The Brawler (3.5 Base Class, PEACH)

[NeoSeraphi]

The Brawler


http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk266/ssj3blade/dragonfistDB.jpg
"I have seven different ways that I could kill you, right now." "Yeah, and I have one. It's called punching you in the face." An exchange between a wizard and a brawler

The Brawler is a typical street thug. He's not a monk. He doesn't learn his skill through discipline. He's not a swordsage. He doesn't learn how to channel fire through his fists or disappear in the shadows. He's just a guy who fights with his fist. Hand-to-hand is not that complicated, and it really shouldn't be treated as some kind of mystic art when Mike Tyson and Mohammed Ali could do it just by working on their form and exercising.

This class is meant to be Tier 4. It should be balanced against things like an optimized Fighter (no multiclassing), a Barbarian, or a Hexblade. It is a typical low-powered melee combat class that will face the same challenges all melee classes face, such as flying foes, invisible foes, etc. I believe these challenges are fun and exist to test a player's mind, so a class like mine shouldn't just hand out the answer.

Races: Any race can learn to punch people in the face. Some suck at it more than others. Elves suck at it because they're pansy-ass elves. Gnomes suck at it because they can't pretend to punch someone, they have to actually do it. Halflings suck at it because punching someone in the face immediately lets them know you're there.

Humans are alright at it. Like Rocky. That guy could punch people in the face. But being "adaptable" doesn't really help you when you're only doing one thing. You're not a wizard or a rocket science or a rogue. You punch people. In the face. You could do worse, but you could do a lot better too.

Half-Orcs and Orcs love punching people in the face. Sometimes they try to rip their eyes out while they do it too. As an homage to Gruumish or something. They're hardcore like that.

Dwarves can take a punch, which is important. Also, they have beards, which protect their faces.

Warforged are total punching machines. Plus they are literally heartless. So no face is safe from their wrath.

Abilities: Strength is important. If you punch someone in the face and they don't feel it, or they duck, you have wasted a punch. And that is a waste of your life. Constitution is also important. Brawlers aren't wimpy rogues who duck out of the way. They stand there and take it like a man. That's why Dex and Int aren't important. If you want to be a swashbuckler, be a swashbuckler. Get that weaksauce out of here. Charisma's okay, if you want to Intimidate someone. But really, what's more intimidating than the threat of being punched in the face? You're probably good with ranks and circumstance bonuses.

HD: d10
Class Skills: The Brawler has Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Jump, Profession, Swim, and Tumble as class skills.

Skill Points: 2+Int per level

The Brawler



Level
Base Attack<br>Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st
+1
+2
+0
+0
Punch Them in the Face, Deceptive Stance


2nd
+2
+3
+0
+0
Stunning Punch


3rd
+3
+3
+1
+1
Concentrated Punch


4th
+4
+4
+1
+1
Leaping Punch


5th
+5
+4
+1
+1
Defensive Punch, Right Back at Ya


6th
+6
+5
+2
+2
Devastating Punch


7th
+7
+5
+2
+2
Shattering Punch


8th
+8
+6
+2
+2
Angry Brawling, Knockback Punch (3/encounter)


9th
+9
+6
+3
+3
Counter Punch, Knockdown Punch (1/encounter)


10th
+10
+7
+3
+3
Deadly Knuckles, You Call That a Punch?


11th
+11
+7
+3
+3
Power Word: Punch


12th
+12
+8
+4
+4
One-Two Punch


13th
+13
+8
+4
+4
Wounding Punch


14th
+14
+9
+4
+4
Deceptive Punch


15th
+15
+9
+5
+5
Knock-Back Punch (At-will), Quantum Punch Defense


16th
+16
+10
+5
+5
Knock-Down Punch (At-will)


17th
+17
+10
+5
+5
Bone-Breaking Punch


18th
+18
+11
+6
+6
Jaw-Breaking Punch


19th
+19
+11
+6
+6
Weakening Punch


20th
+20
+12
+6
+6
Fists of the Gods



Class Features


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brawler is proficient with his unarmed strikes. He is considered to be ambidextrous for the purposes of his main and off hand, which means no matter which hand he's attacking with, he deals full damage. The brawler may not perform an unarmed strike with any part of his body other than a closed fist, however, he may treat each of his fists as a separate weapon and therefore use them to qualify for the Two-Weapon Fighting feats. The brawler is proficient no other weapons, and with no armor or shields.

Punch Them in the Face (Ex): A brawler is able to deal lethal damage with his unarmed strikes. He is considered to have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purposes of qualifications and prerequisites. The brawler must take the -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage with his fists, as he has trained them as a weapon only, unlike a monk. The brawler deals a base damage of 1d10 plus his Strength modifier on all unarmed strikes. His fists are treated as light and one-handed weapons, which ever is more beneficial to him in any situation. The brawler's unarmed damage increases by 1d10 for each five levels he gains (2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 10, etc) to a maximum of 5d10 at level 20. Additionally, starting at level 5 the brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. The brawler does not qualify as a monk and cannot receive "bonus damage" for items that would advance a monk's damage. He does not receive any benefit from the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, or any Prestige class that advances the unarmed damage of a monk. The monk and the brawler fight completely differently, and the discipline that monk classes utilize does not assist the brawler's power in any way.

The brawler may not make unarmed strikes if he is wearing armor or subject to medium or higher encumbrance.

The brawler's unarmed strikes are considered natural weapons. They are not manufactured weapons and cannot be enhanced by effects that do not enhance natural weapons.

Deceptive Stance (Ex): The brawler can bob and weave a lot faster than his direct approach stance leads others to believe. While the brawler is unarmored, unemcumbered, and not flat-footed, he adds his ranks in Bluff as a dodge bonus to his AC, to a maximum of his Brawler class level.

Stunning Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists are devastating weapons. When he punches someone in the face, they stay punched in the face. If the brawler successfully hits with an unarmed strike, he may force the target to make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 his class level+ his Strength modifier) or be Stunned for 1 round. The brawler may use this ability at will, but only once per round. Stunning Punch does not qualify for, nor can power Stunning Fist feats or prestige class abilities.

Concentrated Punch (Ex): The brawler does not hide behind armor, nor does he attempt to dodge incoming blows. This brutal frontal assault gives the brawler a deadly advantage in combat. As a free action, but only once per round during his turn, the brawler may make a Concentration check. He subtracts the result from his AC and adds it as an insight bonus to his attack rolls for the round. This penalty and bonus last until the beginning of his next turn.

Leaping Punch (Ex): Few things are scarier than a guy charging at you with his fist up. A guy charging at you with his fists up and then leaping into the air and curbstomping your face into the dirt is one of those things. When a brawler charges an enemy, he can make a DC 20 Jump Check. If he succeeds, he leaps into the air (ignoring difficult terrain) and comes crashing down on his enemy. He deals double damage with his unarmed strike and his opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+damage dealt) or fall prone in the brawler's square. Additionally, if the brawler's unarmed strike was a Stunning Punch, its DC increases by 2 as long as the Jump check was successful. If the brawler fails his Jump check, he does not leap into the air and deals no extra damage.

Defensive Punch (Ex): A brawler knows when the last hit is coming, and he knows he needs to get out of the way. A brawler who has taken an amount of damage (lethal, nonlethal, or a combination of the two) equal to half of his maximum HP or more may make a Defensive Punch. As a full-round action, the brawler may make an attack roll, and take a penalty on the attack roll, up to his Base Attack Bonus. He receives the penalty as an insight bonus to his AC for the round, whether his punch hit or not. The brawler may not use this ability during the same turn as Concentrated Punch, nor may he use it while raging, frenzying, or while using the Angry Brawling ability.

Right Back At Ya (Ex): You know what they say: if you can't handle the heat, you should probably get very far away very quickly before a brawler sees you shooting at him from a distance like a little pansy. Starting at level 5 a brawler can use a free action to swat a projectile out of the air that's aimed at him. This requires an opposed attack against the projectile's initial attack roll. If he succeeds, the projectile is neutralized. However, if he then spends an immediate action he can redirect the projectile back at its original launcher. This is a ranged attack roll, but it uses his Strength instead of his Dexterity. There are no range increment penalties for this attack.

At level 5 this can only be used on nonmagical ammunition and thrown weapons, and the brawler may only do it up to once per round.. At level 10 a brawler can hit back magical ammunition and thrown weapons as well as magical attacks that require attack rolls, such as rays, and the brawler may do it up to twice per round. Finally, at level 15 this can be used against siege weapons, such as a ballista bolt or a cannonball, and the brawler may do it up to three times per round.

Devastating Punch (Ex): A brawler doesn't thrown out a bunch of little hits and hope the target goes down. He stands his ground and throws a single, meaningful punch that flattens his opponent's face. As a full-round action, the brawler may make a single attack roll at his highest attack bonus. If it hits, he treats it as if he threatened a critical. (If he actually threatened a critical with his attack roll, he instead automatically confirms it). Additionally, if the brawler makes a Stunning Punch with this ability, he increases the DC for it by 2.

Shattering Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists, they are made of steel. Or adamantine, as the case may be. The brawler's fists ignore hardness during Sunder attempts.

Angry Brawling (Ex): Because the brawler lacks discipline, his fists can deliver deadly blows that the monk can't even dream of. The brawler gains the rage ability as a barbarian of 1st level, but he can use it once per encounter. He never gains any additional uses of it, or increased stat bonuses. It does not count as rage for the purpose of feats, qualifications, or stacking with actual barbarian levels. The brawler may rage and Angry Brawl at the same time, if he has both of the abilities.

Knock-Back Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists carry weight with them. Whenever the brawler deals at least 10 damage with an unarmed strike, the creature he struck moves back 5 feet for each 10 points of damage he dealt with the single strike. If the brawler is making more than one attack this round, he may choose to have only the last punch that hits push them back. The brawler may use this ability up to 3 times per encounter at level 8. At level 15, he may use this ability at-will.

Counter Punch (Ex): Hey, that jerk just hit you with his sword! You should punch him in the face! Yeah, like that!...Is he still breathing? No? Good. By concentrating completely, the brawler leaves himself completely defenseless, but gains immense power. The brawler may only use the Counter Punch ability when he is hit by a melee attack by a foe within range of his unarmed strike while his AC is no higher than 0. He may make a single unarmed strike against the target, and may use any of his full-round punch techniques to do it. This ability consumes one of the brawler's attacks of opportunity for the round.

Knock-Down Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists push weaker foes down with ease. When the brawler deals at least 10 damage with a single unarmed strike, he may make a Trip attempt as a free action against that creature without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. For each 10 points of damage he dealt, the brawler is treated as one Size category larger than he is for this Trip Attempt (To a maximum of Colossal+, see the Draconomicon). If the brawler has the Improved Trip feat, he gets his automatic attack if the Trip is successful. A brawler may use this ability once per encounter at level 9. At level 16, he may use this ability at will. A brawler may not use Knock-Down Punch and Knockback Punch in the same round.

Deadly Knuckles (Ex): There's something to be said about training for 10 levels with your own body as a weapon. And that is, you get better at it. The brawler's critical multiplier for his unarmed strikes increases to x3.

You Call That a Punch? (Ex): The brawler gets cut, but he doesn't bleed. He takes a spear in his gut and just starts laughing. He's a monster who can't be stopped by swords alone. Starting at 10th level, the brawler gains the regeneration ability. His form of regeneration only applies to damage from physical sources, and is overcome by all forces of magical energy (but not magic weapons). He heals a number of nonlethal hit points of damage per round equal to his Constitution modifier. Additionally, because his anatomy has become almost completely impenetrable by normal weapons, a creature who attempts a Sneak Attack against the brawler must make a character level check. The DC is the brawler's character level +11. If the attacker succeeds, he deals Sneak Attack damage as nonlethal damage, even though Sneak Attack damage cannot be nonlethal unless the weapon deals nonlethal damage. If the attacker fails the check, its weapon deals normal nonlethal weapon damage with no bonus Sneak Attack damage. (This defense applies even if the brawler is unaware of the attack, even if he is unconscious or helpless.)

Power Word: Punch (Ex): The harder you hit them, the easier it becomes to hit them. As a full-round action, a brawler may target a creature within reach for a single melee attack with his unarmed strike. If that creature's hit points are less than 101, the brawler automatically hits them with his unarmed strike.

One-Two Punch (Ex): The brawler has mastered the classic follow-up punch. As a standard action, the brawler may make two melee attacks with his unarmed strike against the same foe. The first at his highest attack bonus, the second with a -5 penalty.

Wounding Punch (Su): The brawler's fists leave scars that continue to bleed. Both of the brawler's fists gain the wounding property.

Deceptive Punch (Ex): The brawler's attacks are usually too angular for a creature to miss spotting them, but against particularly stupid creatures, the brawler can attempt some finesse and dish out some extra damage. If the brawler successfully uses the Feint in Combat action, he deals double damage with his first attack roll against the creature he feinted against with his next unarmed strike (as long as the creature is still flat-footed when he makes it).

Quantum Punch Defense (Ex): When you're up against an expert brawler you're either already punched or you're about to be punched. Really the only question is when. Starting at level 15, a brawler's enemies are simultaneously both punched and not punched, and only the brawler can collapse this waveform (if you know what I mean). Whenever a brawler is attacked in melee combat he can activate this ability as an immediate action to declare that he actually punched that guy earlier in the fight. He can make a full attack against them right now, and if that kills them the brawler is safe from the initiating attack roll.

Bone-Breaking Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists shatter nerves and break bones. If the brawler successfully Stuns a Stunned creature with his Stunning Punch (the creature failed two saving throws in a row), the creature becomes paralyzed for 5 rounds instead (no save).

Jaw-Breaking Punch (Ex): The brawler knows that even though a wizard can take a few punches by now, he still has a glass jaw. As a full round action, the brawler may make a single unarmed strike attack at his highest attack bonus. If he hits, the creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+damage dealt) or have its jaw broken. The creature loses the ability to speak, and all spells with verbal components automatically fail, until the creature receives magical healing equal to the full amount of damage the brawler's Jaw-Breaking Punch dealt.

Weakening Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists leave natural defenses shattered in his wake. Any creature who takes at least 10 points of damage from the brawler's unarmed strike loses 10 points of energy resistance, DR, or natural armor (chosen by the brawler after this ability is confirmed) for 1d4 rounds. This can reduce any of these values to 0, but not less than 0, and cannot affect supernatural Damage Reduction (but can affect extraordinary Damage Reduction). A consecutive hit does not stack, but resets the duration.

Fists of the Gods (Ex): What, you want a capstone? You spent 20 levels learning how to punch things! You just punch things really really well! The brawler's fists ignore all forms of damage reduction and resolve as melee touch attacks instead of normal melee attacks. They are also treated as objects of force and can Sunder force objects and hit incorporeal creatures.

[Lappy9000]

This is great :smallbiggrin:

Could you do me a favor and un-spoiler the class features? Their pretty much the meat of any class so they are meant to be seen.

I seem to have lost all sense of balance in 3.5 lately (too much 'brewing for different systems), so I'll just say I really like this class a whole freaking lot.

[NeoSeraphi]

This is great :smallbiggrin:

Could you do me a favor and un-spoiler the class features? Their pretty much the meat of any class so they are meant to be seen.

I seem to have lost all sense of balance in 3.5 lately (too much 'brewing for different systems), so I'll just say I really like this class a whole freaking lot.

Favor dealt!

Please, be more specific. What do you like about the class?

[Kellus]

Well, I like that it takes the most boring combat style in the game and gives it a ton of different dynamic options for combat. That being said, there's still a ton of stuff he can't deal with just because of the limitations of his shtick. In a game where a lot of characters past 5th level can fly, punching people in the face is a somewhat limited career choice. There's also not a lot to do as the character outside of combat, and while you can say that fits the archetype it's also pretty boring for the player in those segments of the game.

But for pure melee, I think this is one of the best hand-to-hand classes I've ever seen. :smallsmile:

[Lappy9000]

Favor dealt!

Please, be more specific. What do you like about the class?Thank you!

Mostly the feel of the class. Makes fighting very flavorful. That said, Kellus makes a good point. You have quite a few de-buffing abilities later on. Maybe you could port some of those as weaker versions earlier on in the class. Some kind of heightened movement might work too (jumping, running, parkour, flying) could also help.

Don't forget the iterative attacks in the BAB +6/+1 and all that. And you've got that <br> in the Base Attack Bonus area.

[NeoSeraphi]

Eh, I don't feel like coding the iterative attacks. Everyone knows how Full BAB works.

The class itself is meant to be high Tier 4. Strong combat, not good at anything else. This is literally supposed to be someone who was raised on the streets and learned how to defend himself. He only thinks about the fight. It's supposed to replace the monk, which I think it does quite well, even though the monk has many other abilities and skills.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Overall I like it. It's a solid but not overpowered melee brute. It will have the typical problems dealing with foes with lots of advanced defense/mobility abilities, but most melee classes do.

I am, however, a bit concerned about the near-complete lack of defensive abilities. With no armor, no monk-like AC bonus, and a class feature that reduces AC (and another that requires AC 0 to activate!) you are looking at getting hit a lot, and you have nothing that mitigates it. I'd probably say to add some DR somewhere, or refreshing temporary hit points, or something to mitigate power attacks/full attacks, or...something. Otherwise these guys are very likely to go down before they can throw their first punch.

Personally, I'm also a bit leery of the capstone "every attack is a touch attack" clause. I'm not saying it's strictly too powerful for a 20th level ability...I just think those sorts of abilities shouldn't exist in general (Wraithstrike is pretty much the only spell I consider hard-banned in my games).

I might suggest turning the full-round punches into standard-action. It still only lets you make one attack, but gives you some mobility, something melee classes generally need.

Only other thing is I'm not quite sure about Power Word: Punch at 11th level. It may still be low enough that most foes will have less than 101 hit points by default.

I think that's it from me. Cool class!

[Galileo]

I have to agree with Kellus. Seems like it should have some utility abilities, maybe the ability to punch footholds into cliff faces or disguise people by punching them until their face is unrecognisable.

Also, here's a possible way to deal with the standard Achilles' Heel of melee classes:

Flying Punch: You have learnt how to punch so hard, your fist takes your body along for the ride. As a full round action, you may charge any opponent within double your land speed, including airborne opponents. You are treated as having a fly speed equal to your base land speed for this movement. On your next turn, you may remain airborne by using Flying Punch again.

Y'know, I didn't start this with Sonic in mind, but now I look at it...

[NeoSeraphi]

Overall I like it. It's a solid but not overpowered melee brute. It will have the typical problems dealing with foes with lots of advanced defense/mobility abilities, but most melee classes do.

I am, however, a bit concerned about the near-complete lack of defensive abilities. With no armor, no monk-like AC bonus, and a class feature that reduces AC (and another that requires AC 0 to activate!) you are looking at getting hit a lot, and you have nothing that mitigates it. I'd probably say to add some DR somewhere, or refreshing temporary hit points, or something to mitigate power attacks/full attacks, or...something. Otherwise these guys are very likely to go down before they can throw their first punch.

Personally, I'm also a bit leery of the capstone "every attack is a touch attack" clause. I'm not saying it's strictly too powerful for a 20th level ability...I just think those sorts of abilities shouldn't exist in general (Wraithstrike is pretty much the only spell I consider hard-banned in my games).

I might suggest turning the full-round punches into standard-action. It still only lets you make one attack, but gives you some mobility, something melee classes generally need.

Only other thing is I'm not quite sure about Power Word: Punch at 11th level. It may still be low enough that most foes will have less than 101 hit points by default.

I think that's it from me. Cool class!

The class itself is designed like a typical Tier 4 class, it has a glaring weakness in exchange for mediocre power. AC itself is a broken mechanic that scales terribly and in the end only protects you maybe half the time. I don't agree with it and I never have. At level 20, people protect themselves via invisibility, miss chance, and flight, along with high HP. A 20th level fighter may have as much as 45 AC (give or take) in all that armor, and he's still getting hit half the time. A barbarian (which is Tier 4, iirc) has d12 hit dice, and can gain an extra 8 Con, so that's 80 more hit points, and have DR 5/- but still. Pure melee classes rely on clerics and magic items. That's always how it's been, and very few pure melee classes ever mitigate it.

