Would it be broken?

[SlashRunner]

Seeing the amount of flak the Monk gets on these boards (which is entirely deserved), I decided that, in future games, I should probably fix up the Monk. I'm aware that there are tons of Monk fixes floating around on the internet, but I dislike using other people's homebrew and I really just want to add a few things to the Monk to make them a bit better.
What I was thinking of was:
Full BAB
WIS to attack/damage, possibly DEX to attack
POSSIBLY at-will, short range teleportation (abrupt jaunt style)
POSSIBLY at-will flying (maybe have it so that they have to start/end their flight on a solid surface)
Something that mimics Up the Walls, minus the psionic focus part.

Pretty much, reduces the MADness and gives them great mobility. My question is: is this broken/underpowered?

[The Rabbler]

first: I wouldn't give them wis, dex, and str to attack. That's pretty MAD-inducing.

second: I would never give abrupt jaunt to a class. ever. I'd give the monk either a swift action or a move action teleport, but not an immediate action.

third: one of the main reasons that flight is useful is that it lets you fight flying things. If you have to be near enough to the ground that you can land at the end of your turn, you will have trouble fighting flying things. I'd go with slow, perfect flight and call it levitation.

finally: up the walls isn't particularly necessary if you can teleport and fly.

EDIT: overall, minus a couple of details, I like the changes. Also, you may want to mess with the skill list a bit and consider throwing some psionic progression into the class. Psywar's works pretty well.

[Newbieshoes]

Buddy of mine was running a game with some heavily modifed rules including:

Full BAB for monk. Wis to attack/damage for monk. Abundant step did not end your turn (like DD does) This combined with a homebrewed weapon (meteor hammer, 15 foot reach but can also hit 10/5ft squares) and the hungry ghost monk (pathfinder) did well as a battlefield control build even in my shoddily optimized hands.

[SlashRunner]

first: I wouldn't give them wis, dex, and str to attack. That's pretty MAD-inducing.

second: I would never give abrupt jaunt to a class. ever. I'd give the monk either a swift action or a move action teleport, but not an immediate action.

third: one of the main reasons that flight is useful is that it lets you fight flying things. If you have to be near enough to the ground that you can land at the end of your turn, you will have trouble fighting flying things. I'd go with slow, perfect flight and call it levitation.

finally: up the walls isn't particularly necessary if you can teleport and fly.

I didn't mean EXACTLY like Abrupt Jaunt. I just meant in the same vein as it. Obviously, I'm not making it an immediate action.
Secondly, if they want to get the maximum possible attack bonus, they can feel free to be MAD. By giving WIS to all three, you can just invest in that one stat and call it a day. Those other ones are just side options. That's the big difference. Whereas normal monk FORCES you to have WIS, DEX, and STR, here you can cover all bases with 1 of those stats and invest in the others as an option.
I see your point about flight, but I don't like the idea of the Monk just constantly flying. Maybe it would be better if I allowed it to be combined with Up the Walls so that the Monk can end their turn on a wall?

[The Rabbler]

I didn't mean EXACTLY like Abrupt Jaunt. I just meant in the same vein as it. Obviously, I'm not making it an immediate action.
Secondly, if they want to get the maximum possible attack bonus, they can feel free to be MAD. By giving WIS to all three, you can just invest in that one stat and call it a day. Those other ones are just side options. That's the big difference. Whereas normal monk FORCES you to have WIS, DEX, and STR, here you can cover all bases with 1 of those stats and invest in the others as an option.
I see your point about flight, but I don't like the idea of the Monk just constantly flying. Maybe it would be better if I allowed it to be combined with Up the Walls so that the Monk can end their turn on a wall?

I understand giving wis to attack, but I don't understand giving it to damage as well. Doing so would devalue strength even more in the eyes of a monk, who needs strength for all of those strength-based skill checks. Instead, I'd give dex to attack/damage in lieu of str and throw in something like boots of striding and springing's effect converting all str-based skill checks into dex-based skill checks. This makes str a dump stat for the monk.

I'd also cut wis out of the equation by switching the wis-to-ac to Int or giving carmendine monk as a bonus feat, to eliminate wis, and have it fluffed as the monk's combat training. Int is a much needed stat for monks who like using skills at all, so this would allow wis to also become a dump stat and the monk to acquire much more utility as a skill monkey.

just those two changes + full BAB would be enough to make the monk viable, but probably not as more than a 3-4 level dip depending on how you space it out. The flight/mini-teleport would be a great way to keep the monk viable until later levels. cut out the more useless abilities and you've got yourself a fixed class.

[Godskook]

first: I wouldn't give them wis, dex, and str to attack. That's pretty MAD-inducing.

Um, what?!?

See, there's good MAD and bad MAD. For instance, Swordsage has good MAD, cause he can get his choice of Str/Dex/Wis to attack roles(wants dex typically, but can do any), and gets Str/Dex/Wis to damage roles, and gets Dex/Wis to AC, while still wearing light armor. The reason this is so great is that he can afford to semi-dump most of these scores and have no pain, or fully dump them, and only feel it a little. And with point-buy, he can actually afford to spread his points out farther, cause he's benefiting from so many of the stats. The stats 10/16/14/10/14/9 are totally playable on a swordsage, despite his technical "MAD".

Where MAD becomes a problem is when you have different stats to each of several critical build modifers, such as on the standard monk, who needs Str for damage, Dex/Wis for AC(he *NEEDS* both due to no armor), Con for HP, and Int/Cha would be nice so he could have more and better skills. Its that no one ability score covers a significant portion of his goals, thus forcing him to spread his points thin to even have anything. To compare, a monk with 18 dex and 18 wis has 18 AC at level 4 and no damage bonus from either, while a comparable swordsage has at least a 22 AC(maybe more if he's got an enchanted or mithral armor), and he's adding *BOTH* to his damage rolls on strikes within his favorite discipline.

