Speed Based ToB Recovery Mechanic?

[Person_Man]

Last week someone requested a build based on running. I threw together a quick homebrew PrC, and got a lot a great suggestions from the Playground. So many, in fact, that I felt compelled to rewrite the entire thing and make it into a base class.

The core of the class is Momentum. (Yes, the name is an obvious rip off of Dragon Age. I'm terrible with names). You build up Momentum points by moving. You spend Momentum points on Talents. The Talents do plenty of awesome things.

Now I've compiled and written 20 something different movement based Talents and abilities, including 4-6 semi-original ideas. So many, in fact, that I think that organizing them into a Tome of Battle Discipline might be a much better way to pace them and encourage variety in their use.

But I can't think of a good maneuver renewal mechanic which is based on movement.

And I also want to see if anyone had additional ideas for running based talents/abilities/maneuvers/stances/whatever.

All ideas and commentary are welcome.


UPDATE: New class is up. Please go to this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11279158) for any comments, critiques, or suggestions. Thanks.

[Lateral]

I suppose that having it like the Warblade recovery could work- a swift action accompanied by a move of at least ten feet, and you can't use a maneuver in your standard action that round. It's a bit worse than the Warblade mechanic, but it's far better than the Swordsage one, and if you have a speed-based class I'm sure that the class features would end up helping to make up for it.

[Iferus]

Or you could remove recovery entirely, and instead work with empowering maneuvers. After moving 10 ft, you use it at half initiator level, and after moving your base speed you use it at full initiator level. The only restriction is that you cannot use the same maneuver twice in two consecutive turns.

[Lateral]

Or you could remove recovery entirely, and instead work with empowering maneuvers. After moving 10 ft, you use it at half initiator level, and after moving your base speed you use it at full initiator level. The only restriction is that you cannot use the same maneuver twice in two consecutive turns.

Well, but then speed boosts are hurting you since you need to move further to use them at full. Maybe if you just made it 30 feet necessary for full, and gave bonuses for moving progressively further, and made some sort of exception for jumping.

[Fax Celestis]

"Every time you use a move action for movement, recover a single maneuver", maybe? Or maybe "Whenever you qualify for skirmish".

Hell, maybe "After successfully using Tumble, Balance, Climb, Jump, or Swim in combat, recover a maneuver."

[Pechvarry]

Last week someone requested a build based on running. I threw together a quick homebrew PrC, and got a lot a great suggestions from the Playground. So many, in fact, that I felt compelled to rewrite the entire thing and make it into a base class.

The core of the class is Momentum. (Yes, the name is an obvious rip off of Dragon Age. I'm terrible with names). You build up Momentum points by moving. You spend Momentum points on Talents. The Talents do plenty of awesome things.

Now I've compiled and written 20 something different movement based Talents and abilities, including 4-6 semi-original ideas. So many, in fact, that I think that organizing them into a Tome of Battle Discipline might be a much better way to pace them and encourage variety in their use.

But I can't think of a good maneuver renewal mechanic which is based on movement.

And I also want to see if anyone had additional ideas for running based talents/abilities/maneuvers/stances/whatever.

All ideas and commentary are welcome.

It sounds like you might have your own answer: If you're re-writing it to be a discipline for a specific base class, then instead of a refresh mechanic, they simply need to build up Momentum points to spend on the maneuvers.

I've always wanted to write a ToB class which starts fights w/out readied maneuvers. I had in mind a tactical class gaining maneuvers based on circumstance, but going the route of "I simply haven't got into the spirit of the fight enough to unleash my potential" is viable enough.

---

If the above doesn't work for you, then here's my next suggestion: does this discipline eat action economy via movement requirements + action to use said ability? Is more action consuming going to make this discipline weaker?

If it is, and the discipline is locking in the user's each and every swift/move/standard actions, then you may want to think of an action-less recovery mechanic.

If it's not true, and the maneuvers "use themselves" by virtue of moving (move action strikes :O ), then perhaps it's the other way around, and the free action advantage in their movement (or, seen another way, free movement in their actions) means they demand a decent action investment to keep from easily spamming powerful moves.

[Kansaschaser]

At level 1: You recover 1 maneuver any time you move more than 30 feet in a single turn.

At level 5: You recover 1 maneuver any time you move more than 25 feet in a single turn.

At level 10: You recover 1 maneuver any time you move more than 20 feet in a single turn.

At level 15: You recover 1 maneuver any time you move more than 15 feet in a single turn.

