Tashalatora vs Psionic Fist

[prufock]

I need a quick bit of help understanding why everyone and their mother recommends Tashalatora over Psionic Fist. I don't quite get it.

Psionic Fist requires Monk 3, and has 10 levels. At ECL 13, then, you get:
71 pp
10 powers known
Max power level 5
2 bonus psionic feats
BAB +9
F/R/W 6/10/10
13th level monk damage, AC, and speed bonus, 2 bonus monk feats

Psychic Warrior with Tash requires Monk 1 (technically 0, but that's a questionable interpretation). You also burn a feat of Monastic Training. At ECL 13, you get:
43 pp
12 powers known
Max power level 4
5 bonus fighter/psionic feats
BAB +9
F/R/W 10/6/6
13th level monk damage, AC, and speed bonus, one bonus monk feat probably spent on Monastic Training

Why is Tashalatora considered so sweepingly better? Building to 20 is better with Tash, is that it? Wouldn't more mid-levels be as good or better with Psionic Fist? More PP, faster power progression, a couple less powers and feats, same BAB, better saves. Seems like a push to me.

[MeeposFire]

Well tash can be comboed with any psionic class(including psionic fist for that matter) and it stacks with more monk features I believe (such as flurry).

So you could be getting psion or ardent manifesting and be using it with slayer to get full BAB which is much better than psionic fist in many ways.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Where the heck does it say Psionic Fist requires three monk levels?

[MeeposFire]

Where the heck does it say Psionic Fist requires three monk levels?

It doesn't though there are only so many ways of getting the still mind feature and monk3 is the most "normal".

[Draz74]

Why is Tashalatora considered so sweepingly better? Building to 20 is better with Tash, is that it? Wouldn't more mid-levels be as good or better with Psionic Fist? More PP, faster power progression, a couple less powers and feats, same BAB, better saves. Seems like a push to me.

That's a good question. However, based on the summary you've posted, I see one big advantage to Tashalatora: three more feats. Those Psychic Warrior feats can go a long way.

Then again, this might be void if you go Monk 3 / Fighter 2 / Psionic Fist X or something. You may have a good point.

If we conclude that these two options are pretty much equal through the middle levels, but that Tash runs ahead for the win at high levels ... hmmm.

You might also do a comparison with Ardent-based Tashalatora; I personally prefer Psychic Warrior because I'm a feat hog, but I believe Ardent is considered the more powerful option overall.

[MeeposFire]

Well there is also an arguement based on what levels you are starting, doing, and ending. If you start at level one and only go to level 5 a fighter is a great choice but if you are going to expect to play high levels it losses value. Psioninc fist runs into that same sort of area since it lacks high level progression and it is also worse when it first starts so it is really only "better" possibly for a few levels in between. Not sure how tight it is but it is probably a scale of 2-4 levels due to its lower manifestor level and lack of scaling after level 10.

[Kylarra]

Psionic Fist requires BAB+4 and Concentration 9, so you're not jumping in there until after level 6, therefore at ECL 13 your psionics is 31pp, 7powers known capped at 4th.. which is pretty much strictly worse than your PsyWar. You also need to burn a random feat on Wild Talent.

[Kantolin]

Psionic Fist requires Monk 3, and has 10 levels. At ECL 13, then, you get:

Psionic fist also requires concentration 9 ranks, however, so you can't get in until level 7. Also BAB+4, which also cannot be obtained at monk 3.

So if you go Monk 6 / Psionic Fist 7, then at level 13 you have:

31 pp
7 powers known
Max power level 4
1 bonus psionic feat
BAB +9

Which is perhaps less potent.

[Prime32]

Try an ardent Tashalatora instead.

[Keld Denar]

What happens if you take Monsatic Training (Psionic Fist)?

Monk3/Fighter2/PsionicFist10

Would you have the Flurry of a Monk13, and the UAS damage, AC, and movement of a Monk23?

I always thought it would be kinda fun to do a Monk2/PsychicRogue18 with Tash. Compression down to miniscule size, use Underfoot Combat, and backstab people in the ankles. RAWR!

[Cog]

I always thought it would be kinda fun to do a Monk2/PsychicRogue18 with Tash. Compression down to miniscule size, use Underfoot Combat, and backstab people in the ankles. RAWR!
I've got a similar build waiting to see play. It uses Ascetic Rogue instead, since that gave the bonuses I actually wanted with one less feat spent, and I combined it with the Hin Fist sub levels from Champions of Valor (I think the web enhancement), and the Exemplars of Evil evasion-for-invisibility trade.

[Eldariel]

Monk-abilities cap at 20 but I guess by RAW you could get double progression there with Psionic Fist.

That said, yeah, Tashalatora is better for the obvious reasons:
- More Powers Known
- Higher level powers

Monk 2/Ardent 18 gets 9th level manifesting, Manifesting as if Level 20 (skipping only 2 low level powers) and a ton of Power Points and Powers.

Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18 gets 6th level manifesting, a massive amount of extra feats and power list tailored for the job.

