3.5: Building a character concept -- The Kung-Fu Wizard

[NNescio]

So, I'm somewhat taken in with the idea of a Kung-Fu Wizard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KungFuWizard) right now.

The obvious build is simply Arcane Swordsage 20. Which is broken and won't fly under most sane DMs, while being utterly boring to play.

A more practical one would probably be a Wizard/Unarmed Swordsage/Abjurant Champion/Jade Phoenix Mage. Any ideas on how to flesh out this build?

[Coidzor]

You might want to consider Wu Jen as an alternative to wizard on that gish base, since it's a wizard with some more gish-friendly spells that it has that wizard doesn't have, and goes even better with the kung fu angle. Body Outside of Body (get a bunch of non-casting clones, really friendly to taking Incarnum feats on the side or certain other things like reserve feats, IIRC) and Giant Size are great for gishes, even ones that use their fists and faces.

[NNescio]

*Flip* *Flip* *Flip*

Oh my, Body Outside Body looks fun. They still have my spell slots; they just can't cast them. Thanks for the heads up.

It'll be better if I can somehow get WRT in.

[Eldariel]

You could make an Unarmed Swordsage and Tashalatora it with Ardent (amusingly enough, neither Monastic Training or Tashalatora requires Monk-levels and since you basically get Monk UA Strike with UA SS, you should be able to advance it just fine).

Gets you 4 levels of UASS painlessly and up to 7 while still maintaining 9th level Powers eventually; sprinkled into the build this would get you far and 6 levels of UA SS would get you 8th level maneuvers too. And 20th level Monk abilities. Psionics seems way more appropriate for a Kung-Fu Wizard than Arcane Casting since the trope generally involves self-affecting magic and such that tends to be closer to Psionics than Arcane Magic.

[Coidzor]

*Flip* *Flip* *Flip*

Oh my, Body Outside Body looks fun. They still have my spell slots; they just can't cast them. Thanks for the heads up.

It'll be better if I can somehow get WRT in.

White Raven Tactics? Martial Study feat or an item of it?

[Prime32]

You could make an Unarmed Swordsage and Tashalatora it with Ardent (amusingly enough, neither Monastic Training or Tashalatora requires Monk-levels and since you basically get Monk UA Strike with UA SS, you should be able to advance it just fine).

Gets you 4 levels of UASS painlessly and up to 7 while still maintaining 9th level Powers eventually; sprinkled into the build this would get you far and 6 levels of UA SS would get you 8th level maneuvers too. And 20th level Monk abilities. Psionics seems way more appropriate for a Kung-Fu Wizard than Arcane Casting since the trope generally involves self-affecting magic and such that tends to be closer to Psionics than Arcane Magic.This sounds like a good idea.

Otherwise you could try a duskblade with Superior Unarmed Strike, though that's a bit less cast-y.

[Telonius]

Is Wiz5/Monk1/Enlightened Fist9/Abjurant Chamipon5 too obvious an option?

[Kaeso]

Is Wiz5/Monk1/Enlightened Fist9/Abjurant Chamipon5 too obvious an option?

+1, though I prefer sorcerer instead of wizard so you can take the ascetic mage feat, reducing your MAD.

[The Rabbler]

out of curiosity, why is it that arcane swordsage is broken as hell? I've only ever seen it referenced two other times on these boards and each time it was accompanied with either a :smallamused: or a :smallwink:. What actually makes it OP?

[Telonius]

out of curiosity, why is it that arcane swordsage is broken as hell? I've only ever seen it referenced two other times on these boards and each time it was accompanied with either a :smallamused: or a :smallwink:. What actually makes it OP?

It has 3/4 BAB, a d6 hitdie, and 25 spells known, which is fairly powerful as-is. The OP-ness comes from a fairly cheesy reading of the line that says those spells are cast as if they were martial maneuvers. Note that Maneuvers are recoverable.

[dextercorvia]

out of curiosity, why is it that arcane swordsage is broken as hell? I've only ever seen it referenced two other times on these boards and each time it was accompanied with either a :smallamused: or a :smallwink:. What actually makes it OP?

The suggestion is that you can pick a spell instead of maneuver. Spells are balanced (poorly) on the notion that they can be used a limited number of times per day. They were very (perhaps too) careful when they picked the ones that a Warlock could spam. There is no discussion of what is appropriate for a Swordsage to spam.

[Telonius]

The suggestion is that you can pick a spell instead of maneuver. Spells are balanced (poorly) on the notion that they can be used a limited number of times per day. They were very (perhaps too) careful when they picked the ones that a Warlock could spam. There is no discussion of what is appropriate for a Swordsage to spam.

