Replacing limited SLAs with "Cast as" abilities in monsters

[Andorax]

Would like a general opinion about some modifications I've been tinkering with. Specifically, I've been looking at some different types of monsters that have an assortment of spell-like abilities that works just fine as-is, but is highly limiting for any attempts at advancing the monster.

So I've been looking at variations that replace a block of SLAs with "can cast as a _____ of level __" that provides as close of a parallel to the original set of abilities as possible, but also opens up some variation.


Just as a sample, here's my take on the Ogre Mage:

Replace all spell-like abilities with:

Can cast spells as an 8th level Sorcerer (with special permission to select spells from the Wu Jen list).

Gains:

6/7/7/5/3 spells: more variety of accessable spells (with more options).

Several 1/day abilities now accessible multiple times per day.

Losses:

SLAs of the Ogre Mage were at L9. This cuts the CL of the spell-like abilities, but only slightly.

Ogre Mage is also losing out on top-end ability (Cone of Cold as a 5th), having to trade it down for a lesser spell (Steam Breath).

Finally, the Ogre Mage is losing out on two at-will spells...sorcerors get a lot of slots, but this is still a downgrade.


Typical spell list for an Ogre Mage:

0: Touch of Fatigue, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message
1: Sleep*, Charm Person*, Scales of the Lizard^, Hail of Stone^, Disguise Self
2: Darkness*, Invisibility*, Entangling Scarf^
3: Gaseous Form*, Steam Breath^
4: Polymorph*

* This is one of his pre-existing spell-like abilities.
^ Wu-Jen spell from Complate Arcane, added to give the Ogre Mage some oriental flair.


Commentary:

There are some genuine tactical changes to the Ogre Mage, but not overwhelming ones, from this variant. Steam Breath is a d6 smaller and 30' shorter than Cone of Cold, but it's still a solid "boom" ability, and repeatable instead of one-shot.

Likewise, having multiple uses of Polymorph Self, Charm Person and Gaseous Form allows for a number of additional creative tactical options...options that simply wouldn't be there with the once-a-day nature of his original abilities. The loss of Darkness and Invisibility at will is a bit tough, but there's still enough daily uses of them to allow for most similar tactical situations to still be useful.

All in all, the Ogre Mage is given some more flexibility as a trickster, or as a "boom" mage, instead of one-shot, one-trick and out abilities in these areas.


However, the one area in which this becomes a SIGNIFICANT change is allowing for further customization of the Ogre Mage. Using this variant as a base opens up options like:

Battlecaster Offensive (CM) makes for an interesting take on the spell-by-talent, sword-by-physical-form nature of the Ogre Mage.

Fiery Burst and Shadow Veil are Reserve feats (CM) that give back some of the at will ability that's been lost, and an additional feat (with any sort of advancement) could make good use of Minor Shapeshift as well.


And the biggest change of all: Advancement by Class. Sorcerer levels now become a VERY beneficial choice for advancing Ogre Magi instead of a very sub-optimal choice. They can now build on their own innate magical ability.

An Ogre Mage Sor 2 (CR 10) with the above variants gets Cone of Cold back on the menu, along with an added 0, 2, 3 and 4 known (Wall of Gloom^, Major Image, and Lesser Spirit Binding^ would make interesting choices).



Thoughts? Comments? If there's interest, I'll post a couple of other ones that I've been experimenting with along these same lines.

[Andorax]

Sorry to self-bump, and mods if I'm out of line here please feel free to lock it into oblivion.

No thoughts? No comments? I'm a newcommer to the 3.5E forum here, so I was more than a bit surprised to see this on page 3 already. I'd love to know if this sounds like a solid concept or if it's just a waste of pixels.

[Urpriest]

Bad idea. Some of the most broken uses of shapeshifting and summoning magic involve access to creatures with built-in spells, and you've just substantially widened that list.

[Runestar]

I think it is a very fun idea if viewed solely from a monster vs player scope. It would allow you to customise its abilities and provide some variety to normal fights.

I did it a few times (mine was replacing the ogre mage's SLAs with wiz9 spellcasting and increasing his HD to 8 to make him more durable). I also bumped his cr to 9 and replaced his regen with fast healing. Didn't really find him overpowering. He took off his armour, buffed with displacement and stoneskin, then led battle with cone of cold, deep slumber and so on. A greater mirror image certainly didn't hurt either. He proved fun and effective.

