[3.5] Level Adjustment in "by feel" level up system

[Darwin]

Hi Playgrounders. I've recently run into a problem when I allowed one of my players to play a githzerai character in my current sandbox game. Up until now we've run with a "by feel" level system, where I level up the group as a whole whenever it feels right to do so, but the system has not been without it's kinks. First of all, how do I handle level adjusted characters like the gith player? Until now I've been treating the level adjustments as levels, and not allowed buy-off but I'm not sure that's going to going to work out as well when we reach the higher levels. I'm definitely not going back to the regular experience system present in 3.5, I like controlling the flow 100% myself, but I need some advice for handling that little wrinkle.

Bonus question(s)!

So far none of my players has shown interest in item crafting and spells with experience costs, but when they do, what do I do?

[Shpadoinkle]

The easiest solution is to simply use the XP system as written, which I STRONGLY recommend. I know it might look like a bookkeeping nightmare, but seriously, it's not. Just write down the challenges the PCs overcame ("disabled CR 4 trap" or "defeated 6 orcs") and figure out the XP after the session ends, and you can call or email everybody the next day to tell them how much XP their characters gained.

Barring that, for the purposes of item crafting and such... Have players total up their levels (i.e. a fighter1/cleric 4 is a fifth level character, so that would be 5+4+3+2+1 = 15) and multiply that but some number (100 is a nice round number) and treat that as 'reserve points,' similar to the kind artificers get. They can use their reserve points for crafting magic items, but can't use it to level up, and it doesn't impact their level progression.

As for characters with LA? That's a good question. First thing that comes to mind is to let them sacrifice 1,000 reserve XP to buy off the first level of their LA, 2,000 to buy off the second level, etc. If you don't want to do that, I'd say maybe every two or three levels the rest of the PCs get, he 'skips' one and instead gets two levels at once until he's caught up.

[Darwin]

I've been running the experience system as printed for years and I can tell you that it IS a bookkeeping nightmare for our group. Thing is, we do rotating DMs because we're lucky enough to have nearly all members of the group eager to DM for us. However, a lot of these DMs are new players and to hold a bit of the load for them, I (as the "main" DM and most veteran player) keep track of experience and a few other things. Adding a system of crafting points has been on my mind, but I'd rather not add more subsystems to the game than it currently has.

On another tangent:
An idea for a crafting system that doesn't use XP could be to use negative levels as payment. A player could simply take on negative levels to pay for magic creating/xp costs. These levels would obviously not be cureable and would decrease by level at a fixed rate.

[Shpadoinkle]

... I really can't understand what's so difficult about the person designated to do so writing down "defeated 6 CR 1/4 goblins" or whatever as it happens then tallying it up later. Could you possibly expand on WHY this is such a nightmare for your group?

[137beth]

@darwin:
If you've been keeping all the PCs at the same level, instead keep them at the same ECL. So if a player has LA+1 and no racial HD, keep them one level below the rest of the party.

@Shpadoinkle: I've played a similar level system to yours ("I think you've fought enough to level up now"), and it works (this is without level adjustments, though). I like the xp system also, but that doesn't mean you should try to convince people that xp is the one and only way to track levels. Just like some people prefer different editions/combat systems, some people prefer something simpler than tracking xp.

[pffh]

Barring that, for the purposes of item crafting and such... Have players total up their levels (i.e. a fighter1/cleric 4 is a fifth level character, so that would be 5+4+3+2+1 = 15) and multiply that but some number (100 is a nice round number) and treat that as 'reserve points,' similar to the kind artificers get. They can use their reserve points for crafting magic items, but can't use it to level up, and it doesn't impact their level progression.

As for characters with LA? That's a good question. First thing that comes to mind is to let them sacrifice 1,000 reserve XP to buy off the first level of their LA, 2,000 to buy off the second level, etc. If you don't want to do that, I'd say maybe every two or three levels the rest of the PCs get, he 'skips' one and instead gets two levels at once until he's caught up.

Hmm I'd like to expand a bit on this idea.

