optimizing apostle of peace.

[Darth Stabber]

So ostensibly apostle of peace is a good version of Urpriest. In function the requirements of vow of non-violence and vow of peace really nerf it to near oblivion. However it still has 9s within 10 levels, and with vow of non-violence it does have massive save dcs on it's various means of neutralizing threats, and an aura that makes enemies unlikely to attack via vow of peace. My initial thought is wizard/focused specialist/AoP/mystic theurge, but I'm sure there is a stronger low level base for this.

[Zonugal]

I always thought some strong entrances were Incarnate or Ardent.

But I'm a big fan of combining it with beguiler with a dual caster-progression prestige class.

[Lateral]

Why would Vow of Nonviolence/Peace cripple it so badly? The cleric list has plenty of spells that don't violate the vow; utility casting and party buffing are pretty important, and it shouldn't be too bad in combination with nonlethal damage. Say, an Enlightened Fist build.

Wait a minute, it requires Vow of Poverty. Never mind; you should probably mention that in the OP, that's what kills it.

[Jack_Simth]

So ostensibly apostle of peace is a good version of Urpriest. In function the requirements of vow of non-violence and vow of peace really nerf it to near oblivion. However it still has 9s within 10 levels, and with vow of non-violence it does have massive save dcs on it's various means of neutralizing threats, and an aura that makes enemies unlikely to attack via vow of peace. My initial thought is wizard/focused specialist/AoP/mystic theurge, but I'm sure there is a stronger low level base for this.

Wizard and Apostle of Peace do not mix (spellbook vs. Vow of Poverty). There's ways around that, however (such as the edetic spellcaster Alternate Class Feature... possibly combined with the elven generalist substitution level, and the feat that doubles your spells per level... what was it called...).

But no, if you really want to go forward with the dual-9's, try Bard-7/Apostle-of-peace-3/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge (Apostle of Peace / Sublime Chord)-7/Arcane PrC of Choice-3 (possibly more Sublime Chord).

Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) even puts your Sublime Chord caster level to 20.

Note that Sublime Chord is from Complete Arcane.

[Zaq]

Hmmm. WIS-based casting with a fast progression . . . well, the stats don't work, but I'd actually love to see this on, like, a Rogue or other thiefly type. I think it'd be really interesting to have a stealthy and almost burglar-ish AoP. After all, if someone sneaking in somewhere has to resort to violence, they've probably done it wrong. I'm imagining the character breaking in to enemy bases to free hostages, sabotage evil plans, recover stolen goods (not for their own use, of course . . . VoPo, after all), and perform surprise diplomatic negotiations on the enemy leader. Imagine sneaking into an enemy general's room, waking them up with a Pacifying Touch (and an active Calm Emotions aura), and telling them that you really need to talk to them about this whole war thing.

Dammit, I want to play this character now. It's hard to imagine what kind of party they'd fit in, of course, but that would be awesome.

[Divide by Zero]

In function the requirements of vow of non-violence and vow of peace really nerf it to near oblivion.

I don't know about that. It may cause in-game problems, but if the campaign (and party) can handle non-violent solutions to most encounters, then it's probably Tier 2 at least. Vow of Poverty hurts, of course, but it's still a full caster.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

<snip> ...but it's still a full caster.

It does have a fairly limited spell list to choose from. There's good spells on it, but the list is not very versatile in my opinion: definately less than a (typical) full caster.

[Divide by Zero]

It does have a fairly limited spell list to choose from. There's good spells on it, but the list is not very versatile in my opinion: definately less than a (typical) full caster.

It's still solid though. A couple of game-breakers, lots of buffs, utility spells, a few good debuffs and BC, and most of the cleric's healing/de-debuffing options.

[Thefurmonger]

Wait a minute, it requires Vow of Poverty. Never mind; you should probably mention that in the OP, that's what kills it.

While thats true.....


As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the
use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect
them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor).

[Psyren]

The other major problem with Apostle of Peace is the low caster level. It lacks the Ur-Priest's "half your other caster levels count towards this class" line.

They get a little leeway with Vow of Poverty - they are allowed to use magic items "that protect them" as an exception to the rule. However, you're still not allowed a holy symbol by RAW. :smallsigh:

[Qwertystop]

I'd say they can get a symbol, as long as they only use it for self-defensive spells. Also, you can really stretch the definition of what counts as protecting yourself. If you can't use your magic to stop the continent from exploding, you will be in danger from said exploding continent. Therefore, you can have a holy symbol for that.

