Dman, not the Giacomo one). And 42d8 averages out to 189 damage, not the 1,000 you keep claiming.

[Kefkafreak]

That's just the damage per hit, and he has 8 hits on a full action.

[Big Fau]

That's just the damage per hit, and he has 8 hits on a full action.

Ok, so it still sounds like you are just throwing singular monsters at him.


Try an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. The Yellow Veil will prove to be a challenge for him.

[druid91]

1. What? What is this PC doing to have attacks like that? Unarmed damage is not more broken than any other form of melee damage, as far as I know.

2. Don't let them full-attack. Use enemies that stay mobile, fight from range, and slow down or immobilise. Get a reach advantage and keep them from getting close. Be invisible. If this guy is capable of punching out gods, then anyone who isn't a god should be looking for ways that don't allow for being punched.

3. Use non-AC defenses. Miss chances and immediate-action spells can dramatically lower the effectiveness of full attacks, no matter how high the attacker's bonus.

Well with some homebrew, dragon magazine, The [awesome] feat houserule, and gestalt, you can get such monstrosities as Isaac Blackwater.

Isaac Blackwater

Male NE Lesser Tiefling

I just realized this build is SUPER MAD.

Str: 18 +2 Level Up +6 Cthulhu Touched = 26
Dex: 16 +2 Tiefling = 18
Con: 18 +6 Cthulhu Touched = 24
Int: 8 +2 Tiefling = 10
Wis: 17 +1 Level Up = 18
Cha: 7 -2 Tiefling = 5

Lion-Totem Barbarian 1/Chaos Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 10/War Shaper 1//Xenotheurgist 6/Eerie Wanderer 7

Chaos Monk 1/XenoTheurgist 1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Unearthly Will, Iron Will
Psychic Warrior 1/XenoTheurgist 2: Talashtora, Quicken Power
Chaos Monk 2/XenoTheurgist 3: Monastic Training, Overchannel
Lion-Totem Barbarian 1/Xenotheurgist 4: Practiced Manifestor (Psywar)
Psychic Warrior 2/Xenotheurgist 5: Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), Superior Unarmed Strike
Psychic Warrior 3/Xenotheurgist 6: Martial Study (Some shadow hand maneuver you like)
Psychic Warrior 4/Eerie Wanderer 1: Psicrystal Affinity
Psychic Warrior 5/Eerie Wanderer 2: Snap Kick, Link Power
Psychic Warrior 6/Eerie Wanderer 3: Psionic Meditation
Psychic Warrior 7/Eerie Wanderer 4: Psicrystal Containment
Psychic Warrior 8/Eerie Wanderer 5: Martial Stance (Asssassin Stance), Craven
Psychic Warrior 9/Eerie Wanderer 6: Psionic Talent
War Shaper 1/Eerie Wanderer 7: Psionic Talent
Psychic Warrior 10/Eerie Wanderer 8: Expanded Knowledge


Ripping a page right out of Jericho's handbook, here.

You can refluff your psicrystal to be a little Cthulhulian abomination that scuttles around your feet, over your shoulders, and through your pockets.

Feats:
Hidden Talent
Psionic Talent
Psionic Talent
Psionic Talent
Psionic Talent
Psionic Talent


Psionic Powers:
1: Inertial Armor
1: Vigor
1: Expansion
1: Defensive precognition
2: Animal Afffinity
2: Feat Leech
3: Vampiric Blade
3: Greater Concealing Amorpha
3: Dimension Slide
4: Psionic Freedom of Movement
4: Metamorphosis

Gear:
Fanged Ring
Periapt of Wisdom +2
+1 Shadow Hand Necklace of Natural attacks
Armbands of Might
Everything else up to you.




You can keep expansion up for about two hours at a time and Inertial Armor half the day. I tried to make this so you could spend the first round doing a super-buffing routine. You'll have to Feat-Leech all five Psionic Talents off of your Psicrystal for 35 free power points to buff with. Then should Vigor, Animal Affinity, and Vampiric Blade (Important). You can throw in Greater Concealing Amorpha, Psionic Freedom of Movement, or Strength of my Enemy depending on the fight.

So your first round looks like this:
Swift: Quickened Feat Leech Linked with Vampiric Blade
Move: Regain Psionic Focus
Standard: Animal Affinity linked with Vigor

Then you can lay in to them. If you want, just do the Feat Leech/Vampiric Blade and charge in with a Pounce.

