Lurkers . . . what's their deal?

[Zaq]

OK, conceptually, I know that lurkers are supposed to be the monsters who are harder to target for one reason or another, and many of them have some kind of ability that makes them relatively likely to get an ambush. I understand that. I have read the DMG.

In all seriousness, though, what's their deal? How are they really supposed to work, and how DO they work in comparison to their intended abilities? (Did that sentence make any sense at all?) Overall, it seems rather common for lurkers to have some trick that'll work once (usually in the first round of combat, probably as an ambush), then not really do anything special until they die. Some of them have enhanced stealth abilities (often, but not always, some kind of built-in invisibility), but just as many don't.

Take, for instance, as a literally random example (I flipped through the Monster Vault until I saw something with the Lurker keyword), the dryad, a level 5 lurker (MV pg. 91). It has a disguise ability that makes it look like a medium humanoid, so if the party doesn't have an Insight monkey, it has a good chance of getting a surprise round. Fine. After that . . . what's it do? It has a basic attack that just does damage, a ranged charm thing that seems very controller-y (pull 5, immobilize, restricts what the target can do, and it shares damage with the dryad), and a skirmisher-y teleport (that pulls its charmed victims with it). Aside from the initial disguise, what makes that not a skirmisher or a controller?

Another literally random example, this one a little higher level: the roper, level 10 (MV pg. 247). OK, it can (slowly) climb walls, it can grab things from far away, and it can pull those things very close to it while doing some damage. That's it. It has a +14 Stealth (not exactly godly at level 10, but respectable), so I guess it's supposed to hide and pretend to be a stalactite, then get in a surprise round. Again, that's fine, but after that, how is this lurker-y? It can't even move and hide itself . . . the best it can do is hang out on the walls or the ceiling and hope that nothing can get to it . . . which screams artillery to me, not lurker.

Certain lurkers I understand. If they have something that makes them invisible, fine. If they have something that makes them hard to target for reasons other than distance, fine. I'm not seeing that as being as common as it could be, though. What makes monsters like the dryad and the roper have the lurker tag? Is "likely to get a surprise round" really all there is to it? Does WotC not have a consistent definition of lurker, much like how they still don't have a really unified feel for what (the PC role) controller means? Or is there something that I'm missing?

[Epinephrine]

I don't know if there is anything specific. A few seem to have an every-second-round nasty attack type of thing happening (standard gargoyle, wraith) but mostly they get some bonuses when unseen or when they have CA, and some ways to avoid detection.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Lurkers (conceptually) make great assassins - sneaking into the party's back lines and periodically doing massive damage while being hard to hit. However, if you thwart their "cloak" or lock them down when they're between powers they can be easy to off.

IMHO, the MM Lurkers are pretty crappy at this job. However, I've had great luck custom-making Lurkers who fill this role. Ditto with Skirmishers - who are supposed to be elusive and more dangerous when they're on the move.

[Hidden Sanity]

Remember... the 'lurker' title and the like is more of a vauge catagory than it is a solid definition, Still as a DM, you can add terrain and the like to give the lurker it's real flair... Take the smaller black dragons, for example, the 'hide in the cloud' slug-fest is a boring way to use them... but if they have, say, an underwater tunnel to emerge elsewhere in their cavren while the PCs are busy thinking it's in the cloud, well, now the fights a lot more interesting.

[Mando Knight]

IMHO, the MM Lurkers are pretty crappy at this job. However, I've had great luck custom-making Lurkers who fill this role. Ditto with Skirmishers - who are supposed to be elusive and more dangerous when they're on the move.
Except for the MM1 Black Dragons, which are terrifying invisible war machines. MV Black Dragons are less invisible, but deal a lot more damage.

[Vknight]

Lurkers are the assassins. Skrimishers the Scouts. Soliders well soliders. Brutes the shocktroopers. Controllers the men keeping there allies in the best possible poisiton. Artillery are the archers etc.

