Naruto III: Five is right out!

[Trixie]

As usual, ever more hax :smallwink:

...

Um... Anyone has anything to add? :smalltongue:

[Lix Lorn]

Bubbles. I like bubbles.
That was a pretty cool filler arc.

[Lurkmoar]

How about "The Great Ninja War gets HAX!" for a title?

...until someone thinks of something better. Because I got nothing.

[Trixie]

Bubbles. I like bubbles.
That was a pretty cool filler arc.

This is your thread proposal? :smalltongue:


I wonder. What will be Naruto's reaction to the 6 tails Jinchuriki? In the anime, he shares a whole filler plot with him. In manga, he doesn't. I wonder how they'll set each up?

Not only this, one of the six is Bee's teacher/master. I wonder if that will be ignored as well :smallwink:

[Silverraptor]

And so, we ignore everything. Now what do we do with the series?:smalltongue:

[Lix Lorn]

Well, no, but Naruto III: BUBBLEZ! has a nice ring to it...

Naruto III: The Eyes Have It

[Trixie]

...awaits someone make 'eyeful' joke thread name... -_-"

[Irbis]

Aw, my one thread-claim-to-fame stolen taken away :smalltongue:

BTW, my last name is still accurate, you might want to name it the same :P

[Kato]

Meh, I don't mind the title, for all I care it can be 'the Savior hath come' or whatever but it might be useful to have link to the old thread in the first post :smallwink: (I think it's common to do so)

[Closet_Skeleton]

Naruto III: Resurections, all the cool kids are doing it.

[Lord Raziere]

"Naruto III: I agree with the Strawman"?

[Mystic Muse]

...awaits someone make 'eyeful' joke thread name... -_-"

Naruto 3 the Eyeful tower?:smalltongue:

[VanBuren]

Naruto III: The Second Coming of Ninja Christ.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Naruto III: Tobito rising

Naruto III: The sixth coffin is your Grandma

Naruto III: Because two threads aren't enough for the fangirls

Naruto III: Harry Potter and the Half-Goo Uchiha

Naruto III:: Sorry fans, Minato's dead

Naruto III: Kishi trolls the ninja world!

Naruto III: I'll bet you my life's savings Tobi is Obito

Naruto III: Madara Uchiha vs. the world

Naruto III: Not another flashback!

Naruto III: Where all the good fights happen off-screen

Any of those work?

[Xondoure]

"Naruto III: I agree with the Strawman"?

Seconded!!

[Traab]

Naruto III :How Did It Come To This?

Naruto III: Pretty Sure Its Almost Done.

[Fjolnir]

The Eyes Have it!

[MammonAzrael]

Naruto III: Masters of Talky-no-Jutsu
Naruto III: The war is a diversion!
Naruto III: Still not Hokage
Naruto III: Madara is still a one-eyed monster
Naruto III: Our lariat is superior

[VanBuren]

Naruto III: The Super Lightning Bros Super Show

[IcarusWings]

Naruto III: The sixth coffin is your Grandma


I'm in favour of this one

[Frozen_Feet]

You don't know that they're zombies for sure. The Paths are normally created from corpses - maybe Madara held onto them.

The six were shown to be summoned by Edo Tensei. While it's possible Madara had the old corpses stashed away somewhere, it's not been hinted at anywhere, so I'm relying on Law of Conversation of Detail. ie., if it looks like the gun from previous scene, it probably is.

[Traab]

Naruto III: Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better.
Naruto III: So How Many Months Has This Battle Lasted?
Naruto III: Hurry Up And Redeem Madera Already!

[Trixie]

The six were shown to be summoned by Edo Tensei. While it's possible Madara had the old corpses stashed away somewhere, it's not been hinted at anywhere, so I'm relying on Law of Conversation of Detail. ie., if it looks like the gun from previous scene, it probably is.

Why wouldn't he? Corpses are 'byproduct' of extraction process, and we already know he has dead tissue storage/preservation facility ;P

[Traab]

Why wouldn't he? Corpses are 'byproduct' of extraction process, and we already know he has dead tissue storage/preservation facility ;P

He isnt saying its not possible, im sure there are a half dozen different ways we could justify them being the actual bodies, the point is, there is no reason to think it is right now because we saw the bodies being edo tenseied and have seen no sign that these are an entirely DIFFERENT set of corpses. Personally, I hope they are ET bodies, just to add in an interesting twist where kabuto is able to attempt to disrupt his control over them in some sort of double cross.

[MammonAzrael]

He isnt saying its not possible, im sure there are a half dozen different ways we could justify them being the actual bodies, the point is, there is no reason to think it is right now because we saw the bodies being edo tenseied and have seen no sign that these are an entirely DIFFERENT set of corpses. Personally, I hope they are ET bodies, just to add in an interesting twist where kabuto is able to attempt to disrupt his control over them in some sort of double cross.

There is a part of me that hopes they're the ET bodies for just such a twist. However, that part of me is overwhelmingly shot down by the part that despises the idiot ball Madara would have to be holding to do something that blatantly stupid.

What I hope happens is that Madara acts like they are the ET bodies, and Kabuto believes it. Enough so that he pulls out his double cross, only to find that Madara played him, and used the actual original corpses. Because overpowered or not, one thing Madara is not is stupid, and I loathe idiot balls.

[Traab]

There is a part of me that hopes they're the ET bodies for just such a twist. However, that part of me is overwhelmingly shot down by the part that despises the idiot ball Madara would have to be holding to do something that blatantly stupid.

What I hope happens is that Madara acts like they are the ET bodies, and Kabuto believes it. Enough so that he pulls out his double cross, only to find that Madara played him, and used the actual original corpses. Because overpowered or not, one thing Madara is not is stupid, and I loathe idiot balls.

I have to admit, the old double reversal of fortune ploy is a fun one.
"Aha! You have activated my trap!"
"Aha! I just countered your trap!"
"Bullocks!"

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, and it would be in Madara's character to pull such a stunt. Sadly, though..this is Kishi, and while I do think such a stunt may happen I don't think it would play out quite like that. Rather, instead of the bodies not actually being Edos they in fact WOULD be edos, but when Kabuto tried a double-cross with them Kish with his eyeball fetish would just say that the control the Rinne'gan and/or Sharingan affords Madara is stronger then the control Edo provides Kabuto, reinforcing the ever present theme of HAXX bloodlines and natural abilities > hard work that runs through this manga despite Naruto's part 1 statements.

While I would highly dislike that, it's Kishi we're talking about....so expect HAXX eyeballs to win the day. Also, this means that if Madara REALLY DID give Nagato his Rinne'gan that he could hijack Nagato and if the sharingan also plays a part in the body control he could possibly snag Itachi as well. It would almost be like a higher level cleric rebuking the lower-level cleric's undead for the lolz, really. A sad situation, but not one I would put passed Kishi.

[Traab]

True, and it would be in Madara's character to pull such a stunt. Sadly, though..this is Kishi, and while I do think such a stunt may happen I don't think it would play out quite like that. Rather, instead of the bodies not actually being Edos they in fact WOULD be edos, but when Kabuto tried a double-cross with them Kish with his eyeball fetish would just say that the control the Rinne'gan and/or Sharingan affords Madara is stronger then the control Edo provides Kabuto, reinforcing the ever present theme of HAXX bloodlines and natural abilities > hard work that runs through this manga despite Naruto's part 1 statements.

While I would highly dislike that, it's Kishi we're talking about....so expect HAXX eyeballs to win the day. Also, this means that if Madara REALLY DID give Nagato his Rinne'gan that he could hijack Nagato and if the sharingan also plays a part in the body control he could possibly snag Itachi as well. It would almost be like a higher level cleric rebuking the lower-level cleric's undead for the lolz, really. A sad situation, but not one I would put passed Kishi.

Another possibility is kishi pulls out the willpower card. They are the ET bodies, so when kabuto tries to reclaim them, and madera is enforcing his rinnegan control, their own natural spirits somehow fight to the surface and take over again. Once again proving to us all that nothing can beat pure willpower or some such thing. Bonus points if naruto tries TALKING to them and that somehow pulls it off. "No yugito! Dont let them control you! Fight back!" yadda yadda

[BlackDragonKing]

Naruto III: The Super Lightning Bros Super Show

I throw my vote behind this one. :smallbiggrin:

[Kato]

I throw my vote behind this one. :smallbiggrin:

Count me in.


As for the Jinchuriki bodies... well, dunno. Might be an interesting plot point if they were used for a Madara vs Kabuto reveal but I don't really expect it... Though I've been wondering, do they even have the black rods in them? Can't see any.

[Traab]

Count me in.


As for the Jinchuriki bodies... well, dunno. Might be an interesting plot point if they were used for a Madara vs Kabuto reveal but I don't really expect it... Though I've been wondering, do they even have the black rods in them? Can't see any.

If they dont im sure itll be handwaved as "MWAHAHAHAHA! With the rinnegan and eternal mangekyo combined, I have no NEED of control rods! I shall never end up like that fool Pein, half crippled and emaciated in a cave while my extra bodies go off and do things!"

(Note, I have no idea why pein seemed to be in a machine with those rods, so i dunno if that was required for him to control the bodies or not)

[Callos_DeTerran]

If they dont im sure itll be handwaved as "MWAHAHAHAHA! With the rinnegan and eternal mangekyo combined, I have no NEED of control rods! I shall never end up like that fool Pein, half crippled and emaciated in a cave while my extra bodies go off and do things!"

(Note, I have no idea why pein seemed to be in a machine with those rods, so i dunno if that was required for him to control the bodies or not)

They were, Nagato was in that walker because the giant bijuu sealing statue shoved the rods into him when he summoned it in battle. The rods were what allowed him to control the paths of pain.

There IS another option though, it's possible that Kabuto gave the ET zombies to Madara to use as the new Paths of Pain since if they are already animate then Madara probably wouldn't need control rods to move them. Effectively it lets Madara control six of the ET zombies, allowing Kabuto to focus on controlling the remaining ones...until the sudden but inevitable betrayal of course. Or, in simpler terms, they could be maximizing what resources and abilities they have by working together for the moment.

[BlackDragonKing]

They were, Nagato was in that walker because the giant bijuu sealing statue shoved the rods into him when he summoned it in battle. The rods were what allowed him to control the paths of pain.

There IS another option though, it's possible that Kabuto gave the ET zombies to Madara to use as the new Paths of Pain since if they are already animate then Madara probably wouldn't need control rods to move them. Effectively it lets Madara control six of the ET zombies, allowing Kabuto to focus on controlling the remaining ones...until the sudden but inevitable betrayal of course. Or, in simpler terms, they could be maximizing what resources and abilities they have by working together for the moment.

Actually, Hanzo set off a ton of exploding tags just before Gendo Mazo appeared, crippling Nagato's legs. He couldn't walk anyway by the time he gained his control rods, so he was crippled before he even used the summoning.

[Traab]

Actually, Hanzo set off a ton of exploding tags just before Gendo Mazo appeared, crippling Nagato's legs. He couldn't walk anyway by the time he gained his control rods, so he was crippled before he even used the summoning.

So Pein WASNT like that due to using his rinnegan? Also, it occurs to me, that madera could be doing something interesting here. Remember how Pein was always far away from the conflict? Im thinking madera could do something similar to how he rescued sasuke at the summit and hide his real body in another dimension while his paths do all the fighting. And unlike Pein who was still vulnerable if you could track him, madera would STAY out of reach.

[Lurkmoar]

So Pein WASNT like that due to using his rinnegan? Also, it occurs to me, that madera could be doing something interesting here. Remember how Pein was always far away from the conflict? Im thinking madera could do something similar to how he rescued sasuke at the summit and hide his real body in another dimension while his paths do all the fighting. And unlike Pein who was still vulnerable if you could track him, madera would STAY out of reach.

His legs were crippled by the explosive tags, but I remember him becoming emaciated when his summon impaled him with those black chakra rods.

[Maho-Tsukai]

"Also, it occurs to me, that madera could be doing something interesting here. Remember how Pein was always far away from the conflict? Im thinking madera could do something similar to how he rescued sasuke at the summit and hide his real body in another dimension while his paths do all the fighting. And unlike Pein who was still vulnerable if you could track him, madera would STAY out of reach."- Trabb

Not too sure if he could do that, for this reason. Pain/Nagato had to be within a certain range to control the bodies. It was flat out stated in the manga. While Kishi could always go "lol sharingan + rinnegan HAXX negates that drawback" if that is not the case then Madara, like Nagato, would need to be within range of the bodies and I highly doubt another dimension would be anywhere close to "in range."

[Callos_DeTerran]

Actually, Hanzo set off a ton of exploding tags just before Gendo Mazo appeared, crippling Nagato's legs. He couldn't walk anyway by the time he gained his control rods, so he was crippled before he even used the summoning.

See, I don't see it that way since Nagato was standing there just fine while he was summoning Gendo Mazo and while using it (though Gendo Mazo might have been supporting him a that point).

[Kato]

I'm sorry to interrupt but... when did this Nagato vs Hanzo fight happen? I absolutely can't recall it. Or was it an anime only thing?

[Lurkmoar]

I'm sorry to interrupt but... when did this Nagato vs Hanzo fight happen? I absolutely can't recall it. Or was it an anime only thing?

Flashback story time after Naruto beat the Deva Path and talked to Nagato.

[random11]

Naruto III: I've got my eye on you!

BTW, does anyone even remember that the sharingan can copy techniques?
Why isn't it used this way any more?

[Traab]

Naruto III: I've got my eye on you!

BTW, does anyone even remember that the sharingan can copy techniques?
Why isn't it used this way any more?

Because thats old school weaksauce sharingan. The NEW sharingan is used for things like breaking all rules of physics and nature.

[Frozen_Feet]

Wait... Kabuto performed the Edo Tensei ritual before Madara... logically, this means Madara should be able to use the Jutsu, if he just gets himself some delicious DNA...

[Sotharsyl]

Sugestion:

NarutoIII:The Amazing Kakashi and his invisible Rampage!

NarutoIII:Kakashi's Rampage Live only on GITP Forums!


Naruto III: I've got my eye on you!

BTW, does anyone even remember that the sharingan can copy techniques?
Why isn't it used this way any more?

Really the thing is Sasuke,and probably Madara,are fighting immensly powerfull oponents,the ninjas who have the jutsus to destroy whole countries in part I only Orochimaru was described in those terms but in part II the only one who "fought" Sasuke and wasn't on that level was Sakura .Battles are now shifted in favor of who has created the strongest jutsu before wins the fight.

Imagine Sasuke going into those fights either:

a)his oponent crushes him in the first round with his awesome jutsu,which a lot of people I'm sure would love but whatever.

b)Sasuke has a counter to the tehnique in some form survives it and then throws it right back at his opponent who of course wasn't prepared to counter his own damn jutsu,the fight is over in 2 rounds.

So what Kishi does is he designs most of Sasuke's foes to have uncopyable jutsu as in they require either a KKG body modifications or bijuus the above problem solved but now everybody thinks Kishi has forgetten the sharingan copying abilities.

See for a pure gaming example the Exalted Eclipse Caste's unique power,basicaly sharinghan, plus their solution the Native keyword.

Ah but this solution creates another problem a big part of Sasuke's power is in his bloodline ability and that ability was just nerfed,but Sasuke still needs power so he can fight high level oponents and thus entertain us.

So Kishi gives the sharingan inherent powers,the trinity jutsus and EMS etc which manny see as another problem to the tune of too haax.

But I see it as something along the lines of sorcerors in DnD,this is why I think I can like Sasuke while other can't stand him I equate him to a Sorceror and Naruto to a Warlock which I consider both equaly valid paths to power.

[Lix Lorn]

Sorcerers are tier 2. Warlocks are tier 5. And if Sasuke kills Naruto in three rounds, Kishi will find himself with a broken base.

[Maho-Tsukai]

And by that logic Kabuto would be a wizard and thus stronger then Sasuke(sorc) and thus presumably Madara(Sorc with some crazy templates?) and we all know that Kabuto won't be FV so him beating Madara is out of the question unless Kishi dose something retarded like have Minato be evil the whole time and make him come back to be the FV.(Which sadly is something Kishi is actually capable of.)

[Traab]

And by that logic Kabuto would be a wizard and thus stronger then Sasuke(sorc) and thus presumably Madara(Sorc with some crazy templates?) and we all know that Kabuto won't be FV so him beating Madara is out of the question unless Kishi dose something retarded like have Minato be evil the whole time and make him come back to be the FV.(which sadly is actually something Kishi is capable of.)

"MWAHAHA! What did you think I REALLY did with the other half of kyuubis power?! I sealed it into myself, and used a genjutsu of the shingami to make everyone think I was dead and the kyuubi was sealed away! Now that I have fully mastered this power, I can fulfill my TRUE desire! To take over all the elemental nations for my own! You will call me, EMPEROR MINATO THE ETERNAL!!!!"

[VanBuren]

And by that logic Kabuto would be a wizard and thus stronger then Sasuke(sorc) and thus presumably Madara(Sorc with some crazy templates?) and we all know that Kabuto won't be FV so him beating Madara is out of the question unless Kishi dose something retarded like have Minato be evil the whole time and make him come back to be the FV.(Which sadly is something Kishi is actually capable of.)

Nah, that'd be really inconsistent with Kishi's style. That'd be more up Kubo's alley.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Itachi begs to differ...

as he was portrayed as totally and utterly evil but then turned out good. So if Kishi can decide to make a guy portrayed as totally villainous be a hero the whole time then why would it be outside of his style to make a character portrayed as totally heroic be a villain the whole time?