If you want to, I also included Metamorphosis. You can use that to turn your psicrystal in to a monster to attack people, or you could turn in to some horrible tentacle beast yourself. You can sick your psicrystal on them as a swift action with Quickened Metamorphosis. Then you can charge.

Also, you have huge Unarmed base damage, which means Vampiric Blade will heal you for tons. It also makes you a fantastic grappler. You'll wreck their lives.

Like this, Isaac does 6d8 (27 average just from dice) damage per punch unbuffed. With an augmented Expansion, you can up that to 12d8. Expansion can be an actual size increase, or you could just call it a Super Saiyan mode. Rawr. Also, you can Flurry of Blows to gain an aditional 1d4+1 attacks per round. And Snap Kick for one more. So that's about 6-7 attacks per round. But your attack bonus isn't the best, so a few will miss. However, you can offset this by grappling, like I mentioned. Isaac should pick targets whose grapple modifiers he can beat, he has a grapple mod of +33 when buffed. So just tackle them, stradle them, and beat them in to the dirt. And if you use the Con Drain on touch (And you should) that's an extra 1 HP per two character levels of damage per attack that they can't heal. It hurts them MORE the stronger they are.

You don't even have to actually grapple them! You just make a melee touch attack with your unarmed strike, roll a grapple check and, if you win, you deal automatic Unarmed Damage. Then you just opt not to enter their square and you can use your next attack to do the same thing. It's like having wraithstrike

[raxies94]

Wait a minute. I'm spotting a problem right now. Two of the increases are from Warshaper and Improved Natural Attack? That's not right. Natural attacks are not the same thing as unarmed attacks. Improved Natural Attack would only affect something like claw, bite, or slam. If he doesn't have those, it won't affect anything. Also, the warshaper abilities only work if he is in some kind of alternate form, such as polymorphed, wild shaped, etc.

So those shouldn't stack with the rest of his unarmed damage stuff.

[JKTrickster]

I would ignore it. HP Damage is easy to optimize (the current record needed a new annotation because Scientific Notation couldn't express it properly).


Oh really? Sorry but don't think I heard of this one. Do you know where I can find it?

[Yuki Akuma]

Wait a minute. I'm spotting a problem right now. Two of the increases are from Warshaper and Improved Natural Attack? That's not right. Natural attacks are not the same thing as unarmed attacks. Improved Natural Attack would only affect something like claw, bite, or slam. If he doesn't have those, it won't affect anything. Also, the warshaper abilities only work if he is in some kind of alternate form, such as polymorphed, wild shaped, etc.

So those shouldn't stack with the rest of his unarmed damage stuff.

Monks treat unarmed attacks as natural attacks and manufactured weapons. Monks can take Improved Natural Attack and are meant to be able to.

[Big Fau]

Oh really? Sorry but don't think I heard of this one. Do you know where I can find it?

Chuck, the Ruby Knight Windicator (prior to errata). Post errata, the build got devoured by the Gleemax updates.

[Starbuck_II]

Can he use Pathfinder?
Vital Strike would increase his damage by x2, x3, or x4 but limits him to 1 attack (standard action).
So 48d8 becomes 96d8, 144d8, or 192d8.

[Darrin]

Wait a minute. I'm spotting a problem right now. Two of the increases are from Warshaper and Improved Natural Attack? That's not right. Natural attacks are not the same thing as unarmed attacks.


A monk's unarmed strike (and class abilities that grant a similar ability, such as Fist of the Forest, Battle Dancer, Unarmed Swordsage, etc.) *does* explicitly count as both a natural weapon and manufactured weapon. So INA does work by RAW for monks. I believe the D&D FAQ (which isn't RAW, thank gawd) supports this in one of its more lucid moments.

A non-monk unarmed strike is considerably more murky... it counts as a natural weapon for spells, certain magic items (i.e., Fanged Ring) and possibly for some feats, but is otherwise treated like a manufactured weapon. From a practical standpoint, it prevents a great deal of headaches to treat non-monk unarmed strikes the same way as a monk's unarmed strikes. There is no meaningful benefit to the game to mechanically treat them as different types of unarmed attacks. It appears that some designers (I'm looking at you, Mr. Fanged Ring) even treat them that way (or at the very least are considerably confused about the mechanics... which means the rest of us are in pretty good company).