If you look through the book, you realise there are precedents for spellcaster lv = 1+ cr, so I think that is a safe threshold to thread.

What other others do you have in mind? Typically, I would allow SLA's caster lv to scale with HD (or cr in that aspect), and it may be boring if every such monster ended up taking eldritch knight instead. :smalltongue:


Bad idea. Some of the most broken uses of shapeshifting and summoning magic involve access to creatures with built-in spells, and you've just substantially widened that list.

If that is the problem, then simply highlight to the players that any creature they summon is the unmodified version.

[Ernir]

You are powering up the monster.

As long as you realize that any monster power-ups you make might potentially end up in the hands of players, you should be fine.

This is an idea I am toying with myself, by the way. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Bad idea. Some of the most broken uses of shapeshifting and summoning magic involve access to creatures with built-in spells, and you've just substantially widened that list.

One option I remember reading somewhere about shapechanging into stuff that casted as an X is that they get the slots; but not the spell known >_> kinda wonky with monsters that cast as Clerics or druids but it might work.

And to be fair I know many DM's flat out ban access to Polymorph effects and the like or use the nerfed PF version. But you are right if you do this you must tread with caution.

Summoning/Binding.... pray your player's don't want to break your game (even more)?

[Runestar]

What DM allows a sorc who shapeshifted into a solar to get cleric20 spellcasting anyways? :smalleek:

[Coidzor]

I've always been fond of things like rakshasas and glouras and dryads so I like the idea myself. I can see how higher levels of play might find them to offer certain challenges, but most of the things that could take the forms in order to get access to the casting don't exactly need any help from acquiring other creatures' innate casting to break the game...

So it seems like it depends upon houserules and/or gentlemens' agreements anyway, I'd think. :smallconfused:

I'd feel ok about leaving some SLAs in place, though, possibly some of them along the lines of Warlock/DFA invocations with the greatly expanded durations (like something that's infiltratory that had an SLA for that purpose... I think Ogre Mages had something that let them keep up a masquerade using an at-will SLA?)

Certainly makes monster characters worth having less LA and scale better with lower starting RHD if one made a monster class out of them to take away at-will SLAs and OP SLAs...

[faceroll]

It's a great idea OP, I give the ogre mage 8th level sorcerer casting on top of everything else it gets, personally. Be aware that if the creature shows up on a summon creature list, it may be wise to revise what level you can now summon that creature at (or whether or not it comes with spells).


What DM allows a sorc who shapeshifted into a solar to get cleric20 spellcasting anyways? :smalleek:

Or an ethergaunt or chronotryn for wizard casting? Chronotryn is especially tasty, since you get double actions. The problem is with shapechange and summoning/calling effects, not making monsters tougher.

[Ernir]

I'd feel ok about leaving some SLAs in place, though, possibly some of them along the lines of Warlock/DFA invocations with the greatly expanded durations (like something that's infiltratory that had an SLA for that purpose... I think Ogre Mages had something that let them keep up a masquerade using an at-will SLA?)
It also makes sense when it t just has one or two (potentially high-level) SLAs (or Sus that work just like some spell), like Blink Dogs and Phase Spiders.

But when it's more separate SLAs than mid-level casters have spell slots? :smallannoyed:

[Runestar]

On a side note, I think it would be a cool idea to replace the SLAs of an ogre mage with say, warlock9 eldritch blast and invocations. Have it zip around while blasting with 5d6 EBs. :smallbiggrin:

[Andorax]

Ok, so the principle concerns are:

1) It makes the monster more powerful. Generally speaking, I'd say that it does in the form of more options, but it isn't a purely power-play manner of more powerful. It provides versitility, which is what I'm shooting for. Particularly in the case of a foe that the PCs will see multiple times, I'd like them to have some measure of adaptability that a set selection of SLAs doesn't permit.

2) It makes the players more powerful if they find a sneaky, back-handed way to summon, polymorph, or otherwise "get ahold of" these same capabilities for themselves. I guess I'm just not *blessed* with players that think like that, as this issue never occured to me...but the suggestion that you simply disallow the summoning/polymorphing into the modified version seems easy enough of a counter.



To those interested, the original Ogre Mage conversion was an attempt to spice up Arly the Weaver from Maure Castle (who's non-associated 8 Sorcerer levels in his original incarnation really wasn't doing the job).

Here's a couple more that I came up with, for which I'd welcome further input:

Noble Salamander:
Replace all but their Summon Monster VII spell-like abilities with:

Can cast spells as an 8th level Sorcerer.

