Did the designers even read the rules?

[dextercorvia]

I was scanning the SpC for good spells to use with Explosive Spell. I found Shadow Landscap, a 9th level druid spell, Area: 1 mile radius spread, centered on a point in space. The problem? Range: Long (400 ft + 40ft/level).


A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the Range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted. Standard ranges include the following.

[tyckspoon]

It's not the only one. There's a thread somewhere around here about the Blizzard spell (effect: makes a freaking huge snowstorm. Problem: The area it was meant to cover is about twice the spell's Range) where that came up too.

[Amphetryon]

Two ways to read that discrepancy spring to mind:

1. Specific trumps general, such that spells with a built in Radius larger than their Range are exempted from that issue with Range.

2. The designers forgot their meds that day (again?) and thus had absolutely no idea whatsoever how any aspect of the game's rules worked.

Decide which seems more reasonable for yourself.

[Saintheart]

Obligatory mention of the Locate City bomb.

I'm done.

[tyckspoon]

2. The designers forgot their meds that day (again?) and thus had absolutely no idea whatsoever how any aspect of the game's rules worked.

Decide which seems more reasonable for yourself.

It's 2, unfortunately- some of the people working on the splat material just weren't paying attention. Core shows several examples of how these kinds of spells should have been formatted- check Control Winds and Control Weather, for instance.

[weckar]

If you would replace radius by diameter and ft by yd it would sort of make sense. In this way, not so much.

[sreservoir]

when you have a caster level of 123, it actually matters.

I'm sure there's some cheese that will get you there :smallamused:

[dextercorvia]

I guess I'll just have to settle for throwing someone 1200 feet, instead of 5000.:smallbiggrin: I do like that it mentions point in space, so we can assume ball.

[Killer Angel]

I'm sure there's some cheese that will get you there :smallamused:

I can smell the stink staying behind the keyboard. :smalltongue:

[dextercorvia]

when you have a caster level of 123, it actually matters.

I'm sure there's some cheese that will get you there :smallamused:

I got up over 100 the other day, but it wasn't easy. I guess I could have thrown a greater consumptive field in there.

[Person_Man]

The core rule you quoted is a good one. If you're a 5th level caster and you shoot off your 20 ft radius fireball (range 400 ft. + 40 ft./level), you can't get an extra 10 ft of range by moving the center of the fireball burst to the very edge of your range limit. Whoever wrote Control Weather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm) was smart enough to read this rule. Whoever wrote Shadow Landscape was not. It's just sloppy editing.

[Eloel]

Whoever wrote Control Weather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWeather.htm) was smart enough to read this rule.
Not really. Druids still get shafted - 3 mile area won't work with 2 mile range.

[Amphetryon]

Not really. Druids still get shafted - 3 mile area won't work with 2 mile range.

Does that mean Druids can't cast the spell, given that their version of it is apparently not RAW legal?

[Ernir]

I'm with Person_Man here. It's a good rule. Stuff like Wings of Flurry gets kind of wonky if you don't know of it.
The spell is kind of stupid, then, though.

As for whether the designers read the rules - yeah, I'm pretty sure they did. They just didn't do it as well as an internet full of enthusiasts can. :smalltongue:

[Quietus]

Does that mean Druids can't cast the spell, given that their version of it is apparently not RAW legal?

Nah, just means that they're limited to the same 2-mile radius as everyone else. Unless they Enlarge the spell.

[Amphetryon]

Nah, just means that they're limited to the same 2-mile radius as everyone else. Unless they Enlarge the spell.

But that flatly contradicts the verbiage for Control Weather as far as how it works for Druids. We're left with no interpretation that can be said to be correct by RAW.

[dextercorvia]

But that flatly contradicts the verbiage for Control Weather as far as how it works for Druids. We're left with no interpretation that can be said to be correct by RAW.

No, we're good on that. It says the druid affects a 3 mile radius. They didn't just change the area. That line can be read to change range and area.

[sreservoir]

area isn't mentioned specifically at all in that line, actually.

[hamishspence]

Some area effect spells have a range of "touch" (Erupt, for example).

A case could be made that, by including huge areas on spells with short ranges- those particular spells are supposed to have full area.

[Salanmander]

Some area effect spells have a range of "touch" (Erupt, for example).

A case could be made that, by including huge areas on spells with short ranges- those particular spells are supposed to have full area.

That's true if you're playing by RAI (which I tend to, if there's a discrepancy). By RAW, however, that argument can't be made because it's not written in the rules anywhere.

[Amphetryon]

No, we're good on that. It says the druid affects a 3 mile radius. They didn't just change the area. That line can be read to change range and area.

It affects an area a mile larger than it's able to affect, and "we're good on that"? I'm obviously confused about something.

[sonofzeal]

when you have a caster level of 123, it actually matters.