Monk 2/Psy War-or-Ardent 8/Illithid Slayer 10 gets about the same with 17 BAB, though only level 12 Monk class features (you obviously Tash Slayer in this build) - and obviously they lose out on the higher level Mantles or Feats from Psy War/Ardent respectively.


In short, Psionic Fist:
- Gets massively shafted on Power Points (71 base and only ever 10 levels worth of bonuses against 103/280 base and 18 levels worth of bonuses)
- Lacks access to a bunch of really key higher level powers
- Will never have a competitive Manifester Level against e.g. Dispels
- Pretty much sucks for the first 3-6 levels (Tash only has to endure 2 levels of Monk so it's mostly fine in a level 3 game already, though obviously playing Monk for first 2 levels sucks)
- Only ever gets 10 unique Powers Known (Tash Psy War gets 18, Tash Ardent 19)

Or put other way, Psionic Fist is pretty bad. It's good for fixing Monk but in a game with actual casters, Dispels will be flying around and he'll both, have trouble with endurance and have trouble sustaining his buffs (Dispel Buffer, for example, is a level 6 power that Psi Fist can never learn). He's also far less versatile than the actual Manifester-based Tashalatora builds.

Psionic Fist is quite the upgrade to Monk but still has quite a few problems that a Tashalatora-build sidesteps. Tashalatora Monks are up there in the sweet spot gameplay-wise (tier 3 or so) while Psi Fist is, while better than Monk compared to the rest of the system, still a bit under.

[Keld Denar]

You could take Practiced Manifester for Psionic Fist to get to ML14. This would net you a handful of extra PP based on your Wisdom, probably more than you'd get from taking Wild Talent or similar.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It doesn't though there are only so many ways of getting the still mind feature and monk3 is the most "normal".

I was gonna ask why you needed still mind. I now realize you're talking about the PrC. Why the heck did they put a PrC and a feat of the same name in the same book?

[Eldariel]

You could take Practiced Manifester for Psionic Fist to get to ML14. This would net you a handful of extra PP based on your Wisdom, probably more than you'd get from taking Wild Talent or similar.

Aye. That said, it's still a far cry from what the Tashalatora-builds would get with their ML 20 (of course, Psy War is also kinda effed in terms of Power Points but given he still gains full benefits of the bonus, he can make do provided high enough Wis - of course, there's also the Manifester Arrows-deal).

[Tvtyrant]

I was gonna ask why you needed still mind. I now realize you're talking about the PrC. Why the heck did they put a PrC and a feat of the same name in the same book?

WoTC apologizes for the inconvenience.

[prufock]

Thanks folks, everything you've said makes sense so far. Somehow I forgot the BAB 4 and Concentrate 9 requirements. I guess the easiest entry would be (Full BAB Class) 2/Monk 3, which would put you at ECL 15 by the time you're through the class. At that point, Tashalatora is definitely better (except slightly behind in PP). Psionic Fist still may have the edge at certain levels, but overall Tashalatora wins it.

Personally I'd vote against stacking Tash and Psionic Fist due to the way they're worded. Both say something to the effect of "your levels of this psionic class stack with your monk levels." It seems like they would overlap rather than stack.

[LordBlades]

Second the Ardent Talashtora suggestion. Given that the Ardent max power level known is based on manifester level rather than class level, with PRacticed Manifester you can get 7th level powers at ECL 13 with a Monk/Ardent

[Greenish]

Why the heck did they put a PrC and a feat of the same name in the same book?Can't blame WotC here, there's no feat called Fist of Zuoken.

[prufock]

Second the Ardent Talashtora suggestion. Given that the Ardent max power level known is based on manifester level rather than class level, with PRacticed Manifester you can get 7th level powers at ECL 13 with a Monk/Ardent

I'll have to look into the Ardent, I'm not really familiar with the class. My regular DM doesn't like psionics, so I don't have much experience with the system in general.

[Prime32]

Can't blame WotC here, there's no feat called Fist of Zuoken.Likewise, the XPH had a PrC called Illithid Slayer.

[Psyren]

Psionics Unleashed changed both their names to keep them distinct from the respective feats. The Psionic Fist PrC became Psychic Fist, and Slayer became Phrenic Slayer (expanding its opposition to a wider variety of psionic foes.)

[Eldariel]

Thanks folks, everything you've said makes sense so far. Somehow I forgot the BAB 4 and Concentrate 9 requirements. I guess the easiest entry would be (Full BAB Class) 2/Monk 3, which would put you at ECL 15 by the time you're through the class. At that point, Tashalatora is definitely better (except slightly behind in PP). Psionic Fist still may have the edge at certain levels, but overall Tashalatora wins it.

Well, "slightly behind on base PP" but gains bonus as 3 levels higher manifester level (or granted, 1 with Practiced Manifester), is compensated by the higher Manifester Level and thus higher pool of bonus PP. It comes out about evenly. And, of course, that's the singular level where Psionic Fist is ahead; latter levels have Psi Fist fall behind on PP because of lacking a progression and earlier on it lags slightly behind the Psy War (with the convergence point being ECL 11 where they have the same base PP and Psy War is ahead by virtue of the bonus points).