Wizard: Unstoppable Force

[pegase]

Can we devise a no-save, no-SR, attack (that may be highly gimmicky in nature) that can destroy virtually anything with a wizard 20 (sources available: d20srd.org)?

[Gavinfoxx]

Can we devise a no-save, no-SR, attack (that may be highly gimmicky in nature) that can destroy virtually anything with a wizard 20 (sources available: d20srd.org)?

Gate in a Solar?

[Eldariel]

Can we devise a no-save, no-SR, attack (that may be highly gimmicky in nature) that can destroy virtually anything with a wizard 20 (sources available: d20srd.org)?

Most effective attack in SRD-only is Shapechange or Gate. Unfortunately the shells available in Core don't lend themselves well to reliable damage and you lack a key "penetrate immunity"-metamagic anyways.

Though using Red Wizard of Thay you can get closer (it's in the DMG).

[Ganurath]

No saving throw, no spell resistance, works on virtually anything? Sudden Widen a downward-facing Gate above the target to the core of the Positive or Negative Energy Plane, then use a swift action to cast Celerity, and finish it off with Reverse Gravity. If you'll allow saves, replace Gate with a Prismatic Wall at the top of the Reverse Gravity.

[krai]

I was hoping this would be a immovable rod vs unstoppable force thing.

[pegase]

No saving throw, no spell resistance, works on virtually anything? Sudden Widen a downward-facing Gate above the target to the core of the Positive or Negative Energy Plane, then use a swift action to cast Celerity, and finish it off with Reverse Gravity. If you'll allow saves, replace Gate with a Prismatic Wall at the top of the Reverse Gravity.

Wow. Things like this. Sadly I don't think celerity is in the SRD but that's not hard to compensate for.

WAAAIT.

How much damage does the positive and negative energy planes do anyway?

[Douglas]

For unstoppable damage, it's hard to beat Hail of Stone from Spell Compendium. Area (so no immunity to targeted stuff, a la swarms), no SR, no save, untyped spell damage (so no energy resistances or DR), instantaneous conjuration (so even AMF doesn't stop it). It has just three problems: high casting time (1 round), expensive material component (cost 25 gp), and low damage cap (5d4 maximum).

To really get good damage out of this, you need Arcane Thesis, several metamagic feats, and (Greater) Arcane Fusion. If you get it all put together right, though, I'm pretty sure it's enough to one-shot anything in the Monster Manual that isn't outright immune to damage. The only thing that can block it besides contingencies and immediate actions is Globe of Invulnerability, and if you get enough Heighten on it that won't work either.

Edit: Whoops, just saw the SRD-only restriction. Sorry, that really puts a crimp in things. I can't think of anything from the SRD that could approach Hail of Stone.

[Eurus]

Bear in mind that "virtually anything" is simple enough, as long as you don't need to destroy things like... another 20th level wizard (or a great wyrm/Solar/other spellcasting mob). Those, it's quite a bit harder. They could simply plane shift away, for instance. Or gate in friends.

[tyckspoon]

In Core, your best bet is probably a Red Wizard abusing circle magic with the Time Stop-> Delayed Blast Fireball stack trick. A full great circle can theoretically provide 81 levels of magic to play with, so..

We need to deal with SR: the highest SR in the MM1 is low 30s. We can assume 20 from normal levels, +5 from Red Wizard's Spell Power feature, so we only need to assign 8 or so here to auto-beat pretty much anything.

Beating saves: Our base save is going to be 31(level 7 spell, Int mod 14 from an aged Gray Elf with all the stat-boost items.) The monsters we want to blow up get around a +22. So.. we're gonna chuck 10 levels of Heighten on these fireballs. That'll give us a DC of 41. Shame we can't make it to 'only on a 1' territory, but it's not bad. Why only 10 levels? Because we needed to leave some space for:

Ensuring the kill: Maximize those suckers too.

So what we do: Cast a Maximized Time Stop. Lay down 5 Maximized Heightened Delayed Blast Fireballs. Ignore SR, your CL is too high for it to matter. Watch your victim attempt five DC 37 saves against 120 damage each. Loot the ashes for fire-resistant treasure.