Level 20 Capstone: Multi-recovery. You recover 1 maneuver for every 10 feet of movement. Example: If you moved 40 feet this turn, you recover 4 of your readied maneuvers.

[Ernir]

How about simply: For every x feet you move, you recover one expended maneuver of your choice?

Or all expended maneuvers?

Requires language to account for stuff like teleportations, mounts, and other forms of instantaneous/movement. However you would like to do it.

Perhaps have feats or a scaling class feature to alter x?

[Person_Man]

Lots of great advice here, which I am thankful for. How about this:

Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of five martial maneuvers. The Disciplines available to you are Lightning Snake (again, I'm horrible with names), Diamond Mind, and Tiger Claw. (At your DM's discretion, you may substitute Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw for the Falling Star (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Falling_Star_Discipline), Desert Wind, or Shadow Hand Disciples, as appropriate for your character).

The Runner begins with none of his maneuvers readied at the beginning of combat. Instead, at the start of each of his turns, as a Free Action the Runner may ready one maneuver of his choice for every 30 feet that he has moved since the start of his last turn. (Zero maneuvers if he moved less then 30 feet, one if he moved from 30-55 feet, 2 if he moves from 60-85 feet, and so on). The Runner may not ready a maneuver if it was readied or used since the start of his previous turn. If the Runner has or later gains maneuvers from feats or another class, then those maneuvers are also readied using this determination.

Only the Runner's own purposeful movement toward this determination. Movement that results from the Runner being mounted, carried, bull rushed, attacked, riding a vessel, interdimensional travel (such as Dimension Door or Teleport), or similar circumstances do not count towards the number of maneuvers the Runner may ready. The Runner cannot ready maneuvers before an encounter starts. His abilities are based on both mental and physical momentum, which rely on an awareness of real and immediate danger to build up and use.

You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown an the Table: The Runner. See table 3-1 pg 39 of the Tome of Battle to determine the highest level maneuvers you can learn. Upon reaching 4th level and every even level thereafter, you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of you already know, following the standard rules for doing so.


Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st level stance from any discipline open to you. At 2nd, 8th, and 14th level, you can choose one additional stance. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances that you know are available to you at all times. However, you do not begin combat in any stance. In order to enter a stance or change from one stance to another, you must move at least 30 feet (under the same restrictions as those listed above for readying a maneuver) and use a Swift Action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description. If the Runner has or later gains stances from feats or another class, then those stances are also put under this restriction (making Stone Dragon stances pointless for a Runner).


Thoughts?

[Salanmander]

The only problem I can see with that is that the runner will /never/ be able to use a maneuver in the first round of an encounter. If there are other ways for them to meaningfully contribute, that's fine. But if the player has to spend the first round of every combat "powering up", I can see that being a major frustration.

Edit: Actually I guess if you're walking or running when initiative is rolled you would be able to use a maneuver on the first round. And that fits in well with the theme: i need to be moving to be the most ready for combat. So consider my objection mostly rescinded.

(Although I am now envisioning a party in which one guy always runs around the others, even when they're at a tavern or such, because the player never wants a 'dead' round.)

[Fax Celestis]

(Although I am now envisioning a party in which one guy always runs around the others, even when they're at a tavern or such, because the player never wants a 'dead' round.)

This guy?

http://ve3dmedia.ign.com/images/02/63/26335_normal.jpg

[Lateral]

Lots of great advice here, which I am thankful for. How about this:

Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of five martial maneuvers. The Disciplines available to you are Lightning Snake (again, I'm horrible with names), Diamond Mind, and Tiger Claw. (At your DM's discretion, you may substitute Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw for the Falling Star (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Falling_Star_Discipline), Desert Wind, or Shadow Hand Disciples, as appropriate for your character).

The Runner begins with none of his maneuvers readied at the beginning of combat. Instead, at the start of each of his turns, as a Free Action the Runner may ready one maneuver of his choice for every 30 feet that he has moved since the start of his last turn. (Zero maneuvers if he moved less then 30 feet, one if he moved from 30-55 feet, 2 if he moves from 60-85 feet, and so on). The Runner may not ready a maneuver if it was readied or used since the start of his previous turn. If the Runner has or later gains maneuvers from feats or another class, then those maneuvers are also readied using this determination.

Only the Runner's own purposeful movement toward this determination. Movement that results from the Runner being mounted, carried, bull rushed, attacked, riding a vessel, interdimensional travel (such as Dimension Door or Teleport), or similar circumstances do not count towards the number of maneuvers the Runner may ready. The Runner cannot ready maneuvers before an encounter starts. His abilities are based on both mental and physical momentum, which rely on an awareness of real and immediate danger to build up and use.