Same with the mobility. The class itself is not a striker or a scout, it's a stand and fight one-on-one type of class. Putting all your Strength into one attack and hoping that it will stun, knock prone, or push back the enemy so they won't hit you next turn.

The capstone could probably use some work, but I would need to think about how to fix it? Any suggestions?

Power Word: Punch is mostly there for the lolz, seriously, as soon as I came up with the idea I was snickering the whole time I typed it (The entire class was a bit of a laugh to make, actually). I put it at level 11 because that's when the brawler gets his third iterative attack. So trading 3 potential hits (And with a +14 + Con bonus to Concentration checks, you could easily make that third attack hit) for a single guaranteed strike as a full attack seems fair to me. Just when you really want to finish someone off, or when they have mirror image or something up as a final defense.

[Dryad]

While I love the idea of the class, I do think you're giving (real, experienced) thugs too little credit (or too much, depending on how you look at it. :P)

I agree that the class should have something in terms of defenses. While true that heavy armour and such eventually might lead up to a 50% chance of not getting hit, that is, I'm afraid, fully intentional and balanced in terms of d20, where the aim is nearly always to balance around that 10+=success. That said, a 50% chance if completely mitigating an attack is not to be sneezed at.

Then there is the problem, as I perceive it, of the insane damage dealt by the punch in the face. It starts at 1d10+full str, can be dual-wielded easily, and ends at what; 5d10+str damage per attack, for five attacks per round?
If they all hit (and they ignore damage reduction, armour and hardness, so they probably will hit, and for full damage, too) that is an average of 100 damage (if the average of a d10 is 5) before any bonusses from strength and/or enchantments are calculated. Actually, it's pretty easy to increase the damage to 1d12/2d6 or even 3d6 per original damage die by picking the right feats, and then there's Snap Kick to consider.

It also seems to have a brilliant synergy with Vow of Poverty because, let's face it, you're not proficient with ánything, and anyway, gear is for pansies if you can just punch people in the face. :P Not taking Vow of Poverty at first level (if human) would be a mistake, because you can prove to the world that gear is for pansies, right?

The way I see it, the lack of utility this class has in terms of survivability and mobility do not warrant the extreme amounts of damage you could deal with it. While balanced on a point-by-point basis, the overall effect is all or nothing: Win because of huge numbers, or lose because of incompetence. This makes the class simultaneously far, far too powerful, as well as far too weak. (Another thing to consider is that, with a proper group line-up consisting of at least one support caster, the class' weaknesses soon even out. While at the cost of the full potential of the support caster, she would have thrown the buffs anyway, so there's little difference, there.)

Don't get me wrong; I really love the class itself. But there are some serious balance problems, and quite frankly, putting one very powerful ability opposite to one (serious) weakness does not exactly help balance the class.
Will this lead to an overall imbalance in the party? Possibly not, though the fighter and barbarian would both wish they were brawlers when they see the numbers fly, and the monk might hide away in a corner and cry a little. But the class does have internal balance issues. Two extremes does not a middle make. :smalltongue:

[Kellus]

I've gotta throw out there that 5d10 bonus damage is not that different from 10d6 sneak attack damage, and a rogue with TWF can easily get a massive number of attacks as well. Pure numbers at high levels mean almost nothing, and I have no problems with the brawler being able to deal a lot of damage. Similarly I don't care about the 20th level capstone because it's 20th level. Nobody plays there anyway and when you consider some of the stuff other characters can do at that point it really doesn't matter. My problem with the class is the lack of interesting options aside from the many different ways to punch people leading up to that point.

[NeoSeraphi]

While I love the idea of the class, I do think you're giving (real, experienced) thugs too little credit (or too much, depending on how you look at it. :P)

I agree that the class should have something in terms of defenses. While true that heavy armour and such eventually might lead up to a 50% chance of not getting hit, that is, I'm afraid, fully intentional and balanced in terms of d20, where the aim is nearly always to balance around that 10+=success. That said, a 50% chance if completely mitigating an attack is not to be sneezed at.

Then there is the problem, as I perceive it, of the insane damage dealt by the punch in the face. It starts at 1d10+full str, can be dual-wielded easily, and ends at what; 5d10+str damage per attack, for five attacks per round?
If they all hit (and they ignore damage reduction, armour and hardness, so they probably will hit, and for full damage, too) that is an average of 100 damage (if the average of a d10 is 5) before any bonusses from strength and/or enchantments are calculated. Actually, it's pretty easy to increase the damage to 1d12/2d6 or even 3d6 per original damage die by picking the right feats, and then there's Snap Kick to consider.

It also seems to have a brilliant synergy with Vow of Poverty because, let's face it, you're not proficient with ánything, and anyway, gear is for pansies if you can just punch people in the face. :P Not taking Vow of Poverty at first level (if human) would be a mistake, because you can prove to the world that gear is for pansies, right?

The way I see it, the lack of utility this class has in terms of survivability and mobility do not warrant the extreme amounts of damage you could deal with it. While balanced on a point-by-point basis, the overall effect is all or nothing: Win because of huge numbers, or lose because of incompetence. This makes the class simultaneously far, far too powerful, as well as far too weak. (Another thing to consider is that, with a proper group line-up consisting of at least one support caster, the class' weaknesses soon even out. While at the cost of the full potential of the support caster, she would have thrown the buffs anyway, so there's little difference, there.)

Don't get me wrong; I really love the class itself. But there are some serious balance problems, and quite frankly, putting one very powerful ability opposite to one (serious) weakness does not exactly help balance the class.
Will this lead to an overall imbalance in the party? Possibly not, though the fighter and barbarian would both wish they were brawlers when they see the numbers fly, and the monk might hide away in a corner and cry a little. But the class does have internal balance issues. Two extremes does not a middle make. :smalltongue:

Two-Weapon Fighting is a trap for this class. There is absolutely no reason for your Dexterity score to be that high. You want your AC to be 0 for Counter Punch, it WILL be 0 because of Concentration Punch, and you can't wear armor so having the extra +3 or +4 to AC doesn't help at all past level 3 or so. If you want to put that high of a score into your Dexterity (19 if you want Greater Two-Weapon Fighting) you are going to seriously gimp your Strength and Constitution with very little benefit received. Plus, you're spending precious feats that you could be spending attempting to shore up this class's survivability or defenses on attacking, which the class itself is already very good at. The option is there, but it is a very, very poor option.

Indeed, Vow of Poverty does help this class out quite a bit. Then again, Vow of Poverty has always helped monks and druids out a bit, at least before Wilding Clasps. Everyone argues that the monk shouldn't take Vow because he can't wear things like Monk's Belt and Necklace of Natural and Fanged Ring, etc etc, but that's just because everyone wants that 2d10 base damage without taking the full 20 levels of monk. It was a lazy idea and a cop out that WotC created and everyone took it to become the new balance point. 11 levels of monk is all that's needed now, because you have a Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike. Items should not replace a character's growth so much. The Brawler is as dependent on items as a barbarian who doesn't use a weapon or armor, eg, he needs them for flight, invisibility, healing, and other uses. Plus, if you DO want AC, he needs them for rings and necklaces, etc. But yes, VoP can help you out here. I don't see why that's a problem. I'm not going to change the balance of my class because there exists a feat that can fix it. If a character wants to take VoP and roleplay being an ascetic, I say good for him.

The 5d10 damage only comes into play if the character takes all 20 levels of brawler. Because the other melee classes tend to prestige out as early as 6th and as late as 11th (frenzied berserker, exotic weapon master, sacred fist, etc) they end up with their own ridiculous amounts of damage. Uber chargers get 1d12+90+3* their ridiculously high Strength mod on a full attack at the end of a charge. Unarmed warriors deal high dice damage. The average amount of damage a brawler will deal is 27+Strength modifier. The brawler cannot enhance his own fists without magic that the class doesn't provide him.

Alright, if someone wants to suggest how to give this character defenses while keeping his AC at 0, I'm all ears. Damage Reduction doesn't really make sense, and it's already for the barbarian, so how can the brawler protect himself (other than Defensive Punch?)


My problem with the class is the lack of interesting options aside from the many different ways to punch people leading up to that point

I don't understand this. The Dragonfire Adept breathes fire every round. She learns a number of invocations to change the way she breathes fire, but it's still just breathing fire. Every round.

The barbarian has rage. That's it. He has rage, damage reduction, trap sense and uncanny dodge. No attack options or other abilities, period.

The monk has flurry of blows. He can flurry with a bunch of different weapons, or he can fall without hurting himself, or he can heal himself, or he can hit someone so hard they die (sometimes).

The paladin can smite evil. He gets a horse. He detects evil and he removes disease. No other attack options.

The hexblade can curse. He can hit people with his sword, and he can curse.

What class are you basing this "Lack of interesting attack options" on anyway?

[NeoSeraphi]

Added Deceptive Stance, which allows the brawler to add his ranks in the Bluff skill to his AC. That way, if you don't want to use Counter Punch or Concentrated Punch, you can still dodge.

[Kellus]

I don't understand this. The Dragonfire Adept breathes fire every round. She learns a number of invocations to change the way she breathes fire, but it's still just breathing fire. Every round.

The barbarian has rage. That's it. He has rage, damage reduction, trap sense and uncanny dodge. No attack options or other abilities, period.

The monk has flurry of blows. He can flurry with a bunch of different weapons, or he can fall without hurting himself, or he can heal himself, or he can hit someone so hard they die (sometimes).

The paladin can smite evil. He gets a horse. He detects evil and he removes disease. No other attack options.

The hexblade can curse. He can hit people with his sword, and he can curse.

What class are you basing this "Lack of interesting attack options" on anyway?

The barbarian, monk, paladin, and hexblade are all incredibly boring classes, which is why everybody is always trying to write fixes for them. The dragonfire adept is actually an interesting case, because while it's true that she's a one-trick pony in battle, outside of combat she has actual things to do. She's got general purpose invocations that include things like large bonuses to skills, utility SLAs at will like gust of wind, and so on. She's got a life outside of breathing fire thanks to her invocations. The designers were smart enough on that one to split up the invocations that modify your breath weapon form the general purpose invocations so that all DFAs would have at least a small bag of tricks to pull from.

I find it curious that you wrote the class specifically to be good at one part of the game and nothing else. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the things this class can do, but normally the one-trick pony is an example of bad design, not good. It's not generally something you would try to recreate on purpose.

[NeoSeraphi]

The barbarian, monk, paladin, and hexblade are all incredibly boring classes, which is why everybody is always trying to write fixes for them. The dragonfire adept is actually an interesting case, because while it's true that she's a one-trick pony in battle, outside of combat she has actual things to do. She's got general purpose invocations that include things like large bonuses to skills, utility SLAs at will like gust of wind, and so on. She's got a life outside of breathing fire thanks to her invocations. The designers were smart enough on that one to split up the invocations that modify your breath weapon form the general purpose invocations so that all DFAs would have at least a small bag of tricks to pull from.

I find it curious that you wrote the class specifically to be good at one part of the game and nothing else. Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of the things this class can do, but normally the one-trick pony is an example of bad design, not good. It's not generally something you would try to recreate on purpose.

Ah, that's what you meant. Actually, the class started as a joke. I was like, "Why does the monk have to have all these stupid flavorful abilities? Why can't I just punch someone in the face?"

So that was my reason for the naming conventions and the repetitive word choices, because half of the reason I wrote the class was as a joke. When I realized after I finished that I actually liked the class, I decided to try and aim for making it Tier 4 and playable alongside weaker classes. I agree that the class itself is flawed and a bit boring because it's simplistic, but I actually really like the simplicity.

I appreciate your criticism, but could you perhaps direct it towards my other problem? That is, the lack of defensive features? Do you think Deceptive Stance is enough, or do you have any suggestions?

[Kellus]

Ah, that's what you meant. Actually, the class started as a joke. I was like, "Why does the monk have to have all these stupid flavorful abilities? Why can't I just punch someone in the face?"

So that was my reason for the naming conventions and the repetitive word choices, because half of the reason I wrote the class was as a joke. When I realized after I finished that I actually liked the class, I decided to try and aim for making it Tier 4 and playable alongside weaker classes. I agree that the class itself is flawed and a bit boring because it's simplistic, but I actually really like the simplicity.

I appreciate your criticism, but could you perhaps direct it towards my other problem? That is, the lack of defensive features? Do you think Deceptive Stance is enough, or do you have any suggestions?

Okay, well, if that's what you're aiming for I can understand that. :smallsmile:

For defense, I think Deceptive Stance is the wrong way to go. The whole point of the class is to wade into melee defenseless and beat the crap out of people. Here's a few defensive powers that seem to fit with the theme.

Right Back At Ya (Ex): You know what they say: if you can't handle the heat, you should probably get very far away very quickly before a brawler sees you shooting at him from a distance like a little pansy. Starting at level X a brawler can use a free action to swat a projectile out of the air that's aimed at him. This requires an opposed attack against the projectile's initial attack roll. If he succeeds, the projectile is neutralized. However, if he then spends an immediate action he can redirect the projectile back at its original launcher. This is a ranged attack roll, but it uses his Strength instead of his Dexterity. There are no range increment penalties for this attack.

At level X this can only be used on nonmagical ammunition and thrown weapons. At level X+X a brawler can hit back magical ammunition and thrown weapons as well as magical attacks that require attack rolls, such as rays. Finally, at level X+X+X this can be used against siege weapons, such as a ballista bolt or a cannonball.

[hr]

And a higher level version of counter punch, perhaps?

Quantum Punch Defense (Ex): When you're up against an expert brawler you're either already punched or you're about to be punched. Really the only question is when. Starting at level X, a brawler's enemies are simultaneously both punched and not punched, and only the brawler can collapse this waveform (if you know what I mean). Whenever a brawler is attacked in melee combat he can activate this ability as an immediate action to declare that he actually punched that guy earlier in the fight. He can make a full attack against them right now, and if that kills them the brawler is safe from the initiating attack roll.

[NeoSeraphi]

Okay, well, if that's what you're aiming for I can understand that. :smallsmile:

For defense, I think Deceptive Stance is the wrong way to go. The whole point of the class is to wade into melee defenseless and beat the crap out of people. Here's a few defensive powers that seem to fit with the theme.

Right Back At Ya (Ex): You know what they say: if you can't handle the heat, you should probably get very far away very quickly before a brawler sees you shooting at him from a distance like a little pansy. Starting at level X a brawler can use a free action to swat a projectile out of the air that's aimed at him. This requires an opposed attack against the projectile's initial attack roll. If he succeeds, the projectile is neutralized. However, if he then spends an immediate action he can redirect the projectile back at its original launcher. This is a ranged attack roll, but it uses his Strength instead of his Dexterity. There are no range increment penalties for this attack.

At level X this can only be used on nonmagical ammunition and thrown weapons. At level X+X a brawler can hit back magical ammunition and thrown weapons as well as magical attacks that require attack rolls, such as rays. Finally, at level X+X+X this can be used against siege weapons, such as a ballista bolt or a cannonball.

<hr>

And a higher level version of counter punch, perhaps?

Quantum Punch Defense (Ex): When you're up against an expert brawler you're either already punched or you're about to be punched. Really the only question is when. Starting at level X, a brawler's enemies are simultaneously both punched and not punched, and only the brawler can collapse this waveform (if you know what I mean). Whenever a brawler is attacked in melee combat he can activate this ability as an immediate action to declare that he actually punched that guy earlier in the fight. He can make a full attack against them right now, and if that kills them the brawler is safe from the initiating attack roll.

I LOVE IT! Alright, incorporating, thank you very much.

[Quellian-dyrae]

Power Word: Punch is mostly there for the lolz, seriously, as soon as I came up with the idea I was snickering the whole time I typed it (The entire class was a bit of a laugh to make, actually). I put it at level 11 because that's when the brawler gets his third iterative attack. So trading 3 potential hits (And with a +14 + Con bonus to Concentration checks, you could easily make that third attack hit) for a single guaranteed strike as a full attack seems fair to me. Just when you really want to finish someone off, or when they have mirror image or something up as a final defense.

Okay, that's fair enough. I was thinking more along the fluff of how it gets easier to hit as you hit them more, which isn't really the case if they have less than 101 hit points to begin with. Balance-wise, though, I agree, that's a fair trade.

Um...I think some of the new defensive abilities just turned things around from too little defense to too much. Deceptive Stance is nominally balanced by cross-class Bluff, so you're looking at around +2 + 1/2 Level AC at the cost of two skill points per point. But snag a few levels of a class with Bluff as a class skill, and you now have an AC of 3 + level for 1 skill point a point. That's a great deal, and since it's skill based, gained at first level, and stacks with everything but armor, it makes a one-level brawler dip an amazing defensive option.

Right Back At Ya is fine in and of itself (in fact, I agree strongly with "turn your attacks against you" as a good defensive option for this class in lieu of AC, DR, and the like), but it seems a bit off to me. Since it replaces AC with an attack roll, Concentrated Punch becomes a free defense boost to it...but that's technically balanced because it tanks your melee AC, and since you probably can't attack the ranged foes anyway (except by knocking their attacks back at them), it's kind of cool, since it changes it from "I'm helpless" to "It's a stalemate". However, it still gives you the issue of having no melee defense, making you vulnerable to power attacks and iterative attacks.

I think what I'd do, in keeping with the "my AC will probably be 0" nature of the class, is give it a sort of "limited regeneration". It fast heals nonlethal damage like normal, but only converts, say, Con Mod + Level damage from each successful attack into nonlethal damage. That gives it some survivability, and lets it do the thing where it gets beaten down, seemingly defeated, but after a few seconds pulls itself back up and goes back into the fight. You could even speed up the regeneration while it's unconscious (maybe as a higher-level ability).

Maybe also add some sort of "clothesline" ability so when a foe charges it it can make a counter that, say, deals double damage and knocks it prone, or something. That would help against chargers.

As far as the capstone...I'd probably replace the touch attack part with just saying that all its punches are now stunning punches, rather than just one per round. Maybe, to keep rolling down, say that it applies once per round per opponent, but each additional hit in the same round adds +2 to the DC. This can be especially useful because it means its various counter-attack capabilities can end a full attack...although I guess knockback punch already could, huh? Well, gives another option for it, at any rate.

[NeoSeraphi]

For your point about Deceptive Stance, fair enough. I'll make it "Up to your class level" that way it only applies if you stick with Brawler and only gives a +1 bonus for those who dip.

The regeneration idea is interesting, but I wonder what level I should put it in at?

Your suggestion for a replaced capstone is...underwhelming. Fortitude saves at 20th level are ridiculously high. Stunning is pretty much limited to natural ones at that point.

[Codemus]

Wow, looks awesome. I just have one concern with:
One-Two Punch (Ex): The brawler has mastered the classic follow-up punch. As a standard action, the brawler may make two melee attacks with his unarmed strike against the same foe. The first at his highest attack bonus, the second with a -5 penalty.

The purpose behind it tripped me up for a while. I was like "Why use this when you have more attacks from just full-attacking?" Then I realized this gives you two attacks after a move action, and I felt stupid. :smallbiggrin: Is there an alternate wording that could clarify it a bit? Maybe point out the movement aspect.

[Dryad]

I agree that 5d10 is, in itself, not spectacular when you compare it to other characters (like the charger). However, one major thing is: All those other people need to multiclass, splash, take useless feats to meet prerequisites, and basically build their characters around this trick.
The 5d10 is something the brawler gets regardless. It needs no feat requirements, skill requirements, strange class splashes, or a pure forcus on a far-away goal from level 1 (as in: until you've finally got everything lined up to get your super-combo, you'll generally be sub-par due to awkwardness).

By the way, I LOVE the quantum fist idea! I love it, want to cudle up to it, and use it as a teddy-bear at night.