Lets say we use the reserve points and you get (your level+ all previous levels)*100 reserve xp per level and you only gain reserve points for your class levels and racial health dice but not level adjustment. So that's:
{table=head]Level | Reserve points
1| 100
2 | 300
3 | 600
4 | 1000
5 |1500
6 | 2100
7 |2800
8 | 3600
9 | 4500
10 | 5500
11 | 6600
12 | 7800
13 | 9100
14 | 10500
15 | 12000
16 | 13600
17 | 15300
18 | 17100
19 | 19000
20 | 21000[/table]

Now these points can only be used for crafting and other xp costs but not for leveling and unused points do not carry over to the next level. Additionally they can be used to buy off level adjustment at the rate of first LA costs 1000, second 2000, third 3000 etc (these numbers can be tweaked to say first 1000, second 2500, third 4500 or 1500, 3000, 4500 but you get the idea).

Now since we are not using normal xp but the "you level up when I feel it's appropriate method" we need some way for the player that bought off a level adjustment to catch up so I suggest he gains 1 level and an extra 1/3 level (or 1/2 if you're feeling generous ) for each level his ECL is behind the parties average ECL. In other words if he's 1 ECL behind the party he'll catch up in three levels.

This gives us:
ECL (levels + current LA)|+1 LA|+2 LA| +3 LA | +4 LA|+5 LA
1| | || |
2| | | | |
3| | | | |
4| | | | |
5| first buy off | | | |
6| | First buy off | | |
7| | Second buy off | First buy off | |
8| Catches up | | Second buy off | First buy off |
9| | | Third buy off | second buy off | First buy off
10| | | | third buy off | Second buy
11| | Catches up | | fourth buy off | Second buy off
12| | | | | Fourth buy off
13| | | | | fifth buy off
14| | | Catches up | |
15| | | | |
16| | | | |
17| | | | Catches up |
18| | | | |
19| | | | |
20| | | | | Catches up

And because I like tables and don't get a chance to use them often enough here is one more with at what level (class and racial health dice but NOT LA) you can buy each LA off:

{table=head]Level | Buy off
1|
2 |
3 |
4 | First
5 |
6 | Second
7 |
8 | Third
9 | Fourth
10 | Fifth
11 | Sixth
12 | Seventh
13 | Eighth
14 | Ninth
15 | Tenth
16 | Eleventh
17 | Twelfth
18 | Thirteenth
19 | Fourteenth
20 | fifteenth[/table]

As you can see it gets pretty packed after the third so I'd probably not use it with more then 4 LA or increase the cost, possibly after third or fourth, general increase for all or make it so each increase is higher then the last (the first at 1000, second at 2500 third at 4500 system but tweaked a bit).

Now I have no idea if this is balanced so I'll let the gitp d&d gurus handle that but here ya go.

[Evil the Cat]

You could take the pathfinder approach and drop xp cost for crafting, and have spells and other effects with xp cost use xp*5 GP instead.

[Darwin]

... I really can't understand what's so difficult about the person designated to do so writing down "defeated 6 CR 1/4 goblins" or whatever as it happens then tallying it up later. Could you possibly expand on WHY this is such a nightmare for your group?

Since we have rotating DMs keeping tally of encounters etc. would mean that the other DMs would have a say in how much exp is awarded to the group, which is something none of them really want to do. Most of our group members are still learning and so far it has been a huge relief for them not worrying about level-ups and experience.

[Shpadoinkle]

Ahh... see, I noticed the part about rotating DMs but you never mentioned that you're all DMing the same game with the same characters. At least, as far as I can tell.

So, yes, I can now see how that might cause some problems. So let me revise my previous suggestion: Every DM should run a different campaign (which is what I thought you were doing in the first place, hence my confusion.) The players should have different characters for each one.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I have always DM-ed with a 'no xp' mind set. Players have a certain level (ECL) and when I feel they are leveling up, they level up. That works great untill you get into magic item crafting and casting xp-heavy spells.