You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown an the Table: The Runner. See table 3-1 pg 39 of the Tome of Battle to determine the highest level maneuvers you can learn. Upon reaching 4th level and every even level thereafter, you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of you already know, following the standard rules for doing so.


Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st level stance from any discipline open to you. At 2nd, 8th, and 14th level, you can choose one additional stance. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances that you know are available to you at all times. However, you do not begin combat in any stance. In order to enter a stance or change from one stance to another, you must move at least 30 feet (under the same restrictions as those listed above for readying a maneuver) and use a Swift Action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description. If the Runner has or later gains stances from feats or another class, then those stances are also put under this restriction (making Stone Dragon stances pointless for a Runner).


Thoughts?
I'm not really a fan of gaining maneuvers as the encounter goes on because it hurts the versatility that maneuvers are supposed to provide. It kind of means that you'll often only have the maneuver you need after you need it, because you won't know what you'll need beforehand and your options start out limited and grow, instead of the other way around.

Honestly, I think it might be weaker than the Swordsage mechanic. Hell, even when they're 1/encounter from Martial Study you still have them all the first time you need them. With this, you may only have them by the second time you need them, and that'll end up being a problem at times when you don't have a second chance.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Perhaps starting the encounter with half of the max number of maneuvers readied so the Runner can start encounters with some combat ability?

[Lateral]

Perhaps starting the encounter with half of the max number of maneuvers readied so the Runner can start encounters with some combat ability?

This would probably work better, yeah. It also allows you to at least start the encounter with a strike, since you're moving around so much that you aren't going to get a full attack anyway and may as well use a maneuver.

[The Glyphstone]

What about reversing it? the Runner starts every combat with his full list of maneuvers prepared, but loses a random maneuver during any round where he doesn't move at least X distance? That'd change the feel to a sort of pinbally warrior, frantically running from enemy to enemy or in circles around one enemy to avoid losing speed and having his maneuvers 'bleed away'. To compensate, allow 1 maneuver recovery during any turn in which he does nothing but move.

This sort of discipline probably wouldn't have any full-round action maneuvers, and might even have things like a swift-action damaging strike at higher levels.

[Dusk Eclipse]

What about reversing it? the Runner starts every combat with his full list of maneuvers prepared, but loses a random maneuver during any round where he doesn't move at least X distance? That'd change the feel to a sort of pinbally warrior, frantically running from enemy to enemy or in circles around one enemy to avoid losing speed and having his maneuvers 'bleed away'. To compensate, allow 1 maneuver recovery during any turn in which he does nothing but move.

This sort of discipline probably wouldn't have any full-round action maneuvers, and might even have things like a swift-action damaging strike at higher levels.

This sounds pretty interesting, and I believe it meshes well with the idea of momentum.

Perhaps having the Discipline focusing on boosts at the higher levels and giving pounce as a class feature?

[Person_Man]

My intent is that the Runner (I hate that name. Any ideas on what else I could call it?) should start combat with 0 maneuvers or stances readied, and that as combat continues he builds momentum and his options grow. He'll still have a other "always on" class abilities which will give him some options during the first round - though obviously not a ton, since he'll have full Crusader-ish maneuver progression.

For the sake of balance I might allow him to start with 1 maneuver or with his stance on or something like that. But my general reasoning is this:

1) I think it fits the concept. A class based on movement should have to move in order to use it's abilities.

2) As a DM, I've observed that Tier 1-3 builds often try to resolve combat on the first and/or second round, and then hoard resources. Casters/Psionics will fire off one of their best spells/powers, Binders use their best 1 in 5 round abilities, Swordsages and Warblades use their best maneuvers. The Factotum burns through Inspiration points. And so on. So in most cases combat is decided on the first round, even if it takes the players 2-5 rounds after that to mop things up.

Exceptions to the rule are the Crusader, Totemist, and Incarnate. But none of them really "charges up" power as combat goes on, encouraging longer combats, and more variety in later rounds. This is an attempt to make a class that does that. I'm fully open to the idea that I haven't dreamed up the best mechanic to reach that goal. But that's my goal here.

Much to think about. Any additional feedback?

[The Glyphstone]

Pounce at level 6 or so would probably be good. Mobility as a bonus feat at 1st level, and maybe a class feature of 'Improved Mobility' that scales the Mobility AC-boost up through the class.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I feel the stance should be always on, to keep with the normal mechanics of stances.