The two most questionable areas rules-wise are probably whether Superior Unarmed Strike stacks with Monk's Belt (and last I checked, there is no reasonable conclusion to that argument), and whether Fist of the Forest can increase unarmed damage for an unarmed strike that is *not* currently 1d8 or 1d10. By a very strict reading for RAW, it doesn't increase your damage if your unarmed strike already does more damage than what FotF specifies.

[ericgrau]

Agreed that everything can be cheesed out to ludicrous extremes. Disagreed that you should allow ludicrous extremes. Just ban a small handful of the worst offenders and it won't get so bad. Also disagreed that making damage or melee attacks irrelevant is the answer. Some classes are based around those as are most standard monsters. Congrats, you just decided to make entire classes and legions of standard monsters irrelevant, without telling your players they shouldn't bother playing one of those classes. Oh boy, they're in for a world of fun. Or maybe you'll throw them a bone and let damage be relevant in a handful of encounters, that fixes it right? They'll curbstomp those encounters with trivial ease, then sit on their hands the rest of the time.

[tyckspoon]

Oh really? Sorry but don't think I heard of this one. Do you know where I can find it?

Are you looking for the builds that required the different annotation system, or just the system itself? For builds, look up Hulking Hurlers; I believe they hold the current potential damage record (in real worlds, they have the significant problem of having to somehow get ahold of a black hole to hurl.) The notation is Knuth's up-arrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%27s_up-arrow_notation), which is basically a shorthand way of recording exponential operations. If you're not a mathy person, you can pretty safely just take it as a(up arrow)(up arrow)b means essentially 'a number too big to think about.'

[Yuki Akuma]

Are you looking for the builds that required the different annotation system, or just the system itself? For builds, look up Hulking Hurlers; I believe they hold the current potential damage record (in real worlds, they have the significant problem of having to somehow get ahold of a black hole to hurl.) The notation is Knuth's up-arrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%27s_up-arrow_notation), which is basically a shorthand way of recording exponential operations. If you're not a mathy person, you can pretty safely just take it as a(up arrow)(up arrow)b means essentially 'a number too big to think about.'

Hulking Hurlers can roll more dice than there are atoms in the universe.

[raxies94]

A monk's unarmed strike (and class abilities that grant a similar ability, such as Fist of the Forest, Battle Dancer, Unarmed Swordsage, etc.) *does* explicitly count as both a natural weapon and manufactured weapon. So INA does work by RAW for monks. I believe the D&D FAQ (which isn't RAW, thank gawd) supports this in one of its more lucid moments.

A non-monk unarmed strike is considerably more murky... it counts as a natural weapon for spells, certain magic items (i.e., Fanged Ring) and possibly for some feats, but is otherwise treated like a manufactured weapon. From a practical standpoint, it prevents a great deal of headaches to treat non-monk unarmed strikes the same way as a monk's unarmed strikes. There is no meaningful benefit to the game to mechanically treat them as different types of unarmed attacks. It appears that some designers (I'm looking at you, Mr. Fanged Ring) even treat them that way (or at the very least are considerably confused about the mechanics... which means the rest of us are in pretty good company).

The two most questionable areas rules-wise are probably whether Superior Unarmed Strike stacks with Monk's Belt (and last I checked, there is no reasonable conclusion to that argument), and whether Fist of the Forest can increase unarmed damage for an unarmed strike that is *not* currently 1d8 or 1d10. By a very strict reading for RAW, it doesn't increase your damage if your unarmed strike already does more damage than what FotF specifies.

Ah I see. My bad then. These things get rather confusing. I believe my point about warshaper still stands though.

[Ursus the Grim]

Maybe I'm missing something, but is anything in that build giving him pounce? Once he gets close to something, have them take a five-foot-step back from him. Sure, they may provoke AoO, but that simple free action is going to cut his damage per round down to 1/8.

Also, anything with an aura or spikes. A couple demons (Barbed) and the Magmin come to mind. If the problem is that he hits eight times, deal some backlash with each hit. Against a hamatula, for instance, he's going to take 56-112 damage per round with full attack.

You could always play the regeneration/DR game.