[Kato]

Itachi begs to differ...

as he was portrayed as totally and utterly evil but then turned out good. So if Kishi can decide to make a guy portrayed as totally villainous be a hero the whole time then why would it be outside of his style to make a character portrayed as totally heroic be a villain the whole time?

In fact... there were hints about his true intentions. Don't ask which but people didn't start to like him before for absolutely no reason. Don't ask me what reasons but it was there somehow. Maybe just the question of why he'd do that.
Though, I don't think he'll pull that on Minato. But maybe on Madara again.

[VanBuren]

Itachi begs to differ...

as he was portrayed as totally and utterly evil but then turned out good. So if Kishi can decide to make a guy portrayed as totally villainous be a hero the whole time then why would it be outside of his style to make a character portrayed as totally heroic be a villain the whole time?

No, he really doesn't. Because that entirely fits the trend we've seen over time of making the villainous characters more sympathetic, with the exception of Madara. We only have on example of a good character going bad--Sasuke--and that was telegraphed from the beginning. Making Itachi good is along the same vein as revealing that Orochimaru missed his parents, or that Nagato's life sucked.

Minato making a left turn into EVIL is the exact opposite of the alignment current that Kishi favors.

[Traab]

No, he really doesn't. Because that entirely fits the trend we've seen over time of making the villainous characters more sympathetic, with the exception of Madara. We only have on example of a good character going bad--Sasuke--and that was telegraphed from the beginning. Making Itachi good is along the same vein as revealing that Orochimaru missed his parents, or that Nagato's life sucked.

Minato making a left turn into EVIL is the exact opposite of the alignment current that Kishi favors.

What do we really KNOW about minato? He slaughtered a huge army of enemy ninja, and sealed an uber powerful demon into his sons gut. Partially. Apparently he didnt seal ALL of its power into naruto, and we have no proof that the rest of it didnt go somewhere for his personal gain. Of course konoha is going to proclaim him as a hero, he saved their village twice! But why did he do it? What evidence do we have that he didnt kill all those ninja because he is a blood thirsty hardass who wanted to rule the elemental nations with his unstoppable ultimate jutsu? What evidence do we have that he didnt take a chunk of the kyuubis power for himself and fake his death? He was flee on sight BEFORE the kyuubi thing, imagine his power level if he DID trick us all? Pein only THOUGHT he was a god, Minato? Yeah, at this point he might be the real deal!

[leafman]

Only hole in that theory is that Naruto was able sense the nine tails chakra in Kinkaku and Ginkaku, so he should be able to sense it if Minato was using the other half. Unless he can mask the chakra... nevermind, he probably can :smallsigh:

[Sotharsyl]

And by that logic Kabuto would be a wi
zard and thus stronger then Sasuke(sorc) and thus presumably Madara(Sorc with some crazy templates?) and we all know that Kabuto won't be FV so him beating Madara is out of the question unless Kishi dose something retarded like have Minato be evil the whole time and make him come back to be the FV.(Which sadly is something Kishi is actually capable of.)

Ah yes but Kishi is one of those DM's who follows that,in my humble opinion extreme, example "In a low fantasy campaign a +1 sword is fought over by nations" I mean just think about it the only spell scrools we've seen are:

a)the scroll of forbiden jutsus from Kohona,the whole Mizuki subplot was just the DM giving his girlfriend one pick out of the large list of spells he's banned.

b)Minato's scroll guaranteed to be given only right before the end battle.

c)Jiraya's scrolls Summon Animal X,the weakest summoning spell,plus again it's been nerfed.

Kabuto is working with a very stringy GM but he is still tier 1,I mean come on the whole world has allied to fight a war against 4 guys.

Think about it every army in the world against:

1 Epic Sorceror aka Madara
1 Sorceror or battle Sorceror aka Sasuke
1 Wizard or Dread Necromancer aka Kabuto
1 Rogue with a dash of Druid aka Zetsu

And their only hope is a Warlock/Druid with the Saint Template :smallwink: .

[Traab]

Only hole in that theory is that Naruto was able sense the nine tails chakra in Kinkaku and Ginkaku, so he should be able to sense it if Minato was using the other half. Unless he can mask the chakra... nevermind, he probably can :smallsigh:

How long has he had this sensing ability though? I mean, I realize its hard to guess how long he has been capable of sensing kyuubi chakra being used by someone else, but if we can pin down a certain time frame then we can work with that. Has it been since he was capable of sage mode? If so then its easily explained. Minato still has his toad contract, even if he doesnt use it. Im sure there are ways he could know when his son has learned the sage arts from them and knew he couldnt afford to use kyuubi chakra, if he has been hiding out and biding his time, then refraining from using kyuubis chakra for this last year or so shouldnt be that big of a deal, until he is ready for the grand reveal.

You know, one of those ethereal choirs chanting faux latin with an orchestral background music as the earth shakes, the skies turn red, and a miasma of foul chakra comes boiling forth. That sort of thing. :smallbiggrin:

[Lix Lorn]

Raikage-sama is clearly a Crusader with some kickass homebrewed Lightning discipline.

[Kato]

*sigh* Okay, so it's now (in)official: Minato is the true Big Bad and Itachi was a bad guy who pretended to be a good guy who pretended to be a bad guy and Madara will be the savior along with Sasuke since they will stop Minato's Anti-Christ demon-child Naruto from brain-washing the whole world.
Everyone wrote that down? Good, then we can see how we get to that point in-story :smallbiggrin:


(edited in case someone actually takes it serious)

[Lurkmoar]

*sigh* Okay, so it#s now official: Minato is the true Big Bad and Itachi was a bad guy who pretended to be a good guy who pretended to be a bad guy and Madara will be the savior along with Sasuke since they will stop Minato's Anti-Christ demon-child Naruto from brain-washing the whole world.
Everyone wrote that down? Good, then we can see how we get to that point in-story :smallbiggrin:

... what? Seriously, what? The easy explanation is that Kishi had a general idea of how the story was going, but not all the details. Danzo strikes me as a blatant retcon for starters...

[Maho-Tsukai]

My personal theory is that Danzo was actually for a short time an ally AND the inside man in Konoha for Madara, the latter of whom was the one who actually ordered the genocide of the Uchiha Clan....I actually have an argument with actual manga support for this but I am to lazy to type out the whole thing now. If anybody wants to know just call me out here or drop me a PM and I will respond when I am feeling less lazy.

[Sotharsyl]

*sigh* Okay, so it's now (in)official: Minato is the true Big Bad and Itachi was a bad guy who pretended to be a good guy who pretended to be a bad guy and Madara will be the savior along with Sasuke since they will stop Minato's Anti-Christ demon-child Naruto from brain-washing the whole world.
Everyone wrote that down? Good, then we can see how we get to that point in-story :smallbiggrin:


(edited in case someone actually takes it serious)

What a Tweeeest!

Also live action Naruto director: M Shamalan or Michael Bay?

[Kato]

Also live action Naruto director: M Shamalan or Michael Bay?

Why only one? Have Shamalan ruin the story line and Bay replace any jutsu (including Henge and kawamiri and healing) with a massive explosion. Of course make it all in 3D (what else) and include at least the plot up to... let's say Pein's death in a 90 minute movie. There you go, next year's blockbuster is done!

[Traab]

Why only one? Have Shamalan ruin the story line and Bay replace any jutsu (including Henge and kawamiri and healing) with a massive explosion. Of course make it all in 3D (what else) and include at least the plot up to... let's say Pein's death in a 90 minute movie. There you go, next year's blockbuster is done!

Heh, I can see the wave arc now! Tazuna hires team 7, then they walk for about a minute as he admits the real reason he hired them. Just as he finishes, mist rolls in, and oddly enough, explodes. Zabuza starts his 8 points speech only to be intterupted by naruto. "Hey ninja man! Dont be a tool of gato! Being a tool is wrong! Be a human being! Help me, help you!" "Ok brat, im convinced. YIKES!" Zabuza is blown up by gatos exploding cane trick. A grand battle takes place between gatos mercs, and the amazing exploding ninja team. Haku helps out with her shattering ice attacks. After its over, haku gives naruto a kiss and says, "I find im at my strongest when I protect my precious people." Then leaves in a shunshin... that explodes afterwards.

[VanBuren]

Heh, I can see the wave arc now! Tazuna hires team 7, then they walk for about a minute as he admits the real reason he hired them. Just as he finishes, mist rolls in, and oddly enough, explodes. Zabuza starts his 8 points speech only to be intterupted by naruto. "Hey ninja man! Dont be a tool of gato! Being a tool is wrong! Be a human being! Help me, help you!" "Ok brat, im convinced. YIKES!" Zabuza is blown up by gatos exploding cane trick. A grand battle takes place between gatos mercs, and the amazing exploding ninja team. Haku helps out with her shattering ice attacks. After its over, haku gives naruto a kiss and says, "I find im at my strongest when I protect my precious people." Then leaves in a shunshin... that explodes afterwards.

Also as you alluded to, Haku is female now. For realz.

[Traab]

Also as you alluded to, Haku is female now. For realz.

Androgyny is a bit too controversial for mainstream media. We must have clearly defined genders, and no thoughts of cross dressing, therefore any pretty boy becomes a girl by default. I dont make the rules, I just follow them. Ok, I did make that rule, but im still following it.

[Kato]

Sounds good. Does Mako fisher guy still have an appearance? Will Haku be prettier than Sakura? Will Kakashi show his face? will we see Sasuke get stabbed by a thousand needles with fancy contacts? Oh wait, we got CGI for that. You know what, make it all CGI. Actors are too expensive.

[Traab]

Sounds good. Does Mako fisher guy still have an appearance? Will Haku be prettier than Sakura? Will Kakashi show his face? will we see Sasuke get stabbed by a thousand needles with fancy contacts? Oh wait, we got CGI for that. You know what, make it all CGI. Actors are too expensive.

Naruto will be the only actual actor in the film, the rest is cgi and voice actors. Naruto shall be played by Justin Beiber. "Believe it, believe it, believe it OOOOH!"

[Lord Raziere]

wow.....you guys are real coincidental, or have watched Naruto the Abridged Comedy Spoof Series Show

its by LittleKuriboh, the guy who made yugioh abridged. seriously, he makes a lot of jokes you just did about Michale Bay and M Shamalan or whatever that guy's name is in his spoof of the naruto land of snow movie.

[Kato]

wow.....you guys are real coincidental, or have watched Naruto the Abridged Comedy Spoof Series Show

its by LittleKuriboh, the guy who made yugioh abridged. seriously, he makes a lot of jokes you just did about Michale Bay and M Shamalan or whatever that guy's name is in his spoof of the naruto land of snow movie.

Yeah, I'm aware of it but I wasn#t really thinking og LK when writing this stuff up. I guess these to are just among the more... (in)famous producers right now. With Shamalan's massacre he called 'The Last Airbender' and Bay loves explosions, everyone knows that.


Hu, Justin Bieber? Shouldn't we get some chick for Sakura, too? Uhm... I'm not too familiar... Hannah Montana? Uh... that younger Spears chick? Dunno. You know, to get the horny boys in the cinema. Oh wait, we got Haku for that. Do they still dig animated chicks? I guess so.

[Fostire]

New chapter:
So madara's immortal. That's not something new really but I guess it's nice to have a reason for why he's immortal.
Good fight with lot's of cool new moves on naruto's part.
Also, what happened to "can't uses shadow clones in nine-tails chakra mode"?

[Traab]

New chapter:
So madara's immortal. That's not something new really but I guess it's nice to have a reason for why he's immortal.
Good fight with lot's of cool new moves on naruto's part.
Also, what happened to "can't uses shadow clones in nine-tails chakra mode"?

So what is it? Oh, and as for naruto, rule of cool and power creep most likely. Gotta be able to stand up to maddy boy.Probably something like, The 6 paths of madera versus the 6 kyuubi reinforced clones of naruto. Or something to that effect. Cant say as I didnt read the issue.

[BlackDragonKing]

Huh. I don't remember Naruto demonstrating being capable of any of THAT before, but it is nice to see him not sucking at Ninjutsu for once. He's gonna need it.

[Trixie]

So. Naruto's new power is apparently ass-pulling new forms of Rasengan from his behind. The art even looks like he does so, too bad the new 'forms' are really uninspired :P

<wonders is someone make good mini-rasengan joke for the title> :P

[Traab]

So. Naruto's new power is apparently ass-pulling new forms of Rasengan from his behind. The art even looks like he does so, too bad the new 'forms' are really uninspired :P

<wonders is someone make good mini-rasengan joke for the title> :P

I have a couple but I dont think they will make it past the board guidelines. How about this?

Naruto III: Yours May Be Brass, But Mine are Made Of Wind And Fire! (adjust this for whatever elements he is using.)

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but Naruto is not going to face Madara for a while, the two still have to meet up, first of all, and second of all, Kabuto has to be taken out of the picture because we all know Madara will be final villain. Here are a few theories I have about how things could go down:

- Before we see Naruto vs. Madara there will be another big fight: Kabuto vs. The Sauce. Kabuto is forced to pull out all his cards, including Edo Nagato and Edo Itachi. Edo Itachi may shed some light on the Uchiha stuff. Kabuto will put up a good fight but fall to EMS.

- Naruto vs. Madara happens before Kabuto gets taken out, Madara loses to Naruto. Sasuke finally comes out, takes out Kabuto and becomes FV.

- Naruto vs. Madara happens before Kabuto gets taken out. Madara wins, captures Naruto and Bee and brings them back to base. Revelations of some kind happen due to Madara and Madara makes Naruto fight the Sauce while he looks on Emperor Palpatine style. At some point during all of this Kabuto tries to pull his betrayal and we get Madara vs. Kabuto. Madara wins. The rest eventually culinates in the fated Jubi Madara vs. Naruto(+ Sauce?) battle

No matter what, there is absolutly no way Kabuto will be final villain. His character is totally underserving of it. He's just a copy-cat who's trying to rip off the greatness that was Oro. Making Kabuto final villain would be the absolute worst move Kishi could ever make with the manga. I'd rather have the evil three times removed half-brother of Rikudou or an evil extradimensional alternate timeline future Naruto be the final villain then Kabuto. Thus, if Kabuto outlasts Madara somehow I hope that the FV will be somebody other then Kabuto. Most likely it would be the Sauce(sadly) though it could also be somebody else such as Black Zetsu(interesting twist) or Orochimaru himself come back for one more round.(I SO wish Kishi would just have Oro possess that poser Kabuto already and show that the original > the copy-cat.)

*Ends anti-kabuto ranting*

[Lord Raziere]

I have a couple but I dont think they will make it past the board guidelines. How about this?

Naruto III: Yours May Be Brass, But Mine are Made Of Wind And Fire! (adjust this for whatever elements he is using.)

meh. I'm still loyal to "Naruto III: I agree with the Strawman."

[Mystic Muse]

So. Naruto's new power is apparently ass-pulling new forms of Rasengan from his behind.

....That's a new power?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Apparently it's enough of a new power for Kishi.

[Lix Lorn]

I'd rather have the evil three times removed half-brother of Rikudou or an evil extradimensional alternate timeline future Naruto be the final villain than Kabuto.
Well, apart from the fact that you basically described Nagato there, that'd be pretty cool, albeit stupid.


Thus, if Kabuto outlasts Madara somehow I hope that the FV will be somebody other then Kabuto. Most likely it would be the Sauce(sadly) though it could also be somebody else such as Black Zetsu(interesting twist) or Orochimaru himself come back for one more round.(I SO wish Kishi would just have Oro possess that poser Kabuto already and show that the original > the copy-cat.)
Yes. So much.

[Traab]

....That's a new power?

Well its new if it doesnt hurt naruto almost as much as it hurts the enemy. If one of narutos hands gets charred away or something then its an old power. :p

[Lord Raziere]

nah, I'd rather have Naruto himself be the final villain with his constant therapy no jutsu start mindwashing everyone into doing his bidding, then have someone actually awesome kill him to prevent the ninja world from being brainwashed into a Naruto-wasteland.

....what?

[Traab]

nah, I'd rather have Naruto himself be the final villain with his constant therapy no jutsu start mindwashing everyone into doing his bidding, then have someone actually awesome kill him to prevent the ninja world from being brainwashed into a Naruto-wasteland.

....what?

This story ends with naruto therapy jutsu-ing the world into following him. Sasuke has proven himself to be the only one immune to his hypnotic words, and he runs away. Next month we see a new manga get released, The Chronicles of Sasuke, and we start a story of him trying to form a rebel group dedicated to taking down the silver tongued menace.

[Silverraptor]

Wait, wasn't he not suppose to use shadow clones while in 9 tail mode?:smalleek:

[Thrawn183]

I'm really waiting for Madara and Brat to get taken out so that Orochimaru can pop out of his transplanted hand, revealing that the hand was the real him all along and that everything we'd seen was a pale/weak version of him while he'd just been waiting for his only weakness (the Uchiha) before showing his full strength.

[Drolyt]

Wait, wasn't he not suppose to use shadow clones while in 9 tail mode?:smalleek:
Can we get a link? He cannot maintain more than a couple in Sage Mode, but I don't remember any shadow clone restrictions in his new fox mode.

As for his new rasengan variations, it makes sense. His training basically consisted of making fox rasengans using fox chakra, so now he can control it freely.

[Lurkmoar]

Can we get a link? He cannot maintain more than a couple in Sage Mode, but I don't remember any shadow clone restrictions in his new fox mode.

As for his new rasengan variations, it makes sense. His training basically consisted of making fox rasengans using fox chakra, so now he can control it freely.