Their signature, high-level ability (Summon Monster VII for a huge fire elemental) remains intact, cast as a 15th level sorcerer, as their single Spell Like Ability. There was really no other way to work it in in a balanced manner, and leaving it out changes the Noble Salamander too much.

Gains:

Instead of only being able to cast a specific 3/3/4/3 spells, the noble salamander can instead cast:

6/7/7/5/3 spells, with more variety of accessable spells (more lesser spells available, with more options).


Losses:

SLAs of the Salamander were at L15. This cuts the CL of the spell-like abilities down to only 8th, so they're much less powerful...that's the trade-off for greater flexibility.

Mitigate this by replacing Skill Focus (Blacksmithng) with Practiced Spellcaster, raising the CL to 12th (still giving up 3 CLs for greater variety).

Typical spell list for a Noble Salamander:

0: Resistance, Detect Magic, Dancing Lights, Flare, Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message
1: Burning Hands*, Alarm, Mage Armor, True Strike, Magic Weapon
2: Flaming Sphere*, Scorching Ray, Smoke Cloud (as Fog Cloud)
3: Fireball*, Dispel Magic*
4: Wall of Fire*

* This is one of his pre-existing spell-like abilities.


Commentary:

Most of this is cosmetic. In many combat situations, the only things that would change is the salamander's reduced ability to pierce SR and slightly less powerful damaging spells, mitigated somewhat by a single more-useful combat spell (Scorching Ray), defensive spell (Mage Armor), and tactical option (Smoke Cloud). A fight with a Noble Salamander could still just as easily degenerate into a summoned elemental, a ever-so-slightly less damaging Wall of Fire, still 10d6 fireballs thrown around, etc.

However, the one area in which this becomes a SIGNIFICANT change is allowing for further customization of the Salamander. Using this variant as a base opens up options like:

Trade Great Cleave for Searing Spell (Sandstorm). Now creatures with fire resistance are taking the full brunt of the fireballs (using 4th level slots).

Take Protection from Energy (Cold) in lieu of one of the other 2nd level choices...now cold isn't as killer of a tactic.

Trade Cleave in for Fire Bloodline (Dragon 311 Sorcerer article) for even greater variety of spell tactics.


And the biggest change of all: Advancement by Class. Sorcerer levels now become a VERY beneficial choice for advancing Noble Salamanders, instead of a very sub-optimal choice. They can now build on their own innate magical ability.

A Noble salamander Sor 2 (CR 12) with the above variants, with the ability to cast Dimension Door, Wall of Force and a smoke-filled Cloudkill into a divided battlefield becomes a much more interesting and potent opponent than a simple 19-HD noble salamander (same CR) with one extra feat.



Lamia:
Replace all spell-like abilities with:

Can cast spells as an 8th level Sorcerer (strongly favoring enchantment and illusion).

Gains:

6/7/6/5/3 spells: more variety of accessable spells (with more options).

Several 1/day abilities now accessible multiple times per day.

Losses:

SLAs of the Lamia were at L9. This cuts the CL of the spell-like abilities, but only slightly.

The Lamia is losing out on two at-will spells (disguise self and ventriloquism)...sorcerors get a lot of slots, but this is still a downgrade.

Due to having only 2 3rd level spells known, the Lamia is losing out on Deep Slumber. It should be the first 3rd level spell taken by any Lamia advancing by level as a Sorceror.


Typical spell list for a Lamia:

0: Touch of Fatigue, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Light, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message
1: Ventriloquism*, Disguise Self*, Sleep, Charm Person, Protection from Good
2: Mirror Image*, Touch of Idiocy, Invisibility
3: Major Image*, Suggestion*
4: Charm Monster*

* This is one of her pre-existing spell-like abilities.


Commentary:

There are some moderate tactical changes to the Lamia, but not overwhelming ones, from this variant. Other than losing Deep Slumber, most of the higher-end enchantments and illusions are usable about as much as they used to be. The formerly at-will abilities of Ventriloquism and Disguise Self ought to have sufficient uses left.

Adding in a couple of touch spells...Touch of Idiocy in particular, can make the existing Wisdom Drain ability of the Lamia even more fearsome. Invisiblity and Protection from Good add some new tactical options, and the additional option of Charm Person gives more room for extending her selection of charmed targets.