Finally, most unarmed builds don't have great attack bonuses. Throw something with good AC against him and watch his damage go way down.

[Darrin]

I believe my point about warshaper still stands though.

I assumed the Warshaper was due to PsyWar 13 grabbing metamorphosis via Expanded Knowledge, but it could also come from the Natural World mantle (and there is even a PsyWar ACF online that can pick up a mantle). Otherwise you can probably qualify with Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 10, which can shapechange into a dragon. There are also maybe a dozen other easy ways to get an alternate form, including the old Divine Minion trick or a race like Hengeyokai.


Maybe I'm missing something, but is anything in that build giving him pounce?

Shape Soulmeld: Sphynx Claws + Open Least Chakra (hands) would work. If he knows about the Totem Avatar/Shoulder Bind, then he probably knows about that one.

[Keld Denar]

A monk's unarmed strike (and class abilities that grant a similar ability, such as Fist of the Forest, Battle Dancer, Unarmed Swordsage, etc.) *does* explicitly count as both a natural weapon and manufactured weapon. So INA does work by RAW for monks. I believe the D&D FAQ (which isn't RAW, thank gawd) supports this in one of its more lucid moments.

A non-monk unarmed strike is considerably more murky... it counts as a natural weapon for spells, certain magic items (i.e., Fanged Ring) and possibly for some feats, but is otherwise treated like a manufactured weapon. From a practical standpoint, it prevents a great deal of headaches to treat non-monk unarmed strikes the same way as a monk's unarmed strikes. There is no meaningful benefit to the game to mechanically treat them as different types of unarmed attacks. It appears that some designers (I'm looking at you, Mr. Fanged Ring) even treat them that way (or at the very least are considerably confused about the mechanics... which means the rest of us are in pretty good company).

An Unarmed Strike is 98% a natural weapon for a non-monk. The only things about it that ARN'T treated as a natural weapon are the fact that you can make iterative attacks with it, and you aren't considered armed with it (without Imp UAS). That's it. If you are a Commoner1 and you punch your neighbor in the head, thats an attack with a natural weapon (that follows the iterative attacks rules and would provoke an AoO if your neighbor was armed). Thats it. For a monk, its exactly the same, except that feats, spells, and abilities that affect manufactured weapons ALSO can affect a monk's UAS, which is the only difference between a monk and a non-monk.

Its not that complicated. An UAS is a natural weapon except when its not.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Chuck, the Ruby Knight Windicator (prior to errata). Post errata, the build got devoured by the Gleemax updates.

Wasn't the biggest damage dealer was a Hurling Hurler which could dealt something like 10^86 d6?

[sonofzeal]

Wasn't the biggest damage dealer was a Hurling Hurler which could dealt something like 10^86 d6?
No.

The current record is so high, you can't even use scientific notation to express it adequately. You have to use Knuth's Up-Arrow notation.

[Dusk Eclipse]

No.

The current record is so high, you can't even use scientific notation to express it adequately. You have to use Knuth's Up-Arrow notation.

Knuths up arrow notation?.... To wikipedia/google!!!

[kardar233]

How and what?

[Ursus the Grim]

Shape Soulmeld: Sphynx Claws + Open Least Chakra (hands) would work. If he knows about the Totem Avatar/Shoulder Bind, then he probably knows about that one.

Ah, thanks. I'm not terribly familiar with the whole totemist thing. Kinda scares me because I'm not used to it, actually, creating a vicious cycle.

It seems like this guy just went ahead and followed a high-optimization build. Its not the worst that could happen given what else can happen when you go looking for builds.

[sonofzeal]

Record: (2.5*10^36530)^^73600

Where 5^^4 = (((5^5)^5)^5



Just for point of comparison...

5^^1 = 5
5^^2 = 3.125 x 10^3
5^^3 = 2.98 × 10^17
5^^4 = 2.35 × 10^87

You can see how "^^" operations get extremely big, extremely quickly. I believe it's supra-factorial in order.

[Dusk Eclipse]

:smile::eek::cool::amused:

[sonofzeal]

:smile::eek::cool::amused:
....yeah, pretty much. It's not just "big", it's...

Okay, I have a degree in math. I've spent far too much of my life thinking about infinites and some of the more abstract properties of numbers.