Way back when they were trying to rescue Garaa, Naruto's clones poofed out when the Nine Tails Chakra emerged. Think they're talking about that. I figure now that his Chakra is balanced, it won't be a problem.

[Frozen_Feet]

Naruto was warned against using Kage Bunshin in his new fox-mode, because each clone supposedly creates another conduit for Kyuubi to drain his lifeforce. Why he's now going against that advice and whether it will bite him in the ass remains to be seen.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, I share the sentiment as far as Oro is concerned, Thrawn183. Kabuto is a blatant copy-cat poser who's gone as far as to steal Orochimaru's PERSONALITY AND GOALS as well as his powers. As a result I despise his development for basically becoming an uninteresting Oro clone instead of developing into his own villain with his own unique goals and powers. If Kishi wanted to bring Oro back into the plot, he should have brought back Orochimaru himself instead of giving Kabuto his personality, goals and techniques. I loved Oro as a villain and in all honesty I really wish Kishi would just have him possess Kabuto and show once and for all who's the real villain and who's the copy-cat.

I still want Madara for FV seeing as Madara is my favorite character in the whole manga, but if Madara can't be FV then at the least have the FV be Orochimaru instead of that uninteresting copy-cat Oro clone Kabuto or whiny, emo Anakin of the ninja world Sasuke.

[Drolyt]

Yeah, I share the sentiment as far as Oro is concerned, Thrawn183. Kabuto is a blatant copy-cat poser who's gone as far as to steal Orochimaru's PERSONALITY AND GOALS as well as his powers. As a result I despise his development for basically becoming an uninteresting Oro clone instead of developing into his own villain with his own unique goals and powers. If Kishi wanted to bring Oro back into the plot, he should have brought back Orochimaru himself instead of giving Kabuto his personality, goals and techniques. I loved Oro as a villain and in all honesty I really wish Kishi would just have him possess Kabuto, though I am not sure Kishi will do that.
Isn't it a little early to call Kabuto a Orochimaru copycat? I mean, we haven't seen him do much, have we? We don't know what his goals are. At least if you believe his speech to Naruto he's attempting to surpass Orochimaru and escape from his shadow, which are unique motivations right there.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Kabuto already stated his ultimate goal is to learn every jutsu in the world. Who's goal was that? Orochimaru's. Kabuto has always clung to Oro and idolized him. He may seek to surpass him, but as a result has become him. He is obsessed with obtaining Sasuke. He wants to learn every Jutsu. His new techniques are ALL techniques that belonged to Oro, but stronger. Kabuto has basically become a stronger/more HAXX Orochimaru and frankly I'd rather have the original Oro then Kabuto with Oro's goal, techniques and personality.

The character is not totally beyond salvation, but to make Kabuto a better FV then Madara Kishi would have to have him change his goals, make his personality more interesting then "lol I'm a more nerdy Oro" and display some new techniques that are not just buffed up versions of what Oro created....or just have Oro possess him and call it a day, as Orochimaru as FV would be epic.

As it stands, Kabuto, being Oro #2, is not interesting enough to be FV. Side villain to complicate things and be taken out by Sauce, Madara or somebody else? Sure. Final villain? No...not unless Kishi makes him over and gives him his own unique goals and jutsu instead of making him Oro #2.

[Silverraptor]

Naruto was warned against using Kage Bunshin in his new fox-mode, because each clone supposedly creates another conduit for Kyuubi to drain his lifeforce. Why he's now going against that advice and whether it will bite him in the ass remains to be seen.

Yes, exactly.

[Traab]

Naruto was warned against using Kage Bunshin in his new fox-mode, because each clone supposedly creates another conduit for Kyuubi to drain his lifeforce. Why he's now going against that advice and whether it will bite him in the ass remains to be seen.

Of course. /sigh. They will likely give him some sort of huge power boost, but in the usual kishi style, they will cause huge damage to naruto, in this case, draining his life force as badly or worse than tsunades personal kinjutsu. Because naruto CAN NOT HAVE ANY USEFUL SKILL WITHOUT A DOWNSIDE. Ever.

That means naruto gets to make some grand sacrificial gesture, like sacrificing all his life force in an ultimate 8 gates style suicide attack that grants him unimaginable levels of power, such as some large number of kyuubi reinforced shadow clones that basically fights like an exact copy of him and equally as strong, but will kill him afterwards. Even money on either a grand spectacle death and funeral where he is symbolically named the 6th hokage at his funeral, or the kyuubi is greatly impressed by narutos never ending will to protect, and sacrifices himself to save narutos life. Either could work, but im betting on kyuubi sacrifices himself to save narutos life.

[leafman]

The way he is using his clones is to be at all the battles at once. So what he thinks he will accomplish, idk, unless his clones don't poof when they get hit anymore.

[Thrawn183]

The way he is using his clones is to be at all the battles at once. So what he thinks he will accomplish, idk, unless his clones don't poof when they get hit anymore.

I'm guessing his clones are strong enough at this point that they don't get hit anymore. I mean, in this fight he pretty much had a flawless victory and it didn't seem like he was working very hard.

[Lord Raziere]

wait. Kabuto copying Orochimaru?

...Rock Lee is copying Gai, Naruto is copying Jiraiya, Sasuke is copying Madara (and before him Orochimaru), and Sakura is copying Tsunade, Shikamaru is sorta copying the smoker jonin guy (forgot his name) and NOW you complain about this?

the entirety of Naruto's history consist of people copying the people who came before them two generations ago, seriously, Kakashi is a two generations removed version of the Third Hokage since they both have tons of jutsu at their command, the Third Hokage because he is the Professor, Kakashi because he is the Copy-Nin.
and then there is the fact that Team 7 and the Sannin are blatantly the same and even teach their respective two generations away counterpart. and look at the land of lightning- the current Raikage and Bee are repeat tag-teamers of those two guys that the worry-wart guy fought.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a two generations older counterpart of the entire konoha twelve and everyone else in the world. if you are going to complain about people copying other people in this show, complain about everyone cause otherwise you will actually have to acknowledge what everyone is doing is passing down traditions, Kabuto only being the latest guy passing down the Orochimaru Villain Tradition

[random11]

Naruto was warned against using Kage Bunshin in his new fox-mode, because each clone supposedly creates another conduit for Kyuubi to drain his lifeforce. Why he's now going against that advice and whether it will bite him in the ass remains to be seen.

My guess is that the Kyuubi will turn from an angry prisoner to a new supporting friend, and will not kill Naruto even when it finally has the chance, all thanks to the brief conversation they had a few books ago.

Even if not right now, the introduction of Bee seems like a direct way to plant the idea that Naruto can cooperate with Kyuubi.

[Fjolnir]

Remember also, his clones do not directly have to engage the enemy, simply point out the spies...

[VanBuren]

That's not the problem though. When Naruto is in Nine-Tails Chakra Mode, he's basically switching his chakra with the Fox's. While he's burning Fox chakra, the Fox has the freedom to devour part of his, and when he creates clones the rate is supposed to increase. That's why Killer B was warning him to not stay in that form too long.

[Fjolnir]

I know, I am just saying he can spycheck the major battlegrounds with clones quite easily

[Sotharsyl]

wait. Kabuto copying Orochimaru?

...Rock Lee is copying Gai, Naruto is copying Jiraiya, Sasuke is copying Madara (and before him Orochimaru), and Sakura is copying Tsunade, Shikamaru is sorta copying the smoker jonin guy (forgot his name) and NOW you complain about this?

the entirety of Naruto's history consist of people copying the people who came before them two generations ago, seriously, Kakashi is a two generations removed version of the Third Hokage since they both have tons of jutsu at their command, the Third Hokage because he is the Professor, Kakashi because he is the Copy-Nin.
and then there is the fact that Team 7 and the Sannin are blatantly the same and even teach their respective two generations away counterpart. and look at the land of lightning- the current Raikage and Bee are repeat tag-teamers of those two guys that the worry-wart guy fought.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a two generations older counterpart of the entire konoha twelve and everyone else in the world. if you are going to complain about people copying other people in this show, complain about everyone cause otherwise you will actually have to acknowledge what everyone is doing is passing down traditions, Kabuto only being the latest guy passing down the Orochimaru Villain Tradition

The thing I don't like about Kabuto as Neo-Orochimaru is that those situations you described have arisen through:

Explicit consensual master-apprentice relationships mostly based on the mentor recognising themselves in the pupil:

Gai seeing Lee's hard work and devotement to taijutsu.

Jiaraya seeing a "failure" ready to show the world his potential,while having to contend with a genius and unsuccessfully trying to woe his teamate.

Tsunade seeing a poor girl having to handle her bloody single-minded teamates who at that point are officialy studying under Oro and Jiraya.

Oro wants Sasuke's sharingan but his greatest asset in getting it isn't his minions* or seal but the fact that he knows what it's like to be a young genius whose master those not approve of the student's chosen path.But o wayt these time the young genius does not have to forge on alone there is another master if the apprentice would pay the price.

See the pattern all of them have,even Oro I think,chosen to view the young ones as their apprentices.

Kabuto wins "Minion of the month" all months but really while Oro was alive he was the man's secretary not anything else,now I'm open to the possibility that Oro liked Kabuto more than Sasuke but professionaly he was still the secretary.

The other case is when people who have no direct connection like Kakashi and the Third go down the same path.
Well as a non super-special clan members(Uchiha,Uzumaki,Senju) they can specialize in either tai,nin,or gen they both chose nin they were peers even if separated by generations think if Leibniz was born 35 years after Newton now they can't invent differential calculus at the same and all of Leibniz work will surely incorporate Newton's and thus the L-man might seem lesser.

But why can't Oro and Kabuto follow the same path naturally this might seem cruel what I'm about to say but Oro was Ninja!Frankeistein Kabuto was Ninja!Igor yes the work in the same laboratory,but it took drastic changes ie Sasuke breaking his Faustian deal for Kabuto to move up.

PS: I added a star and forgot to explain sorry for editing a old post

* I never understood why if Oro can send the sound four to talk to Sasuke he couldn't have ordered them to simply kidnap him.

[Lurkmoar]

Didn't Kabuto comment about that when he ran into Naruto? I got the feeling he was perfectly happy with being a number one minion, but since Sasuke put Orochimaru out of commission, he needed to find a new goal in life. Thinking about his past experiences, he probably was inspired by Naruto's own path; making his own way through life following his own code of conduct.

We'll see what happens, hopefully Kabuto will surprise us.

[Maho-Tsukai]

First of all, everybody with a bloodline is not "coppying" their predicessors as bloodlines give pre-determined abilites that are usually identacle. MS is going to give you some of the same jutsu no matter who you are because it's a genetically encoded ability. Being born with the same powers as somebody else is not coppying them because you did not actively seek out those powers. You where born with them and since you already have them the most logical path to power is to develop the natural assets since you have them anyway. Sure, both Sasuke and Itachi have MS, but Sasuke did not actively go and seek out MS for the sake of being like Itachi. No, he was born with the ability to gain it and thus took the logical path to power of obtaining MS.

Kabuto, on the other hand, ACTIVELY SOUGHT oro's powers, choosing to implant oro's cells in himself of his own accord to obtain them. Further, his goals BECAME THE SAME AS ORO'S and his personality became almost identacle to his. While the same can be said for Madara implanting senju cells and the rinne'gan, at least his personality is not a carbon copy of the Sage's. My issue with Kabuto is he's taken on all of oro. His powers, his motives, his goals. If he had a goal other then "get sasuke and learn every jutsu" it would be different, but until he has a different goal and better, less-Oro like personality he's not FV materal.

[Lord Raziere]

so? Kabuto is evil, for villains to pass down their traditions, it probably isn't consensual at all, closer to the Sith's way of doing things. if the villains were consensual in passing down their techniques, then there wouldn't be a bunch of immortals swaggering around

then again....Orochimaru could in fact be in Kabuto, just that Orochimaru doesn't remember he is Orochimaru and only has Kabutos memories. maybe since only one snake got to Kabuto, Orochimaru's possession immortality thing isn't in full effect? maybe its less of a soul thing and more of a mind-information thing...., the current Kabuto isn't really Kabuto since the snake thing rewritten his motivation but isn't entirely Orochi cause it wasn't strong enough to rewrite Kabuto's memories.....

[Yanagi]

When Orichimaru died, Kabuto had a choice of self-definition...and chose to not assert himself, to instead become the continuation of his master's ambitions.

But from what's been presented in characterization, Kabuto has never really developed a personality; he just kind of does what Orochimaru says and never really thinks about his own agency. Indeed, the picture we get is that he's always lived under Orochimaru's thumb, and literally has never operated in a different mode. So that he can't/won't come up with his own motives seems consistent with past characterization.

It's another iteration of the tragic-but-evil characters that act as foils for Naruto's character.

Edited because I totally forgot a major detail that makes all of the above baseless.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Kabuto, on the other hand, ACTIVELY SOUGHT oro's powers, choosing to implant oro's cells in himself of his own accord to obtain them. Further, his goals BECAME THE SAME AS ORO'S and his personality became almost identacle to his. While the same can be said for Madara implanting senju cells and the rinne'gan, at least his personality is not a carbon copy of the Sage's. My issue with Kabuto is he's taken on all of oro. His powers, his motives, his goals. If he had a goal other then "get sasuke and learn every jutsu" it would be different, but until he has a different goal and better, less-Oro like personality he's not FV materal.

When Kabuto was first revealed to have implanted Orochimaru's cells into him, Hinata said that Orochimaru had already taken over something like 60% of Kabuto's body. Orochimaru was winning the fight for control and, from the look of things, is STILL winning. Why is it a surprise that Kabuto is becoming more like Orochimaru? He's still not winning. The whole reason he's taking on all of Orochimaru is because he isn't capable of stopping Orochimaru and there's less and less Kabuto. You're not looking at an Oro-clone. You're looking at Orochimaru with a Kabuto-shell and a few remnants of Kabuto's personality fighting to survive.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it dammit cause I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary.

[Drolyt]

When Orichimaru died, Kabuto had a choice of self-definition...and chose to not assert himself, to instead become the continuation of his master's ambitions.
But that's not what he chose. He chose to fight the Orochimaru cells trying to take over his body and find for himself a new identity. At least he told Naruto as much. Really, I don't see how anyone is coming to this conclusion. How is Kabuto following in Orochimaru's footsteps? Since Orochimaru died the only thing we've seen of Kabuto is that he's trying to play both sides, which is kind of like Orochimaru but honestly I don't see how that makes him a copy.

[Yanagi]

But that's not what he chose. He chose to fight the Orochimaru cells trying to take over his body and find for himself a new identity. At least he told Naruto as much. Really, I don't see how anyone is coming to this conclusion. How is Kabuto following in Orochimaru's footsteps? Since Orochimaru died the only thing we've seen of Kabuto is that he's trying to play both sides, which is kind of like Orochimaru but honestly I don't see how that makes him a copy.

ACK. You're totally right. I forgot about that. My bad.

In fact, my previous post is totally off because I forgot that.

[MammonAzrael]

Well since the kyuubi would be the one draining Naruto's life force, it's alo possible that he could be so moved that he decides to be like the eight-tails, give back the life force, and be all chill and stuff.

[Drolyt]

Well since the kyuubi would be the one draining Naruto's life force, it's alo possible that he could be so moved that he decides to be like the eight-tails, give back the life force, and be all chill and stuff.
I would hate that.

[Fjolnir]

One of the reasons that Kabuto is using a lot of Orochimaru's tricks and habits here is in an effort to try to establish himself as the "demon you know" to Madara, he definitely has more tricks than madara knows about and is very experienced with concealing his hand in order to get what he wants (He successfully infiltrated Konaha and spied on them for 3.5 years in preparation for the invasion by the sound) there will be a betrayal that reveals what orochimaru's full long game was and whether or not he plans on following through with it

[Kato]

I would hate that.

Seconded... the very moment Naruto decided to convert the Kyubi I got pissed. because i can SO see him following through with it. The incarnation of evil (kinda) redeemed by Jesus!Naruto... if there's something that'd ruin the series it would be that.

[Traab]

Seconded... the very moment Naruto decided to convert the Kyubi I got pissed. because i can SO see him following through with it. The incarnation of evil (kinda) redeemed by Jesus!Naruto... if there's something that'd ruin the series it would be that.

It probably would, but you CAN see it happening, because its almost like narutos entire character sheet was written up specifically to do that. To pull a demon of the mist on kyuubi. A guy who acts like an irredeemable monster, brought to tears by the first and most famous speech of naruto uzumaki. You can almost HEAR the dialogue. Naruto is in front of kyuubis cage, kyuubi is taunting the hell out of him for his stupidity and naruto fires off into some sort of speech about how it doesnt matter that he will die, so long as his precious people are safe. Kyuubi is struck dumb, naruto leaves and continues to sacrifice his entire life force to win, and kyuubi somehow saves him, either by sacrificing himself, or otherwise returning the life force to him.

[Lord Raziere]

yeah, this is why I hate messiah figures. They think everyone is redeemable and that it can all be solved with some words and a hug. world ain't like that cause its too complex. not saying I don't like ideals and making things better....its just that y'know...the world is so complex that not all solutions are obvious or easily doable.

[Thrawn183]

I've actually always liked Kabuto. He never had any hax abilities, but still managed to hang with the big guys. And by hang with the big guys I mean he didn't get brutally murdered by Orochimaru. I think that's a bigger achievement than a lot of people give him credit for.

