[3.5] Gish swashbuckler

[Bloodymango]

so im thinking about going swashbuclker 3 then branching off into an arcane class. after that going swiftblade 6 then abjurent champion. I was thinking wizard but that would take 6 levels for a total of 9 before i can enter swiftblade. my question is, is there a faster way to get to 3 lv spells with a int based caster.

[Amnestic]

swiftblade

I know it's not answering your question, but I feel obligated to plug The 20 Level Swiftblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192259) class.

[Seharvepernfan]

How quickly can you enter abjurant champion? Also, if you're going swiftblade 6, you may as well go for 9 which is when they get the best part of the class.

[Bloodymango]

the only thing i really want is 3 lv of swashbuckler for the insightful strike

[KingofMadCows]

You need 3 BAB, plus the feats and skills, to get into Swiftblade so with 3 levels of Swashbuckler, you only need 5 levels of Wizard.

[Andre]

How quickly can you enter abjurant champion?

As early as level 6... provided you respect the other requirements - a Swashbuckler/Wizard would be able to go Abjurant at level 8.

[Bloodymango]

also what book is swiftblade out of

[Amphetryon]

also what book is swiftblade out of

It's not. It was released on the web, then the author tweaked it after feedback from the CharOp community.

[Anderlith]

Duskblade is a great Gish, & uses Int for spells, so it will help your insightful strikes

[Bloodymango]

duskblades dont get haste so theres a problem

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The Swiftblade. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)

A note of Insightful Strike: considering that it eats three spellcasting levels to get, it is really not worth it, especially considering that the vast majority of Gish PrCs end up losing a spellcasting level somewhere. So you either jump around like bad trying to still reach 17th CL by 20th or you end up being way, way less caster, which hurts, because then all those great buff spells are yet another level behind.

Despite the Swiftblade losing 4 casting levels over its 10 level spread, it is easily worth it. General entry is Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9-10/Abjurant Champion 4-5. Basically, the build goes all the way through Swiftblade before you decide whether or not you want 9th level spells at 20th or if you want Time Stop one level early. I personally prefer all of Abjurant Champion, but that's just me.

[Bloodymango]

this is what i am currently thinking


1 swash dodge
2 wizard
3 wizard combat casting
4 swash
5 wizard
6 wizard mobility
7swash
8 wizard
9 abjurant champ arcane strike
10 abjurant champ
11 swiftblade
12 swiftblade combat exp
13 swiftblade
14 swiftblade
15 swiftblade power attack
16 swiftblade
17 abjurant champ
18 abjurant champ practiced spell casting
19 abjurant champ
20 swiftblade

[Thrice Dead Cat]

There is a way to get more casting (wizard or sorcerer) than levels.

The usual trick is to go Loredrake (Dragon variant that gives you +2 sorcerous casting, thus Sorcerer 1 casts as Sorcerer 3) Venerable (age) Dragonwrought (feat) Desert Kobold (UA, SRD racial variant) Battle Stalwart Sorcerer 1(two different variants, one from UA/SRD, the other Complete Mage).

Normally, those two sorcerer variants kill your casting via spells known and spells per level lost. However, at second level you go Wizard 1, specializing in whatever you want, really (preferably Conjuration or Transmutation). Then, you grab the Spellhoarding Dragon Psychosis (Dragon Magazine 313), which transforms all sorcerer casting into wizard casting. So, while your sorcerer casting is terribad, because of the Psychosis, it is now sweet, sweet wizard casting. You then grab the feat from Races of Dragon that gives you another free sorcerer spellcasting level (now wizard spellcasting level).

Thus, you go something like Sorcerer 4/Wizard 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion... with only one level lost of wizard casting.

[Bloodymango]

the thing is what about the early levels. there wont be a person to take the blows if i dont go swashbuckler.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

the thing is what about the early levels. there wont be a person to take the blows if i dont go swashbuckler.

Get more Constitution than sense. Level 1-2 is basically one hit to dead or dying.

[Optimator]

Would Arcane Duelist work?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could use Dragonwrought Kobold shenanigans, get Spellhoarding and Lordrake and the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and go Swashbuckler 3/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 3/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 4. That gets 17th level Wizard spellcasting and +19 BAB at level 20. However, you're better off going Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade 9/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Dragon slayer 1/ Spellsword 1, to get 20th level Wizard spellcasting and +19 BAB at 20.

With all the options a Gish has, Swashbuckler 3 is too much of a sacrifice for not enough benefit. You're looking at maybe +10 damage per hit for three levels of no spellcasting progression, in a class that doesn't even qualify you for a Spellsword dip. Just stick to combining (Draconic) Polymorph: War Troll, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Arcane Strike, (Persistent or Extended) Wraithstrike, and (Quickened or Circlet of Rapid Casting) Whirling Blade. Go with a build that gets better spellcasting and/or class features, such as Fighter 2*/ Wizard 4*/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 4. (*Possibly replace the first six levels with Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ Human or Elf Paragon 3.)

Arcane Duelist wouldn't be of any benefit, its abilities are Cha-based and Swashbuckler is for an Int-based gish.

The only viable Swashbuckler 3 Gish build was when the standard for viable gish builds was incredibly low, before most of the Completes were printed, when your best options were between Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, and Bladesinger. Back then a Wizard 10/ Dragonslayer 1/ Eldritch Knight 9 was considered a good build. It was included in a Gray Elf Swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 4/ Bladesinger build, which used the Martial Wizard variant in UA to get a Fighter feat instead of Scribe Scroll. Even then, a better build went Swashbuckler 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Bladesinger because it wasn't so tight on feats and had one more level of spellcasting relative to the Swashbuckler 3 build.

If the game you're playing in is extremely low-optimization, then a Swashbuckler 3 Gish will be able to make a decent contribution to the party. If the group you play with is generally good at optimization and typically plays strong characters then a Swashbuckler 3 Gish isn't going to be very successful. The overall strength of a build is ultimately relative to the strength of the rest of your party, in some games a Swashbuckler 3 Gish would be overwhelmingly strong, in other games it would be severely overshadowed by the Druid's animal companion.

[KingofMadCows]

You could go with 3 Swashbuckler/2 Beguiler/4 Unseen Seer/10 Swiftblade and one level of something else. There's really no point in not getting 10 levels of Swiftblade since you won't get level 9 spells anyway so you might as well get Innervated Speed.

Also, there is an epic feat called Combat Insight that lets you use your INT for damage.

[Amphetryon]

The only viable Swashbuckler 3 Gish build was when the standard for viable gish builds was incredibly low, before most of the Completes were printed, when your best options were between Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, and Bladesinger. Back then a Wizard 10/ Dragonslayer 1/ Eldritch Knight 9 was considered a good build. It was included in a Gray Elf Swashbuckler 3/ Wizard 4/ Bladesinger build, which used the Martial Wizard variant in UA to get a Fighter feat instead of Scribe Scroll. Even then, a better build went Swashbuckler 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Bladesinger because it wasn't so tight on feats and had one more level of spellcasting relative to the Swashbuckler 3 build.

If the game you're playing in is extremely low-optimization, then a Swashbuckler 3 Gish will be able to make a decent contribution to the party. If the group you play with is generally good at optimization and typically plays strong characters then a Swashbuckler 3 Gish isn't going to be very successful. The overall strength of a build is ultimately relative to the strength of the rest of your party, in some games a Swashbuckler 3 Gish would be overwhelmingly strong, in other games it would be severely overshadowed by the Druid's animal companion.
While I agree with this, could you clarify which iteration of Bladesinger you'd recommend? I seem to recall a 3.0 FR-specific one, as well as that fairly horrid thing they published in CW.