And (2.5*10^36530)^^73600? That scares me. Numbers that big should not exist.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you could write one digit on every atom in the universe, you would not have enough room to write that number out.

Let alone have that many atoms.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Is that a google? or that absurdly big number that still isn't the biggest number devised/invented/discovered by man?

[havocfett]

Record: (2.5*10^36530)^^73600

Where 5^^4 = (((5^5)^5)^5



Just for point of comparison...

5^^1 = 5
5^^2 = 3.125 x 10^3
5^^3 = 2.98 × 10^17
5^^4 = 2.35 × 10^87

You can see how "^^" operations get extremely big, extremely quickly. I believe it's supra-factorial in order.

Where's the build?

[Yuki Akuma]

Is that a google? or that absurdly big number that still isn't the biggest number devised/invented/discovered by man?

That's far larger than a googol.

I could type out a googol. Pretty easily, really. It's only a million and one digits.

[Dusk Eclipse]

ok now I am not amused, how the hell did they arrived to that number?

[tonberrian]

That's far larger than a googol.

I could type out a googol. Pretty easily, really. It's only a million and one digits.

A googol is a one with a hundred zeros following it, 10100. And even the magnitude of the damage of the Hulking Hurler pales in comparison to Graham's Number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number).

[Keld Denar]

It's one of Lord of Procrastination's Dirty Tricks. Somehow he sets up a harmonic feedback loop with Affinity Field, Shared Pain, and Symbiots with a damper (Biofeedback) that cycles a rediculous amount of non-infinite times, increasing exponentially with each iteration. Its the largest non-infinite damage ever recorded for D&D (infinite damage would be like the 1d2 crusader). I think he had to solve a system of diferential equasions to arrive at the formula for computing that number.

Blah, reminds me of my old vibrations class.

[Yuki Akuma]

A google is a one with a hundred zeros following it, 10100. And even the magnitude of the damage of the Hulking Hurler pales in comparison to Graham's Number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham%27s_number).

Googol.

I thought it was a million! Well, that's even easier to write out, then.

[MeeposFire]

It's one of Lord of Procrastination's Dirty Tricks. Somehow he sets up a harmonic feedback loop with Affinity Field, Shared Pain, and Symbiots with a damper (Biofeedback) that cycles a rediculous amount of non-infinite times. Its the largest non-infinite damage ever recorded for D&D (infinite damage would be like the 1d2 crusader).

Oh lord a LoP trick. Those things always hurt my head reading them.

[sonofzeal]

ok now I am not amused, how the hell did they arrived to that number?
Here you go (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868594/World_Record_Damage:_Multiple_dirty_tricks_for_ins ane_synergy!&post_num=58#338279018).

A Googol isn't even in the same ballpark. It's not even playing the same game.

Graham's Number is in the same game though, and I hesitate to say off the top of my head which is actually bigger. Suffice it to say that we're talking about numbers so large I'm not even sure that computation tools exist to answer that question definitively.

My money's on Graham's Number, for the record, but that's just intuition.

[Shpadoinkle]

Googol.

I thought it was a million! Well, that's even easier to write out, then.

You may have been thinking of a googolplex, which is a one followed by a googol of zeroes.

[sonofzeal]

You may have been thinking of a googolplex, which is a one followed by a googol of zeroes.
...and which is still not in the same ballpark as either the damage record or Graham's Number.


Yes, they're just that big. :smallcool:

[Teron]

Maybe I'm missing something, but is anything in that build giving him pounce? Once he gets close to something, have them take a five-foot-step back from him. Sure, they may provoke AoO, but that simple free action is going to cut his damage per round down to 1/8.
Five foot steps don't provoke AoOs, but they are, as you said, a free action - nothing prevents the PC from taking one himself and full attacking.

[Gardener]

It's one of Lord of Procrastination's Dirty Tricks. Somehow he sets up a harmonic feedback loop with Affinity Field, Shared Pain, and Symbiots with a damper (Biofeedback) that cycles a rediculous amount of non-infinite times, increasing exponentially with each iteration. Its the largest non-infinite damage ever recorded for D&D (infinite damage would be like the 1d2 crusader). I think he had to solve a system of diferential equasions to arrive at the formula for computing that number.

Blah, reminds me of my old vibrations class.