I'm sure there's some cheese that will get you there :smallamused:
Actually, if the caster level is 57 and you center the spell on the extreme easterly edge of your range, some of the westerly edge would be uncovered. So CL 57 instead of CL 123. Much more reasonable.

As if =P

[Salanmander]

It affects an area a mile larger than it's able to affect, and "we're good on that"? I'm obviously confused about something.

What dextercorvia is saying is that because the line is "affects a circle with a 3-mile radius" instead of "changes the area of the spell to 3-mile-radius circle" it can be read as extending /both/ the area /and/ the range, since that is necessary by RAW in order to affect that circle.

[Tavar]

It affects an area a mile larger than it's able to affect, and "we're good on that"? I'm obviously confused about something.

Not true. For druids, it says that spell is different, specifically that it has a longer duration and effects a larger area. It can be assumed, therefore, that in addition to the area changing, the range changes, so that the spell is valid.

Plus, you know, specific trumps general. The spell specifically calls out that it works differently, thus it works differently.

[dextercorvia]

What dextercorvia is saying is that because the line is "affects a circle with a 3-mile radius" instead of "changes the area of the spell to 3-mile-radius circle" it can be read as extending /both/ the area /and/ the range, since that is necessary by RAW in order to affect that circle.

Thank you. That is indeed what I was trying to say.

[Amphetryon]

What dextercorvia is saying is that because the line is "affects a circle with a 3-mile radius" instead of "changes the area of the spell to 3-mile-radius circle" it can be read as extending /both/ the area /and/ the range, since that is necessary by RAW in order to affect that circle.

Could you explain the difference inherent in making this extrapolation in order to make the spell work as intended for Druids, versus not making a similar extrapolation for spells like "Shadow Landscap[e]", which does not function at all without reading this exception into the rules?

[Delcor]

I always thought that regardless of the spells radius, (whether its bigger than or smaller than the range) the spells range is just the maximum distance you can center it.


I found Shadow Landscap, a 9th level druid spell, Area: 1 mile radius spread, centered on a point in space. The problem? Range: Long (400 ft + 40ft/level).

So for this case ^ you could center shadow landscape (400 ft +40ft/CL) even though its radius is so large. It sounds ridiculous to cast a spell at long range and then be caught in its radius, but thats what I assumed. So I don't know how that would work for harmful spells.

[Salanmander]

Could you explain the difference inherent in making this extrapolation in order to make the spell work as intended for Druids, versus not making a similar extrapolation for spells like "Shadow Landscap[e]", which does not function at all without reading this exception into the rules?

The difference is that Shadow Landscape (apparently, I don't have the text in front of my) /specifically/ sets the range and area separately. On the other hand, the line on control weather just says it "affects this bigger circle". In order for that to be true both the area and the range must change.

Basically, if you say "this spell has a range of 5 feet and an area of a 30 ft. circle", you've told me what the range is. I can't make any assumptions about it.

But if you say "this spell affects a 30 ft. circle centered on you", you haven't told me what the range is, so I can assume it is something sensible based on your description.

[dextercorvia]

Could you explain the difference inherent in making this extrapolation in order to make the spell work as intended for Druids, versus not making a similar extrapolation for spells like "Shadow Landscap[e]", which does not function at all without reading this exception into the rules?

Shadow Landscape functions, It just doesn't receive the full benefit of its area (usually) since the range is (almost always) going to be smaller.

In the case of Control Weather, the spell description provides an exception to the stated area and range -- just not very explicitly.

[Gamer Girl]

I'd say they glanced over the rules. But the big problem is that a good half of the designers are not Gamers.

Oh sure most of them have played a game or two so that they could have their ''Gamer Cred'' but that does not make them Gamers.

At least half of the Wizard folks see it as just a job. They punch a time clock, and do their work. And worse it IS work to them. They have a 'hard day' when they are told ''we need you to write up 20 new spells by Friday''. Then they are 'forced' to work on that. The horror.... (The same way supermodels complain that they had to sit in the ocean for three hours to take a picture...)

And, naturally, they don't have a 'optimized power gamer type' on the payroll anyway....

[Amphetryon]

I'm just going to have to agree to disagree here. Enjoy.

[NichG]

I don't think its even about them being 'gamers' or not. It's about the intended level of functionality of what they produced. Most of them probably knew the rules with the equivalent of about one or two years worth of experience using them. The kind of detailed analysis that RAW has been subjected to is the product of millions of eyes over ten+ years.

RAW mostly serves the purpose of allowing people to say definitively (or at least mostly so) whether they are right or not, which is a great utility towards formal tournaments, proofs, and internet arguments, but probably wasn't a primary design criterion. Most groups of people new to D&D, if you give them a spell that says Range: 10 ft, Area: 400ft will notice 'Oh cool, its a spell that you can't help but affect yourself with too!' and not notice 'But doesn't that mean its actually Area: 10ft?'. And in some sense, thats probably the level of expertise the rules were designed to survive.