'course, it's got downsides- you won't hit Golems and Fire immunity is depressingly common- but it's the surest kill I know of in Core aside from the whole Forcecage->Dimensional Anchor-> Cloudkill combo for screwing with things that are too weak to matter.

In the actual SRD, which doesn't feature the Red Wizard? Probably doing the Explosive Runes Bomb, since force damage is pretty much impossible to resist and the reader/guy at the center of the explosion doesn't get a save. Still have to deal with SR, but a level 20 caster with Spell Penetration and/or Spell Power will get through enough of it to make the kill.

[kiergon]

Windowless cell Forcecage
No sr, no save, a tad bit expensive and only works on non teleporting, planewalking, and breathing targets.
But if your target cant teleport, planeshift and needs to breath he is dead.
And depends on your cosmology for teleport and planeshift, if those spells have to pass thru the ethereal your target is out of luck, force effects affect the ethereal as well as the prime


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm

[Eldariel]

Windowless cell Forcecage
No sr, no save, a tad bit expensive and only works on non teleporting, planewalking, and breathing targets.
But if your target cant teleport, planeshift and needs to breath he is dead.
And depends on your cosmology for teleport and planeshift, if those spells have to pass thru the ethereal your target is out of luck, force effects affect the ethereal as well as the prime


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forcecage.htm

At least have the decency to use Dimensional Lock alongside it :smallwink: Though Forcecage is eminently destroyable by any creature with a modicum of power (true power, not some worthless physical strength).

[kiergon]

At least have the decency to use Dimensional Lock alongside it :smallwink: Though Forcecage is eminently destroyable by any creature with a modicum of power (true power, not some worthless physical strength).

true, Forcecage + Dimensional Anchor
even truly powerful creatures will have a hard time escaping, since they need either disintegrate, disjunction, dispel magic and that would be all I can think of...of those only dispel magic is a common spell to have prepared for a batman wizard or any kind of sorcerer.
Still if the target doesn't need to breath, then he is just stuck, could be useful for other reasons, but he is not necessarily dead.

[Eldariel]

true, Forcecage + Dimensional Anchor

Dimensional Anchor is bad. Touch attack, can't be used in Time Stop, only affects one opponent, things can go wrong with it. Dimensional Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) is 100 times more reliable, in conjunction with movement restricting abilities like Forcecage.

[Eurus]

A good old Forcecage + Dimensional Lock will easily take out anything without spellcasting with almost no chance of failure, yeah. But really, why are you blowing that much magic (and an expensive material component) to beat something without spellcasting? Waste of effort, really. :smalltongue:

[holywhippet]

Can it be a combo attack? Prismatic sphere/wall followed by a bull rush or two?

[Blisstake]

No saving throw, no spell resistance, works on virtually anything? Sudden Widen a downward-facing Gate above the target to the core of the Positive or Negative Energy Plane, then use a swift action to cast Celerity, and finish it off with Reverse Gravity. If you'll allow saves, replace Gate with a Prismatic Wall at the top of the Reverse Gravity.

For this to work in core, you'd need a metamagic rod for quicken and widen, wouldn't you?

[Eldariel]

For this to work in core, you'd need a metamagic rod for quicken and widen, wouldn't you?

Or Time Stop. Don't forget tho, flying creatures don't give a crap about Reverse Gravity making this obscenely unreliable (comparable to the old Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity).

[Flame of Anor]

Or Time Stop. Don't forget tho, flying creatures don't give a crap about Reverse Gravity making this obscenely unreliable (comparable to the old Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity).

If you put the Gate or Wall close enough over their heads, it should work fine for most flying creatures. They'll suddenly find that they're propelling themselves with gravity--it should take at least a move action to turn around and regain equilibrium for a creature with Average or worse manoeuvrability. This is, of course, assuming your DM takes common-sense physics into account.

[Eldariel]

If you put the Gate or Wall close enough over their heads, it should work fine for most flying creatures. They'll suddenly find that they're propelling themselves with gravity--it should take at least a move action to turn around and regain equilibrium for a creature with Average or worse manoeuvrability. This is, of course, assuming your DM takes common-sense physics into account.

Well, common sense be what it may be, Reverse Gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reverseGravity.htm) explicitly states "Creatures who can fly or levitate can keep themselves from falling." I suppose you could argue that if the creature is undertaking vertical movement at the moment it could work, but ehh...