If you're talking about the trick I think you're talking about, the damage figure quoted in that thread was a loose lower bound. They had to make a whole bunch of simplifying assumptions to make the problem solvable in a remotely reasonable amount of time. And it wasn't actually a LoP trick - psy4lme or whatever his name was combined three different Dirty Tricks by using Body Outside Body, symbionts, Blood of the Martyr and Affinity Field, with a single clone having Mental Resistance, reducing the damage by 1 each time it cycled through the several thousand creatures in the field.

Also, this damage record takes 24 hours to set up and can only be dealt to yourself, though anyone within 30 feet will also be reduced to pulp.

[Heliomance]

Oh really? Sorry but don't think I heard of this one. Do you know where I can find it?


Chuck, the Ruby Knight Windicator (prior to errata). Post errata, the build got devoured by the Gleemax updates.

Actually, no, it wasn't chuck.

World Record Damage: Multiple Dirty Tricks for Insane Synergy. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868594/World_Record_Damage:_Multiple_dirty_tricks_for_ins ane_synergy!)

NB: I have two years of a maths degree under my belt, and I can't follow the maths that build uses.

[Ursus the Grim]

Five foot steps don't provoke AoOs, but they are, as you said, a free action - nothing prevents the PC from taking one himself and full attacking.

Derp. Right you are. That's one of the common things I continue to forget, you'd think I'd remember that by now.

[Taelas]

...and which is still not in the same ballpark as either the damage record or Graham's Number.


Yes, they're just that big. :smallcool:

Yet people still throw around terms like 'infinite' and 'nigh-infinite' with abandon...

Higher math leaves me stunned, most of the time. Doesn't even have to be that high...

[sonofzeal]

Yet people still throw around terms like 'infinite' and 'nigh-infinite' with abandon...

Higher math leaves me stunned, most of the time. Doesn't even have to be that high...
Thing is, "infinite" and "arbitrarily large" are far easier to work with. They're natural analogues for "zero" and "infinitessimal", which are topics many of us explore fairly rigorously in high school.

But numbers that big, we lack tools for. I have a degree in math, and I couldn't tell you with any degree of certainty whether the damage limit is greater or less than Graham's Number. I wouldn't even know where to start in figuring it out.



NB: I have two years of a maths degree under my belt, and I can't follow the maths that build uses.
I share your pain. I share your pain.

[Gardener]

Actually, no, it wasn't chuck.

World Record Damage: Multiple Dirty Tricks for Insane Synergy. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868594/World_Record_Damage:_Multiple_dirty_tricks_for_ins ane_synergy!)

NB: I have two years of a maths degree under my belt, and I can't follow the maths that build uses.

That thread is largely responsible for me giving up on applied maths and sticking to pure. I have four and a half years of maths study behind me, and I still can't follow it either.

[OracleofWuffing]

But numbers that big, we lack tools for. I have a degree in math, and I couldn't tell you with any degree of certainty whether the damage limit is greater or less than Graham's Number. I wouldn't even know where to start in figuring it out.
Well, on the plus side, you do have the tools to tell us if they are equal or not equal to each other.

Ha ha! "Plus" side! Math pun!

[MeeposFire]

That thread is largely responsible for me giving up on applied maths and sticking to pure. I have four and a half years of maths study behind me, and I still can't follow it either.

That makes me feel better since I was looking and going WHAT ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT!:smallconfused:

[Gardener]

That makes me feel better since I was looking and going WHAT ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT!:smallconfused:

Well, the Fate Links and the Affinity Field are making the damage bounce around between the copies and all their symbiotes (each clone has ~4000 symbiotes, if I'm reading them right), only the total damage is dropping by 3 every time it cycles. He smacks himself for over 1000 damage with a metamagicked Reciprocal Gyre while buffed to high heaven, and the damage spreads and re-propagates again and again, each cycle 3 points less than the last but being dealt to several thousand creatures. The main reason this doesn't turn out to be infinite damage is th Then the guy in the midle casts Blood of the Martyr, sending another 20 damage and 20 healing through the system. The healing is infinite, and the damage large but finite, thanks to Mental Resistance on one clone. It does get amplified into a hell of a lot of damage in the process, though. So, inside the duration of one Persistent Delay Death, the character deals that truly insane damage to himself.