Well, they do suggest spells only from Abjuration, Transmutation, and Evocation, touch and personal range. But that still leaves an awful lot of room to wiggle. The ability to spam Haste, Keen Edge, or (gods help you) Polymorph is ridiculous.

[NNescio]

White Raven Tactics? Martial Study feat or an item of it?

Well, it does require one other White Raven manoeuvre as a prereq, 'though that's achievable with a bit more investment.


Is Wiz5/Monk1/Enlightened Fist9/Abjurant Chamipon5 too obvious an option?

Nice, 'though I have a fondness for manoeuvres, and there's more MAD class features. Still, as Kaeso suggested, using Sorc as the base would cut down the MAD significantly.

[Evil the Cat]

I'd think going wizard and taking either carmendine monk or kung fu genius would be a better way of reducing MAD.

[The Rabbler]

telonius and dex: wow. I never even thought of that. that's... ridiculous.

[Darth Stabber]

I was thinking wu jenX/warbladeY/Jade pheonix mageZ/blahblahblahN. Warblade is already int based, and you don't have to burn anything for white raven stuff. Sure you don't get int/dex/wis to ac, but you do get IHS, and that is never a bad thing, plus you have the best manuever recovery mechanic. Just make sure that you are doing the armed type of kung fu.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, Wu-Jen/Warblade/Jade Phonenix Mage/whatever sounds pretty good for what you want. I would personally take wizard over wu-jen because I prefer Japanese flavor to chinese flavor and Wu-Jen is very much Chinese-fluffed. However, since Kung-Fu was put in the thread title I would take it you don't care if it's more Chinese then Japanese in which case I'd definelty go Wu-Jen over wizard simply because the Chinese fluff PERFECTLY fits with a "Kung-Fu mage."

Personally, though, my favored build for a "melee mage" is the Duskblade/Ur-Priest using the 3rd party feat lost traditions for less MAD. After the second Ur-Priest level I usually go into contemplative for whatever domains I want...that build, however is less "kung-fu mage" and more "unholy dark knight" as you fight in armor with a sword(Ur-Priest is divine so if you want good armor you just cast only your divine magic. With duskblade you can cast your few arcane spells in lighter armor too.) I used that build to play an evil prince in a game a while back and it was quite fun. Nothing puts a smile on your face like channeling slay living and Harm through your weapon.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, they do suggest spells only from Abjuration, Transmutation, and Evocation, touch and personal range. But that still leaves an awful lot of room to wiggle. The ability to spam Haste, Keen Edge, or (gods help you) Polymorph is ridiculous.

Yeah, and the fact that fireball an be justified as similar to desert wind means you can just spam fireball all day (combine arcane swordsage with unarmed swordsage, give it fireball, lightning bolt, a refluffed fly, and a spell turning that you only use against things that deal electric damage, and you have a firebender).

The big ones, though, are the things like time stop and shapechange.

[NNescio]

I was thinking wu jenX/warbladeY/Jade pheonix mageZ/blahblahblahN. Warblade is already int based, and you don't have to burn anything for white raven stuff. Sure you don't get int/dex/wis to ac, but you do get IHS, and that is never a bad thing, plus you have the best manuever recovery mechanic. Just make sure that you are doing the armed type of kung fu.

That's a dead ringer for a sword-wielding Chinese sorcerer straight out of a Wu Xia novel... which is just positively awesome.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Master of the East Wind from Dragon 314 grants 10/10 spellcasting and Monk abilities, with 3/4 BAB and good Will save. It requires Ki Strike Magic, 3rd level arcane spells, Climb 10 ranks, and either LG or LN alignment.

Use Kung-Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk, and go Monk 1/ Wizard 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 10 and end up with 18th level Wizard spellcasting, 16th level Monk unarmed strike, AC, and movement, and +12 BAB (+14 fractional). You could also switch Wizard for Sorcerer and get Ascetic Mage at 6th level, though it's not really playable in the earlier levels. Not the strongest build, not even a decent gish, but it's probably the best you can do for monk abilities plus arcane spellcasting in a single build.

[kharmakazy]

I'm playing an arcane swordsage now (gestalted with warblade) and he is easily outshined by the rest of the party, and I didn't even stick to the suggested spell schools.

The trick is to stick mostly to utility spells with a light peppering of combat stuff. The DM should personally ok Each spell you learn, but since you won't know that many it's not too time consuming.

My 7th level list has like.. shield, blacklight, shrink item, snakes swiftness -mass, Mountain Stance, glitterdust, baleful transposition, etc.

Basically I only get to cast each readied spell (6 at level 7) once per combat unless I want to waste a full round doing nothing, which I have never done once... it's just not worth it.

edit: ECL 7, swordsage levels 6

It has a warlocky invocation feeling without those pesky unlimited range touch attacks...