[NeoSeraphi]

I agree that 5d10 is, in itself, not spectacular when you compare it to other characters (like the charger). However, one major thing is: All those other people need to multiclass, splash, take useless feats to meet prerequisites, and basically build their characters around this trick.
The 5d10 is something the brawler gets regardless. It needs no feat requirements, skill requirements, strange class splashes, or a pure forcus on a far-away goal from level 1 (as in: until you've finally got everything lined up to get your super-combo, you'll generally be sub-par due to awkwardness).

By the way, I LOVE the quantum fist idea! I love it, want to cudle up to it, and use it as a teddy-bear at night.

Not having to splash or multi-class or take feats is a GOOD thing. Sticking in a base class for all twenty levels and rewarding the character for not multi-classing or prestiging out means the class was a success.

[Dryad]

What I meant to say was: Other classes need to abuse flaws in the system to get those things. It's cheesy, and usually simply power-play.
Maybe it's just a personal thing, but I don't like it when people play a certain build with the sole reason of being 'the best.' Pick a build because it fits a character, not because your calculator tells you to.

[Codemus]

Hey, I just realized, the Brawler dosen't have Bluff as a class skill, which Deceptive Stance relies on. Was that an oversight?

[NakedCelt]

... and NeoSeraphi makes fifteen.

(Fifteen what? Fifteen independently created unarmed warrior classes called "the Brawler". The others are here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191111), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149668), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6426076), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45038), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11110), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31001), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3350315), here (cough) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53334), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26329), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56408), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11608), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39972), here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11783), and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47103), and there was a sixteenth from a different forum but it's not online any more.)

[Codemus]

Huh, wow. Bound to happen I suppose. Perhaps Pugilist would have been a better name?


Less repeated at any rate. (maybe)

[NeoSeraphi]

Hey, I just realized, the Brawler dosen't have Bluff as a class skill, which Deceptive Stance relies on. Was that an oversight?

It's on purpose. The Brawler isn't good at bluffing, he's a direct, straightforward fighter. And +23 AC is too high. So yes, the AC bonus from Deceptive Stance is capped at +11 at level 20 (unless you go epic, which I don't have levels written for)

[Lonely Tylenol]

Looks like a really fun class. Mostly different abilities that the Monk or Fighter SHOULD have, but don't, for whatever reason.

I'd have to say my main confusion comes with when you can use what attacks. Just from looking at it, it seems there's nothing stopping me from using a Concentrated Leaping Devastating Stunning punch. Why is that? Which skills interact with which others? Is there a criteria for which skills combine (other than that you can't combine different full-round actions)?

Also, I'm kind of not seeing a reason NOT to use Concentrating Punch and Leaping Punch for every attack. Concentrating Punch adds an untyped bonus to your attack rolls that ALWAYS grants a bonus, effectively doubling your attack roll every time if you invest at least a marginal amount (to put things in perspective, a level 3 Brawler with 18 STR and 16 CON who maxes ranks in Concentration has an attack bonus of 6 + 4 + 3 + 3 = 16, before rolling EITHER the Concentration check OR the attack roll (and if you roll 1 or 2, respectively, the minimum before critical fumbles if you use them, you still get a 19 result at level 3). As you can see, "roll to hit" becomes extremely trivialized, and ADDING the Concentration check to your to-hit roll (instead of replacing it, like a certain Diamond Mind maneuver does for damage) means that, at level 3 and onward, you can replace your ENTIRE BAB with Power Attack or Defensive Punch and still have level+3 to-hit, PLUS two relevant to-hit modifiers, PLUS a 2d20 and add attack roll. Even untrained, adding a second attribute and an extra d20 to-hit is quite powerful, and you shouldn't expect to miss on anything but a 1 for as many as 18 levels. (It also means Defensive Punch and Power Attack can be maxed at any time, meaning you effectively have your level to AC or damage on all attacks without really incurring a real chance to miss.)

As for Leaping Punch, at least it's a binary pass-fail skill, unlike Concentrating Punch, but you gain a reward for succeeding and lose nothing for failing (not even the action you're leaping on), so even if you only succeed on a 19 or 20, there's no reason not to jump EVERY TIME, so as to at least get the double bonus that 10% of the time. Imagine Power Attack without an attack roll penalty! Some sort of penalty for failing the check (like, instead of "deciding not to jump", "your jump falls short, putting you off-balance and incurring a to-hit penalty equal to the number by which you missed the DC) would balance that out nicely.

[NakedCelt]

Huh, wow. Bound to happen I suppose. Perhaps Pugilist would have been a better name?


Less repeated at any rate. (maybe)

No, I think we should pool them all together and come up with an "official" Brawler class. Maybe someone should write in to Wizards of the Coast with something to go in D&D 5e?

[Codemus]

No, I think we should pool them all together and come up with an "official" Brawler class. Maybe someone should write in to Wizards of the Coast with something to go in D&D 5e?

That would be pretty cool. I doubt WotC would do anything with it though, cause I mean they already have Monk. Barbarians can pull off being unarmed too (well, maybe not in 4the.)

[NeoSeraphi]

Looks like a really fun class. Mostly different abilities that the Monk or Fighter SHOULD have, but don't, for whatever reason.

I'd have to say my main confusion comes with when you can use what attacks. Just from looking at it, it seems there's nothing stopping me from using a Concentrated Leaping Devastating Stunning punch. Why is that? Which skills interact with which others? Is there a criteria for which skills combine (other than that you can't combine different full-round actions)?

Also, I'm kind of not seeing a reason NOT to use Concentrating Punch and Leaping Punch for every attack. Concentrating Punch adds an untyped bonus to your attack rolls that ALWAYS grants a bonus, effectively doubling your attack roll every time if you invest at least a marginal amount (to put things in perspective, a level 3 Brawler with 18 STR and 16 CON who maxes ranks in Concentration has an attack bonus of 6 + 4 + 3 + 3 = 16, before rolling EITHER the Concentration check OR the attack roll (and if you roll 1 or 2, respectively, the minimum before critical fumbles if you use them, you still get a 19 result at level 3). As you can see, "roll to hit" becomes extremely trivialized, and ADDING the Concentration check to your to-hit roll (instead of replacing it, like a certain Diamond Mind maneuver does for damage) means that, at level 3 and onward, you can replace your ENTIRE BAB with Power Attack or Defensive Punch and still have level+3 to-hit, PLUS two relevant to-hit modifiers, PLUS a 2d20 and add attack roll. Even untrained, adding a second attribute and an extra d20 to-hit is quite powerful, and you shouldn't expect to miss on anything but a 1 for as many as 18 levels. (It also means Defensive Punch and Power Attack can be maxed at any time, meaning you effectively have your level to AC or damage on all attacks without really incurring a real chance to miss.)

As for Leaping Punch, at least it's a binary pass-fail skill, unlike Concentrating Punch, but you gain a reward for succeeding and lose nothing for failing (not even the action you're leaping on), so even if you only succeed on a 19 or 20, there's no reason not to jump EVERY TIME, so as to at least get the double bonus that 10% of the time. Imagine Power Attack without an attack roll penalty! Some sort of penalty for failing the check (like, instead of "deciding not to jump", "your jump falls short, putting you off-balance and incurring a to-hit penalty equal to the number by which you missed the DC) would balance that out nicely.

Defensive Punch specifically states it can't be used at the same time as Concentrated Punch.

So if you want to Concentrated Punch every round, that's fine. But you effectively knock your AC to 0. Every round. In exchange for a guarantee to hit. There's also no way to limit it. For instance, if your BAB is +6, and you just need a +2 to hit or so, you still have to take the 14 or so you roll for your Concentration check and take that hit to your AC. The class already has Full BAB, so Concentrated Punch provides very diminished returns as the levels go on.

You can't combine Leaping Punch with any of the other punches except Stunning and Concentrated, because all the punches require a Full Round action, and you can't have more than one full round action per round. You COULD use a Leaping Concentrated Stunning Punch, but not every round as Leaping Punch requires you to charge, so unless you're dropping a foe every round (unlikely), you'll only be using Leaping Punch on one enemy. It provides the same bonus to a charger that the Valorous weapon enhancement provides, (double damage on all charges) but with a required skill check instead of simply paying 8000 gp for an auto-double damage ability.

[Rossebay]

I'm gonna be honest:
I almost pissed my pants reading the class feature descriptions. Oh, wow.
Really considering playing a half-orc brawler or something like that in the near future. This class is fantastic.
I only wish there was something Falcon-Punch esque.

The racial descriptions had me laughing for about 5 minutes, and Quantum Punch Defense caught me for some reason and I was laughing at THAT for a good 2 minutes.

Needless to say, I'm VERY happy that I happened across this thread at such a late hour. Really made my day.

On topic, I really like the way this class runs. It's all melee, all focused on doing whatever the hell you feel like with one swift punch to the face. There's no real way around it. You punch enemies in the face. I like that. The DM asks me what I'm gonna do?
I'm gonna punch 'em in the face. And that, to me, is more rewarding than dropping some pansy-ass comets on them.

[NeoSeraphi]

I'm gonna be honest:
I almost pissed my pants reading the class feature descriptions. Oh, wow.
Really considering playing a half-orc brawler or something like that in the near future. This class is fantastic.
I only wish there was something Falcon-Punch esque.

The racial descriptions had me laughing for about 5 minutes, and Quantum Punch Defense caught me for some reason and I was laughing at THAT for a good 2 minutes.

Needless to say, I'm VERY happy that I happened across this thread at such a late hour. Really made my day.

On topic, I really like the way this class runs. It's all melee, all focused on doing whatever the hell you feel like with one swift punch to the face. There's no real way around it. You punch enemies in the face. I like that. The DM asks me what I'm gonna do?
I'm gonna punch 'em in the face. And that, to me, is more rewarding than dropping some pansy-ass comets on them.


Fist of Fire
Prerequisites: Unarmed Damage 2d10, Must be mature enough to not make obvious F-Zero references every time you use this feat
Benefits: You may charge your fists with powerful fire energy to unleash a devastating attack. As a standard action, you may deliver a deadly punch that deals your normal unarmed strike damage, plus 1d8 fire damage per 2 character levels. After using this feat, you must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.
Special: You may treat this feat as a breath weapon for the purposes of the following feats (this also allows you to qualify for those feats) Maximize Breath, Lingering Breath, Empower Breath, Quicken Breath

There you go. Have fun smacking people down!

[Kellus]

Fist of Fire
Prerequisites: Unarmed Damage 2d10, Must be mature enough to not make obvious F-Zero references every time you use this feat
Benefits: You may charge your fists with powerful fire energy to unleash a devastating attack. As a standard action, you may deliver a deadly punch that deals your normal unarmed strike damage, plus 1d8 fire damage per 2 character levels. You can choose to have this ability deliver an awesome blow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm) even if you don't meet the prerequisites for the feat. To use that option you must assume a -4 penalty to your attack roll, with an additional -4 penalty for every size category the target is greater than the normal limit. After using this feat, you must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.
Special: You may treat this feat as a breath weapon for the purposes of the following feats (this also allows you to qualify for those feats) Maximize Breath, Lingering Breath, Empower Breath, Quicken Breath

Fixed that for you.

[NeoSeraphi]

Fixed that for you.

Why thank you good sir! Yes, this fits better

[NeoSeraphi]

Alright, well since Quelliran wasn't offering any advice, I put the limited regeneration in at level 10. It only applies to weapons, but now he has a strong defense against melee, even with 0 AC.

[Zeta Kai]

I really like this class, & I don't mind that it doesn't have any explicit movement options to supplement its highly-focused feature set. That's what WBL is for! If you wanna punch a flying dragon, buy a magic carpet, or a flying broom, or a potion of fly, or any of the other myriad means of gaining flight in this game. You want mobility? A potion of freedom of movement plus a wand of dimension door will serve you well. This class doesn't need to spend money on weapons, which are the most expensive magical items in the game, so it should have a lot of money freed up for all sorts of other gear. I don't see a problem with this, only an opportunity for more punching. Which is a damn good thing, as I'm all out of bubble gum. :smallwink:

[NeoSeraphi]

I really like this class, & I don't mind that it doesn't have any explicit movement options to supplement its highly-focused feature set. That's what WBL is for! If you wanna punch a flying dragon, buy a magic carpet, or a flying broom, or a potion of fly, or any of the other myriad means of gaining flight in this game. You want mobility? A potion of freedom of movement plus a wand of dimension door will serve you well. This class doesn't need to spend money on weapons, which are the most expensive magical items in the game, so it should have a lot of money freed up for all sorts of other gear. I don't see a problem with this, only an opportunity for more punching. Which is a damn good thing, as I'm all out of bubble gum. :smallwink:

Thank you. Yes, other than, say, an Amulet of Mighty Fist, or some material gloves (Cold Iron and silver), you can't really improve your weapon with money. (Unless you want to go kensai, but that would just be weird...) So you can spend all that extra cash on...say, things you actually need! Like Bracers of Armor, if you're into that.

[Zeta Kai]

Like Bracers of Armor, if you're into that.

I am into that, as a matter of fact. And since magical armor costs about half of what magical weapons do, you could deck out your Brawler in all kinds of protections & still have enough coin to load 'em up with crazy gear. I always feel like my melee characters are strapped for cash, due to weapon costs, but the Brawler here free up my finances so I can splurge on really fun things while still getting the bases covered.

[SilverSavio]

I think that some of the Feats for the monk could be reworked for the Brawler quite well like Pain Touch. Call it "I think you broked my nose!!!" or Ow My Nose for short.

Ow My Nose
You can punch someone in the face so hard that they will be checking the pain in their face to make sure their nose ain't broke.

Prerequisites: Str 15, Stunning Punch, BAB +2

Benefit: You punch them so hard that the round after a successful Stunning Punch that your opponent will be stunned for one additional round from pain from where you hit.


Maybe also turning Weakening Touch into Dead Punch

Dead Punch
A brawler knows how to punch the strength out of his opponent.

Prerequisites: Str 17, Punch Them In The Face, BAB +2

Benefit: A successful punch causes no damage and the target to take a -6 Str penalty for 1 round/2 levels. Any other attempts while in effect do not stack but instead reset the clock.

[NeoSeraphi]

I think that some of the Feats for the monk could be reworked for the Brawler quite well like Pain Touch. Call it "I think you broked my nose!!!" or Ow My Nose for short.

Ow My Nose
You can punch someone in the face so hard that they will be checking the pain in their face to make sure their nose ain't broke.

Prerequisites: Str 15, Stunning Punch, BAB +2

Benefit: You punch them so hard that the round after a successful Stunning Punch that your opponent will be stunned for one additional round from pain from where you hit.


Maybe also turning Weakening Touch into Dead Punch

Dead Punch
A brawler knows how to punch the strength out of his opponent.

Prerequisites: Str 17, Punch Them In The Face, BAB +2

Benefit: A successful punch causes no damage and the target to loose 6 points in Strength for 1 round/2 levels. Any other attempts while in effect do not stack but instead reset the clock.

Although I could just be a moron who has no idea what he's doing:smallfrown:

This is good, though, I would have to disagree with your wording on Dead Punch- it would be "takes a -6 Str penalty". (There's a huge difference in 3.5 between ability penalties and ability damage)

Other than that, nice! Good feat ideas.

[SilverSavio]

I've been thinking some more and I think I have a couple more feats that go with the brawler theme.

Arms of a Contender
You've been punching so many faces in your life that your arms have become outstanding at delivering force.

Prerequisites: Str 17, Punch Them in the Face, BAB +3 (or higher)

Benefit: You are capable of delivering more force then your average puncher. Your add your Str * 1.5 for every punch you throw and only to punches.

Arms of a Champion
There is no force greater at rearranging faces then your blows.

Prerequisites: Str 19 or 20, Punch Them in the Face, Arms of a Contender, BAB +6 (or much higher)

Benefit: You are at the top tier of the punching world. Your arms are capable of delivering double power (Atk+Str*2) for your strikes.

The idea I have behind these two feats is that a brawler's arm strength for striking should be higher then anyone else because that is all he does. These really help cement in how much better at tenderizing flesh a brawler is with these feats then just a part time one (multiclass dip). I hope this idea that is balanced, but it most certainly does fit the theme.


Ringside Coach
The Brawler isn't the smartest person around town and isn't the most liked. To survive sometimes he needs an ally with some brains telling him who he can punch to get what he wants. Not only that the brawlers companion has to know something about punching people in the face and how to give proper advice.

Prerequisites: Punch Them in the Face

Benefit: The ally to the brawler can have any number of reason to be helping the brawler although one thing is universal, they enable the brawler punch people in the face better. The ally usually stays away from the fight and can give situational advice to the brawler. This ally can be of any class but they tend to favor rouges and bards. [Other vital info I am most likely missing like the actual numbers they help.]

This one is simple for me about how my thought process developed it. I was thinking of boxers and their coaches. People who stand their and just give advice on how to hit. Of course Leadership is already there so this might just be redundant.

[SilverSavio]

Would the Brawler's unarmed damage scale like a Monk's when applied to creatures of smaller/larger sizes?

[NeoSeraphi]

Not like a monk's, since it uses a completely different damage scheme. More like this:

Small Monk: 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 5d6
Large Monk: 2d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 10d8

[SilverSavio]

Not like a monk's, since it uses a completely different damage scheme. More like this:

Small Monk: 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 5d6
Large Monk: 2d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 10d8

Oh I know it's not like the Monk's damage table but wouldn't it be more like

Small Brawler: 1d8, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 5d8
Large Brawler: 2d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 10d6

[NeoSeraphi]

Oh I know it's not like the Monk's damage table but wouldn't it be more like

Small Brawler: 1d8, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 5d8
Large Brawler: 2d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 10d6

Going off the damage table of the monk's, (which lists 2d10 as 4d8), I would assume the Large damage (as I stated it in my previous post) is correct. As for the small damage, what you have listed is possible, I suppose.

Edit: If it helps, a Large sized bastard sword (which deals 1d10 Medium) deals 2d8 damage, as listed in the SRD. So yeah, 2d8 for every 1d10.

[SilverSavio]

I've been thinking about a way to use Stunning Punches and I think I've come up with something.

Knuckle Sandwhich
A brawler lives to have people taste his knuckles. Those that have the vision, and will power, can turn a stunning blow into one that can feed a village.

Prerequisites: Stunning Punch, BAB +2

Benefit: You can increase the damage of one attack by one size category. Using this ability uses your Stunning Punch for the round.


Is it good, or should I just stop while I'm ahead?

[Shadow Lord]

Neo, you should be ashamed. You forgot the most important thing for any Badass Normal. You forgot...

http://toomuchgaming.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/falcon_punch_by_lobostylez.jpg

[NeoSeraphi]

Unfortunately, for Knuckle Sandwich, Improved Natural Attack increases the effective size of a natural attack permanently, but it doesn't stack with other increases in damage, so this particular feat is just subpar to what already exists.

Sorry

And ShadowLord, I made the Fist of Fire feat! I just didn't have the motivational poster. But now I do!

[SilverSavio]

Yes improved natural attack is better but you didn't make mention that a brawler's fists was considered a natural weapon. I should have asked about that first.

I'll just have to go to the drawing board again because it would be fun to have have feat to make opponents eat a knuckle sandwhich. Now to think about what that fun effect could be... Amateur away. <Flies into a white board.>

[NeoSeraphi]

Yes improved natural attack is better but you didn't make mention that a brawler's fists was considered a natural weapon. I should have asked about that first.

I'll just have to go to the drawing board again because it would be fun to have have feat to make opponents eat a knuckle sandwhich. Now to think about what that fun effect could be... Amateur away. <Flies into a white board.>

Er...I didn't think that was necessary, as it's a fist, just like a slam attack is a slam attack..but okay. I'll update the OP now...

[SilverSavio]

While I haven't had any ideas that could use the Knuckle Sandwhich moniker, but I have come up with something else going off of the base idea from Fist of Fire.