[DiscipleofBob]

Seconded... the very moment Naruto decided to convert the Kyubi I got pissed. because i can SO see him following through with it. The incarnation of evil (kinda) redeemed by Jesus!Naruto... if there's something that'd ruin the series it would be that.

While I agree on the annoyance of Ninja Jesus, I want to say that Kyuubi didn't really seem evil to me. In fact, the various tailed beasts just seemed to be above the whole good/evil thing and were closer to primordial godlike beings. A best of pure rage and fury that saw the human race as mere insects sure, but not really evil.

I think "redeeming" Kyuubi in that sense is a given at this point. What'll really be really annoying is if Madara, Kabuto, and/or Sasuke get "redeemed" in the same sense.

[Drolyt]

yeah, this is why I hate messiah figures. They think everyone is redeemable and that it can all be solved with some words and a hug. world ain't like that cause its too complex. not saying I don't like ideals and making things better....its just that y'know...the world is so complex that not all solutions are obvious or easily doable.
You see, I like messiah figures. I like redemption. It is just that Naruto handles it very poorly. Take DBZ. Several characters get redeemed over the course of the show, but it isn't instant redemption from having your ears talked off. Case 1: Piccolo. Goku decides not to kill him because he's cool like that. Piccolo is entirely intent on killing Goku later anyways. His redemption consists not only of not being killed by the messiah figure, but by being forced to team up with the messiah figure to fight a greater threat, being forced to bond with the messiah figure's son, dying to protect said kid from alien menace (and having an internal monologue noting that he wasn't sure why the hell he just did that), coming back to life because DBZ is cool like that and finally visiting his homeworld where he absorbs the essence of a great warrior. You could argue that he hasn't become a full honest to goodness good guy until he reunites with Kami. In other words, this took years.

Similarly for Vegeta. Goku initially spares him allegedly because he wants to fight him again, and Vegeta continues being an evil bastard for another (very long) season. He doesn't do any bad things on Earth between the times Frieza is slain and Goku comes back because... he had nothing to gain? Most of the time he seems intent on surpassing Goku, which I guess is more important to him than being a bastard. He eventually ends up having a kid with Bulma, and then is perfectly willing to cast them aside in order to fight. It wasn't until he spends time bonding with his son that he becomes more of a good guy. Even then he has a lot of trouble with turning evil again in the Buu Saga, although he does come around with a heroic sacrifice and later even risks his very soul to save everyone.

The above examples might still make redemption seem easier than real life, but its a huge step in the right direction compared to Naruto.


I think "redeeming" Kyuubi in that sense is a given at this point. What'll really be really annoying is if Madara, Kabuto, and/or Sasuke get "redeemed" in the same sense.
See, I'd be fine if Sasuke was redeemed. Not because I like the character, cause I don't, but because A) Naruto has worked really hard on this one. Much harder than all the other characters he's tried to redeem. And honestly, after all he's been through Naruto kind of deserves it, even if Sasuke obviously doesn't and B) By the same token, Sasuke is the only character whose history makes redemption make sense. Really, until he went bat**** insane into card carrying villain territory shortly after killing Oro he was more of an anti-villain (or even anti-hero during part of his journey with Snake/Hawk). The derailing of his character is very strange, but him being redeemed still makes more sense than, say, the ancient evil demon composed of pure hate energy.

[Kato]

Hm... given, maybe Kyubi is not the incarnation of evil but he still is a destructive force with little or no conscience. I can't see him getting redeemed, really. If anything he might do something nice if he gets realeased afterwards or something as thanks.

In general... okay, it#s one thing if the hero converts a villain once in a while... but if Goku would have redeemed Frieza and Cell and the whole ribbon army... wouldn't that have been just as ridiculous?

As for the others... Sasuke... uhm... well, I don't know. Do what you want. Kill him, save him, make him be good all along. I stopped caring a year or so ago, really.
Madara: Honestly, I wouldn't mind. Not by being therapied by Naruto but because he is just thinking 'well, people won't stop killing themselves, so I need to force them to be nice by hypnotizing everyone.' Or maybe he'll even pull a Lulu and go 'Har, hate me, come on, bitches, untie and hate ma and defeat me and I pray then you will finally get along, you iidiots!' (Okay, maybe that's just the Tobito believer left in me but I can't get myself to all out hate Madara)
Kabuto... yeah, little redemption for him. I don't dislike him or think he is a poor character but... well, he never showed any intention to do good, ever. Whatever he plans is for his needs without a doubt.

But that's just me of course.

[Traab]

The problem I have with redeeming sasuke is that its different for him than for most other bad guys. He has had his mind and world view shattered, repeatedly. He has been mentally tortured, spoiled rotten, never had the lesson that its the team not the individual that matters properly beaten into his thick skull, had a mind controlling, emotion havoc wreaking seal placed on him, god I cant even come up with a full list of the various ways he has been screwed with.

Redeeming someone like zabuza made sense because he chose to be the way he was, and he hid his emotions for years, denying their existence even to himself. With an emotional speech that tugged on all the right strings he was able to make that change to himself. Sasuke is mentally insane. He has been controlled, manipulated, broken and tortured all his life. (Even the way his dad treated him counts to an extent in my book) It isnt as simple as therapy no jutsu anymore. His mind is just no longer wired right. It would be like convincing kyuubi to take up gardening.

At this point the MOST positive ending for sasuke I can think of is a suicide with some aspects of morality to it. Meaning, he knowingly takes a lethal blow for naruto or something and dies, maybe a callback conversation to the haku battle. Just to show us that there still was some tiny fragment of the old, not totally an ass sasuke in there somewhere.

There HAVE been times when it seemed like naruto was able to almost reach sasuke iirc. He just generally rages out after a second or two and its back to battling. With the right timing, naruto puts a crack in sasukes psychosis, and then is in danger of a kill shot from madera, I could see the brief moment of clarity in sasuke before the red mist descends once again and he moves without thinking of it and dies held by naruto, just like in wave, only this time without the "Oops, just kidding, im so damn good I was able to throw my needles at someone else and STILL put him in a precise near death state. tee hee" (Honestly, has anyone ever thought about that? Haku threw the senbon at naruto, knowing sasuke would take the hit, and managed to hit sasuke in precisely the right spot for a near death state, thats a little silly)

[Callos_DeTerran]

Haku threw the senbon at naruto, knowing sasuke would take the hit, and managed to hit sasuke in precisely the right spot for a near death state, thats a little silly)

It doesn't sound that far out there, considering Zabuza was adamant that Haku was stronger then he was and Zabuza fought Kakashi. I think, what was meant, was that up until then Haku hadn't really been trying to kill them. It was Sasuke's leap that threw off Haku's aim and finally put enough hurt on Sasuke that he fell unconscious and almost died, coming close enough to fool Naruto and Sakura who'd never seen a dead body before that. It makes more sense that way at least.

[Drolyt]

Zabuza was adamant that Haku was stronger then he was
Evidence points to this not being the case though. It is probable that Zabuza only meant he had better ninjutsu, or was referring to the kekkai genkai.

[Frozen_Feet]

It's good to note that Haku put Zabuza into unconsciousness in the same way he later knocked Sasuke out. I took Zabuza's words to mean that Haku had much greater potential of the two - it's a crapshoot to say which one was really more powerful.

[Traab]

It doesn't sound that far out there, considering Zabuza was adamant that Haku was stronger then he was and Zabuza fought Kakashi. I think, what was meant, was that up until then Haku hadn't really been trying to kill them. It was Sasuke's leap that threw off Haku's aim and finally put enough hurt on Sasuke that he fell unconscious and almost died, coming close enough to fool Naruto and Sakura who'd never seen a dead body before that. It makes more sense that way at least.

The thing is though, haku was apparently so freaking wonderful, that he was able to throw senbon at naruto, knowing that sasuke would try and block them. I can believe this much. But more than that, he was able to so accurately throw these senbon that he was able to hit the pressure point of someone who wasnt even standing there at the time he threw them and was SOMEHOW able to determine what position EXACTLY sasuke would be in, in order to hit a point probably the size of a pin head. Obviously Haku is a seer as thats prediction on a level the mangekyo would stumble over.

[Maho-Tsukai]

This is Kishi. He has had all kinds of annoyingly unrealistic "mundane" feats. Haku's senbon throw is not the only example....need I remind you of Konan crafting 600 billion explosive tags?

[Lurkmoar]

This is Kishi. He has had all kinds of annoyingly unrealistic "mundane" feats. Haku's senbon throw is not the only example....need I remind you of Konan crafting 600 billion explosive tags?

The mind boggles at, even with all the Rain ninjas contributing.... just... I mean, it was AWESOME as heck, but still.

[Frozen_Feet]

I believe I did the math in the past threads, and concluded she would've only needed to steal all paper from several moderate-sized factories during the course of couple of months. Let me see if I can still find that. :smalltongue:

[Traab]

Bah, this is naruto, a wizard (ninja) did it! She can turn her entire body into paper, she doesnt need to raid paper factories, just keep converting herself into paper and storing them somehow, then unleash it. Or do one of those huge chakra boosting techniques and unleash the S rank move that somehow manages to turn yourself into a might as well be infinite amount of paper that explodes! :p

[Maho-Tsukai]

Hence why I said it's Kishi, he can pretty much explain anything off by "oh, it's a jutsu/bloodline" just as you can excuse pretty much anything in D&D as "oh, it's magic." Though I do wonder....if Rikudou Mode Naruto can spam Ransangans with no drawbacks like he seems to be now could he perhaps spam 600 billion ransangans to get around Madara's intangibility?

Though, while Madara dose have his own paths now, if he can use all the 6 paths powers on his own not even 600 billion ransangans could kill him as combining intangibility and Shinra Tensai provides TOTAL INVULNERABILITY. Think about it. Intangibility has a 5 minute cooldown. Shinra Tensai has a five minute cooldown. He attacks, goes intangible. Intangible has a five minutes before it's next use. You attack in the opening thinking your in the clear. Shinra Tensai blocks your attack pushes you a good distance, possibly doing serious damage depending on what was in your path as you where sent flying. By the time you attacked him, he responded and you finally recovered from the damage from Shinra Tensai intangibility is done with it's cooldown and Madara just trolls your next attack. Wash, rinse and repeat until Madara gets bored of toying with you and one shots you with Tsukyomi, or Human path soul-ripping or sends you on a one way trip to the box dimension.

Sure, he can't attack while intangable or using shinra tensai, but with both shinra tensai AND intangibility Madara should pretty much always have one ready, even if the other is on cooldown, meaning he's basically impossible to hit now unless he can only use Shinra Tensai through his deva path and has no way of using it on his own.

[Traab]

Hence why I said it's Kishi, he can pretty much explain anything off by "oh, it's a jutsu/bloodline" just as you can excuse pretty much anything in D&D as "oh, it's magic." Though I do wonder....if Rikudou Mode Naruto can spam Ransangans with no drawbacks like he seems to be now could he perhaps spam 600 billion ransangans to get around Madara's intangibility?

Though, while Madara dose have his own paths now, if he can use all the 6 paths powers on his own not even 600 billion ransangans could kill him as combining intangibility and Shinra Tensai provides TOTAL INVULNERABILITY. Think about it. Intangibility has a 5 minute cooldown. Shinra Tensai has a five minute cooldown. He attacks, goes intangible. Intangible has a five minutes before it's next use. You attack in the opening thinking your in the clear. Shinra Tensai blocks your attack pushes you a good distance, possibly doing serious damage depending on what was in your path as you where sent flying. By the time you attacked him, he responded and you finally recovered from the damage from Shinra Tensai intangibility is done with it's cooldown and Madara just trolls your next attack. Wash, rinse and repeat until Madara gets bored of toying with you and one shots you with Tsukyomi, or Human path soul-ripping or sends you on a one way trip to the box dimension.

Sure, he can't attack while intangable or using shinra tensai, but with both shinra tensai AND intangibility Madara should pretty much always have one ready, even if the other is on cooldown, meaning he's basically impossible to hit now unless he can only use Shinra Tensai through his deva path and has no way of using it on his own.

I recall that naruto was able to fight through peins shinra tensei on a few occasions, and this was before he had control over kyuubis chakra. I wonder how effective it would be now? Also, isnt it only one of the rinnegan bodies that can use it? What protects maderas other bodies from being torn limb from limb?

[Drolyt]

I believe I did the math in the past threads, and concluded she would've only needed to steal all paper from several moderate-sized factories during the course of couple of months. Let me see if I can still find that. :smalltongue:
I don't think everyone here is appreciating how large a number 600 billion is. Even assuming super small and thing paper, say 1 in by 1 in by .02 in we are talking about 1 billion square feet, or a cube 1000 feet on each side. In other words, 200,000 trees died for Konan to make her attack, at a low estimate. Let's also assume that each paper produced an explosion with the same energy output as a match, 1 BTU (I'm using BTU for ease of calculation; to recieve Joules multiply by 1,055.05585, Calories multiply by 252). So all of them together released 600 billion BTUs, or approximately 7.5 copies of the nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima. Nevermind that explosive tags have been shown to be closer to dynamite (2000 BTUs), which would put Konan's energy output at about 1.2 Quadrillion BTUs, compared to the 100 Quadrillion or so the US outputs in a year. Simply put, these numbers are pure insanity.

[Traab]

I don't think everyone here is appreciating how large a number 600 billion is. Even assuming super small and thing paper, say 1 in by 1 in by .02 in we are talking about 1 billion square feet, or a cube 1000 feet on each side. In other words, 200,000 trees died for Konan to make her attack, at a low estimate. Let's also assume that each paper produced an explosion with the same energy output as a match, 1 BTU (I'm using BTU for ease of calculation; to recieve Joules multiply by 1,055.05585, Calories multiply by 252). So all of them together released 600 billion BTUs, or approximately 7.5 copies of the nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima. Nevermind that explosive tags have been shown to be closer to dynamite (2000 BTUs), which would put Konan's energy output at about 1.2 Quadrillion BTUs, compared to the 100 Quadrillion or so the US outputs in a year. Simply put, these numbers are pure insanity.

What did the blast zone look like, out of curiosity? Im hoping it was creation of the valley of the end level of destruction. Also, did all 600 billion go off at the same instant? Or was it a rolling explosion? Also, anyone watch the mythbusters episode where they set off I think 100k match heads in a 50 gallon barrel? It made a tower of fire that went a good 50 feet in the air! Now multiply that fireball by 6,000,000 times. Pretty sure it would have been comparable to a solar flare.

[Lord Raziere]

so if Ninjas are wizards....Narutos some sort of CoDzilla cleric or druid (count Kyuubi as a god), Sasuke's a Sorcerer....

and Madara's freaking Pun-Pun.

[VanBuren]

What did the blast zone look like, out of curiosity? Im hoping it was creation of the valley of the end level of destruction. Also, did all 600 billion go off at the same instant? Or was it a rolling explosion? Also, anyone watch the mythbusters episode where they set off I think 100k match heads in a 50 gallon barrel? It made a tower of fire that went a good 50 feet in the air! Now multiply that fireball by 6,000,000 times. Pretty sure it would have been comparable to a solar flare.

IIRC it was a rolling explosion so that no matter how many Madara phased through, there would still be enough to hit him.

Granted, she wouldn't have needed that many for that purpose and it was sheer overkill. The real insanity is that it still didn't work.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The thing is though, haku was apparently so freaking wonderful, that he was able to throw senbon at naruto, knowing that sasuke would try and block them. I can believe this much. But more than that, he was able to so accurately throw these senbon that he was able to hit the pressure point of someone who wasnt even standing there at the time he threw them and was SOMEHOW able to determine what position EXACTLY sasuke would be in, in order to hit a point probably the size of a pin head. Obviously Haku is a seer as thats prediction on a level the mangekyo would stumble over.

...I think you may have missed my point. I meant, that it always seemed to me that Haku was trying to avoid killing them the entire fight, but when Sasuke leaped in front of the senbon they hit Sasuke in places they weren't supposed to and actually almost killed him. Which is far more believable/possible then Haku having precognitive abilities.

@Maho: Shinra Tensei has a five second cooldown, not a five minute one.

[Kato]

@Maho: Shinra Tensei has a five second cooldown, not a five minute one.

I was going to say that, too. Five minutes is rather useless I guess. (Well, not useless but easy to overcome) Though, even five seconds is doable with multiple attackers abd decent timing. (Or one very able attacker)


Wow, that's quite some math there... I'd wager Kishi just doesn't have any idea what he was writing... that or the land of rain is a giant smear on the world map now. Or a hole.

[Traab]

...I think you may have missed my point. I meant, that it always seemed to me that Haku was trying to avoid killing them the entire fight, but when Sasuke leaped in front of the senbon they hit Sasuke in places they weren't supposed to and actually almost killed him. Which is far more believable/possible then Haku having precognitive abilities.

@Maho: Shinra Tensei has a five second cooldown, not a five minute one.

Actually, it was hakus plan all along to take down sasuke. He knew he couldnt connect in a direct attack with sasukes sharingan active, so he targetted naruto instead, KNOWING sasuke would take the hit. He didnt aim for disabling hits, he could have easily taken out sasukes legs or arms, instead he managed to put sasuke into a near death state by accurately predicting where a pin head sized target on his body would be before it even got there. Im not entirely certain, but didnt kakashi mention that missing the exact spot could be lethal? Thats just one of those refrigerator logic things. It was really cool to see, but when you stop and think about it..... "HEY! That doesnt make sense! It was barely acceptable on zabuza when he was a stationary target!"

