Scout/Monk or Scout/Swordsage

[joca4christ]

Hey all! First time poster, short time lurker here. Having trouble completely framing my character concept, and could use a little help.

First of, let me say that I'm not looking for optimization here. Just bouncing ideas off of ya to see what you think.

Wanting to play a hadozee scout who is an unarmed combatant. My first idea was a 1 scout/1 fighter/3 scout/1 monk taking the Spring Attack feat progression (have dodge as racial feat). My DM is allowing me to change Ascetic Rogue to fit scout so my monk and scout levels stack for unarmed strike progression.

All was good and well until I discovered ToB and the swordsage. Now, the idea of Shadow Jaunt and Child of Shadow, combined with the Scent stance and track really appeal to me as a cool scout idea.

I will lose the monk unarmed strike progression if I go that way, as well as possibly the Spring Attack feat progression. But I thought of doing a 4 scout/2 swordsage build. The DM is willing to let me use the unarmed strike variant of the swordsage.

So ....thoughts?

[Zonugal]

I'd personally go with the swordsage. While monk will have a slightly bigger unarmed damage dice (emphasis on slightly) I'd say that can hardly compare to the versatility in maneuvers and stances.

[joca4christ]

Do you think the loss of the Spring Attack will weaken him? And also, would you go straight swordsage on from level 6 or pepper in more scout?

[Major]

Loss of spring attack won't weaken him. Quite the opposite.

[Big Fau]

Swordsage, because Desert Wind is all over Skirmish. And because Standard Action Strikes means you can freely use your Move action.

Let's see:

Stone Dragon for Charging maneuvers (which trigger Skirmish).
Diamond Mind for Quicksilver Motion.
Tiger Claw for a few more Charging maneuvers and Sudden Leap.
Desert Wind for it's mobility-related Strikes.
Setting Sun for the throws, so you can Charge/Move around more freely.
Shadow Hand for Child of Shadows, which is really good for you (Teleport effects don't trigger Skirmish according to the FAQ).


Edit: See if your DM will give you a homebrew version of the Swift Hunter feat that stacks Scout and Swordsage levels for Skirmish.

[gorfnab]

One option that might work for you as well is the Barbarian variant City Brawler (DR349 p92). It gives you Improved Unarmed Strike and Two Weapon Fighting (Unarmed Strike only). You could also with this variant trade out the Rage for Whirling Frenzy (UA) and the Fast Movement for Pounce (CC) that way you can move and attack without needing Spring Attack. Even going 1 level of Barbarian with just the Pounce variant is awesome for melee Skirmish based builds.

[Doktor Per]

If you're going to take the monk, which most people will tell you not to (I won't), all you need is Travel Devotion. Now you can move as a swift action, do your flurry of skirmishing pimp hands and out again.

[Cerlis]

also there is a feat in that very ToB that i think will increase your unarmed die (unless unarmed swordsage is just swordsage with that built in.

[Lord_Gareth]

also there is a feat in that very ToB that i think will increase your unarmed die (unless unarmed swordsage is just swordsage with that built in.

Both, actually - Unarmed Swordsage and Superior Unarmed Strike. Snap Kick is another good option.

[Coidzor]

Definitely want Snap Kick, since I believe that's the maneuver + an unarmed strike whenever you use a maneuver with your unarmed strike, so that's at least two places skirmish dice can be added onto rather than at least one with standard action strikes.

And I'd recommend looking into any kind of Shape Soulmeld Incarnum feats that you can afford to grab in order to get some extra natural weapons in case you full attack. These are more useful to the build that would want a barbarian dip for pounce than one that mostly focuses on standard action strikes with swordsage.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'd personally go with the swordsage. While monk will have a slightly bigger unarmed damage dice (emphasis on slightly) I'd say that can hardly compare to the versatility in maneuvers and stances.

Wait, unarmed swordsage gets the monk unarmed strike progression, not the superior unarmed strike progression. :smallconfused:

[faceroll]

Loss of spring attack won't weaken him. Quite the opposite.

Actually, spring attack isn't that bad if you can prevent your enemy from charging, especially combined with a standard action maneuver. Say you have a move speed of 40. Spring attack in, throw your opponent with setting stun, move back.

[Big Fau]

Actually, spring attack isn't that bad if you can prevent your enemy from charging, especially combined with a standard action maneuver. Say you have a move speed of 40. Spring attack in, throw your opponent with setting stun, move back.

You cannot use a Strike when using Spring Attack. Spring Attack is a Full Round action that allows you to move and to take attacks, but does not allow you to use either the Attack Action or Standard Action.


Flyby Attack does, but that's Flyby Attack.

[Curmudgeon]

Spring Attack is a Full Round action that allows you to move and to take attacks, but does not allow you to use either the Attack Action or Standard Action.
You really need to check again. From the original version of the feat:
Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.
Also, Spring Attack isn't a full-round action; it's a split move action bracketing some form of attack action. That's discernible from the original feat, but explicitly stated in the "stealth errata" which is the Special Edition Player's Handbook 3.5:

SPRING ATTACK

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. The only remaining ambiguity is because "attack action" is a term that's used, but never defined, in D&D 3.5. It could be any of the following:

standard action attack
full attack action (only option containing the exact phrase)
attack of opportunity
bonus attack, such as granted by Improved Trip
Only the first two of these are possible with Spring Attack, and the full attack action requires a way of getting an extra move action in the round, such as from a Belt of Battle.