Soul of Fire
What is scarier then a man punching your face in? One that is on fire of course. You can set your hands on fire for devastating attacks through badass-ness, but now your very soul of badass-ness can set you ablaze as you rampage across the battlefield.

Prerequisites: Fist of Fire, Angry Brawler or similar Rage ability, Unarmed Damage 2d10

Benefit: When activating Angry Brawler, you may choose to activate Soul of Fire, which sets you ablaze with the effects from Fist of Fire. This fire harms any who comes into contact with it, including those from your fists. You cannot deliver an awesome blow for you are too busy being on fire. Soul of Fire lasts as long as Angry Brawler and cannot be turned off until AB is. After AB is over you may not use FoF for the rest of the encounter just like with the AB ability. Using SoF increases the Condition Status that AB produces by one level (fatigue=>exhausted)

Special: You may treat this feat as a breath weapon for the purposes of the following feats (this also allows you to qualify for those feats) Maximize Breath, Lingering Breath, Empower Breath

The kernel of this idea came from looking at Fiery Fist, Fiery Ki Defense, Fist of Fire, and Angry Brawler. As I thought about it I asked what would be an awesome way to make a better Fiery Ki Defense based off of Fist of Fire. Then I remembered AB and a raging inferno came to my mind. It would give a Brawler more protection while raging was also a thought.

Any comments and advice would be appreciated.

[NeoSeraphi]

While I haven't had any ideas that could use the Knuckle Sandwhich moniker, but I have come up with something else going off of the base idea from Fist of Fire.

Soul of Fire
What is scarier then a man punching your face in? One that is on fire of course. You can set your hands on fire for devastating attacks through badass-ness, but now your very soul of badass-ness can set you ablaze as you rampage across the battlefield.

Prerequisites: Fist of Fire, Angry Brawler or similar Rage ability, Unarmed Damage 2d10

Benefit: When activating Angry Brawler, you may choose to activate Soul of Fire, which sets you ablaze with the effects from Fist of Fire. This fire harms any who comes into contact with it, including those from your fists. You cannot deliver an awesome blow for you are too busy being on fire. Soul of Fire lasts as long as Angry Brawler and cannot be turned off until AB is. After AB is over you may not use FoF for the rest of the encounter just like with the AB ability. Using SoF increases the Condition Status that AB produces by one level (fatigue=>exhausted)

Special: You may treat this feat as a breath weapon for the purposes of the following feats (this also allows you to qualify for those feats) Maximize Breath, Lingering Breath, Empower Breath

The kernel of this idea came from looking at Fiery Fist, Fiery Ki Defense, Fist of Fire, and Angry Brawler. As I thought about it I asked what would be an awesome way to make a better Fiery Ki Defense based off of Fist of Fire. Then I remembered AB and a raging inferno came to my mind. It would give a Brawler more protection while raging was also a thought.

Any comments and advice would be appreciated.

Haha it's fantastic! Nice feat.

[SilverSavio]

I've been thinking about how TWF was said to be a trap for this class, yet I've been trying to think of a flavorful way to give them more attacks. I believe I have come up with a feat for it. I have probably entered the realm of thinking about this too much, but hey I'm enjoying this.

Punch Them in the Face Some More
If you think that your Sunday Punch is all you need, then you probably are a moron. A true practitioner of fist fighting knows not to place their hope in a one hit knock out. Instead opting to use the strength of their arms to throw multiple punches.

Prerequisites: Str 16, Punch Them in the Face

Benefit: For having a high str bonus you can make more attacks at your highest BAB, but you cannot gain more attacks then CL/2 (minimum 1). This ability scales as so: At 1st level for every 3pts of Str modifier you have, gain 1 extra attack (3:1) with attack and damage at a -2; At 5th level it improves to 3:2 with the penalty reducing to -1; At 10th it improves again to 1:1 with no penalty; At 15th 2:3 and 20th 1:3.

These extra attacks can only be made while unarmed and using Punch Them in the Face.

[Sgt. Cookie]

I know that the entire class is based off "punching people in the face" but shouldn't The Brawler be proficient with improvised weapons? If he were truly a brawler then he should be able to use just about anything he can grab and smack his foe with, a bottle, a large rock, the dismembered arm of one of his companions, not JUST his own two fists.

[NeoSeraphi]

I know that the entire class is based off "punching people in the face" but shouldn't The Brawler be proficient with improvised weapons? If he were truly a brawler then he should be able to use just about anything he can grab and smack his foe with, a bottle, a large rock, the dismembered arm of one of his companions, not JUST his own two fists.

By your logic, the monk should be a non-violent Int-based scholar in a robe and the archivist a quiet librarian who never went on adventures. :smalltongue:

It's just the name of the class. The class has a narrow focus. Dealing lethal damage with improvised weapons is something that only prestige classes can do, giving it to a base class would actually undermine that system entirely. (And I've already undermined unarmed combat here xD)

[SilverSavio]

By your logic, the monk should be a non-violent Int-based scholar in a robe and the archivist a quiet librarian who never went on adventures. :smalltongue:

It's just the name of the class. The class has a narrow focus. Dealing lethal damage with improvised weapons is something that only prestige classes can do, giving it to a base class would actually undermine that system entirely. (And I've already undermined unarmed combat here xD)

You have not undermined unarmed combat here. You have simply empowered it to allow melee jump in front of a Dragon and Punch It in the Face... Really wishing I had an emoticon of that right now.:smallcool:

[NeoSeraphi]

You have not undermined unarmed combat here. You have simply empowered it to allow melee jump in front of a Dragon and Punch It in the Face... Really wishing I had an emoticon of that right now.:smallcool:

The dragon must be punched in the face! There are no other options!

Except grappling the dragon with my beast incarnate prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11654341), where I empower grapplers the same way I empowered unarmed combat here!

*shameless self-promoting*

[Sgt. Cookie]

By your logic, the monk should be a non-violent Int-based scholar in a robe and the archivist a quiet librarian who never went on adventures. :smalltongue:

It's just the name of the class. The class has a narrow focus. Dealing lethal damage with improvised weapons is something that only prestige classes can do, giving it to a base class would actually undermine that system entirely. (And I've already undermined unarmed combat here xD)

Your point on the PrC is accurate, but they tend to have many other abilities and weapons for use as well. The Brawler simply gets more and more inventive in punching people to death.

[SilverSavio]

Your point on the PrC is accurate, but they tend to have many other abilities and weapons for use as well. The Brawler simply gets more and more inventive in punching people to death.

He has a point here. The Brawler should have some more utility punches because they can tenderize and cook meat already using Fist of Fire. Maybe something like punching the ground for super jumping like Kazuma from S-cry-ed does.

Edit: Maybe give the Brawler an ACF to punch at range instead of Power Word: Punch. Call it Punches from the Punch Dimension. As a full round action you can attack anyone within Double your Movement.

[SilverSavio]

Oh and a simpler feat idea then the Punch Them in the Face Some More


Two-Fisted Fighting
The power of Punch is yours!

Prerequisite: Str 15 (or Wis 15)

Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for two unarmed strikes are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.

[SilverSavio]

Hey NeoSeraphi I'm most likely going to take this class out for a test drive in a non-magic Steam Punk world. I'll make sure to post how the class plays mechanically in that setting.

[NeoSeraphi]

Sweet. Be sure to run it by your DM though...there's not a single WotC class that grants regeneration (base or prestige), so it's a pretty powerful feature.

[Showzilla]

I like dis class, its a westerners answer to the monks eastern feel.
form vs energy
discipline vs discipline
precision vs power
grace vs speed
strategist vs tactician
chocolate vs vanilla
red vs blue
left vs right
down vs up
in vs out
forum vs me
****vs****

[NeoSeraphi]

Thanks, Showzilla. Glad you liked it. This class has received some pretty positive feedback over all. If you are interested, feel free to peruse the links in my signature and check out some of my other homebrew. Hope to hear from you on one of my other classes. :smallsmile:

[SilverSavio]

Sweet. Be sure to run it by your DM though...there's not a single WotC class that grants regeneration (base or prestige), so it's a pretty powerful feature.

I've run it by him and he is going to want to see how this guy plays out.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=317155

You can find my character there, hopefully, and the only real thing he said I could not have was the fire damage if I took the Fist of Fire feat. But I'm keep going because this character demands to be that BADASS (also because there is a half-dragon in the party that gets breath attacks and a guy that can effectively earth bend sand).

Also forgot to ask him if I can take flaws. If I can't I'll probably dump power attack and imp init.

Edit:Made public now.

[NeoSeraphi]

I've run it by him and he is going to want to see how this guy plays out.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=317155

You can find my character there, hopefully, and the only real thing he said I could not have was the fire damage if I took the Fist of Fire feat. But I'm keep going because this character demands to be that BADASS (also because there is a half-dragon in the party that gets breath attacks and a guy that can effectively earth bend sand).

Also forgot to ask him if I can take flaws. If I can't I'll probably dump power attack and imp init.

Link says I don't have authorization to view. Can you post the Read-Only version, please?

[SilverSavio]

Yeah his is most definitely viewable to the public. So any advice you can give will be greatly appreciated.

[NeoSeraphi]

Improved Natural Attack has a prerequisite of +4 BAB, so your character can't take it til level 6. Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm)

I suggest replacing your 1st level feat with Improved Sunder (because if you're going to play a guy who punches things in the face, you should be able to hit weapons so hard they shatter, and at level 7 you'll be able to break anything easily with Shattering Punch)

You also haven't bought any items..I suggest a Healing Belt from Magic Item Compendium (gives you a 6d8 healing/day with no UMD check or magic item slot consumed), as well as an Amulet of Natural Attacks if you can afford it with your WBL

[SilverSavio]

You know I never looked at Improved Natural Attacks prerequisites until today. From how they were described I always thought they could be taken at level 1. That's what I get for making assumptions. Thanks for the advice Neo.

[SilverSavio]

Had my first session with my Brawler yesterday. He played fairly well in a fight. I could not spot or listen to save my life, but I sure as shoot destroyed someones face. I also used my fist as a lock pick for a couple of things.

We were on a cargo rig that got ambushed and some Knolls or whatever climbed the rig and mining bots were attacking the treads, all while a sniper took some shots at us.

I took a couple of sniper shots, mostly cause the guy crit-ed.

For the first enemy I engaged in melee I used: Power Attack + Concentrated Punch + Leaping Punch = +18 (1). I then rolled a nat 20 and the damage I rolled equaled to 21 x4 so 84 points of damage. I was wearing that things skull on my hand. Which then got shot by the sniper for 7 damage.


Tried to bullrush a construct failed got pummeled tumbled away to heal. And then charged the construct with a PA + CP = +20 and dealt enough damage for my hand to end up in the bots chest.

And then my Thri-Keen, Disciple of Metal, Bard teammate jumped 15ft up and went down 30 onto the thing and attacking it like 5 times dealing a butt load of damage. Trapping my hand in it. The second construct then attacked (I got to about 7 hp at this point).

The DM suggested that I grab some wires and pull with my hand in there, but I just said I punch it some more, which put it out of commission.

TL:DR The character was able to do a big chunk of damage and take a pounding. And through play I had two questions.

Question1: Since Leaping Punch is a skill check does PA and CP stack?
Question2: Does a nat 20 lead to the second x2 Leaping punch?

[NeoSeraphi]

Concentrated Punch does not increase your damage output. However, you may take a penalty to your attack rolls during the same round you activated Concentrated Punch, and the result would stack, such as taking a -5 penalty from Power Attack and gaining a +13 bonus from Concentrated Punch evening out to a +8 bonus.

If you confirm a critical hit on the same attack that you also boosted with Leaping Punch, you increase your critical multiplier as normal. So a x2 punch would double to x3, and a x3 punch would double to x5. (A x4 punch, if you found a way, would double to x7)

[SilverSavio]

Concentrated Punch does not increase your damage output. However, you may take a penalty to your attack rolls during the same round you activated Concentrated Punch, and the result would stack, such as taking a -5 penalty from Power Attack and gaining a +13 bonus from Concentrated Punch evening out to a +8 bonus.

If you confirm a critical hit on the same attack that you also boosted with Leaping Punch, you increase your critical multiplier as normal. So a x2 punch would double to x3, and a x3 punch would double to x5. (A x4 punch, if you found a way, would double to x7)

I know that Concentrated Punch does not stack for damage, only To-Hit. What I was asking was that can Power Attack and Concentrated Punch be used to influence the attack roll for Leaping Punch since it says that it's a Jump check.

And thanks for explaining how the doubling of damage multipliers work.

[NeoSeraphi]

I know that Concentrated Punch does not stack for damage, only To-Hit. What I was asking was that can Power Attack and Concentrated Punch be used to influence the attack roll for Leaping Punch since it says that it's a Jump check.

And thanks for explaining how the doubling of damage multipliers work.

No. Leaping Punch is not an attack roll, and you still have to make an attack roll when you use Leaping Punch. (Even if your Jump check succeeds, you still miss if your attack roll misses). The attack roll itself is what Concentrated Punch and Power Attack modify.

[SilverSavio]

No. Leaping Punch is not an attack roll, and you still have to make an attack roll when you use Leaping Punch. (Even if your Jump check succeeds, you still miss if your attack roll misses). The attack roll itself is what Concentrated Punch and Power Attack modify.

Ah thanks for clearing that up.

[Wyntonian]

Just wondering, is it possible to take 10 on the concentration check for concentrated punch?

[NeoSeraphi]

Just wondering, is it possible to take 10 on the concentration check for concentrated punch?

No. Ten characters required to post anything on this site. Hadoken

[SilverSavio]

I've been wondering now since in your wording of Leaping Punch there is no minimum distance. Would that mean it can be used like a Shoryuken, as in right next to the opponent?

[NeoSeraphi]

I've been wondering now since in your wording of Leaping Punch there is no minimum distance. Would that mean it can be used like a Shoryuken, as in right next to the opponent?

Charging has a minimum distance of 10'. You must charge to use Leaping Punch. So no, unfortunately not. (The reason for this is to try and limit Leaping Punch's uses to one or two per enemy, as you generally only charge one enemy before you engage him)

[SilverSavio]

Then, can it be used to charge right next to the enemy and then use LP, turning it into a running Shoryuken?

In essence |Start|>>==>|>>==>|Enemy| right?

[NeoSeraphi]

Then, can it be used to charge right next to the enemy and then use LP, turning it into a running Shoryuken?

In essence |Start|>>==>|>>==>|Enemy| right?

Yes. As long as you can run 10 feet, you can perform a Leaping Punch.

[Showzilla]

Yes. As long as you can run 10 feet, you can perform a Leaping Punch.

imagines hellboy running headlong into swarm of monsters and flinging himself into the group, slamming fist first into them

[GernifTheBard]

Just wondering, is it possible to take 10 on the concentration check for concentrated punch?

No.

What about the Steady Concentration feat from Races of Stone?

[NeoSeraphi]

What about the Steady Concentration feat from Races of Stone?

But of course. That feat allows you to take 10 on all Concentration checks ever. What about? Yes. And that includes Concentrated Punch. :smallbiggrin:

[Wyntonian]

What sort of bonus is the Deceptive Stance bonus to AC? I have it down as Misc, but it could just as easily be dodge.

[NeoSeraphi]

What sort of bonus is the Deceptive Stance bonus to AC? I have it down as Misc, but it could just as easily be dodge.

I suppose it would be a dodge bonus, now that I think about it. I'll update the class to reflect this.

[SilverSavio]

I've been thinking of a Tactical Feat for this class to really give him some viable things in combat to augment his full round punches/full attacks. That get in there and punch the BBEG. I was thinking of a way to help really solidify that. And this is the basic idea I have.

Heavy Hitter-Power Attack, Concentrated Punch, Improved Unarmed Damage, BAB +6

Crack a Rib: -1 to Str, Dex, Con penalty on a Failed Fort save DC equal to 10+1/2 CL+ Str modifier. Every time the opponent gets hit by this punch he adds a -1 to his Fort save. The opponent cannot die from these penalties, but they may wish they could when breathing. Cannot be used with any Full round punch.

Hammer Fists: While a Brawlers AC=0 and taking at least a -5 with Power Attack, you can ignore hardness when attacking objects.

Haymaker: While making a full round punch/full attack gain the 1:2 ratio from Power attack.

I don't think it's too over the top, but PEACH please.

[NeoSeraphi]

I've been thinking of a Tactical Feat for this class to really give him some viable things in combat to augment his full round punches/full attacks. That get in there and punch the BBEG. I was thinking of a way to help really solidify that. And this is the basic idea I have.

Heavy Hitter-Power Attack, Concentrated Punch, Improved Unarmed Damage, BAB +6

Crack a Rib: -1 to Str, Dex, Con penalty on a Failed Fort save DC equal to 10+1/2 CL+ BAB. Every time the opponent gets hit by this punch he adds a -1 to his Fort save. The opponent cannot die from these penalties, but they may wish they could when breathing. Cannot be used with any Full round punch.

Hammer Fists: While a Brawlers AC=0 and taking at least a -5 with Power Attack, you can ignore hardness when attacking objects.

Haymaker: While making a full round punch/full attack gain the 1:2 ratio from Power attack.

I don't think it's too over the top, but PEACH please.

Er...how is Haymaker different than Shattering Fists? (Level 7 ability)

The DC for Crack a Rib is ridiculous. It's 10+1/2 level+level. If I was level 7, the DC would be 20. If I was level 20, the DC would be 40. DCs are generally 10+1/2 level+Ability modifier, probably Strength in this case, much more manageable.

[SilverSavio]

Er...how is Haymaker different than Shattering Fists? (Level 7 ability)

The DC for Crack a Rib is ridiculous. It's 10+1/2 level+level. If I was level 7, the DC would be 20. If I was level 20, the DC would be 40. DCs are generally 10+1/2 level+Ability modifier, probably Strength in this case, much more manageable.

I see what you are saying and agree with it. Did not think that one through completely, but as said this is a rough idea at the moment so I will go make the changes you suggested.

All I can say is DOH! for Hammer Fist. Forgot to re-read the class while thinking about this. But I think I have a better idea now thanks to Alex Mercer from Prototype.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlEFejEwV3M

Hammer Fist (2.0): For Leaping Punch you no longer have to charge, just throw a fist and your body will follow. Minimum ten foot distance from target. Combine your attack bonus plus half your jump modifier vs AC+15. If you hit the target they must roll a Fortitude save or fall prone (DC 10+damage dealt *1.5) and the Brawler lands on his feet.

If the brawler missed the attack roll but hit the targets Touch AC, then the brawler rolls reflex (DC 15) or lands prone in front of the target.

If he misses by 5 or more then the brawler lands prone in a surrounding square of the target.

Interesting Idea, bad execution on my part

[NeoSeraphi]

I see what you are saying and agree with it. Did not think that one through completely, but as said this is a rough idea at the moment so I will go make the changes you suggested.

All I can say is DOH! for Hammer Fist. Forgot to re-read the class while thinking about this. But I think I have a better idea now thanks to Alex Mercer from Prototype.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlEFejEwV3M

Hammer Fist (2.0): For Leaping Punch you no longer have to charge, just throw a fist and your body will follow. Minimum ten foot distance from target. Combine your attack bonus plus half your jump modifier vs AC+15. If you hit the target they must roll a Fortitude save or fall prone (DC 10+damage dealt *1.5) and the Brawler lands on his feet.

If the brawler missed the attack roll but hit the targets Touch AC, then the brawler rolls reflex (DC 15) or lands prone in front of the target.

If he misses by 5 or more then the brawler lands prone in a surrounding square of the target.

Hammer Fist is interesting...so basically you get a harder Jump check with a minimum distance...so all it lets you do is hit them with Leaping Punch through difficult terrain? I suppose it works.

[SilverSavio]

I have found the root cause to why I was making something like HammerFist. The DC for the Jump check can be ridiculous. The game I'm playing my brawler in has enemies with altered stats to make them harder since the DM thinks that we are beating people. There were constructs with an AC of 27, so to make that jump check I would roll against a 37. Being a Brawler 5 I can't hit him with leaping punch since at max I can get a 32. The only way to consistently stand a chance of activating this class feature would to be a Thri-Keen.