[Fouredged Sword]

Circle Magic heighten a level 9 wish spell into being level 99 with leadership. Scribe it into a scroll.
Now have your cohort, a factotum, read that scroll useing his ability to make the effect bypass SR.
Have him wish the oponent dead.

Lets see the foe make a DC 100+ save vs death from across the multiverse, not quite imposible to stop, but close.

[Eloel]

Circle Magic heighten a level 9 wish spell into being level 99 with leadership. Scribe it into a scroll.
Now have your cohort, a factotum, read that scroll useing his ability to make the effect bypass SR.
Have him wish the oponent dead.

Lets see the foe make a DC 100+ save vs death from across the multiverse, not quite imposible to stop, but close.

There's, at best, a 5% chance that any enemy will survive that.

Also, Rod-Maximize a Time Stop. Rod-Widen a Gate (no save, no SR) above enemy. Reverse Gravity (no save, no SR). Telekinetic Sphere (no save, no SR for creatures).
Bye bye!

[Fouredged Sword]

Do it three or four times from a high speed demiplane. That will give you around .0125% chance of survival. Or give him luck feats to make the oponent reroll that nat 20.

[Blisstake]

There's, at best, a 5% chance that any enemy will survive that.

Also, Rod-Maximize a Time Stop. Rod-Widen a Gate (no save, no SR) above enemy. Reverse Gravity (no save, no SR). Telekinetic Sphere (no save, no SR for creatures).
Bye bye!

What if the enemy just plane shifts right back out?

[Fouredged Sword]

Celarity / plane shift makes that kinda easy to sidestep, with less resorce expendeture than you put into doign it. An attack should at least make your foe expend more resorces to avoid the hit than you used to hit them.

[Eurus]

It's a little vague on if Forcecage can survive an Antimagic Field like a Wall of Force would, but if it does, that's a pretty fair combo.

[Eldariel]

It's a little vague on if Forcecage can survive an Antimagic Field like a Wall of Force would, but if it does, that's a pretty fair combo.

Cage-form Forcecage + Mastery of Shaped Widened AMF centered on you (go within 20' of the cage so it radiates inside) and any persistent damage effect like Acid Fog does pretty well since most immunities are magic-based and thus negated.

[Divide by Zero]

Cage-form Forcecage + Mastery of Shaped Widened AMF centered on you (go within 20' of the cage so it radiates inside) and any persistent damage effect like Acid Fog does pretty well since most immunities are magic-based and thus negated.

Wouldn't you also need some way of making your spell work in the AMF, then?

[Eldariel]

Wouldn't you also need some way of making your spell work in the AMF, then?

Choose a non-magical persistent effect *shrug*

[Avalon2099]

Also, Rod-Maximize a Time Stop. Rod-Widen a Gate (no save, no SR) above enemy. Reverse Gravity (no save, no SR). Telekinetic Sphere (no save, no SR for creatures).

How does that instant kill something? What plane are you sending it too? If it's a caster wouldn't they have time to planeshift?

[Eldest]

To the positive or negative plane, bad things happen at both those places if you stay there too long, and maybe add the forcecage+dimention-lock to that so they can't leave the plane.
So... Time stop, gate, reverse gravity, they fall up, then use celebrity, time stop again, then use the forcecage and d-lock.
Anything making that illegal? It's pretty complex but I can't think of anything to break out, especialy if you do the shaped antimagic feild somebody suggested. So basicaly I rolled everyones idea into one.

[arguskos]

Anything making that illegal?
In this situation, yeah. Celerity isn't SRD. :smalltongue: Normally? Nah, it's fair.

[Eldest]

Whoops. Could you make the forcecage out of walls of force?

[AmberVael]

For unstoppable damage, it's hard to beat Hail of Stone from Spell Compendium. Area (so no immunity to targeted stuff, a la swarms), no SR, no save, untyped spell damage (so no energy resistances or DR), instantaneous conjuration (so even AMF doesn't stop it). It has just three problems: high casting time (1 round), expensive material component (cost 25 gp), and low damage cap (5d4 maximum).

To really get good damage out of this, you need Arcane Thesis, several metamagic feats, and (Greater) Arcane Fusion. If you get it all put together right, though, I'm pretty sure it's enough to one-shot anything in the Monster Manual that isn't outright immune to damage. The only thing that can block it besides contingencies and immediate actions is Globe of Invulnerability, and if you get enough Heighten on it that won't work either.