As far as tricks other than maneuvers, perhaps giving a slowed skirmish progression or something along those lines?

[Quirp]

My intent is that the Runner (I hate that name. Any ideas on what else I could call it?)

How about Actuarius (latin for fast)? I think it sounds cool.

[Pechvarry]

I'm not really a fan of gaining maneuvers as the encounter goes on because it hurts the versatility that maneuvers are supposed to provide. It kind of means that you'll often only have the maneuver you need after you need it, because you won't know what you'll need beforehand and your options start out limited and grow, instead of the other way around.

Honestly, I think it might be weaker than the Swordsage mechanic. Hell, even when they're 1/encounter from Martial Study you still have them all the first time you need them. With this, you may only have them by the second time you need them, and that'll end up being a problem at times when you don't have a second chance.

I don't really get this. The crusader gets random maneuvers. This class gets to choose a maneuver to ready every round - potentially more than one - without an action cost. If a crusader can get by, this guy can even better. As for the first round of combat -- 90% of 3.5 melee rely on the core tactics and combat maneuvers. I think having to know your roots for just one round per combat is just fine. Plus, it means trying as hard as possible to act in the surprise round.

One funny idea would be to use the 3.0 "Ambush" class feature of some prestige classes -- basically, sneak attack on the 1st round of combat only. But honestly, I'd rather see nothing for all the reasons Person_Man outlined: a combatant who doesn't lead with his Right Hook would be nice.

@Person_Man: if you're giving an additional maneuver readied per 30' moved, I would consider a cap -- probably class level based. Even if it's a relatively high limit, it seems like some sort of were-bird character with 300' fly speed could really wreck how the class is intended to pan out.

[Heatwizard]

Suppose you started with half maneuvers, then for every round you move less then half your speed, you lose one, but for every round you move all(or more) of your speed you gain one?

[Kansaschaser]

At level 1: You recover 1 maneuver any time you move more than 30 feet in a single turn.

At level 5: You recover 1 maneuver any time you move more than 25 feet in a single turn.

At level 10: You recover 1 maneuver any time you move more than 20 feet in a single turn.

At level 15: You recover 1 maneuver any time you move more than 15 feet in a single turn.

Level 20 Capstone: Multi-recovery. You recover 1 maneuver for every 10 feet of movement. Example: If you moved 40 feet this turn, you recover 4 of your readied maneuvers.

I'm revising my suggestion. (Is it weird to quote yourself? Anyway...) Stage up the recovery like Skirmish.

At level 1: You recover 1 maneuver for every 30 feet of movement. Max of 1 maneuver per round.

At level 3: You can recover 2 maneuvers per round maximum.

At level 5: You recover 1 maneuver for every 25 feet of movement.

At level 7: You can recover 3 maneuvers per round maximum.

At level 10: You recover 1 maneuver for every 20 feet of movement.

At level 12: You can recover 4 maneuvers per round maximum.

At level 15: You recover 1 maneuver for every 15 feet of movement.

At level 17: You can recover 5 maneuvers per round maximum.

At level 20: You recover 1 maneuver for every 10 feet of movement.

I think the important thing to note with this character is that you can expend maneuvers in the same round that you recover some maneuvers. I know it says when the Warblade recovers his/her maneuvers, they cannot spend any maneuvers in that same round.

[Prime32]

Maybe you can recover one maneuver in any round where you take a move action and do not use a maneuver, and all your maneuvers whenever you take a withdraw action?

[Pechvarry]

I think the important thing to note with this character is that you can expend maneuvers in the same round that you recover some maneuvers. I know it says when the Warblade recovers his/her maneuvers, they cannot spend any maneuvers in that same round.

I don't think that's too much of a cause for concern -- you're spending an action on moving, which means you're not attacking*.

Also, Crusaders get to use their maneuvers in the round they were granted. Viewing this class as a "granted" type instead of a "refreshed" type seems most appropriate (to me, at least).

*Has anyone discussed charging? My feelings are going to be rather biased: D&D melee is choked to the brim with chargers, so I'd like to see incentives not to.

[Person_Man]

OK, so the shell of the class is now up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11279158) in the homebrew forum. Please take any additional commentary and suggestions over there. The new speed based Discipline (I'm going with the name Lightning Fox for now) will be up this weekend. I just need to re-format everything and sort things into their appropriate levels.

Thanks for all the advice in this thread and any additional commentary on the class or Discipline. Having a community of thoughtful people to look at stuff makes writing a much more enjoyable hobby.