Which makes me think that the DC for the jump check should instead be against their Touch AC. With how it is written now, it can be interpreted that the enemies armor tells a Brawler to not leap into the air to punch them really hard. People in heavier armor are protected from the force of the punch, not the approach. Brawlers seem like the kinds of characters to try and crack a heavily armored walnut.

On the the other end of this spectrum are characters with higher Touch ACs. Who I think are traditionally faster, so they would be more mobile. This would make the Brawler decide not to jump at them if he failed the check.

[Qwertystop]

Er...I didn't think that was necessary, as it's a fist, just like a slam attack is a slam attack..but okay. I'll update the OP now...

Well, officially, unarmed strikes are simple weapons, not natural weapons.

[NeoSeraphi]

I have found the root cause to why I was making something like HammerFist. The DC for the Jump check can be ridiculous. The game I'm playing my brawler in has enemies with altered stats to make them harder since the DM thinks that we are beating people. There were constructs with an AC of 27, so to make that jump check I would roll against a 37. Being a Brawler 5 I can't hit him with leaping punch since at max I can get a 32. The only way to consistently stand a chance of activating this class feature would to be a Thri-Keen.

Which makes me think that the DC for the jump check should instead be against their Touch AC. With how it is written now, it can be interpreted that the enemies armor tells a Brawler to not leap into the air to punch them really hard. People in heavier armor are protected from the force of the punch, not the approach. Brawlers seem like the kinds of characters to try and crack a heavily armored walnut.

On the the other end of this spectrum are characters with higher Touch ACs. Who I think are traditionally faster, so they would be more mobile. This would make the Brawler decide not to jump at them if he failed the check.

No. Leaping Punch is supposed to be difficult. It's double damage on a charge. You need to optimize your Jump checks if you want to make them. Get a masterwork item, or a Ring of Jumping, pump your skill points into it, and consistently raise your Strength.

It is incredibly hard to make, but you don't lose anything on a failed check. So don't use Leaping Punch every turn. You have plenty of other options.

[SilverSavio]

So the Rogue, who usually has a higher Touch AC, then the Warrior, who has better AC, is going to get hit more often with the Brawlers Leaping Punch?

As you told me once before, you still have to make the attack roll after the jump check. Because what you are telling me is that you need an ungodly jumping score to even activate this against a slow moving tank with an AC of 50.

The Brawler does have other options available to use, but this is one that I feel needs refining conceptually on this point.

[NeoSeraphi]

So the Rogue, who usually has a higher Touch AC, then the Warrior, who has better AC, is going to get hit more often with the Brawlers Leaping Punch?

As you told me once before, you still have to make the attack roll after the jump check. Because what you are telling me is that you need an ungodly jumping score to even activate this against a slow moving tank with an AC of 50.

The Brawler does have other options available to use, but this is one that I feel needs refining conceptually on this point.

Alright, I'll change the DC to be a flat 20

[SilverSavio]

I've played a couple more games with my Brawler and I've been doing well. The class is holding up nicely in it's specialty of Punching People in the Face. Nearly reached massive damage on a lvl 13 enemy.

Quick question about Concentrated Punch and Angry Brawler. Would CP be usable with AB, or would it be like regular Rage and unusable?

And I've been thinking about the Tactical Feat Idea. Center it on Concentrated Punch. Give the Brawler even more incentive to put his life on the line for that 0 AC.

Give the feat Power Attack 2 for 1 (like with 2 Handed Fighting) while AC=0, Stunning Punch DC=10+Damage Dealt while AC=0, and maybe something else that fits with CP. Of course this is still a very rough idea that hasn't had much time for me to develop it.

[NeoSeraphi]

No, Angry Brawler is exactly like rage, and therefore you can't use Concentrated Punch while you're brawling.

Your idea seems interesting enough. Hope you give it some more thought and work it out. And I'm glad to receive feedback on it!

[Wyntonian]

Playing as my Brawler, at level 3 in an E6 game, against enemies with full armor, I have yet to need to ever hit an enemy twice.

[NeoSeraphi]

Playing as my Brawler, at level 3 in an E6 game, against enemies with full armor, I have yet to need to ever hit an enemy twice.

Could you please be clearer about your comment? As written, it could either be interpreted that you're pleased with the class's power, or that you think you're dealing too much damage and you're suggesting I tone it down.

[Wyntonian]

Well, we've had one bit of combat so far, and I dominated. It was fairly easy, but I one-shotted two Orcs in two turns. I'm a bit useless outside of combat, but that's to be expected. The damage isn't too overpowered, it's just significant. I'm pleased with it, but in a lower-op group (not that mine is all that high) it would be even more dominant.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, we've had one bit of combat so far, and I dominated. It was fairly easy, but I one-shotted two Orcs in two turns. I'm a bit useless outside of combat, but that's to be expected. The damage isn't too overpowered, it's just significant. I'm pleased with it, but in a lower-op group (not that mine is all that high) it would be even more dominant.

I'm not familiar with the E6 system, but I suppose your description is to be expected at level 3. That's the golden day for melee. You also have Concentrated Punch at this point so your accuracy is probably pretty good.

[Qwertystop]

I'm not familiar with the E6 system, but I suppose your description is to be expected at level 3. That's the golden day for melee. You also have Concentrated Punch at this point so your accuracy is probably pretty good.

E6 means the game caps at level 6, at which point XP just buys feats. There is a special list of feats that can only be gotten once you hit the Level 6 cap. It's like Epic levels, but lower. The point is that Level 6 is around where casters start being even with mundanes, but it's before where mundanes are worthless.

[SilverSavio]

Stunning Punch (Ex): ... The brawler may use this ability at will, but only once per round. ...


Quick clarification, how does this work? Does it mean that I have declare before the punch that it was stunning or can it be after the punch has been thrown?

[NeoSeraphi]

Quick clarification, how does this work? Does it mean that I have declare before the punch that it was stunning or can it be after the punch has been thrown?

You must declare before you throw your punch.

[YouLostMe]

Neo, I'll be honest, I've passed this class six or seven times going "oh, great, another brawler class". I finally checked once I saw discussion had hit four pages, and I am truly amazed.

It has moxie, it's tactical (to a simple degree), and it's consistently balanced.

Personally, I'd like to see some more out-of-combat flavor abilities like "+2 on knowledge checks to identify a fighting style" or "punch the air to create an extraordinary gust of wind". In addition, I'd love to see a contingent save-booster, since the aggro generated by this guy makes him a walking target, and a earthquake caused by punching the ground.

In other news, I really like it. It's a good intro-class for casual players. Thank you very much.

[NeoSeraphi]

Neo, I'll be honest, I've passed this class six or seven times going "oh, great, another brawler class". I finally checked once I saw discussion had hit four pages, and I am truly amazed.

It has moxie, it's tactical (to a simple degree), and it's consistently balanced.

Personally, I'd like to see some more out-of-combat flavor abilities like "+2 on knowledge checks to identify a fighting style" or "punch the air to create an extraordinary gust of wind". In addition, I'd love to see a contingent save-booster, since the aggro generated by this guy makes him a walking target, and a earthquake caused by punching the ground.

In other news, I really like it. It's a good intro-class for casual players. Thank you very much.

Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, I'm rather happy with the class as a whole (I said a couple of pages ago that the class was finished and I didn't want to make any further changes to it)

I know that it doesn't grant many out-of-combat options, but that was my intention from the very start. (I wanted to make it good at its niche, but not at anything else)

[YouLostMe]

Oh, my bad there. Well, I hope you don't mind me stealing this class, Neo.

[NeoSeraphi]

Oh, my bad there. Well, I hope you don't mind me stealing this class, Neo.

By all means! Enjoy it. Have fun punching people in the face!

[SilverSavio]

After watching Real Steel I believe that you should add into the Races section that Warforge Brawlers are real punching machines.

[NeoSeraphi]

After watching Real Steel I believe that you should add into the Races section that Warforge Brawlers are real punching machines.

WARFORGED? Hell yes! Warforged know how to brawl!

[SilverSavio]

I'm rather happy with the class as a whole (I said a couple of pages ago that the class was finished and I didn't want to make any further changes to it)

I know you said this, but I would like your opinion on a ACF I've been thinking of to try out with my Brawler if/when I reach level 8. You created a very good game mechanic with Concentrated Punch and Angry Brawler is good but doesn't have good synergy with that in my opinion. I might just be a little obsessed with abusing that mechanic though, but not being able to use Counter Punch later while using Angry Brawler is a shame.

The ACF I've been thinking of embraces the Concentrated Punch. Creating instead a Focused Brawler rather than an Angry one.

Focused Brawler would activate Concentrated Punch automatically at it's maximum result (Concentration+20 >= to AC most likely) and would give the Brawler a Damage Reduction equal to (full or half) the insight bonus gained. This state lasts equal to half a Brawlers class levels. After focusing that intently, the Brawler is fatigued.

I think this would fit better with the fluff of allowing himself to be hit but he is focused so much that it doesn't affect him, yet still allow him the benefit of his major class features. I would like to know what you think about this...

I'm also still in the process of working on the Tactical Feat for the Brawler to allow him more to do while his AC=0.

[NeoSeraphi]

I know you said this, but I would like your opinion on a ACF I've been thinking of to try out with my Brawler if/when I reach level 8. You created a very good game mechanic with Concentrated Punch and Angry Brawler is good but doesn't have good synergy with that in my opinion. I might just be a little obsessed with abusing that mechanic though, but not being able to use Counter Punch later while using Angry Brawler is a shame.

The ACF I've been thinking of embraces the Concentrated Punch. Creating instead a Focused Brawler rather than an Angry one.

Focused Brawler would activate Concentrated Punch automatically at it's maximum result (Concentration+20 >= to AC most likely) and would give the Brawler a Damage Reduction equal to (full or half) the insight bonus gained. This state lasts equal to half a Brawlers class levels. After focusing that intently, the Brawler is fatigued.

I think this would fit better with the fluff of allowing himself to be hit but he is focused so much that it doesn't affect him, yet still allow him the benefit of his major class features. I would like to know what you think about this...

I'm also still in the process of working on the Tactical Feat for the Brawler to allow him more to do while his AC=0.

I do not approve of a base class that has both Damage Reduction and regeneration. I'm sorry.

[SilverSavio]

I do not approve of a base class that has both Damage Reduction and regeneration. I'm sorry.

Well this is a rough idea and I'll think on it some more, but I do see what you are saying now. (I really should learn to let ideas be thought upon with a mind that is not tired.)

[SilverSavio]

Alright, after some more thought here is Rough Draft 2.1 of Focused Brawler: Eye of the Tiger


Eye of the Tiger: Some Brawlers get Angry, other get focused. Those that do develop that certain edge, the Eye of the Tiger, the capability to track down and BEAT THEIR OPPONENTS FACE IN rationally.

EotT activates like a Barbarians rage and gives the following bonuses:
+4 Str, +4 Con
The ability to use Concentration checks while focused (raging)
Temp Hp= new Con mod x 1.5 that is not lost first like other Temp Hp

EotT lasts (Cl+Con mod)/2 rounded down and EotT can only be used once per Encounter. Afterwards the Brawler is left (mentally*) fatigued.


Got rid of the DR since that is a weee bit powerful with this base class. Added the stat bonuses and temp hp, and reworded the Concentrated Punch part. So is it balanced as an ACF, or should I work on it some more?

Edit1: Changed the Concentration section

*Bad Joke

[NeoSeraphi]

Alright, after some more thought here is Rough Draft 2 of Focused Brawler: Eye of the Tiger



Got rid of the DR since that is a weee bit powerful with this base class. Added the stat bonuses and temp hp, and reworded the Concentrated Punch part. So is it balanced as an ACF, or should I work on it some more?

*Bad Joke

It's definitely not balanced. "Max Concentration checks"? So suddenly you are giving the Brawler an effective Base Attack Bonus equal to 23+2*level (then he actually makes his attack roll, so 1d20+23+2*level), as well as +2 to his Strength score.

Angry Brawling is supposed to be flavorful. It's supposed to be an alternative to Concentrated Punch, not a supporter of it. You have less chance to hit, but more AC and more damage.

[SilverSavio]

It's definitely not balanced. "Max Concentration checks"? So suddenly you are giving the Brawler an effective Base Attack Bonus equal to 23+2*level (then he actually makes his attack roll, so 1d20+23+2*level), as well as +2 to his Strength score.

Angry Brawling is supposed to be flavorful. It's supposed to be an alternative to Concentrated Punch, not a supporter of it. You have less chance to hit, but more AC and more damage.

The Brawler at lvl 8 can at most have 11 ranks in concentration and if he has a 16 Con (+3), then he most likely can just activate Concentrated Punch and have all the insight bonus granted from having an AC=15 (14+1) on a roll of 1 or greater. Basically it's just a skipping a roll of the dice. And he still has to activate that ability so he can have an AC if he wants. The Brawler is just in the punching zone.

Just to clarify, ConPun can only reduce AC to 0 by how you write the later class feature Counter Punch then that is the minimum, correct?

And where are you getting the 2*level from?

I only know one things for the Brawler that let's him have his level added to his Atk Bonus, BAB, and a brawler has just one of those. Attack rolls normally for my Brawler of lvl 5, Power Attack(0 to 5), Concentrated Punch([1]<=[x]<=[4 to 20]) gives him a hit range:

BAB-----= +5
ConPun-= +11 to +15
Str-----= +4
PA------= -0 to -5

+15 at a min and a +24 at a max.

And at level 8 my brawler will most likely have just a +5 str mod, BAB +8, AC = 16, concentration=16, and Power Attack for:

BAB-----= +8
ConPun-= +16 to +16
Str-----= +5
PA------= -0 to -8

+21 at a min and +29 at max.

These are by your regular mechanics, so how are mine going to be that much unbalanced when All I'm doing is giving a Brawler pass on the ConPun check and a +1 to hit and Damage for a few rounds different then your class feature...


And I just realized after all that my ACF is missing the flavor and workings of a mechanic already made. So I'll dismantle this idea.

[NeoSeraphi]

Snip

2*level+3 is because he has Base Attack Bonus equal to his level and skill ranks in Concentration equal to his level+3. So an 8th level brawler has +19 to hit already, assuming max ranks in Concentration.

The +20 is the problem. It comes from "maxing a brawler's Concentration checks". A Concentration check is a skill check. It's 1d20+level+3. You make it 20+level+3 instead by "maxing" it. Then you add that to his Base Attack Bonus, to make it 20+level+level+3, or +39 for a level 8 brawler. Then he makes his actual attack roll, giving him a total of +40-+59 to hit. At level 8.

Edit: This is ignoring his bonuses to hit from his Strength score and from his Constitution bonus to his Concentration checks.

Edit 2: No, Concentration Punch can drop your AC to below negatives. I meant to say "maximum of 0 AC", I'll change it now.

Edit 3: There was no minimum. I said "no higher than 0". Concentration Punch can drop your AC to as low as the Concentration check makes it. If you make a 30 on your Concentration check with 12 AC, you have -18 AC for the round.

[SilverSavio]

Ah I was simply misunderstanding, and a bit of assuming, how the mechanic of Concentrated Punch worked. With this new understanding then yeah I do get that the idea is broken mechanically.

[SilverSavio]

I've played a couple more games with my Brawler and I have to say that it is working quite well. I get hit constantly due to the DM making characters with nearly max AC (around the 20s mostly) which requires me to use Concentrated Punch.

The most recent game had me and one other party member getting in an arena fight against a couple of homebrewed Acrobats at level 14. Their class allowed them to move a good amount, monk like unarmed damage, and they had a prestige class based around helping each other. And using combat expertise i think it is they could, at their max, they could have a 30 AC.

I used devastating punch a lot this fight to knock the ever loving piss out of them. The other party member did a lot in the fight as well but he got knocked out but I managed to win the fight. I'm just really sad that we won't get a level for that.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ah, Devastating Punch. Nothing quite like the loud crunch of bones that echoes in your mind when you confirm a critical hit with a punch to the face.

Don't worry, Silver. Soon you'll have Power Word: Punch, and then you won't need to use Concentrated Punch quite so often.

[SilverSavio]

I'm mostly annoyed that a different party member interfered with the fight at the end after I won and knocked me out. And I wished that I had someone betting on us because the odds were at 60 to 1 in favor of the Acrobats.

Edit: I've been thinking about a cheesy thing for the Brawler. If one built it with Improved unarmed strike for the rest of his body, could you take Multiweapon Fighting?

[SilverSavio]

Mechanical Question here: Does the bonus from Concentrated Punch affect grappling rolls at all?

I'm thinking I could help with the touch attack, but I don't know about the actual grapple checks.

[NeoSeraphi]

Mechanical Question here: Does the bonus from Concentrated Punch affect grappling rolls at all?

I'm thinking I could help with the touch attack, but I don't know about the actual grapple checks.

It would help you with the touch attack, but no, not with the grapple check at all.

[SilverSavio]

Thanks I thought that was how it worked, but wanted to double check.

And I would like some input on version 2.[Whatever] of the Tactical Feat I'm working on, and I would like your opinions on it.

[No Proper Name Yet]- Prerequesists: BAB +6, Concentrated Punch, Power Attack


Power Punch - Can trade insight bonus gained from Concentrated Punch, up to the user's BAB, while Power Attacking.

Ring Their Bell - With a concentration check AC <= 0 then a user's punches become almost irresistible. The Stunning Punches DC = 10+Damage Dealt.

Jab Grab - While AC <= 0 then the user may make an attack roll (regular, not touch attack) to initiate a grapple check without provoking AoO.

My main goal with this feat is to provide the Brawler, and ex-Brawlers, with a bit more stability with Concentrated Punch. Hopefully I have produced that here. If not I might be missing a key idea behind tactical feats...

[NeoSeraphi]

[No Proper Name Yet]- Prerequesists: BAB +6, Concentrated Punch, Power Attack


Power Punch - Can trade insight bonus gained from Concentrated Punch, up to the user's BAB, while Power Attacking.

Ring Their Bell - With a concentration check AC <= 0 then a user's punches become almost irresistible. The Stunning Punches DC = 10+Damage Dealt.

Jab Grab - While AC <= 0 then the user may make an attack roll (regular, not touch attack) to initiate a grapple check without provoking AoO.

My main goal with this feat is to provide the Brawler, and ex-Brawlers, with a bit more stability with Concentrated Punch. Hopefully I have produced that here. If not I might be missing a key idea behind tactical feats...

First of all, Power Punch is already always active. You gain a bonus to your attack rolls, then you add your BAB to that, so you take your total attack bonus (let's say it's +38), and apply -10 to it. It doesn't matter whether the -10 is coming from your insight bonus from Concentrated Punch or your BAB.

Edit: Unless...you're making it STACK with Power Attack? In that case, it's a decent feat, but it's kind of troubling. I mean, if you have no bonus to your attack rolls from Concentrated Punch or your BAB, you probably won't hit that often...I suppose it's pretty balanced.

Jab Grab- There is already a feat like this called Scorpion's Grasp (It's in Sandstorm, I believe), only better, because it has weaker prerequisites and allows you to keep a light weapon in your hand (which you normally can't do) and attack with that instead of your unarmed strikes, if you like.

Ring the Bell is alright.

[SilverSavio]

Yes I was meaning for the the insight and BAB to attack damage to stack. I just forgot to do that on there. The main reason for wanting to do it that way is that THF gets a player a 2:1 ratio when Power Attacking, but I didn't want to just straight up implement the same thing since it's not.

Then that is when I thought of just sacrificing Concentrated Punch insight bonus. There is, on average I think, a decent amount of it that can be sacrificed for damage.

I just took a look at Scorpion's Grasp, and it is indeed better than Jab Grab. It is a full fledged feat requiring Improved Grapple, IUS, and Str 13. So I think Jab Grab is the right bang for this buck here.