[Dvandemon]

I just love how awesome with Rasengan Naruto has gotten. :smile:
Naruto III: Hurry Up And Redeem Madera Already!
Naruto, Hurry Up and Redeem Madara cookie if you get the reference

[Sotharsyl]

You see, I like messiah figures. I like redemption. It is just that Naruto handles it very poorly. Take DBZ. Several characters get redeemed over the course of the show, but it isn't instant redemption from having your ears talked off. Case 1: Piccolo. Goku decides not to kill him because he's cool like that. Piccolo is entirely intent on killing Goku later anyways. His redemption consists not only of not being killed by the messiah figure, but by being forced to team up with the messiah figure to fight a greater threat, being forced to bond with the messiah figure's son, dying to protect said kid from alien menace (and having an internal monologue noting that he wasn't sure why the hell he just did that), coming back to life because DBZ is cool like that and finally visiting his homeworld where he absorbs the essence of a great warrior. You could argue that he hasn't become a full honest to goodness good guy until he reunites with Kami. In other words, this took years.

Similarly for Vegeta. Goku initially spares him allegedly because he wants to fight him again, and Vegeta continues being an evil bastard for another (very long) season. He doesn't do any bad things on Earth between the times Frieza is slain and Goku comes back because... he had nothing to gain? Most of the time he seems intent on surpassing Goku, which I guess is more important to him than being a bastard. He eventually ends up having a kid with Bulma, and then is perfectly willing to cast them aside in order to fight. It wasn't until he spends time bonding with his son that he becomes more of a good guy. Even then he has a lot of trouble with turning evil again in the Buu Saga, although he does come around with a heroic sacrifice and later even risks his very soul to save everyone.

The above examples might still make redemption seem easier than real life, but its a huge step in the right direction compared to Naruto.

See, I'd be fine if Sasuke was redeemed. Not because I like the character, cause I don't, but because A) Naruto has worked really hard on this one. Much harder than all the other characters he's tried to redeem. And honestly, after all he's been through Naruto kind of deserves it, even if Sasuke obviously doesn't and B) By the same token, Sasuke is the only character whose history makes redemption make sense. Really, until he went bat**** insane into card carrying villain territory shortly after killing Oro he was more of an anti-villain (or even anti-hero during part of his journey with Snake/Hawk). The derailing of his character is very strange, but him being redeemed still makes more sense than, say, the ancient evil demon composed of pure hate energy.

The DBZ part when you put it like that..it's making me think Naruto's mistake is in him pardon the expression "coming on too strong" in the beginning of part II remember their conversation when they first met in Oro's lair.

Sasuke asked him why was he doing this and he suggested that Naruto should concentrate on his own goal of becoming the Hokage and Naruto retorted that he's gotta save his friend first that their conversation at the VOTE made it clear that Naruto would accept nothing less than Sasuke coming back to the village right now by his own volition or by force and stay in the village getting all thoughts of avenging his family out of his mind.

Now Sasuke is obsessed with his vengeance it's his reason the etre I think that a better method for Naruto would have been to try and work with it,"Go kill Itachi but make it snapy because you have friends back home who miss you and want to see you soon,not that you have other places to return to if you survive",than rewrite Sasuke's motivation by force "No avenging you your parents for you you stay in Kohona like a good boy or you'll be spanked".

Again I must say it probably won't work with Sasuke's issues and Madara's interference but you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar especially in the redemption business.

[VanBuren]

The vengeance by itself wasn't the issue. It was that it had consumed Sasuke to the exclusion of all else.

[Sotharsyl]

The vengeance by itself wasn't the issue. It was that it had consumed Sasuke to the exclusion of all else.

Yes I concur Itachi did a very good job with the "hate me" part,unbeknownst to Naruto the Sasuke he and us have interacted with is a man built for one mission only avenging his family,if you take that away from him you'll get something that will look and and sound like him but it won't be the Sasuke we know especially if the avenging issue is beaten out of him.

And any way Naruto would have tried it it would have failed due to Sasuke being a stubborn ass but you know the DBZ comparison really made me think on how Goku was really hands off but he still got people on his side.

[Traab]

Yes I concur Itachi did a very good job with the "hate me" part,unbeknownst to Naruto the Sasuke he and us have interacted with is a man built for one mission only avenging his family,if you take that away from him you'll get something that will look and and sound like him but it won't be the Sasuke we know especially if the avenging issue is beaten out of him.

And any way Naruto would have tried it it would have failed due to Sasuke being a stubborn ass but you know the DBZ comparison really made me think on how Goku was really hands off but he still got people on his side.

I think it was less hate me, than it was just hate. Sasuke rather quickly shifted his target from itachi to konoha, despite the fact that there was what, 2-3 people still alive that had anything to do with the uchiha massacre in the village? Sasuke is just full of hate and NEEDS a target to unload on. Whether its itachi, naruto, konoha, or anyone he gets within arms length, he just needs a target to get vengance on.

[Maho-Tsukai]

If Shinra Tensai's cooldown is only five seconds then Madara really is pretty much untouchable if he alternates between Shinra Tensai and Intagibility. Good luck hitting him without That Jutsu, Naruto. :smallamused:

Anyway, If Naruto really can fight through Shinra Tensai then he may stand a chance, though I still think Naruto may not win this soon to come first Madara fight since Madara already stated he wanted to force Naruto and the Sauce into a fight and since he needs to seal Naruto he's going to be fighting to capture, not kill. Naruto and Bee getting captured would serve the plot well too, by putting Naruto right where he needs to be to advance the plot(in Madara's lair where he can find out all his secrects and re-unite with the Sauce.).

This would also allow the manga to tie up Kakashi and the other's stories as Naruto captured would require Kakashi and others to form a rescue team, and Madara can still complete the moon's eye plan without killing Naruto(Kushina survived extraction, so her son should be able to as well.) or leaving everybody his zombie...remember...not everybody sees the moon at once and not everybody has to look at the moon. Madara probally knows this, too, and most likely his plan would be to organize those he can mind-slave into an army/empire and then crush anybody who did not get Mugen'ed with his ner army and Rikudouhood and fully establish his global dictatorship. This was going to be "Kakashi's year," so what would be any more "Kakashi-centric" then Kakashi becomming the leader of a ninja resistance to rescue Naruto and fight against Madara's evil mind slave army?

Either that, or the moons' eye plan that he told the Kage's was partly or totally false and the real Moon's Eye plan is something more then a global-range Mind Rape spell with the moon as an arcane focus and some really strange materal coponents.

[VanBuren]

If Shinra Tensai's cooldown is only five seconds then Madara really is pretty much untouchable if he alternates between Shinra Tensai and Intagibility. Good luck hitting him without That Jutsu, Naruto. :smallamused:

Anyway, If Naruto really can fight through Shinra Tensai then he may stand a chance, though I still think Naruto may not win this soon to come first Madara fight since Madara already stated he wanted to force Naruto and the Sauce into a fight and since he needs to seal Naruto he's going to be fighting to capture, not kill. Naruto and Bee getting captured would serve the plot well too, by putting Naruto right where he needs to be to advance the plot(in Madara's lair where he can find out all his secrects and re-unite with the Sauce.).

This would also allow the manga to tie up Kakashi and the other's stories as Naruto captured would require Kakashi and others to form a rescue team, and Madara can still complete the moon's eye plan without killing Naruto(Kushina survived extraction, so her son should be able to as well.) or leaving everybody his zombie...remember...not everybody sees the moon at once and not everybody has to look at the moon. Madara probally knows this, too, and most likely his plan would be to organize those he can mind-slave into an army/empire and then crush anybody who did not get Mugen'ed with his ner army and Rikudouhood and fully establish his global dictatorship. This was going to be "Kakashi's year," so what would be any more "Kakashi-centric" then Kakashi becomming the leader of a ninja resistance to rescue Naruto and fight against Madara's evil mind slave army?

Either that, or the moons' eye plan that he told the Kage's was partly or totally false and the real Moon's Eye plan is something more then a global-range Mind Rape spell with the moon as an arcane focus and some really strange materal coponents.

It's been "Kakashi's year" for like three years now.

[Trixie]

...no no no, Madara's plan is to summon a tank! :P


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2795/4364437379_d0ef376d2b.jpg

[Maho-Tsukai]

I know of Kakashi and his year being declaired and never comming, but please, just let me have my dream of seeing Kakashi as a ****** resistance leader going on a ON-SCREEN rampage against hoards of Madara mind slaves while looking totally awesome in the process. This manga needs more awesome and Kakashi can deliever it if Kishi just lets him....

My only fear is that when Kishi finally dose do his Kakashi plot that he's been forshadowing all this time we'll see Madara's mask come off and Obito sporting a big evil grin...:smallfrown:

[Trixie]

My only fear is that when Kishi finally dose do his Kakashi plot that he's been forshadowing all this time we'll see Madara's mask come off and Obito sporting a big evil grin...:smallfrown:

...care to tell us how, seeing Madara battled 4th Hokage to (almost) win and Obito died just before that, being so weak random mook offed him? :smalltongue:

[Maho-Tsukai]

I don't believe that Madara is Obito. My theory is that Madara is most likely Madara, though COULD be Izuna if he's not actually Madara himself, but I don't see him being anybody else. I DO however, fear that, Kishi, with his love of messing with all of us, will once again dawn his faithful trollface and give all the Tobito fans who still have not abandon their sinking ship of a theory what they want. The Sixth Coffin is what REALLY makes me worry, which is why I hope that if Kishi decides to not make Madara that he makes him Izuna instead of Obito or Sasuke from the future.

As I said, I don't think Tobito is likely but until light is shead on the sixth coffin or Madara's mask comes off Tobito remains a posibility, as dose Tobi being Izuna, or Sasuke from the Future, or somebody else that's not Madara and I fear that Kishi, with his trollish nature, will decided to make one of those posibilities canon....and if a "Kakashi plot" really is in the works Tobito seems more likely then the others.

[Kato]

You nerdy fans and your knowledge of names they mentioned like once in the entire manga :smalltongue: (Yes, I had to look up who Izuna was, though I really don't see any reason for him to pick up his brother's name but this is Naruto so why am I still asking for reason?)(Oh, also I'll cling to my ship as long as I care for, at least as a possibility until the mask is off, thank you very much :smallbiggrin:)

Though, as much as my trust in kishi's abilities a a good plot writer have vanished over the last years I don't think he'll change a major part of his story to please whatever theroy some fans like to be true or Nagato would have been 4th and whatnot...


Also, not that I'd mind seeing more off Kakashi being awesome he had his moment to shine when he was fighting the 7 Swordsman... that was neat.

[BlackDragonKing]

The vengeance by itself wasn't the issue. It was that it had consumed Sasuke to the exclusion of all else.

And the whole descent into insane mass-murderer thing. :smalltongue:

[Silverraptor]

...no no no, Madara's plan is to summon a tank! :P


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2795/4364437379_d0ef376d2b.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_CmcBOm6kBqo/TLTGueL1p6I/AAAAAAAAAK8/7T0gOsa8-SI/s1600/drive-sword-demotivational-poster.jpg

[Trixie]

...or even this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hB19tHMS94) :smalltongue:

[Thrawn183]

Come on, Madara's Moon Eye Plan can totally be better summed up as this:

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae156/Thrawn318/HalfDoneTakeMeCloserFixed.jpg


Also, just a little bit on the redemption in DBZ thing: don't forget that it was Vegeta that slaughtered one of the seven namekian villages protecting their dragonballs. Not only that, but because of the wish to bring back the namekians killed by frieza and his men, it was only the ones that Vegeta killed that were actually killed permanently.

[Silverraptor]

Come on, Madara's Moon Eye Plan can totally be better summed up as this:

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae156/Thrawn318/HalfDoneTakeMeCloserFixed.jpg



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/93482/1697693-1694972_844808_this_thread_is_unclean_super_super_ super.jpg

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I'm looking forwards to Gaara and dad confronting each other. I found Gaara's story to be the tragic tale of a typical shonen villain, but unlike some other guy he got over it and became a sane, respected leader of his village.

If his father has any reasonable explanation for how things turned out, I'm sincerely interested to hear it. Also interesting - Gaara's dad's eyes when he uses his technique, which is magnetic so unlikely to be linked with Shukaku. Curious.

[Kato]

Well... apart from Naruto being the savior again it was pretty neat... finally some action from old and young Kage. Looking forward to that 4 vs 2 battle, hoping previous Raikage will kick some ass, too.

[Drolyt]

Finally, this is what I've been waiting for since the whole battle started.

[Trixie]

Well... apart from Naruto being the savior again it was pretty neat... finally some action from old and young Kage. Looking forward to that 4 vs 2 battle, hoping previous Raikage will kick some ass, too.

4 vs 2, and 2 out of these 4 know all tricks of the 2.

...Who wants to bet Gaara's flawless victory? :P

[Traab]

I'm looking forwards to Gaara and dad confronting each other. I found Gaara's story to be the tragic tale of a typical shonen villain, but unlike some other guy he got over it and became a sane, respected leader of his village.

If his father has any reasonable explanation for how things turned out, I'm sincerely interested to hear it. Also interesting - Gaara's dad's eyes when he uses his technique, which is magnetic so unlikely to be linked with Shukaku. Curious.

You know who I thought of when it came to garra? Tao Ren from Shaman King. He wanted to crush everyone in his path, was filled with hate, daddy was the direct cause of all this, and he was redeemed by meeting the hero of our story, eventually becoming a friend.

[Drolyt]

4 vs 2, and 2 out of these 4 know all tricks of the 2.

...Who wants to bet Gaara's flawless victory? :P
Yeah, I'm assuming it won't be a 2v4 battle. That would be silly. Old guy should fight his predecessor, Gaara should fight his dad. The other two should fight other guys.

[Kato]

Yeah, I'm assuming it won't be a 2v4 battle. That would be silly. Old guy should fight his predecessor, Gaara should fight his dad. The other two should fight other guys.

Like Naruto and Bee? :smallannoyed:

Also, I'd argue it's more likely the alive ones know the dead ones techniques due to legacy o whatever, not the other way round...

[deuterio12]

You know who I thought of when it came to garra? Tao Ren from Shaman King. He wanted to crush everyone in his path, was filled with hate, daddy was the direct cause of all this, and he was redeemed by meeting the hero of our story, eventually becoming a friend.

Heh, if you look carefully, shonen has several of those.

Vegeta wanted to kill everyone and everything as well, because his daddy had filled him with toughts of superiority, and he gets redeemed after being beaten up by Goku.

[Traab]

Heh, if you look carefully, shonen has several of those.

Vegeta wanted to kill everyone and everything as well, because his daddy had filled him with toughts of superiority, and he gets redeemed after being beaten up by Goku.

True, but shaman king was one of the few shonen I actually watched regularly, so im not as familiar with other series.

[Lurkmoar]

So did Garaa's pops create that gold stuff out of thin air, or did he pull it from the ground or what? I'm not quite sure. With power like that, you could break economy...

I'm a bit curious what the other Kage's can do now. Did like the fact that the previous Raikage believes that their former charges can take him. I'm curious why they think it was Orochimaru that summoned them though.

[Trixie]

Also, I'd argue it's more likely the alive ones know the dead ones techniques due to legacy o whatever, not the other way round...

They might "know" them but the old guys were masters who forgot more about ninja arts than their opponents even learned. Also, unlike Golden-Glowing-Monkey, they shown a thing unheard of in many chapters, careful analysis, tactics, and precise counteraction of enemy's every move.

...of course they're going to lose :smallannoyed:

Also, there are only three metals that are magnetic, gold isn't one of them, is absurdly expensive, and actually, there are a few better (and cheaper) metals to try this whole 'sand is lighter' trick :smallannoyed::smalltongue:

[KnightDisciple]

So did Garaa's pops create that gold stuff out of thin air, or did he pull it from the ground or what? I'm not quite sure. With power like that, you could break economy...

I'm a bit curious what the other Kage's can do now. Did like the fact that the previous Raikage believes that their former charges can take him. I'm curious why they think it was Orochimaru that summoned them though.

Because Kabutomaru's mostly Orochimaru these days. His chakra and whatnot likely feels similar.

[Lurkmoar]

Because Kabutomaru's mostly Orochimaru these days. His chakra and whatnot likely feels similar.

Is everyone a sensor ninja now or something? And I was under the impression that some of those Kages were dead before Orochimaru got infamous... bah, doesn't matter.

Edit: duh, Sand Kage would know about Orochimaru, Orochimaru and his home boys killed the Sand Kage along with his bodyguards. Would explain how Kabuto got a hold of his genetic material too.

[Drolyt]

I'm curious why they think it was Orochimaru that summoned them though.
Way back when they were first shown they discussed who it was that summoned them. At first they thought it was the 2nd Hokage, but Gaara's dad pointed out that he had been dead for a while but there was a guy named Orochimaru who could do it. None of them know Orochimaru is dead, or anything about Kabuto or anything about the war for that matter, neither do they have any idea how long they have been dead. Notice that the older ones act surprised to see the Tsukikage is so old, while Gaara's dad is surprised at how old Gaara is. They don't seem to have had any idea how much time had passed until then.

[Thrawn183]

Yeah, my impression was that they all assume it's Orochimaru because they have no reason to believe otherwise.

[Kato]

They might "know" them but the old guys were masters who forgot more about ninja arts than their opponents even learned. Also, unlike Golden-Glowing-Monkey, they shown a thing unheard of in many chapters, careful analysis, tactics, and precise counteraction of enemy's every move.