@OP, adding multiple stats to attack rolls is dangerous(especially with full BAB), but adding multiple ones to damage rolls, especially over time, won't unbalance a class.

[SlashRunner]

I'm not cutting WIS out of the equation, just because it's the iconic stat for the Monk. I suppose one could houserule that Combat Expertise also applies to unarmed attacks, which would save quite a bit of trouble.
So, assuming houseruled Combat Expertise, we have:
Full BAB
DEX+WIS to unarmed attack rolls
WIS+STR to unarmed damage rolls
At-will flight (possibly with some restrictions)
At-will teleportation (probably 10-20 feet) as a swift action
DEX instead of STR for STR-based checks.

[Darth_Versity]

The main problem with the monk is not their MAD (but that is pretty bad) but that their class features promote movement and also promote full attacking. The two abilities just cannot be used together and thus the class is a mess.

A simple feature that allowed the monk to move their land speed as a swift action would fix a huge chunk of the problems as they would cover an area most warrior types cannot. They can either hit and run without the need of spring attack (move action, single attack, swift action move) or they can avoid every other attack (swift move, full attack, next round full attack and swift move away)

This must be limited to land speed though. A monk with a fly speed that could swift move would find some strong ways to abuse it.

This also isn't compatible with Spring Attack as that requires an attack action and the player is doing a full attack, so you dont have a problem with a full attacking monk who is always out of reach.

Maybe even another class feature much later (around 17th lvl) that gives the monk two swift actions a round. This would actually give players a reason to stay in monk beyond getting swift move (which should be around 7th lvl)

[Vulaas]

I would augment their fast movement by either including pounce, or Travel Devotion usable per encounter rather than per day.

[The Rabbler]

you should change the HD to d20s.

[Vulaas]

you should change the HD to d20s.

And the TWF tree for free, nineth level spells, and and 6+int skills/level.

Just never a familiar. That would be broken.

[The Rabbler]

And the TWF tree for free, nineth level spells, and and 6+int skills/level.

Just never a familiar. That would be broken.

The class is balanced because of it's amazing quantity of flavor.

[Metahuman1]

Something else I'd do is I'd give it the following.

6+Int Skill points. Expand the skill list, considerably.

Int in place of Wis too AC, Too hit, Damage, and for fueling ability's like stunning fist. And Let it swap out Int for Wis on the Will save, kinda like how the Crusader does that with Cha.

Give it Spring attack at lvl 1 as a bonus feat.

Give it a class feature that allows it to full attack as a standard action in addition to an extra attack progression form flurry, and that it can use Spring attack and full attack in conjunction with each other.

Let Fast Movement stack with other sources of speed increase such as Fast movement from other classes and the Haste spell.

Give it full BAB, and the monk choose what his special monk weapons, if any, are going to be at lvl 1. Let him pick, let's say, 1+Int mod of weapons he get's his class features with.

Let him use things like Improved Grapple (Think UFC: Grab the guy and hit him while you have him in the hold.), Stunning fist (Think Boxing: Staggered the guy with a well placed Chin-check, then lay into him fast and hard before he can recover.), and Quivering palm (Think Touch of death: They guy is gonna do his very best to keep form getting tagged with that so you have to push the attack.) While Flurry and full attacking.

And now, the class is good as a fast and light High mobility skirmisher who's got some skills and supernaturals that make him hard too truly Nerf, can be optimized to be exceptionally powerful, nearly always has something to do, and yet won't outshine the whole rest of the party.

[SlashRunner]

Something else I'd do is I'd give it the following.

6+Int Skill points. Expand the skill list, considerably.

Int in place of Wis too AC, Too hit, Damage, and for fueling ability's like stunning fist. And Let it swap out Int for Wis on the Will save, kinda like how the Crusader does that with Cha.

Give it Spring attack at lvl 1 as a bonus feat.

Give it a class feature that allows it to full attack as a standard action in addition to an extra attack progression form flurry, and that it can use Spring attack and full attack in conjunction with each other.

Let Fast Movement stack with other sources of speed increase such as Fast movement from other classes and the Haste spell.

Give it full BAB, and the monk choose what his special monk weapons, if any, are going to be at lvl 1. Let him pick, let's say, 1+Int mod of weapons he get's his class features with.

Let him use things like Improved Grapple (Think UFC: Grab the guy and hit him while you have him in the hold.), Stunning fist (Think Boxing: Staggered the guy with a well placed Chin-check, then lay into him fast and hard before he can recover.), and Quivering palm (Think Touch of death: They guy is gonna do his very best to keep form getting tagged with that so you have to push the attack.) While Flurry and full attacking.

And now, the class is good as a fast and light High mobility skirmisher who's got some skills and supernaturals that make him hard too truly Nerf, can be optimized to be exceptionally powerful, nearly always has something to do, and yet won't outshine the whole rest of the party.

The full attack as standard action thing would probably make the Monk a ridiculously good dip for any martial class. Just look at the Barbarian with Pounce, and that's only with charging.


I'm not really aiming to make the monk perfectly balanced, just reduce the MAD and give it something special (lots of mobility). Hopefully, that should bump it up a tier. Also, I agree with the standard-action flurry, but I'm wondering: does that mean they can pretty much full-attack as a standard action? Or does that just add 1-2 attacks to their standard attack?