How I solve this, but that really depends on the relationship you have with the players, is the following:

-A player starts crafting, but uses his feat (e.g. Craft arms and armor) for the benefit of the whole party: I ignore the xp cost, the whole party benefits and 'virtually' donates their xp. Maybe the creator gets a bit more out of it, but then again,, he burnt a feat. Talk to the players and keep it within what you agree is reasonable.

-A player starts crafting/casting (e.g.) wishes solely, or predominantly, for his own benefit. Then I track the xp he is spending, compare the amounts with the xp table and postpone his leveling accordingly (in a highly back-of-the-envelope / guesstimate manner).

This has worked for me really well. However, I must admit that we were never much into the heavy xp-investments. In most campaigns, 'a' player took 'a' (or maybe two) crafting feat. When 'many' players start using xp as a resource, then I would advice to adhere strictly to the xp rules and guidelines. It may get out of hand and these guidelines are your only tool to keep it in hand and 'fair' to all.

[137beth]

Ahh... see, I noticed the part about rotating DMs but you never mentioned that you're all DMing the same game with the same characters. At least, as far as I can tell.

So, yes, I can now see how that might cause some problems. So let me revise my previous suggestion: Every DM should run a different campaign (which is what I thought you were doing in the first place, hence my confusion.) The players should have different characters for each one.

Well then let me revise my previous comment:
Everyone has a different play style, and some people might find rotating DMs fun. Even if they are all in the same campaign, this could be the system they enjoy the most.

[Darth_Versity]

My group have a special 'party xp' system. The xp is calculated and then totaled to find out our collective xp. If some wants craft or buy off LA then it comes off the total. The same applies for raising the dead. However much xp that character would have lost comes out of the total xp so a dead character could actually cause the whole party to lose a level.

This helps encourage a team effort as you letting someone die, or killing them in pvp actually costs you xp.

[gomipile]

On another tangent:
An idea for a crafting system that doesn't use XP could be to use negative levels as payment. A player could simply take on negative levels to pay for magic creating/xp costs. These levels would obviously not be cureable and would decrease by level at a fixed rate.

In order for that to make sense, it would have to not kick in unless the item would have been uncraftable in the old system, due to requiring enough XP to lose a level.

If you look at the actual XP costs of crafting, what would make more sense is the following:

1.) Figure out what fraction of the current level's XP the items the character has made this level would have come to.
2.) Have that character level up that fraction of sessions later at the next level up.
3.) If the character doesn't craft during a level, but has crafted before, then level up simultaneously with the other characters.

So, for instance, say the party is currently level 7. It requires 7,000 XP to get from level 7 to level 8. The party wizard has crafted 1000 XP worth of items. The party is leveling up once every 8 sessions.

1000/7000 = 1/7, and 1/7 is a little more than 1/8.

So, the character levels 1 session after the rest of the party.

If he had crafted before, he still levels up to level 8 one one session after the party, because of the nonlinear behavior of the standard XP system. If he crafts rather less than 1/8 of a level's XP in items, he levels simultaneously with the party.

This simulates the normal D&D crafting system rather well, as XP gain increases if your level is less than the party's.


If you want me to make this simple, just average out the number of sessions it normally takes for your party to level, and I'll make a crafting table for you.


However, the XP required to actually slow down leveling by a session is really rather large compared to the wealth by level required to craft that much in items.

Therefore, I would recommend the Pathfinder solution, and just ignore XP cost for crafting entirely.

[Rawn]

As far as level adjustment goes, you might want to try the Pathfinder approach. For every three levels gained by the group, the player with LA gains an additional level, until their LA has been reduced by half. This additional level would be gained about halfway between the usual leveling.

[sonofzeal]

Just use ECL!

The Gith character, if he's got an LA of +2, is 2 levels behind the party. When they level up, he levels up. No special bookkeeping required.

As to craftables, just make them xp-free and be done with it. It's darn near impossible to get yourself more than one session behind on xp anyway, and the way official xp rules go it's entirely possible to "leapfrog" over the PCs and actually end up ahead. You can remove it from the game without undo hardship. Or just substitute gp instead. Remember, 1 xp = 5 gp.