...of course they're going to lose :smallannoyed:

Also, there are only three metals that are magnetic, gold isn't one of them, is absurdly expensive, and actually, there are a few better (and cheaper) metals to try this whole 'sand is lighter' trick :smallannoyed::smalltongue:

Well, so the new kages are pussys? o.O And neither Gaara learned anything new after his father died nor did Gimli-kage who was child when his predecessor passed away? I don't think so...


Well, logic and physics never were Kishi's nest friends... and 'gold dust' just sounds cooler than... well, iron dust or whatever common magnetic metal I'm forgetting right now.

[Frozen_Feet]

Also, there are only three metals that are magnetic, gold isn't one of them, is absurdly expensive, and actually, there are a few better (and cheaper) metals to try this whole 'sand is lighter' trick

All materials are affected by magnetic fields to some extent. In a sufficiently strong electromagnetic field, even non-magnetic metals assume magnetic qualities.

The real question is, if the 4th Sunakage can do that, what else could he do?

[Traab]

All materials are affected by magnetic fields to some extent. In a sufficiently strong electromagnetic field, even non-magnetic metals assume magnetic qualities.

The real question is, if the 4th Sunakage can do that, what else could he do?

Wait, garras DAD can use a form of the iron sand technique? I thought that was the third kazekage only?

[Drolyt]

All materials are affected by magnetic fields to some extent. In a sufficiently strong electromagnetic field, even non-magnetic metals assume magnetic qualities.

The real question is, if the 4th Sunakage can do that, what else could he do?
It is entirely possible that the technique, for whatever reason, only works on gold. Historically gold was attributed all manner of mystic attributes, so a special magnetic field that only works on gold isn't too far off for a show about freaking magic ninjas. Why are we debating physics in regard to magic ninjas??? Alternatively, it might not be gold per se, but some sort of alloy, or perhaps a "chakra" gold, similar to how the lightning they manipulate apparently isn't the same as actual lightning (at least that's what I understood from the Sasuke/Itachi fight).

[Trixie]

All materials are affected by magnetic fields to some extent. In a sufficiently strong electromagnetic field, even non-magnetic metals assume magnetic qualities.

Gold, if my memory serves, being noble metal has all electron shells/bands filled, ergo, it has no free electrons, ergo, influence of magnetic fields would be really low :smalltongue:

Lead, being cheap, abundant and heavy would be much better candidate :smallwink:


The real question is, if the 4th Sunakage can do that, what else could he do?

If he can affect gold, then Magneto can barely rise to the level of cleaning his shoes, and he should be able to kill everyone by ripping iron out of their blood :smallsigh:

Seriously, after that absurd 'magnetization' we saw in the beginning of the Chapter (Really, Kubo? Kishi? Whatever author is called? Magnetization of non-metals in flesh? :smalltongue: ) the Sand Kage should be able to move anyone like puppet doll by simply willing it :smalltongue:

...

Also, you know what I found funny? Gaara's father notes his sand grip has gotten stronger... despite said grip doing no damage, when Gaara's first appearance had him squeezing blood out of enemies in explosive fountain. Really, daddy? :smalltongue:

[Lurkmoar]

Well, he wasn't using his dessert coffin, just some hands made out of sand.

[Drolyt]

Gold, if my memory serves, being noble metal has all electron shells/bands filled, ergo, it has no free electrons, ergo, influence of magnetic fields would be really low :smalltongue:
You are confusing noble metal with noble gas. Noble gases have no free spots for electrons to go, noble metals are simply resistant to corrosion. Still, magnetizing gold is very difficult, I think it makes more sense to suppose that Gaara's dad's ability is more of a telekinesis that only works on gold than anything to do with electromagnetism.

[Lord Raziere]

Well, so the new kages are pussys? o.O And neither Gaara learned anything new after his father died nor did Gimli-kage who was child when his predecessor passed away? I don't think so...


no its the old idiotic "older is better" fantasy trope in effect. the father back you go in a fantasy world, the likelier it is that things will be more powerful and that the current age is weak compared to that. their ancestors being stronger than their younger successors is just a toned-down version of that.

really I would like a fantasy setting that makes actual sense for once.

[Drolyt]

no its the old idiotic "older is better" fantasy trope in effect.
It isn't really that idiotic. It doesn't work like that in the real world, but there are ways for it to make sense in a fantasy world. Two main ones: 1. Horrible catastrophe that causes huge loss of knowledge (this one is also possible in Sci-Fi, or indeed the real world) or 2. Knowledge is a more mystical, esoteric thing that requires great discipline and a lot of training/study and can't be recorded easily. If this is the case you wouldn't have the slow to rapid accumulation of knowledge you see in the real world.

To be fair, neither of these seems to be in full effect in Naruto, although the 2nd one kind of applies.

[Lord Raziere]

and now you invoke another bad, overused fantasy cliche! why always with the catastrophes? you'd think people would learn by now not to cause them.

but this is not about those flaws, this is about the flaws of Naruto.

[Traab]

Actually, the most common way it could happen in this world is blood. The initial holders of a bloodline are the strongest because they have that trait the most concentrated in their bodies. Future generations are bloodline holders mixing with non bloodline holders, watering down its potency. You may mention inbreeding to keep the bloodline concentrated, but even then, other problems erupt.

[Kato]

You are confusing noble metal with noble gas. Noble gases have no free spots for electrons to go, noble metals are simply resistant to corrosion. Still, magnetizing gold is very difficult, I think it makes more sense to suppose that Gaara's dad's ability is more of a telekinesis that only works on gold than anything to do with electromagnetism.

Well, not to get too far off-topic but noble metals also have their noble character due to a very specific arrangement of electrons, namely an abundance of free electrons because they are just two electrons short of filling their respective (maximum shell-1)d-shells which causes their (maximum shell)s electrons to take just that energy level so they have a fully filled (maximum shell-1). Which is what makes them noble, though less noble than noble gases but still. Hard to get gold into an actual chemical reaction, or hard enough at least. And yeah, this means it shouldn't react to magnetic fields but I say we file it under 'magic powers' along with magnetizing people.

[VanBuren]

It isn't really that idiotic. It doesn't work like that in the real world, but there are ways for it to make sense in a fantasy world. Two main ones: 1. Horrible catastrophe that causes huge loss of knowledge (this one is also possible in Sci-Fi, or indeed the real world) or 2. Knowledge is a more mystical, esoteric thing that requires great discipline and a lot of training/study and can't be recorded easily. If this is the case you wouldn't have the slow to rapid accumulation of knowledge you see in the real world.

To be fair, neither of these seems to be in full effect in Naruto, although the 2nd one kind of applies.

Reminds me of Greece an how all their myths took place in a distant past where man was nobler.

[Frozen_Feet]

You'd think people would learn by now not to cause them.

Quite a lot of civilization-destroying events, both in real life and fiction, were caused by someting outside the civilization's scope to control. And considering we haven't learned to avert them, what makes you think that's a reasonable demand from fictional folks either? :smalltongue:

[Lurkmoar]

and now you invoke another bad, overused fantasy cliche! why always with the catastrophes? you'd think people would learn by now not to cause them.

but this is not about those flaws, this is about the flaws of Naruto.

I dunno, the old Uchiha compound that Sasuke visited and the Rain village give a real after the end type vibe. The Rain village could look the way it does because of constant warfare. The Uchiha compound was abandoned, but it seemed friggin' HUGE. Looked like a deserted city.

[Xondoure]

no its the old idiotic "older is better" fantasy trope in effect. the father back you go in a fantasy world, the likelier it is that things will be more powerful and that the current age is weak compared to that. their ancestors being stronger than their younger successors is just a toned-down version of that.

really I would like a fantasy setting that makes actual sense for once.

Except in the case of Naruto and most Shonen the trope is reversed. Future generations overcoming the older ones is a bit of a recurring theme here.

[Drolyt]

Quite a lot of civilization-destroying events, both in real life and fiction, were caused by someting outside the civilization's scope to control. And considering we haven't learned to avert them, what makes you think that's a reasonable demand from fictional folks either? :smalltongue:
We haven't? When did we destroy our civilization? Did I miss the apocalypse?

[Kato]

Okay, I'll hold back on the apocalypse jokes...

Yeah, I dare say we didn't really have many civilization destroying events, recently. I guess some old civilisations fell victim to it but we hadn't have anything happening yet...
Though a nuclear holcaust or a meteorite or whatever would easily be able to do just that.


But yeah, over the course of the series most Shonen I can recall had the young ones growing stronger than anything before, though I guess there are exceptions out there. Older is not better. Niether in real life nor in Shonen, it's more a fantasy thing I dare say.

[Trixie]

You are confusing noble metal with noble gas. Noble gases have no free spots for electrons to go, noble metals are simply resistant to corrosion.

As Kato said, sorry, you're mistaken, it's very easy for Noble Metals to assume the same filled state Noble Gases have :P


no its the old idiotic "older is better" fantasy trope in effect. the father back you go in a fantasy world, the likelier it is that things will be more powerful and that the current age is weak compared to that. their ancestors being stronger than their younger successors is just a toned-down version of that.

Care to point out an RPG system where old character that actually fought in war has less levels than young, inexperienced one? :smallwink:

Same with civilizations - resources run out, rare materials become uncommon, mana is used faster than it regenerates. Easy to justify, even in our world the land was once covered in woods with plenty of wild animals, now, we have to try to save scraps that are still left.


and now you invoke another bad, overused fantasy cliche! why always with the catastrophes? you'd think people would learn by now not to cause them.

Do you know what greatest catastrophe for a warrior is? Peace.

The 4 dead guys fought in actual war, amassed a lot of combat experience, and actually learned what works against what in real combat.

Now, their 2 opponents? Grandpa might have fought in war, but he is ancient and doesn't have immortal, strong body. Gaara? He is a kid with zero combat experience. Even all things being equal, these two are in both numbers and experience disadvantage, and I suspect the 4 tops them with skill, too.

Sorry, it's the 'young is better' trope that is *beep*, it's very easy to lose skills that are not cultivated, and it's hard to practice skills you have never opportunity to. Combat skills with magic aren't easily codifiable, every time someone experienced dies unique experience dies with him, never passed along. Take Madara, or Kakashi - his 1000 known jutsus are probably the only place in Konoha where you can find them. Had Jiraya died earlier, there would be no Rasengan - the young generation is living off the scraps of old, even Naruto barely stumbles on path his father set, barely scratching his speed alone despite having advantages his father could not dream of.

[VanBuren]

As Kato said, sorry, you're mistaken, it's very easy for Noble Metals to assume the same filled state Noble Gases have :P



Care to point out an RPG system where old character that actually fought in war has less levels than young, inexperienced one? :smallwink:

Same with civilizations - resources run out, rare materials become uncommon, mana is used faster than it regenerates. Easy to justify, even in our world the land was once covered in woods with plenty of wild animals, now, we have to try to save scraps that are still left.



Do you know what greatest catastrophe for a warrior is? Peace.

The 4 dead guys fought in actual war, amassed a lot of combat experience, and actually learned what works against what in real combat.

Now, their 2 opponents? Grandpa might have fought in war, but he is ancient and doesn't have immortal, strong body. Gaara? He is a kid with zero combat experience. Even all things being equal, these two are in both numbers and experience disadvantage, and I suspect the 4 tops them with skill, too.

Sorry, it's the 'young is better' trope that is *beep*, it's very easy to lose skills that are not cultivated, and it's hard to practice skills you have never opportunity to. Combat skills with magic aren't easily codifiable, every time someone experienced dies unique experience dies with him, never passed along. Take Madara, or Kakashi - his 1000 known jutsus are probably the only place in Konoha where you can find them. Had Jiraya died earlier, there would be no Rasengan - the young generation is living off the scraps of old, even Naruto barely stumbles on path his father set, barely scratching his speed alone despite having advantages his father could not dream of.

Yeah, but progress is achieved by building and improving on the work that came before. So that trope is also based in reality to an extent.

[Trixie]

Yeah, but progress is achieved by building and improving on the work that came before. So that trope is also based in reality to an extent.

I agree. But it mostly deal with arts that can be easily practiced (which for soldiers without war is hard) and don't rely on big pile of expertise of the person in question. Sure, you can give some tips, but it will make a regular out of the rookie at best, while these who actually fought rise to veterans or even elite.

[Xondoure]

...Just to point it out but Naruto has been surpassing his father in various ways for a while now (rasen shuriken anyone?) Now that he's got his speed I think its safe to say he has become far stronger than the 4th.

[Trixie]

...Just to point it out but Naruto has been surpassing his father in various ways for a while now (rasen shuriken anyone?) Now that he's got his speed I think its safe to say he has become far stronger than the 4th.

4th would simply teleport behind him and stab him. Naruto is an [mentally deficient], sorry, his only tactic seems to be jumping on enemy, as per last chapter, and striking him with inconsistently-damaging Rasengan. Meaning once he'll fight someone who wants him close he loses.

Rasen shuriken? He is spamming one technique, he lacks control to simply surround normal shuriken with wind energy for a fraction of price he pays for his techniques.

[Xondoure]

4th would simply teleport behind him and stab him. Naruto is an [mentally deficient], sorry, his only tactic seems to be jumping on enemy, as per last chapter, and striking him with inconsistently-damaging Rasengan. Meaning once he'll fight someone who wants him close he loses.

Rasen shuriken? He is spamming one technique, he lacks control to simply surround normal shuriken with wind energy for a fraction of price he pays for his techniques.

Doubt it would work his tails would defend him from any ambush related threat. Plus how are you saying he lacks control with the few previous chapters? His ninjutsu skills just got seriously upgraded.

And rasenshuriken was a complete form of a technique the fourth himself couldn't master, which is why I brought it up.

[Trixie]

Doubt it would work his tails would defend him from any ambush related threat. Plus how are you saying he lacks control with the few previous chapters? His ninjutsu skills just got seriously upgraded.

Tails don't work against instant teleportation. 4th beat both Raikage and Madara with it, two fastest people alive. Skills? He is still spamming rasengan, call me when he sheathes a pebble in wind energy to do pretty much the same thing, something Sasuke was capable of (with lighting) hundreds of chapters ago). Naruto is literally one trick pony.


And rasenshuriken was a complete form of a technique the fourth himself couldn't master, which is why I brought it up.

Nope, he mastered it, easily. The technique 4th couldn't mater was that black ball 'bomb' technique - because it relies on having Tailed Beast as energy source.

[Frozen_Feet]

We haven't? When did we destroy our civilization? Did I miss the apocalypse?

How many Mayas do you see around? Aztecs? Romans? Several cultures have been annihilated by floods, famine, plagues, and reckless use of resources. Some cultures are dying, even as larger parts of the world thrive. We can sometimes find their remnants (pyramids, foundations of ancient cities buried in sand), and are sometimes left wondering just how did they achieve what they did, because the knowledge has been lost in sands of time.

As for upcoming catastrophes, the ones that'd be closest are non-board safe material, but you can look at various scientific papers to take a look at end-of-the-world scenarios that could happen quite rapidly and we wouldn't have any reasonable means to prevent them yet.

[Drolyt]

How many Mayas do you see around? Aztecs? Romans?
None of those cultures have been completely destroyed though. Both Mayan and Aztec culture have had a huge impact on modern Latin American culture. Roman culture has influenced the entire western world. More than that though, there was no technological loss from the collapse of Rome. In fact, technological advancement sped up after Rome fell. For it to work the way it does in fantasy, civilization collapse would have to at least set the tech back a ways, but it didn't.

[lord_khaine]

Nope, he mastered it, easily. The technique 4th couldn't mater was that black ball 'bomb' technique - because it relies on having Tailed Beast as energy source.

Ahh, this isnt quite correct.

It was directly stated that rasengan was a incomplete teknique that the fourth developed, but newer managet to finish, because he couldnt add elemental manipulation to it.

[Frozen_Feet]

None of those cultures have been completely destroyed though. Both Mayan and Aztec culture have had a huge impact on modern Latin American culture. Roman culture has influenced the entire western world.

They weren't completely erased... but neither were the cultures in a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Middle-Earth is a good example - the world is full of relics from ages long gone, and everyone can trace their origins to cultures that have since vanished, but nonetheless lot of knowledge has been lost in the interim. Complete destruction of the past is not necessary for the trope to be in effect.


More than that though, there was no technological loss from the collapse of Rome. In fact, technological advancement sped up after Rome fell. For it to work the way it does in fantasy, civilization collapse would have to at least set the tech back a ways, but it didn't.

Not quite. In general, technological advancement continued and the "dark ages" were hardly as dark as they were later made to be. Several surgical, architechtural and mathematical techniques were lost, though, and only recently has archeology revealed that they even existed at the time.

And while technological advancement did speed up, that didn't exactly stop people from looking back and thinking the past was better. :smallwink:

[Drolyt]

And while technological advancement did speed up, that didn't exactly stop people from looking back and thinking the past was better. :smallwink:
It may very well have been better. The dark ages weren't as dark as people think, but Rome was something of a golden age for Europe. They had roads, public baths, clean water, surplus food, etc. All that infrastructure was lost. My point is only that the knowledge was, for the most part, not lost, and the recovery time was much shorter than what is typically portrayed in fantasy. Of course, the people who were most intent on showing Rome as a great golden age were from the Renaissance, by which point Western Europe was rich and prosperous again, so yeah, rose colored glasses and all that.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, I am happy to see that somebody mentioned the Uchiha compound, it really DOSE look like an abandon, modern city, for those interested, you can see what it looks like here (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sora-ku). I once actually found a that Naruto took place on a post apoc-earth and thought that would be a very interesting twist for the whole thing...as for what caused the collapse of civilization, well, that would be a big mystery, though the Jubi would be a likely candidate.....though I had a more radical theory regarding this myself, in which the Jubi and Rikudou myths are actually symbolic metaphors...though I won't get into that here as it ventures into some board-unfriendly territory in regards to what they could symbolize...