Edit: Whoops, just saw the SRD-only restriction. Sorry, that really puts a crimp in things. I can't think of anything from the SRD that could approach Hail of Stone.

For your viewing pleasure, I present:
Swarm of Crystals. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm)
SRD area attack with no SR (AND it's an instantaneous creation power, so you can even fire it into antimagic and be fine), no save, and slashing damage (so a pretty difficult damage type to be immune to, at least).
It does not have the action problem, nor does it require a material component, and you can boost its total damage up due to its augment.
Overchannel, toss on a Twin Power and call it a day.

The one drawback it has is a very short range. Given all its other benefits though, Swarm of Crystals is certainly one of my favorite powers of all time.

Edit: Granted, a wizard can't use it. So nyeh, all you fancy shmancy wizards! Psionics got you beat! :smalltongue:

[Urpriest]

For your viewing pleasure, I present:
Swarm of Crystals. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm)
SRD area attack with no SR (AND it's an instantaneous creation power, so you can even fire it into antimagic and be fine), no save, and slashing damage (so a pretty difficult damage type to be immune to, at least).
It does not have the action problem, nor does it require a material component, and you can boost its total damage up due to its augment.
Overchannel, toss on a Twin Power and call it a day.

The one drawback it has is a very short range. Given all its other benefits though, Swarm of Crystals is certainly one of my favorite powers of all time.

Edit: Granted, a wizard can't use it. So nyeh, all you fancy shmancy wizards! Psionics got you beat! :smalltongue:

Hmm...couldn't a sufficiently obnoxious Wizard get access via Gate, though? Just find some high level Psion outsider to call in.

[AmberVael]

Maybe. I don't know of any standard monsters that can use Swarm of Crystals, but if you knew a specific one, sure.

Hmm... with that kind of idea in mind though, maybe you could use Mental Pinnacle? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm)
It would give you the appropriate manifester level, though you'd need to sort out a method of getting Swarm of Crystals on your list. It doesn't look like your list has to be limited to those noted, so if you had something along the lines of Expanded Knowledge... not sure it's possible, but it's a thought.

[dextercorvia]

So.. we're gonna chuck 10 levels of Heighten on these fireballs.


Circle Magic heighten a level 9 wish spell into being level 99 with leadership.

Does Circle Magic explicitly get you Heightening above 9th level?

[Urpriest]

Maybe. I don't know of any standard monsters that can use Swarm of Crystals, but if you knew a specific one, sure.

Hmm... with that kind of idea in mind though, maybe you could use Mental Pinnacle? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm)
It would give you the appropriate manifester level, though you'd need to sort out a method of getting Swarm of Crystals on your list. It doesn't look like your list has to be limited to those noted, so if you had something along the lines of Expanded Knowledge... not sure it's possible, but it's a thought.

It seems like it would be kind of hard to get Expanded Knowledge as a wizard though, given that most of the time you wouldn't be under Mental Pinnacle.

Also, you don't necessarily need a standard monster. A fiendish Psion 20 would potentially be perfectly acceptable, provided that you interpret the unique being clause in gate as referring to creatures that are the only member of their race like the demon princes, rather than as simply anyone specified. That interpretation of unique being does have precedent in earlier editions, and is my preferred interpretation, but I could easily see a DM rejecting it and I don't want to derail things by arguing about it.

[blazingshadow]

Does Circle Magic explicitly get you Heightening above 9th level?up until 20th level and you don't need to have the feat to heighten the spell

[Eurus]

It seems like it would be kind of hard to get Expanded Knowledge as a wizard though, given that most of the time you wouldn't be under Mental Pinnacle.

Also, you don't necessarily need a standard monster. A fiendish Psion 20 would potentially be perfectly acceptable, provided that you interpret the unique being clause in gate as referring to creatures that are the only member of their race like the demon princes, rather than as simply anyone specified. That interpretation of unique being does have precedent in earlier editions, and is my preferred interpretation, but I could easily see a DM rejecting it and I don't want to derail things by arguing about it.

I seem to recall a thread about Gating in 20th level monks to amuse yourself.