[NeoSeraphi]

Yes I was meaning for the the insight and BAB to attack damage to stack. I just forgot to do that on there. The main reason for wanting to do it that way is that THF gets a player a 2:1 ratio when Power Attacking, but I didn't want to just straight up implement the same thing since it's not.

Then that is when I thought of just sacrificing Concentrated Punch insight bonus. There is, on average I think, a decent amount of it that can be sacrificed for damage.

I just took a look at Scorpion's Grasp, and it is indeed better than Jab Grab. It is a full fledged feat requiring Improved Grapple, IUS, and Str 13. So I think Jab Grab is the right bang for this buck here.

Still, Jab Grab is a little, simple, for a Tactical feat. Most Tactical feats require more effort, like "You Power Attack for at least this much this round, and then next round you Bull Rush" or something.

[SilverSavio]

Oh alright, then I will think more on it. Thank you very much for the input tonight.

[Veklim]

Quantum Punch Defense

Nuff sed. I don't think I've laughed that hard for quite some time!

Love the class, can't wait for a DM who'll let me play one. This is BDF in essentia right here, makes fighters look like scholars and barbarians seem cultured!

[NeoSeraphi]

Nuff sed. I don't think I've laughed that hard for quite some time!

Love the class, can't wait for a DM who'll let me play one. This is BDF in essentia right here, makes fighters look like scholars and barbarians seem cultured!

Why thank you, though I can't take credit for Quantum Punch Defense. That was Kellus's idea (you can see it if you scroll through the comments)

[Deth Muncher]

Well, I'm totally using this. I was trying to come up with a punch-oriented class for my players for a game concept I'm trying and...yep. This is it. The Quantum Punch Defense is hilarious, and everything in it just seems pretty...right. The ONLY thing I'm sad about is that you don't have ANY kind of Flurrying option, though I know the spirit of this class is to land good, solid punches and not a cloud of weaker ones.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, I'm totally using this. I was trying to come up with a punch-oriented class for my players for a game concept I'm trying and...yep. This is it. The Quantum Punch Defense is hilarious, and everything in it just seems pretty...right. The ONLY thing I'm sad about is that you don't have ANY kind of Flurrying option, though I know the spirit of this class is to land good, solid punches and not a cloud of weaker ones.

If you want to flurry, you can take Two-Weapon Fighting and its sequels. And thank you, I'm very proud of how this particular piece turned out.

[Deth Muncher]

If you want to flurry, you can take Two-Weapon Fighting and its sequels. And thank you, I'm very proud of how this particular piece turned out.

Oh. Durr. You have a point. And you're welcome!

[SilverSavio]

Alright after some more thinking I have come up with some more modifications to my tactical feat and would like some input on it.

I am a Man!- Prerequesists: BAB +6, Concentrated Punch, Power Attack
In those times when you want to confuse your enemy and punch their guts out. Call upon the power of manly punching, even if you are a woman.

Power Punch - On your action, before making attack rolls for a round and using Concentrated Punch, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus times two (BABx2). The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Ring Their Bell – With a Concentrated Punch check greater than or equal to AC (Concentration + d20 >= AC), your punch can echo loudly through your opponent’s head. The Stunning Punches DC = 10+Damage Dealt.

Charging Up Your Punches – If you successfully hit a person while Power Attacking with a minimum modifier of -10 to your attack bonus. On your next round you can make a charging attack, even if you are standing still.

[NeoSeraphi]

That seems great! Works out really well.

[SamBurke]

Have a player who is playing this in a game. See sig.

He is awesome.

[NeoSeraphi]

Have a player who is playing this in a game. See sig.

He is awesome.

Thanks for the feedback. DeAnno's Beast is a good class, glad to see those two combined for some major Con-based smackdown. (It's like the ultimate tank combined with the ultimate glass-cannon with the additional bonus of Hulk fluff)

[SilverSavio]

I've been thinking about how fun the Brawler is and wondering if it can blend with it's cousin the monk. Then I remembered the Ascetic class feats from Complete Adventurer and that is when I created this feat.


Ascetic Fist

You have gone beyond the bounds monastic training to incorporate new ways to beat people, namely by punching them in the face. Your fellow monks may frown upon this brutality you now show, but they can't argue thanks to the fact that they are unconscious.

Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Punch Them in the Face

Benefit: If you have levels in brawler and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining all your unarmed strike damage. For example, a human 4th-level brawler/1st-levelmonk would deal 1d8 points of damage with her unarmed strike and 2d10 points of punching damage.

In addition, you can multiclass freely between the monk and brawler classes. You must still remain lawful in order to retain your monk abilities and take monk levels. You still face the normal XP penalties for having multiple classes more than one level apart.

Special: Due to the nature of your new fighting style, you can take the MultiWeapon Fighting Feat.
I like the idea that an unarmed fighter should be able to use multiple strikes in one round naturally. But the special part of the feat might be a bit off base here.

[NeoSeraphi]

I've been thinking about how fun the Brawler is and wondering if it can blend with it's cousin the monk. Then I remembered the Ascetic class feats from Complete Adventurer and that is when I created this feat.


Ascetic Fist

You have gone beyond the bounds monastic training to incorporate new ways to beat people, namely by punching them in the face. Your fellow monks may frown upon this brutality you now show, but they can't argue thanks to the fact that they are unconscious.

Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Punch Them in the Face

Benefit: If you have levels in brawler and monk, those levels stack for the purpose of determining all your unarmed strike damage. For example, a human 4th-level brawler/1st-levelmonk would deal 1d8 points of damage with her unarmed strike and 2d10 points of punching damage.

In addition, you can multiclass freely between the monk and brawler classes. You must still remain lawful in order to retain your monk abilities and take monk levels. You still face the normal XP penalties for having multiple classes more than one level apart.

Special: Due to the nature of your new fighting style, you can take the MultiWeapon Fighting Feat.
I like the idea that an unarmed fighter should be able to use multiple strikes in one round naturally. But the special part of the feat might be a bit off base here.

No, sorry, I can't endorse this. If you reread the unarmed strike feature carefully...


The brawler does not qualify as a monk and cannot receive "bonus damage" for items that would advance a monk's damage. He does not receive any benefit from the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, or any Prestige class that advances the unarmed damage of a monk. The monk and the brawler fight completely differently, and the discipline that monk classes utilize does not assist the brawler's power in any way.

The brawler is not a swordsage or a monk or a sacred fist or anything like that. He's a street thug. With abilities like Angry Brawling and Bone-Breaking Punch, he's not a disciplined priestlike character. The monk is a defensive, passive class, while the brawler is an aggressive action-oriented class. They are not meant to be combined.

[SilverSavio]

The brawler is not a swordsage or a monk or a sacred fist or anything like that. He's a street thug. With abilities like Angry Brawling and Bone-Breaking Punch, he's not a disciplined priest like character. The monk is a defensive, passive class, while the brawler is an aggressive action-oriented class. They are not meant to be combined.

Seems like a false dichotomy there to me. Also does this mean that everyone should disregard the Ascetic Rogue feat because a Rogue is not priestly? How about the monk who gets better at hunting animals? That doesn't seem very priest like there. And then there is the monk who cultures the ability to bend the fabric of reality, instead of attaining peace of mind. Should those concepts not have been mixed?

The monk and the brawler are two separate classes, but so are all the others I listed. Punch Them in the Face would not get all the perks of the monks Unarmed Strike still but it would allow the monk to be more aggressive and actually damage some people. The monk who takes this can be like Ip Man with the Wing Chun style. A defensive yet still hard hitting style.

[NeoSeraphi]

Seems like a false dichotomy there to me. Also does this mean that everyone should disregard the Ascetic Rogue feat because a Rogue is not priestly? How about the monk who gets better at hunting animals? That doesn't seem very priest like there. And then there is the monk who cultures the ability to bend the fabric of reality, instead of attaining peace of mind. Should those concepts not have been mixed?

The monk and the brawler are two separate classes, but so are all the others I listed. Punch Them in the Face would not get all the perks of the monks Unarmed Strike still but it would allow the monk to be more aggressive and actually damage some people. The monk who takes this can be like Ip Man with the Wing Chun style. A defensive yet still hard hitting style.

Hey, it's up to you, of course. I just wouldn't allow that feat if I was running the game. I don't agree with most feats that combine classes who don't mesh well thematically, like Devoted Performer.

This class wasn't made with multiclassing in mind. It's meant to stand on its own. Adding progression to another class with different abilities is..well, it's just not something I support, at all.

[SilverSavio]

Hey, it's up to you, of course. I just wouldn't allow that feat if I was running the game. I don't agree with most feats that combine classes who don't mesh well thematically, like Devoted Performer.

This class wasn't made with multiclassing in mind. It's meant to stand on its own. Adding progression to another class with different abilities is..well, it's just not something I support, at all.

All good points. This idea was crafted though on the idea of combining two unarmed combatants because one of them needs all the help it can get, namely the monk.

[NeoSeraphi]

All good points. This idea was crafted though on the idea of combining two unarmed combatants because one of them needs all the help it can get, namely the monk.

If you're looking for something that has the defensive capabilities of the monk while still retaining a decent offense, I recommend the Elemental Slayer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208292). Cipher basically made it by taking the monk and the battle dancer and shoving them together, so it's much better than the original.

Honestly, if you're already into homebrew material you'd be better off using a monk fix than trying to merge the PHB monk with another class.

[SilverSavio]

Honestly, if you're already into homebrew material you'd be better off using a monk fix than trying to merge the PHB monk with another class.

Pretty true words there. To each there own I guess.

[SilverSavio]

Felt like I should come in and give an update on how my brawler experience has been so far. I'm hitting things and being steam rolled even without using Concentrated Punch. Non-standard wealth by level is hard on the AC since we are 6th level and only have 600 gp as well as being in a non-magic world. It's been an interesting experience so far.

I'm expecting to get hit a lot now in group fights, and am trying to work the character in the group (now if only the fights weren't ambushes since I can't spot them). And the best moments when this character shines is when he is facing a singular opponent. The class features you used work well to disable and drain opponents hp quickly.

There have been some concerns raised over the fact that I can stun every round. Also I think I've got a disgruntled a party member in that I can hit him at his highest AC value of 40. I don't know his build other than he has combat reflexes and vow of poverty most likely.

[NeoSeraphi]

There have been some concerns raised over the fact that I can stun every round. Also I think I've got a disgruntled a party member in that I can hit him at his highest AC value of 40. I don't know his build other than he has combat reflexes and vow of poverty most likely.

Yeah, Stunning Punch is a bit much. However, it's not really that different from a caster putting out a spell every round, though that's more of a high-level thing. It's a very concerning ability, but on the other hand, uses per day would just ruin it and add too much bookwork to an otherwise extremely straightforward class.

Still, I hope you're enjoying the brawler and all it has to offer.

[SilverSavio]

I'm enjoying it immensely. Especially when I can use leaping punch, which I am calling Shoryuken. I disabled a BBEG by damaging him 59 points, stunning, and knocking him down. Certainly it is a fun melee chassis.

[Soliloquy]

Class Features


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A brawler is proficient with his unarmed strikes. He is considered to be ambidextrous for the purposes of his main and off hand, which means no matter which hand he's attacking with, he deals full damage. The brawler may not perform an unarmed strike with any part of his body other than a closed fist, however, he may treat each of his fists as a separate weapon and therefore use them to qualify for the Two-Weapon Fighting feats. The brawler is proficient no other weapons, and with no armor or shields.

Punch Them in the Face (Ex): A brawler is able to deal lethal damage with his unarmed strikes. He is considered to have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for the purposes of qualifications and prerequisites. The brawler must take the -4 penalty to deal nonlethal damage with his fists, as he has trained them as a weapon only, unlike a monk. The brawler deals a base damage of 1d10 plus his Strength modifier on all unarmed strikes. His fists are treated as light and one-handed weapons, which ever is more beneficial to him in any situation. The brawler's unarmed damage increases by 1d10 for each five levels he gains (2d10 at level 5, 3d10 at level 10, etc) to a maximum of 5d10 at level 20. Additionally, starting at level 5 the brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as magic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. The brawler does not qualify as a monk and cannot receive "bonus damage" for items that would advance a monk's damage. He does not receive any benefit from the Superior Unarmed Strike feat, or any Prestige class that advances the unarmed damage of a monk. The monk and the brawler fight completely differently, and the discipline that monk classes utilize does not assist the brawler's power in any way.

The brawler may not make unarmed strikes if he is wearing armor or subject to medium or higher encumbrance.

The brawler's unarmed strikes are considered natural weapons. They are not manufactured weapons and cannot be enhanced by effects that do not enhance natural weapons.
Interesting, more powerful in damage than the monk, but you wanted that.


Deceptive Stance (Ex): The brawler can bob and weave a lot faster than his direct approach stance leads others to believe. While the brawler is unarmored, unemcumbered, and not flat-footed, he adds his ranks in Bluff as a dodge bonus to his AC, to a maximum of his Brawler class level.
So at first level +1 and at 20th a +12. That's fine.


Stunning Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists are devastating weapons. When he punches someone in the face, they stay punched in the face. If the brawler successfully hits with an unarmed strike, he may force the target to make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 his class level+ his Strength modifier) or be Stunned for 1 round. The brawler may use this ability at will, but only once per round. Stunning Punch does not qualify for, nor can power Stunning Fist feats or prestige class abilities.
So, it's like stunning fist but better.


Concentrated Punch (Ex): The brawler does not hide behind armor, nor does he attempt to dodge incoming blows.But above you gave a dodge bonus...

This brutal frontal assault gives the brawler a deadly advantage in combat. As a free action, but only once per round during his turn, the brawler may make a Concentration check. He subtracts the result from his AC and adds it as an insight bonus to his attack rolls for the round. This penalty and bonus last until the beginning of his next turn.
Wait, so... you basically get an auto-hit with this (assuming full ranks, and no strength bonus, and a ten on concentration checks at first level you get a average of +15 when using this. at fifth level, +23, at tenth, + 33, at fifteenth, +43, and at twentieth, +53.:smalleek: give or take about 10 for rolls, + strength. You don't miss. Ever.:smallmad:


Leaping Punch (Ex): Few things are scarier than a guy charging at you with his fist up. A guy charging at you with his fists up and then leaping into the air and curbstomping your face into the dirt is one of those things.
But, they can only use closed fist...:smallannoyed:

When a brawler charges an enemy, he can make a DC 20 Jump Check. If he succeeds, he leaps into the air (ignoring difficult terrain) and comes crashing down on his enemy. He deals double damage with his unarmed strike and his opponent must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+damage dealt) or fall prone in the brawler's square. Additionally, if the brawler's unarmed strike was a Stunning Punch, its DC increases by 2 as long as the Jump check was successful. If the brawler fails his Jump check, he does not leap into the air and deals no extra damage.

Defensive Punch (Ex): A brawler knows when the last hit is coming, and he knows he needs to get out of the way. A brawler whose health is below half of its maximum may make a Defensive Punch. As a full-round action, the brawler may make an attack roll, and take a penalty on the attack roll, up to his Base Attack Bonus. He receives the penalty as an insight bonus to his AC for the round, whether his punch hit or not. The brawler may not use this ability during the same turn as Concentrated Punch, nor may he use it while raging, frenzying, or while using the Angry Brawling ability.

Right Back At Ya (Ex): You know what they say: if you can't handle the heat, you should probably get very far away very quickly before a brawler sees you shooting at him from a distance like a little pansy. Starting at level 5 a brawler can use a free action to swat a projectile out of the air that's aimed at him. This requires an opposed attack against the projectile's initial attack roll. If he succeeds, the projectile is neutralized. However, if he then spends an immediate action he can redirect the projectile back at its original launcher. This is a ranged attack roll, but it uses his Strength instead of his Dexterity. There are no range increment penalties for this attack.

At level 5 this can only be used on nonmagical ammunition and thrown weapons. At level 10 a brawler can hit back magical ammunition and thrown weapons as well as magical attacks that require attack rolls, such as rays. Finally, at level 15 this can be used against siege weapons, such as a ballista bolt or a cannonball.
Wait, if a giant throws a boulder at you,and you neutralize it, but don't deflect it, wouldn't it crush you?:smallconfused:



Devastating Punch (Ex): A brawler doesn't thrown out a bunch of little hits and hope the target goes down. He stands his ground and throws a single, meaningful punch that flattens his opponent's face. As a full-round action, the brawler may make a single attack roll at his highest attack bonus. If it hits, he treats it as if he threatened a critical. (If he actually threatened a critical with his attack roll, he instead automatically confirms it). Additionally, if the brawler makes a Stunning Punch with this ability, he increases the DC for it by 2.

Shattering Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists, they are made of steel. Or adamantine, as the case may be. The brawler's fists ignore hardness during Sunder attempts.

Angry Brawling (Ex): Because the brawler lacks discipline, his fists can deliver deadly blows that the monk can't even dream of. Wait, that doesn't make any sense...

The brawler gains the rage ability as a barbarian of 1st level, but he can use it once per encounter. He never gains any additional uses of it, or increased stat bonuses. It does not count as rage for the purpose of feats, qualifications, or stacking with actual barbarian levels. The brawler may rage and Angry Brawl at the same time, if he has both of the abilities.

Counter Punch (Ex): Hey, that jerk just hit you with his sword! You should punch him in the face! Yeah, like that!...Is he still breathing? No? Good. By concentrating completely, the brawler leaves himself completely defenseless, but gains immense power. The brawler may only use the Counter Punch ability when he is hit by a melee attack by a foe within range of his unarmed strike while his AC is no higher than 0. He may make a single unarmed strike against the target, and may use any of his full-round punch techniques to do it.
does this take an attack of opportunity? Because it should


Deadly Knuckles (Ex): There's something to be said about training for 10 levels with your own body as a weapon. And that is, you get better at it. The brawler's critical multiplier for his unarmed strikes increases to x3.

You Call That a Punch? (Ex): The brawler gets cut, but he doesn't bleed. He takes a spear in his gut and just starts laughing. He's a monster who can't be stopped by swords alone. Starting at 10th level, the brawler gains the regeneration ability. His form of regeneration only applies to damage from physical sources, and is overcome by all forces of magical energy (but not magic weapons). He heals a number of nonlethal hit points of damage per round equal to his Constitution modifier. Additionally, because his anatomy has become almost completely impenetrable by normal weapons, a creature who attempts a Sneak Attack against the brawler must make a character level check. The DC is the brawler's character level +11. If the attacker succeeds, he deals Sneak Attack damage as nonlethal damage, even though Sneak Attack damage cannot be nonlethal unless the weapon deals nonlethal damage. If the attacker fails the check, its weapon deals normal nonlethal weapon damage with no bonus Sneak Attack damage. (This defense applies even if the brawler is unaware of the attack, even if he is unconscious or helpless.)
magic weapons don't do it? So, he is immune to fighters who don't use energy weapons?


Power Word: Punch (Ex): The harder you hit them, the easier it becomes to hit them. As a full-round action, a brawler may target a creature within reach for a single melee attack with his unarmed strike. If that creature's hit points are less than 101, the brawler automatically hits them with his unarmed strike.
But you already can hit them fine.


One-Two Punch (Ex): The brawler has mastered the classic follow-up punch. As a standard action, the brawler may make two melee attacks with his unarmed strike against the same foe. The first at his highest attack bonus, the second with a -5 penalty.

Wounding Punch (Su): The brawler's fists leave scars that continue to bleed. Both of the brawler's fists gain the wounding property.
Wait, what?:smallmad: this is getting ridicules. You never miss, you never die, and it's wounding?


Deceptive Punch (Ex): The brawler's attacks are usually too angular for a creature to miss spotting them, but against particularly stupid creatures, the brawler can attempt some finesse and dish out some extra damage. If the brawler successfully uses the Feint in Combat action, he deals double damage with his first attack roll against the creature he feinted against with his next unarmed strike (as long as the creature is still flat-footed when he makes it).
And now if you feint, you do twice your already absurd damage.