[Traab]

Thats not the uchiha compound, thats an old abandoned city in ruins the uchiha stored munitions in.

[Trixie]

More than that though, there was no technological loss from the collapse of Rome. In fact, technological advancement sped up after Rome fell. For it to work the way it does in fantasy, civilization collapse would have to at least set the tech back a ways, but it didn't.

No technological loss? Pardon? :smallconfused:

For a thousand years, people could only gape in awe on aqueducts and Roman architecture, 90% of Roman knowledge lost, with some scraps surviving and being expanded upon (say, metallurgy) but Europe as a whole crawled to the level of Roman prosperity 1200 years later, and in some cases, technology was rediscovered after 2000 years.

If that is not a loss, I don't know what is.

The same with technological advancement, Romans advanced faster during the period of the 'full' Empire (300 years) than medieval Europe did in 1100 years, if the rate of advancement had been anywhere near as close to the Roman, pope would have private 747 jet in 1360s. Rome was on a brink of Industrial Revolution, which happened in XVIII-XIX centuries, and only failed in Roman case due to cheapness of slaves, humanity wasn't far from seeing trains and steam carriages in VI-VIII century.


It was directly stated that rasengan was a incomplete teknique that the fourth developed, but newer managet to finish, because he couldnt add elemental manipulation to it.

Again, it's outside cause, Naruto did that only to inside traits Hokage couldn't replicate.

[VanBuren]

Again, it's outside cause, Naruto did that only to inside traits Hokage couldn't replicate.

Goalposts moved.

Whether or not that was the case, Minato still never mastered it.

[Lurkmoar]

Goalposts moved.

Whether or not that was the case, Minato still never mastered it.

He beat his old man in one area, not all of them. Nor do I think he needs to be a successful Hokage. Just needs to work on that whole leadership thing now. :smalltongue:

[Drolyt]

No technological loss? Pardon? :smallconfused:

For a thousand years, people could only gape in awe on aqueducts and Roman architecture, 90% of Roman knowledge lost, with some scraps surviving and being expanded upon (say, metallurgy) but Europe as a whole crawled to the level of Roman prosperity 1200 years later, and in some cases, technology was rediscovered after 2000 years.

If that is not a loss, I don't know what is.

The same with technological advancement, Romans advanced faster during the period of the 'full' Empire (300 years) than medieval Europe did in 1100 years, if the rate of advancement had been anywhere near as close to the Roman, pope would have private 747 jet in 1360s. Rome was on a brink of Industrial Revolution, which happened in XVIII-XIX centuries, and only failed in Roman case due to cheapness of slaves, humanity wasn't far from seeing trains and steam carriages in VI-VIII century.
I don't really feel like debating history but... no. I don't claim to be an expert, but there was this one expert I knew, a professor of mine. He was an anthropologist and one of the world's leading experts on historic metal smelting. The history of technology was the department he taught in. And he liked to joke that the Romans never invented anything. Now, I doubt most would agree that was strictly true, but the fact is technology didn't move very fast in Roman times. Engineering, architecture, etc. were very advanced, but the technological basis was not really lost after the fall of Rome. As for isolated cases of advanced technology like steam engines, so what? They still had no practical method of using those technologies, and they were of no benefit to civilization at the time. There's a difference between losing the knowledge to make vending machines using steam and a lost civilization that had actual steam engines that revolutionized society.

Side note: cheap slavery? Slaves were not cheap in Ancient Rome, they were much more expensive than during the ages of colonialism and imperialism and only very rich Romans had slaves which they used as house servants. Said slaves usually sold themselves into slavery because they were better off than the poor but free. The only time people were forced into slavery was in the case of prisoners of war, and while they provided useful labor the Romans had statutes that limited their use, they could only be kept for so many years and their children were not born slaves so slavery wasn't self-perpetuating. No, the real reason steam was never used for anything is that nobody realized it could, and even if they did the infrastructure was not yet in place, not even in Rome.

[Lord Raziere]

some jokes about this show:

How many Narutos does it take to change a lightbulb?
eight. five to die attacking the lightbulb, one to help form the rasengan, one to smash the rasengan into the lightbulb, and one to give it a friendship speech afterwards.

How many Sasuke's does it take to change a lightbulb?
one, but he needs to use his Sharingan

How many Sakura's does it take to change a lightbulb?
Three. one to stand around worrying and doing nothing, one to love Sasuke, one to go heal someone while Naruto changes the lightbulb.

How many Madara's does it take to change a lightbulb?
One, but he needs 70 years, the formation of an evil organization and the death of his entire clan to do it.

How many Orochimaru's does it take to change a light bulb?
One, but he needs to possess Sasuke first.

How many Pains does it take to change a lightbulb?
Six. Five to go around interrogating people where the light bulb is, and one to destroy the entire village afterwards.

[Drolyt]

some jokes about this show:

How many Narutos does it take to change a lightbulb?
eight. five to die attacking the lightbulb, one to help form the rasengan, one to smash the rasengan into the lightbulb, and one to give it a friendship speech afterwards.

How many Sasuke's does it take to change a lightbulb?
one, but he needs to use his Sharingan

How many Sakura's does it take to change a lightbulb?
Three. one to stand around worrying and doing nothing, one to love Sasuke, one to go heal someone while Naruto changes the lightbulb.

How many Madara's does it take to change a lightbulb?
One, but he needs 70 years, the formation of an evil organization and the death of his entire clan to do it.

How many Orochimaru's does it take to change a light bulb?
One, but he needs to possess Sasuke first.

How many Pains does it take to change a lightbulb?
Six. Five to go around interrogating people where the light bulb is, and one to destroy the entire village afterwards.
Not bad, but I feel sorry for the lightbulbs. Maybe we should put someone else in charge of that, like Kakashi?

[DiscipleofBob]

some jokes about this show:

How many Narutos does it take to change a lightbulb?
eight. five to die attacking the lightbulb, one to help form the rasengan, one to smash the rasengan into the lightbulb, and one to give it a friendship speech afterwards.

How many Sasuke's does it take to change a lightbulb?
one, but he needs to use his Sharingan

How many Sakura's does it take to change a lightbulb?
Three. one to stand around worrying and doing nothing, one to love Sasuke, one to go heal someone while Naruto changes the lightbulb.

How many Madara's does it take to change a lightbulb?
One, but he needs 70 years, the formation of an evil organization and the death of his entire clan to do it.

How many Orochimaru's does it take to change a light bulb?
One, but he needs to possess Sasuke first.

How many Pains does it take to change a lightbulb?
Six. Five to go around interrogating people where the light bulb is, and one to destroy the entire village afterwards.


How many Hinata's does it take to change a lightbulb?
Three. One to change the lightbulb, one to keep watch for Naruto, and the other to actively stalk Naruto and faint at the first sight of him/

How many Kiba's does it take to change a lightbulb?
Two. Akamaru is going to be there anyway, and getting a solid grip with those paws is tougher than it looks.

How many Shino's does it take to change a lightbulb?
None. The bugs do it for him.

How many Shikamaru's does it take to change a lightbulb?
Trick question. He can't really use Kagemane no Jutsu on a light source now can he?

How many Ino's does it take to change a lightbulb?
One, but she'll possess someone else to do it for her.

How many Chouji's does it take to change a lightbulb?
No matter how many Chouji's there are, their snack-food-encrusted hands make it impossible to safely change the lightbulb.

How many Rock Lee's does it take to change a lightbulb?
Three. One Rock Lee to fail at changing the lightbulb, and one Maito Gai to do it for him (they both count as Rock Lees or Maito Gais interchangeably) and one of either to clean up the destroyed building afterward.

How many Tenten's does it take to change a lightbulb?
One, and she gets it right the first time. 100% Accuracy.

How many Neji's does it take to change a lightbulb?
One, but he changes it 128 times.

Okay, not the funniest, but I tried.

[Traab]

How many narutos does it take to change a light bulb?
1000. 999 to wear down the bulbs resistance, 1 to use an incredibly flashy move to change it, that hurts him badly.

How many nejis does it take to change a light bulb?

None, if it is the light bulbs fate to be changed, it will be.

How many shikamarus does it take to change a light bulb?

Normally only one, but its way too troublesome to do it.

How many Inos does it take to change a light bulb?

One to nag choji and shikamaru until they do it.

[Kato]

Sounds much better than discussing Roman history...

Okay, I was going to start with a Itachii one but... I don't think I'll touch that topic with a 10 ft pole.

How many Tentens does it take to change a light bulb?

It's impossible. She'd easily do it but nobody ever lets her do anything.


How many Raikages does it take to change a light bulb?

Two. One two break the light bulb trying to change it and one to smash holes in all the walls so there is no need for another light bulb.


How many Madaras does it take to change a light bulb?

Why would he want to change the light bulb? If it's dark he can finally take off that stupid mask of his.


How many Asumas does it take to change a light bulb?

None. Asuma is dead! Haha! (poorly done reference)

[VanBuren]

How many Tenten's does it take to change a lightbulb?
One, and she gets it right the first time. 100% Accuracy.

One, and she gets right the first time. But it happens offscreen, and nobody ever mentions it.

[DiscipleofBob]

Okay, the other two Tentens were definitely better than mine.

How many Temaris does it take to change a lightbulb?
We're still figuring that one out. Everytime she tries, either her fan or the weasel breaks it.

How many Kankuros does it take to change a lightbulb?
Anywhere from 0 to 3 depending on whether or not you count the puppets.

How many Gaaras does it take to change a lightbulb?
Despite the fact that Gaara can not only change an infinite number of light bulbs at once, and make the lightbulbs from scratch, he still needs at least one entire village to back him up.

How many of Orochimaru's Sound 5 does it take to change a lightbulb?
Are you kidding? They couldn't even beat a few gennin in bright-colored jumpsuits, why would they be given the important task of changing a lightbulb?

[Traab]

How many Kankuros does it take to change a lightbulb?

Anywhere from 0 to 3 depending on whether or not you count the puppets.


Bah, it goes like this.

How many Kankuros does it take to change a light bulb?

Only one but it takes awhile as he is still doing his makeup.

[Kato]

Oh, I got another one.

How many Minatos does it take to change a lightbulb?

Only one but it takes him 15 years because he must pass the important mission of changing the light bulb on to his son.


How many Obito's does it take to change a light bulb?

Exactly as many as Madaras because they are the same person (:smalltongue: Yeah, just kidding, calm down.)


How many Gais does it take to change a light bulb?

Three. One to change the light bulb. One to change the light bulb in a competition with Kakashi. And one to show Lee how to change a light bulb with the spirit of Youth!

[VanBuren]

How many Gais does it take to change a light bulb?

Three. One to change the light bulb. One to change the light bulb in a competition with Kakashi. And one to show Lee how to change a light bulb with the spirit of Youth!


DYNAAAAAAAMIC MAAAINTEEENANCE!

[DiscipleofBob]

How many Sasoris does it take to change a lightbulb?
Hundred. Because that's how he rolls.

How many Deidaras does it take to change a lightbulb?
We'll let you know as soon as we find all the pieces. "Of Deidara or the lightbulb?" Both.

How many Itachis does it take to change a lightbulb?
One, and in the time it took to change one lightbulb you've experienced a thousand years of torture, but it's okay because he's really a good guy.

How many Kisames does it take to change a lightbulb?
Four. Two (Kisame and Samehada) to change the lightbulb, and two more to find a replacement for the wet shorted out lightbulb. Granted, they haven't successfully changed the lightbulb without shorting it out yet, but they're working on it.

How many Hidans does it take to change a lightbulb?
One, but since he uses his self-infliction voodoo jutsu, you REALLY don't want to know how.

How many Kikazus does it take to change a lightbulb?
Five.

How many Zetsus does it take to change a lightbulb?
OH GOD THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!!

[Lurkmoar]

You guys are completely out of control and I approve.

That said, I'm interested in hearing other people's thought's about Madara's Paths of Pain. Will they have the same abilities as Nagato's, will they have their Jinchuriki based powers, both sets of skills or something totally different?

[Traab]

You guys are completely out of control and I approve.

That said, I'm interested in hearing other people's thought's about Madara's Paths of Pain. Will they have the same abilities as Nagato's, will they have their Jinchuriki based powers, both sets of skills or something totally different?

Considering power creep, im going to say both jinchuriki power and path power. Kishi will justify it by claiming that as former demon vessels, their bodies are different than peins choices, and so they get to be ten times as deadly. Look for links between the demon abilities and the path abilities.

[Trixie]

You guys are completely out of control and I approve.

...Yeah, this new thread title must have cursed it :smalltongue:

[Aka-chan]

Yeah, I am happy to see that somebody mentioned the Uchiha compound, it really DOSE look like an abandon, modern city, for those interested, you can see what it looks like here (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sora-ku).

What I thought was interesting, as far as modern-looking places in Naruto, is the Hidden Rain Village. They have skyscraper-ish buildings, power lines crossing between some of the buildings, and things that look like they could be lighted signs. It looks much more like a modern city than the other Hidden Villages we've seen. Considering that war often acts as an impetus for technological advancement, I wonder if this is because the constant state of war they were in before Pain took over led to them developing technology more rapidly than the other nations did.

[Kato]

What I thought was interesting, as far as modern-looking places in Naruto, is the Hidden Rain Village. They have skyscraper-ish buildings, power lines crossing between some of the buildings, and things that look like they could be lighted signs. It looks much more like a modern city than the other Hidden Villages we've seen. Considering that war often acts as an impetus for technological advancement, I wonder if this is because the constant state of war they were in before Pain took over led to them developing technology more rapidly than the other nations did.

Honestly? I don't think so. Konoha has been shown to have computers and othe high tech equipment as well. Either a 'normal' hidden village just prefers the old fashioned style or it's coincidental. If anything maybe because Ame kept being destroyed they didn't have many old buildings to stick to, or they don't have much space and thus have to build high but there's little to indicate they are/were on a higher technological level than the rest of the world.

[Lurkmoar]

Honestly? I don't think so. Konoha has been shown to have computers and othe high tech equipment as well. Either a 'normal' hidden village just prefers the old fashioned style or it's coincidental. If anything maybe because Ame kept being destroyed they didn't have many old buildings to stick to, or they don't have much space and thus have to build high but there's little to indicate they are/were on a higher technological level than the rest of the world.

And the major villages did have those weird camera things for the Kage video conference. Powered by batteries.

[Traab]

And the major villages did have those weird camera things for the Kage video conference. Powered by batteries.

And radio headsets for kakashi and team 7 back at the start of the series. If they could afford to give 4 radio sets to a newly graduated genin team to hunt tora, they have to be fairly common. That honestly implies to me a post apocalyptic world where some tech has been lost and others have been kept. They use horse drawn carriages, and sail boats, but they have computers, radios, and electricity. They use medieval weaponry, and they have slot machines. The most logical conclusions are post apoc, or they made a conscious choice to hold to tradition and only accept certain new technologies.

Sort of like in that movie, The Last Samurai. Do they stick with samurai, swords, archers, and their classic styles of warfare, dress, and culture? Or do they embrace new things and ways of living? Perhaps the elemental nations had a chance to choose to switch to "modern" warfare, and decided to stick with ninja and samurai, and to pick and choose what sort of technology they wanted? I know Snow Country had that large train. But it was apparently hybridized to work with chakra to do things like melt the tracks in front of it.

[Drolyt]

I'm guessing the schizo tech can be explained thusly: necessity is the mother of invention. Because weapons technology would have to advance leaps and bounds to be more useful than a ninja, it never advances much at all. Since the military is responsible for a lot of tech advancement, a lot of it never occurs. Some stuff gets invented purely by chance, but the Naruto world is still nowhere near as advanced as real life.

Alternatively, lack of resources. They have some way to create electricity, but no fossil fuels. Since they haven't advanced enough to create electric cars they still use horses and what have you.

[Frozen_Feet]

Ninjutsu, and everything pertaining to it, is weapons technology. Many singular jutsus we've seen are more powerful than conventional weaponry of our world, and need less expensive equipment to be carried around. To say Naruto world is "less advanced" in that regard is a total misnomer. They have the means to make a preteen kid superhuman in every regard. What in modern armies of our world lives up to that?

It could even be that the reason we don't see some techs is not because they weren't invented - but because they were obsoleted.

[Trixie]

Ninjutsu, and everything pertaining to it, is weapons technology. Many singular jutsus we've seen are more powerful than conventional weaponry of our world, and need less expensive equipment to be carried around. To say Naruto world is "less advanced" in that regard is a total misnomer. They have the means to make a preteen kid superhuman in every regard. What in modern armies of our world lives up to that?

It could even be that the reason we don't see some techs is not because they weren't invented - but because they were obsoleted.

Modern armies, I don't know, have snipers capable of punching through the skull of a ninja with a 10 mm bullet from 3 km? In night? We're talking about guys killable by shurikens, after all.

Or how about kevlar vests, fireproof clothing, completely silent pistols, ID systems Zetsu can't fool, or ability to bomb ninja villages from 10 km? :smalltongue:

Or how about pair of good boots, not these funny sandals? ;P

[Traab]

Modern armies, I don't know, have snipers capable of punching through the skull of a ninja with a 10 mm bullet from 3 km? In night? We're talking about guys killable by shurikens, after all.