[Psyren]

I'd say they can get a symbol, as long as they only use it for self-defensive spells. Also, you can really stretch the definition of what counts as protecting yourself. If you can't use your magic to stop the continent from exploding, you will be in danger from said exploding continent. Therefore, you can have a holy symbol for that.

I'd be fine with that too, but the exception only applies to "magic items" - which holy symbols aren't.

[Qwertystop]

I'd be fine with that too, but the exception only applies to "magic items" - which holy symbols aren't.

Convince someone to cast a cheap spell on it. A holy symbol that's been prestidigitaioned to taste like pie is magic. So is one with Continual Flame or Light.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beguiler is a superb candidate for Vow of Peace/Nonviolence, since its offensive spells consist of illusions and enchantments which cause nondamaging status effects or nonlethal damage. You could combine it with AoP via Mystic Theurge, though I think skipping Vow of Poverty and going with a standard Beguiler 5/ PrC 1/ Beguiler 14 build would be a stronger choice.

[Psyren]

Convince someone to cast a cheap spell on it. A holy symbol that's been prestidigitaioned to taste like pie is magic. So is one with Continual Flame or Light.

Which raises the unfortunate situation that your spellcasting ability can be removed with a dispel.

[The Glyphstone]

Which raises the unfortunate situation that your spellcasting ability can be removed with a dispel.

Better than not casting at all, and you can always keep a spare inside your lead-lined shoe or something.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I always thought the mention in the Apostle of Peace entry of forsaking armor but using protective magic items was basically an editing error. Perhaps the person writing Apostle of Peace wasn't communicating fully with the folks writing the sacred vow feats? (not that the sacred vows are the best worded feats ever printed...)

The lesson any sane person should take from the Book of Exalted Deeds in general is to work things out with your DM, establish your own rules for vows (ideally that don't ruin the fun/flow of the game), and proceed from there.

RAW debates about semantics interest me less than simply seeing the Apostle of Peace in action. The class has always intrigued me, and I've played characters working their way towards it before, but they never reached high enough levels to actually become a proper apostle.

Really, assuming you got in at the earliest moment, you'd be getting 9th level spells at 16th level or so... to me, that's not really worth the investment, since one level later would net you 9th level casting for a wizard or cleric, and then you'd have a better selection and caster level. It's a flavorful class, but there's little it does you couldn't pull off (perhaps even better) with a Vow-laden cleric, archivist, (maybe bard) or druid, etc.

[Psyren]

Better than not casting at all, and you can always keep a spare inside your lead-lined shoe or something.

Taking your shoe off is at least a move action :smalltongue: (possibly more if you have to hop in place, and that'll probably provoke.)

I'm not saying there are no workarounds - just that the class was written very poorly.

[Hecuba]

Better than not casting at all, and you can always keep a spare inside your lead-lined shoe or something.

Or you can just use a reliquary holy symbol--that way dispel merely suppresses and you get some extra turn attempts to boot.

[Darth Stabber]

I bring this up because I am working on a series of epic NPCs that mess with my non-epic PCs. They have already have met the lvl50 dwarf demilich wiz(necromancer)/begiler/Ultimate magus/psion(nomad)/cerebramancer/binder/anima mage/incarnate(evil)/soulcaster. So I am working out a vanara x/y/apostle of peace/z as the next one they meet. As a note I am using the OA vanara, not the dragon mag one. I can easily work out an epic progression once I have a good lvl20 build.

[ImperatorK]

Bard 5/Rogue 2/Druid 3/Fochlucan Lyrist 10/Apostle 1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant 10, etc.

[Stallion]

The other major problem with Apostle of Peace is the low caster level. It lacks the Ur-Priest's "half your other caster levels count towards this class" line.



No it doesn't. It has that at the very bottom of the Spellcasting section of text, right before the Spontaneous Casting text.

[Psyren]

No it doesn't. It has that at the very bottom of the Spellcasting section of text, right before the Spontaneous Casting text.

I missed that :smallredface:

Carry on!

[Urpriest]

They get sanctified spells, which include the Channel Celestial line, and they get the planar ally line, so they can get the spells per day of a Planetar or the like if they plan things right.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

"As part of their sacred vows, apostles of peace forswear the
use of armor, though they may wear magic items that protect
them (such as a ring of protection or bracers of armor)."

With this line it allows the use of weapons with the defending property. As long as you have one point of the enchantment allocated to your armor it's considered to be an item that protects you. And if you slap the merciful property on it is can be used with the vows of peace and non-violence.