Knock-Back Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists carry weight with them. Whenever the brawler deals at least 10 damage with an unarmed strike, the creature he struck moves back 5 feet for each 10 points of damage he dealt with the single strike. If the brawler is making more than one attack this round, he may choose to have only the last punch that hits push them back.
Can he turn this off? does damage stack for knockback?


Quantum Punch Defense (Ex): When you're up against an expert brawler you're either already punched or you're about to be punched. Really the only question is when. Starting at level 15, a brawler's enemies are simultaneously both punched and not punched, and only the brawler can collapse this waveform (if you know what I mean). Whenever a brawler is attacked in melee combat he can activate this ability as an immediate action to declare that he actually punched that guy earlier in the fight. He can make a full attack against them right now, and if that kills them the brawler is safe from the initiating attack roll.
Whenever? So now, he can attack and never miss, do absurd damage, and if you attack him he can counter with a full attack? and it doesn't use attacks of opportunity or anything? And if you don't die he can use counter punch too?!! Does cover apply?



Knock-Down Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists push weaker foes down with ease. When the brawler deals at least 10 damage with a single unarmed strike, he may make a Trip attempt as a free action against that creature without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. For each 10 points of damage he dealt, the brawler is treated as one Size category larger than he is for this Trip Attempt (To a maximum of Colossal+, see the Draconomicon). If the brawler has the Improved Trip feat, he gets his automatic attack if the Trip is successful.
You can only trip someone one size category smaller than you... so you lose the ability of tripping smaller things.


Bone-Breaking Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists shatter nerves and break bones. If the brawler successfully Stuns a Stunned creature with his Stunning Punch (the creature failed two saving throws in a row), the creature becomes paralyzed for 5 rounds instead (no save).
Taking advantage of unlimited stunning.



Jaw-Breaking Punch (Ex): The brawler knows that even though a wizard can take a few punches by now, he still has a glass jaw. As a full round action, the brawler may make a single unarmed strike attack at his highest attack bonus. If he hits, the creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+damage dealt) or have its jaw broken. The creature loses the ability to speak, and all spells with verbal components automatically fail, until the creature receives magical healing equal to the full amount of damage the brawler's Jaw-Breaking Punch dealt.

Weakening Punch (Ex): The brawler's fists leave natural defenses shattered in his wake. Any creature who takes at least 10 points of damage from the brawler's unarmed strike loses 10 points of energy resistance, DR, or natural armor (chosen by the brawler after this ability is confirmed) for 1d4 rounds. This can reduce any of these values to 0, but not less than 0, and cannot affect supernatural Damage Reduction (but can affect extraordinary Damage Reduction). A consecutive hit does not stack, but resets the duration.

Fists of the Gods (Ex): What, you want a capstone? You spent 20 levels learning how to punch things! You just punch things really really well! The brawler's fists ignore all forms of damage reduction and resolve as melee touch attacks instead of normal melee attacks. They are also treated as objects of force and can Sunder force objects and hit incorporeal creatures.

All damage reduction? wow. And touch attacks? but, you all ready get over +40 to hit at this point. and if they have less then 101 hp auto-hit

And hit incorporeal? So... his weakness is two or more mages attacking from the air while invisible. Otherwise he will almost always win.
He is overpowered.

[ScrambledBrains]

Interesting, more powerful in damage than the monk, but you wanted that.
So at first level +1 and at 20th a +12. That's fine.
So, it's like stunning fist but better.
But above you gave a dodge bonus...
Wait, so... you basically get an auto-hit with this (assuming full ranks, and no strength bonus, and a ten on concentration checks at first level you get a average of +15 when using this. at fifth level, +23, at tenth, + 33, at fifteenth, +43, and at twentieth, +53.:smalleek: give or take about 10 for rolls, + strength. You don't miss. Ever.:smallmad:

But, they can only use closed fist...:smallannoyed:
Wait, if a giant throws a boulder at you,and you neutralize it, but don't deflect it, wouldn't it crush you?:smallconfused:
Wait, that doesn't make any sense...
does this take an attack of opportunity? Because it should
magic weapons don't do it? So, he is immune to fighters who don't use energy weapons?
But you already can hit them fine.
Wait, what?:smallmad: this is getting ridicules. You never miss, you never die, and it's wounding?
And now if you feint, you do twice your already absurd damage.
Can he turn this off? does damage stack for knockback?

Whenever? So now, he can attack and never miss, do absurd damage, and if you attack him he can counter with a full attack? and it doesn't use attacks of opportunity or anything? And if you don't die he can use counter punch too?!! Does cover apply?
You can only trip someone one size category smaller than you... so you lose the ability of tripping smaller things.

Taking advantage of unlimited stunning.


All damage reduction? wow. And touch attacks? but, you all ready get over +40 to hit at this point. and if they have less then 101 hp auto-hit

And hit incorporeal? So... his weakness is two or more mages attacking from the air while invisible. Otherwise he will almost always win.
He is overpowered.

:smallannoyed: HE IS TIER 4. He can fight and that's it. THAT IS NOT OVERPOWERED.

[SilverSavio]

...snip...

Wait, so... you basically get an auto-hit with this (assuming full ranks, and no strength bonus, and a ten on concentration checks at first level you get a average of +15 when using this. at fifth level, +23, at tenth, + 33, at fifteenth, +43, and at twentieth, +53.:smalleek: give or take about 10 for rolls, + strength. You don't miss. Ever.:smallmad:

...snip...

To address this point. I'm play testing this class and you are right in that this may as well be an auto hit, but for that auto-hit you have a neon 'Hit Me!!!' sign over your head. Hell with how low my AC has gone a bird crapping 50 yards away could critically hit me with his droppings.

[Soliloquy]

First, that's not how crits work.
Second, later I address how you can then do full attacks when attacked, plus one. Also, there is no limit to this per round. As for "He can fight and that's it. THAT IS NOT OVERPOWERED." that is the stupidest thing I have yet to read on this site:smallmad:. Not being able to do anything but fight does not give you permission to do whatever you want with it. He can deflect anything ranged that uses an attack roll back at the sender. Compare it to other classes that can fight and that's it. I'm not saying that it's impossible to kill him. I am just saying it's too hard.

[ScrambledBrains]

First, that's not how crits work.
Second, later I address how you can then do full attacks when attacked, plus one. Also, there is no limit to this per round. As for "He can fight and that's it. THAT IS NOT OVERPOWERED." that is the stupidest thing I have yet to read on this site:smallmad:. Not being able to do anything but fight does not give you permission to do whatever you want with it. He can deflect anything ranged that uses an attack roll back at the sender. Compare it to other classes that can fight and that's it. I'm not saying that it's impossible to kill him. I am just saying it's too hard.

Insulting me is not helping your argument.

Further:

Any number of spells defeats him handily.
Range defeats him beyond the initial arrow/ballista/whatever
Flying beats him.
Invisibility beats him.
Anything that needs magic to be defeated stops him.
He can't deal with traps beyond enduring them.
Any of the 'Symbol of...' spells would stop him.
He has no skills in a non-combat scenario.

Ergo, he is the typical Tier 4, and thus not overpowered.

[SilverSavio]

First, that's not how crits work.
Second, later I address how you can then do full attacks when attacked, plus one. Also, there is no limit to this per round. As for "He can fight and that's it. THAT IS NOT OVERPOWERED." that is the stupidest thing I have yet to read on this site:smallmad:. Not being able to do anything but fight does not give you permission to do whatever you want with it. He can deflect anything ranged that uses an attack roll back at the sender. Compare it to other classes that can fight and that's it. I'm not saying that it's impossible to kill him. I am just saying it's too hard.

First, that was a joke.

Second, it's not full attacks he can do with Counter Punch. he can use his techniques to do so, but just one attack. Also his AC has to be crappy to do so.

Third, it probably does need to be clarified in the class feature how many times a round he can deflect ranged attacks. But he can only redirect one attack since a brawler has only one immediate action.

Fourth, It is really easy to chew this class' health up and spit it out. I took 63 (out of 70) points of damage in one round after using Concentrated Punch.

[Soliloquy]

Quantum punch defense (QPD) is what I was referring to, and they stack, even so, he can deflect anything that uses ranged attacks, even spells. That is true, but QPD means that each time your hit, do another instant hit attack, dead? no damage!

"Range defeats him beyond the initial arrow/ballista/whatever"
That "whatever" includes spells. and you send it back at the sender. Fighters and other melees can't do it. He also has defensive capabilities for when out of melee. (deceptive stance)
"Flying beats him."
No more then range,
"Invisibility beats him."
Well, actually, it is just a 50% miss chance. with his abundance of attacks, it's not a big deal
"Anything that needs magic to be defeated stops him."
Yes. He is not a caster. Although he is not affected by Damage reduction, and not much needs magic to kill.
"He can't deal with traps beyond enduring them."
or dodging. or not going first. There is really only one thing that can "deal with traps" rogues (and rogue-likes).
"Any of the 'Symbol of...' spells would stop him."
Yes, area affects are his weakness.
"He has no skills in a non-combat scenario."
no he does not. How does that differ from other fighters?

"Ergo, he is the typical Tier 4, and thus not overpowered."
Yeah, here is what I was talking about. You say that because he has weaknesses he is no stronger than others with those weaknesses. Which is ridiculous. If you move everything down five levels, nothing you said stops working. Does that mean he would be no more powerful? You have to look at his strengths as well as his weaknesses.

[ScrambledBrains]

Quantum punch defense (QPD) is what I was referring to, and they stack, even so, he can deflect anything that uses ranged attacks, even spells. That is true, but QPD means that each time your hit, do another instant hit attack, dead? no damage!

"Range defeats him beyond the initial arrow/ballista/whatever"
That "whatever" includes spells. and you send it back at the sender. Fighters and other melees can't do it. He also has defensive capabilities for when out of melee. (deceptive stance)
"Flying beats him."
No more then range,
"Invisibility beats him."
Well, actually, it is just a 50% miss chance. with his abundance of attacks, it's not a big deal
"Anything that needs magic to be defeated stops him."
Yes. He is not a caster. Although he is not affected by Damage reduction, and not much needs magic to kill.
"He can't deal with traps beyond enduring them."
or dodging. or not going first. There is really only one thing that can "deal with traps" rogues (and rogue-likes).
"Any of the 'Symbol of...' spells would stop him."
Yes, area affects are his weakness.
"He has no skills in a non-combat scenario."
no he does not. How does that differ from other fighters?

"Ergo, he is the typical Tier 4, and thus not overpowered."
Yeah, here is what I was talking about. You say that because he has weaknesses he is no stronger than others with those weaknesses. Which is ridiculous. If you move everything down five levels, nothing you said stops working. Does that mean he would be no more powerful? You have to look at his strengths as well as his weaknesses.

His strength is that he has a lot of attacks for a lot of damage, as well as a once/ROUND ranged redirection and a melee block in the form of QPD. This doesn't block a single smidge of what a Tier 1 or 2 could do, and even Tier 3s generally have out of combat skills, which this class does not. Tell me, do you complain about Uberchargers as well? Or ToB? Cause if you think the Brawler is bad, you'd probably blow your lid over them.

[SilverSavio]

His strength is that he has a lot of attacks for a lot of damage, as well as a once/ROUND ranged deflection and a melee block in the form of QPD. -snip-

Not to really take his side, but as written 'Right Back at Ya' is a free action to deflect and an immediate action to redirect. There probably should be a clarification as to how many deflections per round he should have.

[ScrambledBrains]

Not to really take his side, but as written 'Right Back at Ya' is a free action to deflect and an immediate action to redirect. There probably should be a clarification as to how many deflections per round he should have.

Ah. My bad. Let me adjust my original post.

[Soliloquy]

His strength is that he has a lot of attacks for a lot of damage, as well as a once/ROUND ranged redirection and a melee block in the form of QPD. This doesn't block a single smidge of what a Tier 1 or 2 could do, and even Tier 3s generally have out of combat skills, which this class does not. Tell me, do you complain about Uberchargers as well? Or ToB? Cause if you think the Brawler is bad, you'd probably blow your lid over them.

Well, this is more powerful than an Ubercharger, but as for ToB, yes, actually, I do. However, my biggest complaint with that is that...
they do not belong in 3.5. Per encounter powers are a 4e thing, and i do not like them. They do not follow the theme of 3.5, and do not work well with the system.
But my problem is exactly what you said. "even Tier 3s generally have out of combat skills" They made it more powerful, but only in combat. It is important to compare it to other classes that can be affected by AoE and weak to flying. And it is stronger than them. It is a melee specialist with more power than existing melee specialists.

[ScrambledBrains]

Well, this is more powerful than an Ubercharger, but as for ToB, yes, actually, I do. However, my biggest complaint with that is that...
they do not belong in 3.5. Per encounter powers are a 4e thing, and i do not like them. They do not follow the theme of 3.5, and do not work well with the system.
But my problem is exactly what you said. "even Tier 3s generally have out of combat skills" They made it more powerful, but only in combat. It is important to compare it to other classes that can be affected by AoE and weak to flying. And it is stronger than them. It is a melee specialist with more power than existing melee specialists.

There is not a single thing wrong with ToB in 3.5 at all. I wish I had played one right from the start of my first campaign. However, as that is not the issue here, I will refrain from discussing it more.

As for more power than existing melee specialists, that was the point. Melee sucks in 3.5 for the most part, and this class was Seraphi making a class that was a little better. As I have stated, this class has no response to social skill challenges or stealth skill challenges or fighting magic or anything along those lines. It IS a powerful melee combatant, that much is true, but that was the intent. It's called the Brawler for a reason after all. You can't judge a class based solely on martial power. Better than the Fighter and the like? Yes. Better than Tier 4? No.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wait, so... you basically get an auto-hit with this (assuming full ranks, and no strength bonus, and a ten on concentration checks at first level you get a average of +15 when using this. at fifth level, +23, at tenth, + 33, at fifteenth, +43, and at twentieth, +53.:smalleek: give or take about 10 for rolls, + strength. You don't miss. Ever.:smallmad:


Well, that's not true. Miss chance, flight, invisibility, Abrupt Jaunt, there are plenty of times you can't hit. You just don't miss people who are only guarded by AC, assuming you max your ranks in Concentration. Also, it tanks your AC into negatives. And it uses a swift action.



But, they can only use closed fist...:smallannoyed:


You can curbstomp someone with a fist. Jump in the air and then slam it right down in their face. They will eat curb. From your fist.



Wait, if a giant throws a boulder at you,and you neutralize it, but don't deflect it, wouldn't it crush you?:smallconfused:

No, you just shatter the boulder. Your fists are adamantine by that point, they can break rock like its nothing already.



does this take an attack of opportunity? Because it should

Sure. I'll fix that.



magic weapons don't do it? So, he is immune to fighters who don't use energy weapons?


That would be the point of regeneration, yes. Pretty much any creature who has regeneration is immune to melee.



But you already can hit them fine.


See above. Auto-hit ignores all miss chances, including blink, displacement, cloak of concealment, mirror image, etc.



Wait, what?:smallmad: this is getting ridicules. You never miss, you never die, and it's wounding?


Indeed. But other than wounding, you don't get any cool enchantments, without a prestige class or something.



And now if you feint, you do twice your already absurd damage.


Yes, but Bluff isn't a class skill for you. Feinting for a Brawler is pretty much impossible, except someone who has no BAB and no Wisdom. (So, maybe a low-level orc or something). It also takes cross-class skill investment. So...yeah. Feinting is a trap for this class.




Can he turn this off? does damage stack for knockback?

Yes, he can turn this off.



Whenever? So now, he can attack and never miss, do absurd damage, and if you attack him he can counter with a full attack? and it doesn't use attacks of opportunity or anything? And if you don't die he can use counter punch too?!! Does cover apply?


Dunno, I didn't write that ability, it was suggested to me by someone else in the thread.



You can only trip someone one size category smaller than you... so you lose the ability of tripping smaller things.


Indeed. An interesting trade-off.



All damage reduction? wow. And touch attacks? but, you all ready get over +40 to hit at this point. and if they have less then 101 hp auto-hit


You don't auto-hit if they have less than 101 hit points. It takes a standard action, which means you don't get a full-attack (Also you lose One-Two Punch if you've moved already). So...yeah. Most players would rather just rely on Concentrated Punch than Power Word: Punch for their standard action attacks. Power Word: Punch is to deal with casters.



And hit incorporeal? So... his weakness is two or more mages attacking from the air while invisible. Otherwise he will almost always win.
He is overpowered.

Or archers. Or being swallowed whole. Or a dragon breathing fire on him. Or a medusa, petrifying him. Or a vampire, draining his Con. Or any of the other ways creatures kill people without melee.

D&D is not PVP. You fight monsters, not other characters (generally speaking). Immunity to melee is not immortality.

[SilverSavio]

Well, that's not true. Miss chance, flight, invisibility, Abrupt Jaunt, there are plenty of times you can't hit. You just don't miss people who are only guarded by AC, assuming you max your ranks in Concentration. Also, it tanks your AC into negatives. And it uses a swift action.


Err...The action cost is off there.



Concentrated Punch (Ex): -snip-As a free action, but only once per round during his turn, -snip-

[NeoSeraphi]

Err...The action cost is off there.

Ah, whoops. I'll change it to a swift action, thanks.

[SilverSavio]

I've been thinking some more on how the flavor of this class is for me. And it tastes like a mix of power, reflexes, and punching skills. Leading me to think about an ACF for Deceptive Stance.

Eye of the Tiger (Ex): The brawler just has a sense of where attacks are going thanks to his vast experience of fighting. While focusing, a brawler can minimize the damage or avoid a hit he sees coming. While the brawler is unarmored, unencumbered, and not flat-footed, he adds his ranks in Concentration as a dodge bonus to his AC, to a maximum of three fourths (¾) his Brawler Class level (minimum = 1). Anytime when you cannot use the Concentration skill as well as anytime you use Concentrated Punch, you lose the dodge bonus from Eye of the Tiger.


What do you think?
Edit: Good Idea

[NeoSeraphi]

I've been thinking some more on how the flavor of this class is for me. And it tastes like a mix of power, reflexes, and punching skills. Leading me to think about an ACF for Deceptive Stance.

Eye of the Tiger (Ex): The brawler just has a sense of where attacks are going thanks to his vast experience of fighting. While focusing, a brawler can minimize the damage or avoid a hit he sees coming. While the brawler is unarmored, unencumbered, and not flat-footed, he adds his ranks in Concentration as a dodge bonus to his AC, to a maximum of three fourths (¾) his Brawler Class level (minimum = 1). Anytime when you cannot use the Concentration skill, you also lose the dodge bonus from Eye of the Tiger.


What do you think?

Sure, seems reasonable. Only ends up being +15 at level 20, as opposed to the +11 from Deceptive Stance. Though I would add a clause saying it is lost whenever you use Concentrated Punch, since Concentrated Punch requires you to shift your focus from defense to attack.

[Kellus]

@Soliloquy:

Just noticed this, and I should probably interject on balance issues, since I wrote the 'Right Back At Ya' and 'Quantum Punch Defense' class features that you're having trouble with.

Right Back At Ya is essentially a modified form of the Deflect Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows) feat, with a few notable differences. Unlike the normal Deflect Arrows, it can be used any number of times per round (as a free action). To compensate for this, an opposed attack roll is required instead of 'Hahaha I win' like the normal feat. The other main difference is that as the brawler advances he can use it to deflect other kinds of projectiles; most importantly for balance concerns, this includes ranged attack rolls for spells.

I can totally understand why you might be worried about this sort of thing, but take a moment to consider the astronomical number of spells that don't require ranged attack rolls to succeed. This ability gives the brawler very limited (always at least a 5% chance of failing even if he totally outclasses the provoking attack roll) protection from targeted projectiles, which are only one form of possible ranged attack. It gives him nothing to protect against SoS's, SoD's, or area effects, right off the top of my head. Maybe the raymaster isn't as awesome against him as against someone else: who cares?