However, the one area in which this becomes a SIGNIFICANT change is allowing for further customization of the Lamia. Using this variant as a base opens up options like:

Mobility and Spring Attack could be traded in for Spell Focus (Illusion and Enchantment) to add a bit of a boost to the Lamia's spell abilities for a Lamia more focused on the 'casting' aspect of her racial abilities.

Face Changer and Touch of Distraction are Reserve feats (CM) that give back some of the at will ability that's been lost (though to qualify for Face Changer, she'd have to substitute Displacement for Major Image), while Unsettling Enchantment makes for an interesting boost.

An even more potent option would be to allow the Lamia to cast spells not as an 8th level Sorcerer, but as an 8th level Beguiler (PHBII). At the cost of only Ventriloquism, it gives a much broader list of spell options. This may be a bit imbalanced.


And the biggest change of all: Advancement by Class. Sorcerer levels (or Beguiler levels) now become a VERY beneficial choice for advancing Lamia instead of a very sub-optimal choice. They can now build on their own innate magical ability.

A Lamia Sor 2 (CR 8) with the Sorcerer variant gets Deep Slumber back, as well as a 4th and 5th level spell to play with. Confusion or Rainbow Pattern would make for additional 4th level options, and a Mind Fog or Nightmare 5th level spell adds a whole new dimension.

[Coidzor]

On a side note, I think it would be a cool idea to replace the SLAs of an ogre mage with say, warlock9 eldritch blast and invocations. Have it zip around while blasting with 5d6 EBs. :smallbiggrin:

Aye, DFAs and Warlocks also provide a nifty basis for this sort of thing without risking making things become OP or anything like that. Or require a boatload of balancing.


It also makes sense when it t just has one or two (potentially high-level) SLAs (or Sus that work just like some spell), like Blink Dogs and Phase Spiders.

But when it's more separate SLAs than mid-level casters have spell slots? :smallannoyed:

Indeed, certain fiends would make a lot more sense with casting rather than a bucketful of SLAs for instance.

Edit: Fire/Water/Air/Earth Shugenja seems like it might be interesting for the elemental creatures with that sorta thing.

[Andorax]

Found another one.

Justicator (MM3):
Replace all spell-like abilities with:

Can cast spells as a 9th level Cleric with the Law domain


Gains:

6/6/6/5/4/2 spells: more variety of accessable spells (with more options).

Several 1/day abilities now accessible multiple times per day.

Losses:

SLAs of the Justicator were at L10. This cuts the CL of the spell-like abilities, but only slightly. Law spells are still at full CL.

Justicator is losing out on two at-will spells...memorized spells can replace these, but this is still a downgrade. Full output of higher spells is also not quite repeated, but additional spells on other levels helps make up the difference.


Typical spell list for a Justicator:

0: Detect Chaos x3*, Light, Detect Magic x2
1: Protection from Chaos^, Bless x3*, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith
2: Calm Emotions^, Silence x3*, Cure Moderate Wounds, Resist Energy
3: Magic Circle vs Chaos^, Invisibility Purge x2*, Cure Serious Wounds x2*, Searing Light
4: Order's Wrath^, Dimensional Anchor x2*, Death Ward
5: Dispel Chaos*^, Greater Command*

* This is one of his pre-existing spell-like abilities.
^ Law domain spell



Commentary:

The biggest "loss" is the inability to do both Greater Command and Plane Shift on the same day. Slightly less healing ability (Cure Moderate for Cure Serious) also limits them, but a greater suite of power-up abilities allows them a bit more leeway in combat (Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Resist Energy, etc.)

This makes them slightly more tactical instead of recklessly charging in.


However, the one area in which this becomes a SIGNIFICANT change is allowing for further customization of the Justicator. Using this variant as a base opens up options like:

Practiced Spellcaster in lieu of Iron Will gives an even higher caster level than originally available.

Ranged Smite in lieu of Improved Initiative is an interesting option, especially paired with a ranged touch attack spell such as Searing Light.


And the biggest change of all: Advancement by Class. Cleric levels now become a VERY beneficial choice for advancing Justicator instead of a very sub-optimal choice. They can now build on their own innate magical ability, and open up the option of divine feats to channel their (comparatively weak) turning ability into.

A Justicator Cle 2 (CR 15) with the above variants gets a 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th (plus domain) spell. This restores the lost Plane Shift, shorted Dimensional Anchor and Cure Serious Wounds, and provides access to Hold Monster and another big 6th (Heal or Harm are equally likely candidates).