Or how about kevlar vests, fireproof clothing, completely silent pistols, ID systems Zetsu can't fool, or ability to bomb ninja villages from 10 km? :smalltongue:

Or how about pair of good boots, not these funny sandals? ;P

True, but there are also a LOT of intermediate levels between swords and sniper rifles. And lets face it, who the hell would even WANT a musket if you had ninja skills already? Early guns may have had sucky reload times, aim, and a host of other down sides, but they were still powerful and effective, but against ninja? Bleh. They never would have even gotten started because they would have developed a gun, seen how much it sucked, and abandoned the whole project.

[Frozen_Feet]

Lets think about camouflage:

There's a skill, teachable to elementary school kids, that lets them disguise themselves as anything and everything. A technique that makes it seem they got hit, when they really weren't, and a technique that creates illusory stunt doubles that pass off as real very easily.

Sniper rifles? Excuse me, but these guys can become so undetectable and be so fast you can't keep track of them with a scope, provided you know they're in the general area.

Let's think about body armor:

Okay, so some of these guys can punch through concrete. Others can take those punches with little harm to themselves. Fireproof clothing? What about it? These guys can walk on rock that was just schorched by flames and not break a sweat. Some of them can probably inhale flames and come out better for it.

ID systems Zetsu can't fool? What would those be? It's a perfect physical clone, down to DNA if you let them last long enough. What modern system you propose would trip them?

Ability to bomb villages from 10 km? That's not remotely as useful as you'd think. These are people who can run on any surface at speeds equivalent to motor vehicles. Anything short of nukes, and they can disperse so fast and over such a wide area you won't have any hope winning the ensuing asymmetric warfare. (See also: the above camouflage skills.) Plus, some inviduals have shown the capability to deflect attacks equivalent to artillery strikes, or even tactical nukes.

[Aka-chan]

And radio headsets for kakashi and team 7 back at the start of the series. If they could afford to give 4 radio sets to a newly graduated genin team to hunt tora, they have to be fairly common. That honestly implies to me a post apocalyptic world where some tech has been lost and others have been kept. They use horse drawn carriages, and sail boats, but they have computers, radios, and electricity. They use medieval weaponry, and they have slot machines. The most logical conclusions are post apoc, or they made a conscious choice to hold to tradition and only accept certain new technologies.

Sort of like in that movie, The Last Samurai. Do they stick with samurai, swords, archers, and their classic styles of warfare, dress, and culture? Or do they embrace new things and ways of living? Perhaps the elemental nations had a chance to choose to switch to "modern" warfare, and decided to stick with ninja and samurai, and to pick and choose what sort of technology they wanted? I know Snow Country had that large train. But it was apparently hybridized to work with chakra to do things like melt the tracks in front of it.

Hmm, those are both interesting possibilities. The idea of a post-apocalyptic society seems particularly plausible given what we now know about the Sage of the Six Paths defeating/dispersing the Jyuubi. Perhaps the Ten-Tails was the apocalypse in question, with the Sage defeating it and then picking up the pieces of civilzation afterward? (BTW, I've seen people in posts since mine referring to recent manga events without spoiler tags, so I'm assuming that talking about the Jyuubi and stuff is okay. But I'm really new here, so if I should put that in spoiler tags, let me know.)


Ninjutsu, and everything pertaining to it, is weapons technology. Many singular jutsus we've seen are more powerful than conventional weaponry of our world, and need less expensive equipment to be carried around. To say Naruto world is "less advanced" in that regard is a total misnomer. They have the means to make a preteen kid superhuman in every regard. What in modern armies of our world lives up to that?

It could even be that the reason we don't see some techs is not because they weren't invented - but because they were obsoleted.

Hmm, I like that idea too--that other modern technologies were developed, but that a lot of them just weren't as useful in the Narutoverse as they were in the real world, and so people just didn't bother ever using them, whereas others that were comparably useful stuck around.

This discussion of what "superior" technology would mean in a setting like the Narutoverse reminds me of a dream I had once, in which someone in the Narutoverse had invented the revolver. At that point, Konoha and the Akatsuki were basically in a state of open war, and both sides were scrambling to track down the single prototype gun before their opponents, because they believed that whichever side could obtain it, reverse-engineer it, and mass-produce it first, would win the war. While I was in the dream, it seemed perfectly logical that a six-shooter would constitute an auto-win button for whichever side managed to mass-produce them, but when I woke up I thought, "Hmm, I'm not so sure such a relatively simple gun would really be so significant in that setting."

Then again, the clerics of Gond in FR must keep smokepowder such a closely-guarded secret for a reason...

[Frozen_Feet]

Consider for a moment how a decently-trained Futon user can throw knives through trees and then have them cleave stone. Very few infantry firearms actually do that with regular ammo. And then we get to people like Temari who can level forests with a fan. A revolver does not cut it, pun very much intended.

[Lord Raziere]

well here is the problem with guns, which is the problem with any ranged weapon: their accuracy is far from 100%, and when you have the clone jutsu thing going on, its even harder to hit causes everyone has multiple clones everywhere causing you waste bullets on illusions and then there is the replacement jutsu, where if you shoot at a ninja and actually hit, you could wind up hitting your buddy instead. or worse, yourself and finally, disguise jutsu where the ninja can just disguise as enemy soldier with their uniform, where until their guard is down, kill them, take their gun and destroy it.

basically, all three basic jutsu make guns useless, combined with the various more advanced jutsu that causes a lot of destruction, shadow clone jutsu that can take the bullet for you and serve as scouts and you can kiss those uniformed armies of gunners goodbye.

[Traab]

Hmm, those are both interesting possibilities. The idea of a post-apocalyptic society seems particularly plausible given what we now know about the Sage of the Six Paths defeating/dispersing the Jyuubi. Perhaps the Ten-Tails was the apocalypse in question, with the Sage defeating it and then picking up the pieces of civilzation afterward? (BTW, I've seen people in posts since mine referring to recent manga events without spoiler tags, so I'm assuming that talking about the Jyuubi and stuff is okay. But I'm really new here, so if I should put that in spoiler tags, let me know.)



Hmm, I like that idea too--that other modern technologies were developed, but that a lot of them just weren't as useful in the Narutoverse as they were in the real world, and so people just didn't bother ever using them, whereas others that were comparably useful stuck around.

This discussion of what "superior" technology would mean in a setting like the Narutoverse reminds me of a dream I had once, in which someone in the Narutoverse had invented the revolver. At that point, Konoha and the Akatsuki were basically in a state of open war, and both sides were scrambling to track down the single prototype gun before their opponents, because they believed that whichever side could obtain it, reverse-engineer it, and mass-produce it first, would win the war. While I was in the dream, it seemed perfectly logical that a six-shooter would constitute an auto-win button for whichever side managed to mass-produce them, but when I woke up I thought, "Hmm, I'm not so sure such a relatively simple gun would really be so significant in that setting."

Then again, the clerics of Gond in FR must keep smokepowder such a closely-guarded secret for a reason...

It is definitely plausible that the jyuubi caused an apocalypse, and it happened far enough back to lose knowledge that wasnt immediately vital, or capable of reproducing for whatever reason.

The problem with "modern" tech is that it doesnt start out at 21st century level. Take guns, even the six shooter you mentioned was WAY more advanced than the first guns. Single shots, take a good 20 seconds or more to reload, and horribly inaccurate past 20 or so yards. Remember the classic pistol duels? TEN PACES and you had times were both would miss each other standing right across from each other. Its not even all about bad aim, its about CRAPPY guns with all sorts of defects that vary from shot to shot effecting the aim.

The smoke powder invented by the priests of Gond was a threat because you didnt have entire armies of people capable of hitting you with bolts of lightning, fireballs the size of houses, blades of wind you cant even see, or spears of earth with 2 seconds of wiggling your fingers. Even wizards would have been slaughtered in short order. Gunpowder was way more of a threat in the forgotten realms than it would be in the elemental nations.

[Fjolnir]

In a couple of the movies there are trains, in one there are airships with kunai guns, movie theaters exist as well. I think that the ninja world as primative is somewhat of a affectation and one of the reasons we don't see many modern conveniences is that the villages are slightly austere due to their military nature...

[Fjolnir]

DYNAAAAAAAMIC MAAAINTEEENANCE!

The only thing I can think of is might guy, kicking through a wall wearing coveralls and carrying a lightbulb and stepladder...

[Drolyt]

It could even be that the reason we don't see some techs is not because they weren't invented - but because they were obsoleted.
This I doubt. The fact is weapons technology comparable to what we have in the real world never developed because all of the intervening steps were useless, you would have to have tech equivalent to early 20th century Earth at the least to make it worthwhile. Could a 21st real world military compete with armies in the Naruto world? Yes, I think so, although the ninjas would put up a good fight.

Throw in my "no fossil fuels" theory and we even have an explanation for why there are no cars, even if tech is otherwise similar to modern earth.

[Dvandemon]

While they may not have cars they do have amazing examples of tech in the Narutovers. In the movie with the Ice Nin they had, in order of advancement: movies, trains, hover vehicles and a massive weather machine. In the Gelel stone movie they had: A walking fortress, artificial lifeform generators and the capability to summon a black hole, from an evidently ancient society that may have almost dominated the world.

Yeh, I'm firmly in the camp of Post-Apoc Sci-Fi world with the existence of actual, factual demons.

[Drolyt]

I still don't get why there needs to be an apocalypse. Why couldn't the Naruto verse have simply evolved differently? (Technological evolution, not the biological kind. Although that is probably different as well.)

[Kato]

Just on the matter of technological advancement...

I can see how a ninja is per se a one-man army we are mostly talking about the more advance ninjas. Iruka wouldn't be able to level a forest the way Temari does, nor is your average ninja able to use Futon and pierce boulders with a shuriken. (Kawamiri aside which is hax if it's as useful as implied early on and probably wasn't used for a long time for a reason)
If we arm a dozen low level ninjas with decent machine guns the Zetsu army gets seriously decimated.
And on other matters, not everyone is a ninja. If they'd actually cared to build cars and the like (which I think they MUST have done because they used a crane to build the bridge in the land of waves arc, iirc) everyday life would be much more comfortable.

So, yes, miodern technology would help out even with the obscene powers a high level ninja has, because not everyone has it. I guess they... just didn't develop them maybe ebcause of more complicated reasons or because of a lack of resources or whatever. Probably because 'rule of cool'.

[DiscipleofBob]

Just on the matter of technological advancement...

I can see how a ninja is per se a one-man army we are mostly talking about the more advance ninjas. Iruka wouldn't be able to level a forest the way Temari does, nor is your average ninja able to use Futon and pierce boulders with a shuriken. (Kawamiri aside which is hax if it's as useful as implied early on and probably wasn't used for a long time for a reason)
If we arm a dozen low level ninjas with decent machine guns the Zetsu army gets seriously decimated.


Two things.

One, even random Gennin, supposedly basically the level of grunts or apprentice ninja, are capable of the kinds of feats that make a lot of military technology obsolete. Just look at the Chuunin Exam arc.

Two, regarding the resources VS obsolete technology arguments, there's one major resource that the Narutoverse has that we don't: chakra. And it's such a versatile resource it can do everything from power machinery to instantly teleport just about anything to enable kids to use very destructive firepower far superior to most standard issue military arms.

Also, a dozen machine guns would do jack against the Zetsu armies. Most of the bullets wouldn't hit, the clip would run out in a matter of seconds at most (most likely less than a second depending on the type of firearm used), and those are small piercing wounds that are probably such that the Zetsu could probably heal them.

[Traab]

I still don't get why there needs to be an apocalypse. Why couldn't the Naruto verse have simply evolved differently? (Technological evolution, not the biological kind. Although that is probably different as well.)

Because there are huge gaps in their tech that dont make sense. I can understand the weapons staying at sword level considering the sheer distance up the tech ladder they would have to go to find something equal or better than ninjas, but they have such odd bits of tech here and there and it makes little sense. They use wagons and carriages, and yet snow has a train. And even more odd, a train they stopped using for years for reasons that are never explained. They have wireless radio sets, and yet they use BIRDS to pass on messages.

[Kato]

Two things.

One, even random Gennin, supposedly basically the level of grunts or apprentice ninja, are capable of the kinds of feats that make a lot of military technology obsolete. Just look at the Chuunin Exam arc.

Two, regarding the resources VS obsolete technology arguments, there's one major resource that the Narutoverse has that we don't: chakra. And it's such a versatile resource it can do everything from power machinery to instantly teleport just about anything to enable kids to use very destructive firepower far superior to most standard issue military arms.

Also, a dozen machine guns would do jack against the Zetsu armies. Most of the bullets wouldn't hit, the clip would run out in a matter of seconds at most (most likely less than a second depending on the type of firearm used), and those are small piercing wounds that are probably such that the Zetsu could probably heal them.

Well, again, the Genin in the exam weren't random mooks but kind of elite already. And I think a simple pistol would have been gandy tool against many people in the exam, though of course not all.

I didn't disagree with chakra or ninjutsu being much more powerful potentially but it's something only available to a part of society. A dock worker can't open a gate of a crate is to heavy. He'd want a forklift for that. You can't have ninjas work your fields all the time, you'd want tools for that. And so on. It just be much more useful for society in general. (And again, your general kid in the show is not stronger than a serious military armament, we just get to see the better students all the time)

Finally, when I say machine gun I'm not talking about the 6 pound toys every soldier has but apout a serious, at least 20 pound GUN with man-stopper ammunition that rips half your torso to shreds. And not with clips but with a decent sized belt. Sure, you can't beat the army wit a dozen of them but heck if you can't hurt the Zetsu's. more than a shuriken by an average ninja could. Of course, Tenten or the like could still out damage it but as said, not everyone is elite. But with decent weapons they could come closer to it.

What else... oh, yeah, I'm not saying they should have weapons, because weapon development is tedious and they'd start with rather poor stuff, as people pointed out. But society should have other things, e.g. cars of there was no other reason not to invent it but there being ninjas.

[VanBuren]

Chunin aren't really elite, though. They're basically supposed to be your baseline average rank. It's only when you get higher than that that you're supposed to run into elite ninja.

Granted, we've seen that the ranking system isn't really gospel, what with Naruto being a Genin and all that jazz.

[Xondoure]

Jinchuriki is its own rank.

[VanBuren]

Jinchuriki is its own rank.

He's also a Sage now too.

[Traab]

He's also a Sage now too.

Seriously, the chunin exams after this war is over are going to be hilarious when they see naruto show up to compete.

[Dvandemon]

EDIT: On the subject of chakra resources, just about anyone could learn to use it, all it takes is physical training and meditation. Imagine the ending of Shaolin Soccer but with Ninjustu instead of kung-fu
I still don't get why there needs to be an apocalypse. Why couldn't the Naruto verse have simply evolved differently? (Technological evolution, not the biological kind. Although that is probably different as well.)

I'll submit the fact that there were demonic forces and tyrants with great power before the invention of Ninjutsu, so I'm leaning towards any kind of post-disaster world.

[Fjolnir]

I actually hope they redeem sasuke so the last arc ends with them doing the chuunin exams together(then some sort of obligatory time skip to hokage naruto)

[Lord Raziere]

Seriously, the chunin exams after this war is over are going to be hilarious when they see naruto show up to compete.

yea.....there seems something a little wrong with that system there.....by now he should've been gotten to Jonin by field promotion or something, I mean the guy saved the entire village twice, doesn't kinda at least award him the green vest or something? I mean the guy is a therapy jutsu spouting idiot but, he HAS shown very good tactics worthy of a chunin at least. it wouldn't even make sense for him to go in, he is beyond the freaking chunin exam.

I mean really, he is like in the military, what kind of military holds someone that powerful back just because they didn't pass some stupid exam that they are already far beyond capable of doing?

[Tebryn]

Because the Ranks are not about power. They are about leadership and teaching roles. Something Naruto at the time wasn't really capable of doing.

[Lord Raziere]

two thirds of the exam was people beating each other up. only one third of said exam actually involved teams, the other two thirds everyone being alone. said third of the exam that involved teams wasn't really monitored.

how does any of this test leadership? one measures how well you cheat, one measures whether or not you get through a forest, and the last tests how well you defeat your opponent with your brain in single combat. what does any of that test having to do with actually working together?

[Douglas]

Seriously, the chunin exams after this war is over are going to be hilarious when they see naruto show up to compete.
That's the only continuation idea I've heard yet that I think would be worthwhile after the ninja war arc is over, Madara is defeated, and Sasuke's plot arc is resolved somehow. It would pretty much have to be a comedy, though, about how absurdly overpowered Naruto is compared to the people the exam is intended for, and that would be a rather drastic mood and style shift from the deadly seriousness of a potentially world-ending war that's the current focus.

Or Konoha could just end up with the first genin Hokage ever, and keep him at that rank as a joke.

[lord_khaine]

Or Konoha could just end up with the first genin Hokage ever, and keep him at that rank as a joke.

I actualy think that joke is quite good :smallsmile:

[Traab]

I actualy think that joke is quite good :smallsmile:

It would be a great callback to his pledge to Ibiki at the end of the first stage when he did his big mind game of forever losing their chance to be a chunin if they messed up. Something along the lines of, "I dont care! If I have to, ill be the first genin to be named hokage!"

[VanBuren]

I actually hope they redeem sasuke so the last arc ends with them doing the chuunin exams together(then some sort of obligatory time skip to hokage naruto)

"Yeah, Sasuke and I would like to enter as a team of two."

"I'm afraid that's against the regulations. A team of two would be at a major disadvantage compared to the other teams."

"You know, I think we'll be all right."