[joca4christ]

I greatly appreciate all the input.

Let me give ya a little more background on my idea, and see if it sheds some light onto why I'm see-sawing back and forth here.
The Monk Scout
In my original concept, with the scout/monk combo, I had only planned on taking two levels of monk. By doing so, I would have Improved Evasion by level seven. (DM ruled that evasion from both scout and monk would stack to cause this.) I had also planned on taking Improved Grapple for the 1st level of Monk's bonus feat, and Combat Reflexes for the 2nd level bonus feat. (My PC has a Dex Modifer of +6 with Racial bonuses and Gloves of Dex.)

At 9th level, I had planned on taking Superior Unarmed Strike, and purchasing the Monk's Belt, if I had enough to do so. With this feat, Ascetic Scout, and the belt, by level nine, I would be doing the unarmed damage of a 17th level monk. (Yes, this is by DM ruling.)

Other than the two levels of monk and the one level of fighter, I would be going straight scout. I would be using the scout bonus feats to take things like Hinder and Improvided Skirmish.

The concept behind my guy is that he scouts, checks out danger, and comes back. He's a skill monkey (get it, cuz he's a hadozee). He's a Technical Pacifist. Which is why I've opted for Improved Grapple instead of Stunning Fist.

Now the Swordsage Scout.

My main appeal with this concept is Child of Shadow, which I believe is the stance that grants concealment. I also really like the Shadow Jaunt concept, not for battle so much as for scouting. My DM even said he'd allow me to jaunt through a keyhole if I could see through it. Pretty cool, eh?

I also like combining the Scent stance from Tiger Claw with Track as a way of allowing me to be a hunter/searcher kind of guy as well.

The throws, like Mighty Throw and the like again appeal to the defensive quality of the character I have in mind.

The downside is that I wouldn't be able to have the Unarmed Strike of a 17th level monk by 9th level. And I'd be torn from running Swordsage on, missing out on cool free feats like the Hinder and Improved Skirmish I mentioned before.

Some background about our party that may help you guys advise more. We have a goliath samuria who will PrC into Kensei who is wielding a Large greatsword doing 3d6 worth of damage. We have drow warmage, and a human sorceress.

So again, help me settle the see-saw. Thanks!

[Fouredged Sword]

Swordsage is stricktly more powerful. The issue is that it favors a more concentrated on swordsage build.

I would rather point you to the swift feats in complete scondral. Look at all the other stiff you can mix. I would recomend a monk / scout / rogue. Take Asetic rouge, and Swift Rouge(I think that's the name). Now scout and Monk levels stack with rouge for many things. Trade the rouge evasion for ray reflection, as it is nice, then go for the pierce magical concelment / protection line.

Tone down that until it matches the OP level of your group.

[gorfnab]

Nevermind.

[joca4christ]

Nevermind.

Por que you say nevermind?

[Big Fau]

You really need to check again. From the original version of the feat:
Also, Spring Attack isn't a full-round action; it's a split move action bracketing some form of attack action. That's discernible from the original feat, but explicitly stated in the "stealth errata" which is the Special Edition Player's Handbook 3.5:
The only remaining ambiguity is because "attack action" is a term that's used, but never defined, in D&D 3.5. It could be any of the following:

standard action attack
full attack action (only option containing the exact phrase)
attack of opportunity
bonus attack, such as granted by Improved Trip
Only the first two of these are possible with Spring Attack, and the full attack action requires a way of getting an extra move action in the round, such as from a Belt of Battle.

Ok, so I was mistaken about the action types it used. But it still does not allow Strikes, since it specifies an Attack Action.


And there is a distinguishing element between Attack and Full Attack actions. Various feats have specified the latter, most of them post-XPH.

[Elric VIII]

One option that might work for you as well is the Barbarian variant City Brawler (DR349 p92). It gives you Improved Unarmed Strike and Two Weapon Fighting (Unarmed Strike only). You could also with this variant trade out the Rage for Whirling Frenzy (UA) and the Fast Movement for Pounce (CC) that way you can move and attack without needing Spring Attack. Even going 1 level of Barbarian with just the Pounce variant is awesome for melee Skirmish based builds.

Does City Brawler allow you to take the improvements of TWF as feats, or do you need to have Barb 6 and 11?



I would also put my vote in for Swordsage. You can take Desert Wind Dodge (add +1 fire damage and AC when you move 10ft in a turn, while wielding a DW weapon) once you have access to Desert Wind Maneuvers and then you can replace your normal Dodge with something else.

I also recommend taking at least 5 levels of Scout so that you can take Improved Skirmish (CompScoundrel) so you can make up for the Skirmish dice lost to SS levels.

[Curmudgeon]

Does City Brawler allow you to take the improvements of TWF as feats, or do you need to have Barb 6 and 11?
You need Barbarian 6 and 11. TWF doesn't work unarmed by the standard rules because it requires a second weapon and you've only got a single unarmed strike. The City Brawler ACF provides an exception, but strictly as a Barbarian class feature.

[joca4christ]

Thanks again playgrounders! Going scout/swordsage. Going with mostly defensive maneuvers and stances as Darsh is a bit of a technical pacifist. Using Hunter Sense for flavor...he is a monkey man after all. Makes sense that he can smell.

Staying away from TWF as he needs to stay mobile.