[MeeposFire]

Well, the Fate Links and the Affinity Field are making the damage bounce around between the copies and all their symbiotes (each clone has ~4000 symbiotes, if I'm reading them right), only the total damage is dropping by 3 every time it cycles. He smacks himself for over 1000 damage with a metamagicked Reciprocal Gyre while buffed to high heaven, and the damage spreads and re-propagates again and again, each cycle 3 points less than the last but being dealt to several thousand creatures. The main reason this doesn't turn out to be infinite damage is th Then the guy in the midle casts Blood of the Martyr, sending another 20 damage and 20 healing through the system. The healing is infinite, and the damage large but finite, thanks to Mental Resistance on one clone. It does get amplified into a hell of a lot of damage in the process, though. So, inside the duration of one Persistent Delay Death, the character deals that truly insane damage to himself.

I was more confused about the math but I do like your way of describing it as reading the thread was a little headache inducing so thank you:smallcool:.

[term1nally s1ck]

Disregarding the uber damage loop, which is *awesome*

Initiate boosts your unarmed damage by a size category.

Is there an easy way to make your unarmed damage a d12 without using initiate? If so you can start hitting for d100s, which is AWESOME.

[Divide by Zero]

Graham's Number is in the same game though, and I hesitate to say off the top of my head which is actually bigger. Suffice it to say that we're talking about numbers so large I'm not even sure that computation tools exist to answer that question definitively.

My money's on Graham's Number, for the record, but that's just intuition.

Definitely Graham's Number. Increasing the number of arrows causes the number to increase far more rapidly than increasing the terms - while I may be off on this, I would hazard a guess that even the first term in the series, 3^^^^3, is larger than the damage record, and the second is definitely larger.

[term1nally s1ck]

Yeah, it's Graham's number by an absurd distance. 3^^(3^27) is a LOT, and that's not even g1, nor even 3^^^3

[sonofzeal]

Definitely Graham's Number. Increasing the number of arrows causes the number to increase far more rapidly than increasing the terms - while I may be off on this, I would hazard a guess that even the first term in the series, 3^^^^3, is larger than the damage record, and the second is definitely larger.
Hmmm.....

...actually, maybe. I think I was misinterpreting the up-arrow notation. I was treating 3^^3 as (3^3)^3, when it should have been 3^(3^3), which is obviously far larger. If so, then the escalating power of higher-order Knuth operations kicks in much faster. So yeah, maybe.

But the number here is still mind-shatteringly huge. I still don't feel like I have the tools to be able to talk about it with any degree of accuracy.

[Show]

... thread derail win.

[Shpadoinkle]

Disregarding the uber damage loop, which is *awesome*

Initiate boosts your unarmed damage by a size category.

Is there an easy way to make your unarmed damage a d12 without using initiate? If so you can start hitting for d100s, which is AWESOME.

The next step up from a d12 is 2d8, not a d100

[MeeposFire]

The next step up from a d12 is 2d8, not a d100

It is not a size change in the traditional sense, it is actually a die size change that the class feature grants (so a d10 goes to a d12).

[Shpadoinkle]

It is not a size change in the traditional sense, it is actually a die size change that the class feature grants (so a d10 goes to a d12).

Right. And the next step up from a d12 is 2d8.

[term1nally s1ck]

Actually, it's 3d6, with the d10 going to 2d8.

However, Initiate isn't a damage size increase, it SPECIFICALLY increases the dice used by a die size, from d8 to d10, and d10 to d12.

Since you can only have d8s normally with unarmed, you only ever hit d12. If you can get d12s otherwise, we can hit for d100s. :smallbiggrin:

[137beth]

Yes, the ELH has rules for dragons (only) increasing to colossal+:
"Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the oldest epic dragons deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons"
(from SRD). Nothing about how non-dragons can increase their size beyond colossal. Colossal+ is not a "real" size category, it is just an increase to epic dragon's attacks. Unless your player is an epic-level dragon, he cannot increase his size beyond colossal.

[EarFall]

Actually, it's 3d6, with the d10 going to 2d8.

However, Initiate isn't a damage size increase, it SPECIFICALLY increases the dice used by a die size, from d8 to d10, and d10 to d12.

Since you can only have d8s normally with unarmed, you only ever hit d12. If you can get d12s otherwise, we can hit for d100s. :smallbiggrin:

I'd make them buy a d30... I have several. Heh.