The other main thing to keep in mind is that to redirect the attack requires an immediate action, which the brawler only gets one of every round. It's not like he's tossing out unlimited pain or anything, he's just harder to take down at range than you might like. It's almost like he forces you into getting up close and personal, like a brawler would want. :o

Moving on to the QPD, it's essentially a last-resort defense. If you really really don't want to take a hit, and the enemy attacking you is almost dead, you can try to retroactively remove him from the fight. Barring these very specific circumstances, you've probably got better stuff to do with your immediate action. Again, remember that you only get one immediate action per turn.

Hope that helped clear things up about this excellent class!

[Veklim]

This is why there's such a gap between mundane and magic classes. You make a bunch of spells which do this class' features as effects and nobody bats an eyelid. You make them class features for a mundane class and everyone goes 'HEY! That's just crazy!'

Face/palm

We're all doomed.....

[NeoSeraphi]

I edited Right Back At Ya to be usable once per round at 5th, twice per round at 10th, and three times per round at 15th.

[Soliloquy]

@Soliloquy:

Just noticed this, and I should probably interject on balance issues, since I wrote the 'Right Back At Ya' and 'Quantum Punch Defense' class features that you're having trouble with.

Moving on to the QPD, it's essentially a last-resort defense. If you really really don't want to take a hit, and the enemy attacking you is almost dead, you can try to retroactively remove him from the fight. Barring these very specific circumstances, you've probably got better stuff to do with your immediate action. Again, remember that you only get one immediate action per turn.

Hope that helped clear things up about this excellent class!

Wait, did you mean it so that if you don't kill them, they don't take damage? I didn't get that.

"this class was Seraphi making a class that was a little better."
well, more than a little.
If your idea was to make it more powerful than existing melee, then you succeeded. I was judging it as a normal 3.5 class, with a different flavor. :smallredface: It is more powerful than standard melee, and I thought that would be a problem. If it isn't, fine.

As for "D&D is not PVP. You fight monsters, not other characters (generally speaking). " A valid point, but class levels are not unheard of, and even if you don't kill other players, you compete. If I was a standard Fighter or Barbarian with one of these in my party, I would not have fun.

[NeoSeraphi]

As for "D&D is not PVP. You fight monsters, not other characters (generally speaking). " A valid point, but class levels are not unheard of, and even if you don't kill other players, you compete. If I was a standard Fighter or Barbarian with one of these in my party, I would not have fun.

I absolutely agree with you. It is my firm belief that if you're playing in a game that allows homebrew, everyone should either play a homebrew class or a more powerful WotC class, just so that they don't feel overshadowed. The general point of homebrew is to make classes that are stronger than the Core classes, as well as not as boring. If I was playing in a game and the group had a cleric, a barbarian, and a rogue, I wouldn't say "Let me try my brawler", I would probably grab a bard or a paladin or something. But if the group is allowing homebrew, and someone is playing Jiriku's fighter fix, another person is playing Kellus's Truenamer, and a third person is playing a wizard, I'd be all over that with my brawler, and no one would feel weak or useless.

[SilverSavio]

In the latest game I used my Brawler in he got hit a bunch by Thri-Keen Rogues dealing a metric crap load of non-lethal damage, and I thought about using defensive punch but my HP wasn't low enough. So how does defensive punch work in regards to taking non-lethal damage?

[NeoSeraphi]

In the latest game I used my Brawler in he got hit a bunch by Thri-Keen Rogues dealing a metric crap load of non-lethal damage, and I thought about using defensive punch but my HP wasn't low enough. So how does defensive punch work in regards to taking non-lethal damage?

Considering that the class gains regeneration (turning half of the damage you take into nonlethal), it works pretty well, I'd say.

Defensive Punch- When your HP is below half. Nonlethal damage can reduce your max HP to below half, same as lethal. Just knocking you out instead of killing you. But it's the same deal.

[Qwertystop]

Considering that the class gains regeneration (turning half of the damage you take into nonlethal), it works pretty well, I'd say.

Defensive Punch- When your HP is below half. Nonlethal damage can reduce your max HP to below half, same as lethal. Just knocking you out instead of killing you. But it's the same deal.

Actually, nonlethal doesn't quite work that way. When your nonlethal is higher than your HP, you are knocked out, but nonlethal doesn't actually reduce your HP. It's a separate pool.

[SilverSavio]

Actually, nonlethal doesn't quite work that way. When your nonlethal is higher than your HP, you are knocked out, but nonlethal doesn't actually reduce your HP. It's a separate pool.

Which is why I was asking the question because I would think I should have been able to use it in that circumstance. Maybe have defensive punch work without the below half condition, or add the condition that if non-lethal rises above half it can activate.

[Qwertystop]

Which is why I was asking the question because I would think I should have been able to use it in that circumstance. Maybe have defensive punch work without the below half condition, or add the condition that if non-lethal rises above half it can activate.

I think the latter would work.

[Soliloquy]

"The general point of homebrew is to make classes that are stronger than the Core classes, as well as not as boring."
Well, I always thought that it was more for variety and the like but either one works.

And for the more recent stuff, "if non-lethal rises above half it can activate."
Half what?:smallconfused: full HP or current HP?

Because those would be very different.

Or alternatively you could just have them stack for this purpose.

[SilverSavio]

Or alternatively you could just have them stack for this purpose.

Stack how?

I am thinking that the original condition for defensive punch could stay but add the condition of "if non-lethal damage rises above half of current HP then..."

[NeoSeraphi]

Fixed the wording on Defensive Punch to make it work with nonlethal.

[Doorhandle]

"The general point of homebrew is to make classes that are stronger than the Core classes, as well as not as boring."
Well, I always thought that it was more for variety and the like but either one works.

.

Well, to make fighterlike-, rougelike- and monklike- clases more powerful. It's the wizardy types that are normally nerfed. :smalltongue:

[Soliloquy]

Heh, yeah. You can really do both. Which is why I generally prefer 3/4s homebrews. More room for flavor, less for changing power level.

[NeoSeraphi]

Heh, yeah. You can really do both. Which is why I generally prefer 3/4s homebrews. More room for flavor, less for changing power level.

Hey! I have made plenty of flavorful full BAB homebrew. Like the knight, or the abyss striker, or the hell rager, or the barbarian, or the fanatic. :smallsmile: Not to mention all my cool full-BAB PrCs.

Full-BAB doesn't necessarily mean powerful. (Though generally 3/4ths BAB are the weakest classes. See also the rogue.) It's those 1/2 BAB classes with their fancy spellcasting that you need to watch out for.

[Soliloquy]

It's not that people don't give it flavor, but
1. More room, as more power can be given to specials.
and
2. I just like the kind of flavor better.
so just personal bias.

[Kellus]

It's not that people don't give it flavor, but
1. More room, as more power can be given to specials.
and
2. I just like the kind of flavor better.
so just personal bias.

Full Base Attack Bonus isn't worth nearly as much as you think it is. And in any case, the fundamental statistics of a class have very little to do with its feel, its mechanics, or the novelty of what it can actually do.

I'm curious how you would describe power level and "specials" for homebrews. What have you made?

[SinsI]

If his most crucial defensive ability (defensive stance) depends on Bluff, it should be his class skill.
Also, his unarmed damage dice - shouldn't it change with his size?

[SilverSavio]

If his most crucial defensive ability (defensive stance) depends on Bluff, it should be his class skill.
Also, his unarmed damage dice - shouldn't it change with his size?

I agree and don't at the same time with the bluff part, but with the Unarmed damage dice we discussed that at some point in the thread I believe.

[NeoSeraphi]

If his most crucial defensive ability (defensive stance) depends on Bluff, it should be his class skill.

Like hell. A brawler is not a thief or a coward. He's not good at lying or being deceptive. His entire class is based around being a straightforward, no-nonsense beatstick. His most crucial defensive ability is certainly not Deceptive Stance, it's You Call That a Punch?, since converting all physical damage to non-lethal will save his life countless times more than a small bonus to AC.

A class-based bonus to AC that caps at 23 is unbalanced, absurd, and will give you a ridiculous amount of extra WBL over the rest of your party, while a class-based bonus to AC that caps at 11 will make you just barely better than the guy who invested a +5 bonus in his mithral breastplate.

This guy's AC is supposed to be 0, at all times, and he's certainly not a liar.

[Soliloquy]

About bluff, it is not a class skill because that would make the defensive stance too powerful.

And I am, for extra irony, currently working on a homebrew with full BAB.

[Kane0]

On right back at ya: Can a free action be performed on another's turn? I was under the belief that immediate actions were for other people's turns?

[SinsI]

Like hell. A brawler is not a thief or a coward. He's not good at lying or being deceptive. His entire class is based around being a straightforward, no-nonsense beatstick. His most crucial defensive ability is certainly not Deceptive Stance, it's You Call That a Punch?, since converting all physical damage to non-lethal will save his life countless times more than a small bonus to AC.

A class-based bonus to AC that caps at 23 is unbalanced, absurd, and will give you a ridiculous amount of extra WBL over the rest of your party, while a class-based bonus to AC that caps at 11 will make you just barely better than the guy who invested a +5 bonus in his mithral breastplate.

This guy's AC is supposed to be 0, at all times, and he's certainly not a liar.
He might be bad at lying, be he must be good at feinting.
There are more than enough ways of removing that limitation, so all this does is make you waste a feat to get that +10 AC (at max level).
And it caps at 20, not 23.
If anything limits that bonus, it is his tiny amount of skill points per level.

[NeoSeraphi]

He might be bad at lying, be he must be good at feinting.
There are more than enough ways of removing that limitation, so all this does is make you waste a feat to get that +10 AC (at max level).
And it caps at 20, not 23.
If anything limits that bonus, it is his tiny amount of skill points per level.

Yes, you can waste a feat to get it, and also waste skill points (of which this guy has few) in order get a boost to your AC when your main features drop your AC to 0 every round. But you probably won't be doing too well there.

Personally, I wouldn't bother putting any ranks in Bluff, I would ignore Deceptive Stance and just Concentrated Punch every round.


On right back at ya: Can a free action be performed on another's turn? I was under the belief that immediate actions were for other people's turns?


Free actions are free. They require no time at all. So yes, you can use free actions on other people's turns, unless it says otherwise.

[SilverSavio]

I can't believe it took me this long to realize this, but this base class can be one of the deadliest AoO builds I think. Mostly because of one class feature.


Counter Punch (Ex): Hey, that jerk just hit you with his sword! You should punch him in the face! Yeah, like that!...Is he still breathing? No? Good. By concentrating completely, the brawler leaves himself completely defenseless, but gains immense power. The brawler may only use the Counter Punch ability when he is hit by a melee attack by a foe within range of his unarmed strike while his AC is no higher than 0. He may make a single unarmed strike against the target, and may use any of his full-round punch techniques to do it. This ability consumes one of the brawler's attacks of opportunity for the round.

The bold text lets the Brawler hit those that hit him every time they hit him, while the underlined allow the Brawler to basically get 2 hits or 3 after lvl 10 since he can use Devastating Punch. Basically letting the Brawler deal 9d10+3*Str Mod per AoO spent at lvl 10. That just seems awesomely vicious.

[NeoSeraphi]

I can't believe it took me this long to realize this, but this base class can be one of the deadliest AoO builds I think. Mostly because of one class feature.

The bold text lets the Brawler hit those that hit him every time they hit him, while the underlined allow the Brawler to basically get 2 hits or 3 after lvl 10 since he can use Devastating Punch. Basically letting the Brawler deal 9d10+3*Str Mod per AoO spent at lvl 10. That just seems awesomely vicious.

It's just one hit per round, though. Unless you take Combat Reflexes, which requires you to have a 13 in a dump stat, and is powered by a dump stat.

The AoOs can be vicious, but it only works when you're getting hit. That means you're taking damage, which puts you closer to being dropped. It's basically like a class feature version of Roliar's Gambit, and the fact that you have to take damage in order to use it balances it out.

Still, only one AoO per round for most builds will generally mean that Counter Punch deals as much damage as the brawler's normal attack on his own turn. It's good, but there are better things you can do with a full round punch than just more damage.

[SilverSavio]

The AoOs can be vicious, but it only works when you're getting hit. That means you're taking damage, which puts you closer to being dropped. It's basically like a class feature version of Roliar's Gambit, and the fact that you have to take damage in order to use it balances it out.

Still, only one AoO per round for most builds will generally mean that Counter Punch deals as much damage as the brawler's normal attack on his own turn. It's good, but there are better things you can do with a full round punch than just more damage.

By your own advice the Brawler should ConPunch every round therefore leaving him open to a boat load of damage anyway. But built right, with Diehard, and at level 10 the Brawler becomes unafraid of melee and wary of magic users.

At level 15 the Brawler seems to scoff at those that wish to try and exchange blows since he can basically get two Robilar's Gambits off, since QPD is immediate and Counter Punch is AoO, against one melee attack towards the Brawler a round.

And onto the topic of better things to do with FR punch...there is only more damage. By admission of the class, Dex and Int are dumps so Combat Expertise is a trap along with Improved Trip and Improved Grapple.

Now let's look at his Class Feature Punches that are Full-Round actions:
Leaping Punch good for closing, not so good next to the person
Devastating Punch(one of the main cannon balls for this class
Power Word:Punch which is good when you wish to have some AC modesty
Jaw-Breaking Punch which is a very late game ability
And that's it.

Not enough skill points to matter really inside or outside of combat. There is some utility with his punches to break things, instead of faces, by taking Improved Sunder which will make the other party members happy because everyone loves broken equipment to not be used against them and be sold at a greatly reduced price.

I would mention Stunning Punch, but after a while it has the same problems as the Monks Stunning Fist since it has such an easy DC to overcome unless you work the DC up. Although there are not that many options that spring to mind for the Brawler since SP is not SF and cannot benefit from the great support that SF has behind it other than ability focus.

The Brawler is a well built glass cannon with no battlefield control other than "Punch Them in the Face" from where I'm sitting. My 2 cp on ideas I've been thinking of how to fortify this cannon slightly is to ditch Deceptive Stance in favor of DR = Brawler Level that gets traded in for Regen = Brawler Level at level 10, and replace Angry Brawler with something that sets the Massive Damage DC equal to 1/2 Damage Dealt or 15+Brawler Level. But hey what do I know...

[NeoSeraphi]

Knock Back Punch and Knockdown Punch are both examples of good battlefield control. An automatic trip attempt whenever you hit for more than 10 damage is really strong, especially when you use it with Counter/Devastating Punch. Then you get to deal a lot of damage as well as send someone crashing to the ground, and stun them if you used a Stunning Punch.

As for Stunning Punch's DC, since the DC is Str-based rather than Wis-based it's easier to pump. A brawler at level 20 will probably have around 40 Str (18 base +2-4 racial +5 level +5 inherent +6 enhancement +4 Angry Brawling [though if you're using Angry Brawling you can't use Counter Punch]) which means the DC for saves against his Stunning Punch will be 35-37. 37-39 if the brawler spends a feat on Ability Focus. Even with a +12 bonus to your saving throw from 20 levels in a Full-Fort class, it's still not easy to make. You'd need a Constitution score of at least 36 in order to be able to save 50% of the time. The tarrasque has a Constitution score of 35. See what I'm getting at here?

[Veklim]

I have to agree with Seraphi on this one, the DC for Stunning Punch is fine, if anything it's a bit high by later levels, but certainly not broken. With regards to the glass cannon aspect, this class doesn't worry about that too much, because it's meant to be able to deal with most problems by just hitting things REALLY hard so they can't hurt you back too much. This is appropriate, and shouldn't be messed with. The idea of getting regen equal to class level is broken beyond belief btw, DR equal to class level is bad enough and the Brawler needs neither to survive anyhow!

[NeoSeraphi]

Indeed. Regeneration equal to your Constitution modifier is fine. Regeneration's main feature is transforming most damage into nonlethal damage, the amount of nonlethal you heal per round is really kind of irrelevant. The main point is, unless the brawler is fighting a spellcaster, he simply cannot be killed. It might take him a long time to stand back up, but he will get back up.

[SilverSavio]

Sigh...I really shouldn't try to think while tired because I only come up utter crap ideas...

Knock-Back and Knock-Down look absolutely fun to use. To bad the Brawler has to wait for 3/4's his career for battlefield control, but better late then never. I like where Knock-Down is on the class, but could Knock-Back be given any sooner? How does the Knock-Backed enemy interact with other enemies that they run into? I assume they move in a straight line away from the Brawler and if there is another enemy within that line, what happens? Do they have to make some kind of Reflex save? Do they take any sort of damage? What if they run into a wall or something?

[NeoSeraphi]

Sigh...I really shouldn't try to think while tired because I only come up utter crap ideas...

Knock-Back and Knock-Down look absolutely fun to use. To bad the Brawler has to wait for 3/4's his career for battlefield control, but better late then never. I like where Knock-Down is on the class, but could Knock-Back be given any sooner? How does the Knock-Backed enemy interact with other enemies that they run into? I assume they move in a straight line away from the Brawler and if there is another enemy within that line, what happens? Do they have to make some kind of Reflex save? Do they take any sort of damage? What if they run into a wall or something?

I believe all of that is covered in the rules for Bull Rushing. I could be remembering wrong though.

You're right, though. I should push Knock-Back up. I think I'll make it a 3/encounter use ability at a lower level and then have its current place become at-will. Sound good?

[SilverSavio]

I believe all of that is covered in the rules for Bull Rushing. I could be remembering wrong though.

You're right, though. I should push Knock-Back up. I think I'll make it a 3/encounter use ability at a lower level and then have its current place become at-will. Sound good?

By the SRD entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#bullRush), nope nothing is mentioned on how to handle an enemy being bull rushed into other things. If I remember right that is in Dungeon Crawler's class features.

And that does sound awesome.

[SilverSavio]

I've been thinking on how Leaping Punch would interact with Knock-Back Punch and have come up with these possibilities.

1) Fort save passed: The Opponent goes a distance away equal to number generated for KBP

2a) Fort Save failed: The Brawler and the Opponent go the same distance away from where the opponent started. Since the opponent gets knocked back, but must also fall prone in the Brawler's square by RAW of LP. Then the Brawler gets to enemy surf effectively.

2b) Fort Save failed: The opponent goes a distance away and lies prone. The Brawler just stands there after being a bad mofo.

How would you rule these things work together Seraph?

[Soliloquy]

I vote enemy surfing.
And rules for attacking other enemies while doing it.

[NeoSeraphi]

As a fan of Prototype, I admit that there should always be more enemy surfing

[Morph Bark]

Not having played or seen anything beyond the trailers of Prototype, I still also agree that more enemy-surfing is a good thing.

Right Back At Ya can reflect bullets as-is. Interesting fact.

Also, considering the naming scheme of all the class features of the Brawler, it might as well be named the Punchmaster. :smalltongue:

[NeoSeraphi]

Also, considering the naming scheme of all the class features of the Brawler, it might as well be named the Punchmaster. :smalltongue:

YES! :biggrin: Ill fix that when I get my comp fixed

[SilverSavio]

I don't know why but for the last couple of days I have been wondering what a Prestige class for the Brawler, or possibly soon the Punch Master, allowing them to cast magic spells. Preposterous you say, but I think one of the only spells that they should be able to cast would be obvious...FIST!!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7RosIoQisA)

[Soliloquy]

Make a PrC for enemy surfing. I still can't get over how cool that is.

[SilverSavio]

Knock-Back Punch (Ex): ... the creature he struck moves back 5 feet for each 10 points of damage he dealt ...

I'm about to be high enough level to get this with my Brawler and I would like a clarification on a couple of points here:

Is the direction of knock back set by drawing a line between the Brawler and the target?

If not then:

Can the target only move horizontally away from the Brawler? Can the target be knocked back straight up into the air(vertical knock back)? Can there be a mix of horizontal and vertical knock back?

[Codemus]

Well as written it seems to imply the knockback is strictly horizontal. Though I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to amend the ability to allow (or deny) vertical movement.