[prufock]

Actually, it's 3d6, with the d10 going to 2d8.

However, Initiate isn't a damage size increase, it SPECIFICALLY increases the dice used by a die size, from d8 to d10, and d10 to d12.

Since you can only have d8s normally with unarmed, you only ever hit d12. If you can get d12s otherwise, we can hit for d100s. :smallbiggrin:

What rule states that the next "die size" up from d12 is d100? Why doesn't it go to d14-d16-d18-d20 (all other die size increases add 2 sides), or at least d20-d30?

[tonberrian]

What rule states that the next "die size" up from d12 is d100? Why doesn't it go to d14-d16-d18-d20 (all other die size increases add 2 sides), or at least d20-d30?

Because the dice you need to play 3.5 are d2, d3, d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, and d100 (note that the difference between d3 and d4 is one more side, not two).

[term1nally s1ck]

PHB, it tells you you use certain dice. D12 -> d20 -> d100. :smallbiggrin:

[crazyhedgewizrd]

Yes, the ELH has rules for dragons (only) increasing to colossal+:
"Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the oldest epic dragons deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons"
(from SRD). Nothing about how non-dragons can increase their size beyond colossal. Colossal+ is not a "real" size category, it is just an increase to epic dragon's attacks. Unless your player is an epic-level dragon, he cannot increase his size beyond colossal.

If you want to inculde sizes above colossal, you can take the size increases from dragon mech, since they have sizes from colossal to colossal 5.

[Yuki Akuma]

PHB, it tells you you use certain dice. D12 -> d20 -> d100. :smallbiggrin:

d20s and d%s are never used for damage rolls.

[Big Fau]

PHB, it tells you you use certain dice. D12 -> d20 -> d100. :smallbiggrin:

That rule was removed from the 3.5 version. The dice now progress differently.

[Claudius Maximus]

d20s and d%s are never used for damage rolls.

Nuh-uh! Dance of Ruin does 2d20 damage.

[ignayshus]

Next, I'd point out that since two-weapon fighting doesn't work unarmed (excepting special class features), you won't get that many attacks. You've only got one unarmed weapon: your (single) body. For instance, Magic Fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm) doesn't give your left kick a greater bonus than your head butt, because those are just different parts of a single weapon ─ just as the different edges of a sword are parts of a single weapon and aren't affected individually by Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeapon.htm). So no TWF unarmed.

Of course it's easy to get with a 1 level dip in Barbarian.

[Curmudgeon]

Of course it's easy to get with a 1 level dip in Barbarian.
That. with the City Brawler ACF, gets you just the single feat: Two Weapon Fighting (unarmed strikes only). The later feats (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting) still don't work with unarmed strikes because they apply to off-hand weapons, which you don't have unarmed. The only way to get those feats to work unarmed is with the ACF providing an exception to that requirement, which it does at Barbarian levels 6 and 11.

[term1nally s1ck]

'What you need to play', page 5 of the PHB.

Initiate explicitly makes you use the next die size, not the next damage size. If you do d10 damage, you now do d12 damage, DESPITE that not being the next size increase.

If you do d12 damage, you now do d20. If you did d20, you now do d100: Because these are the only dice that D&D recognises to exist.

[Curmudgeon]

'What you need to play', page 5 of the PHB.

Initiate explicitly makes you use the next die size, not the next damage size. If you do d10 damage, you now do d12 damage, DESPITE that not being the next size increase.

If you do d12 damage, you now do d20. If you did d20, you now do d100: Because these are the only dice that D&D recognises to exist.
Since you so kindly pointed out the rules passage on page 5, D&D doesn't recognize d100; percentile dice (note the plural) is a rolling of two d10s. Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries increases to the next die step ─ and yet there are no steps beyond d20.

[term1nally s1ck]

d100s are mentioned as an option when generating a lot of things in Core. Weather, treasure, etc.

[Curmudgeon]

d100s are mentioned as an option when generating a lot of things in Core. Weather, treasure, etc.
"d%" is used, but I'm pretty sure d100 never is. And, as I pointed out, d% (percentile dice) is not a die size. Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries is pretty clear about that being a die step, not a step involving a set of dice.

[Zaq]

d20s and d%s are never used for damage rolls.

Insightful Strike would like a word.

</missingthepoint>