Elites are stronger versions of each group
Leaders are the comanders and warlords
Solos are beings so strong they represent a batalion or even army

Many lurkers have this problem of not staying hidden but several also rely more on flanking and attacking from the rear. Which may seem more skrimisher the skrimisher is hitting one guy then moving to the other side of the battlefield.

Also monsters can have powers that overlap into other territiories.

Example:
My Custom Monster, 'Shade Infused'
They rely on staying hidden in darkness attacking what creatures holding the light and pulling them away from the group so the group cannot see.
There actually skrimisher because they rely on movement to carry prey and seperate the party so the melee characters can't flank and those without light are blinded. Though there tactics are controller and they fight like a lurker in the shadows they need movement over all so there a skrimisher.

For a Lurker example, 'Bleak Ooze'
Special made undead using oozes 'Bleak Ooze' help the above monster. They produce a constant aura of blackness which snuffs all light within 2squares of them. They knock targets that cannot see them prone. Gain 1d10 against creatures granting them combat advantage. Now they are a perfect example of lurker from that but there ranged attack and melee attack would make others think differntly. There melee pulls targets and slows with a secondary. There ranged blinds to alow the previous bonuses thanks to this some may get the impression of a controller with damage.

[Zaq]

Lurkers are the assassins. Skrimishers the Scouts. Soliders well soliders. Brutes the shocktroopers. Controllers the men keeping there allies in the best possible poisiton. Artillery are the archers etc.

Elites are stronger versions of each group
Leaders are the comanders and warlords
Solos are beings so strong they represent a batalion or even army
[/SPOILER]

Yes. This is what they're supposed to be. I understand this.

What I'm talking about is not what they're supposed to be. I'm talking about what they are. And frankly, I don't see anything that really sums up what a lurker does when I look at some actual examples of lurkers.

There are some monsters that I can look at and say "yes, I can definitely see why that is a lurker and not something else." But they, unfortunately, seem to be the minority. What I'm trying to come up with is a broader (while still accurate) definition of "lurker," or else just a consensus that WotC doesn't know what its own labels mean.

[Shatteredtower]

A lurker is very much a hit and run monster. They (and artillery) have fewer than normal hit points per level (6, where the norm is 8). They do not function well if terrain does not grant them one or more of the following features:

1) flexible options for selecting targets;
2) means of reaching targets quickly;
3) opportunity to withdrawal quickly, at little risk;
4) lots of places to hide; and
5) effective means of splitting a party's attention

Put a lurker in an open area with no distractions, as sometimes happens in WotC product, and the lurker is just a skirmisher with less mobility or a soldier with less AC and fewer attacking options. If it can't win quickly, it's meant to retreat any way it can, in effect putting it on the border between monster and trap for combat purposes.

Lurkers are all about timing, which means it's often best to avoid having them strike first in combat. Keep them under cover and out of sight as much as possible while maneuvering them toward the most vulnerable (exposed, weak, or injured--preferably all three) target you can find. If the result provokes a bit of panic in one or more party members, the monster's done its job--even if, as is often the case, it will be forced to flee the battle immediately after that. Don't worry if it can't get in more than one good swing before it has to leave the encounter; that still counts for the xp and it speeds up the encounter.

And if the lurker never gets its opportunity and simply avoids the fight? That can work too. Make it clear to the party that they were able to thwart something potentially dangerous in the process.

And don't be afraid to let the monster keep biding its time, looking for a better chance. Just make sure the better chance occasionally targets the party's opponents instead--or innocent bystanders.

[Fox Box Socks]

I would strongly recommend taking a look at the lurkes in the Monster Vault or Monster Manual 3. They are frighteningly effective at their jobs, make superb assassins, and do tons of burst damage when they leap from the shadows.

Should clear things right up for you.

[Garwain]

the border between monster and trap for combat purposes.
And don't use a lurker during the first phase of the combat, but wait until the party found their position to counter the thread ahead, and then throw in some extras from behind.

[kyoryu]

You can almost think of lurkers as anti-controllers. The party gets their formation the way they want it... and then the lurkers pop out, making their formation a very, very bad one.

Use them to disrupt the party's plans, not as pure damage.

[skywalker]

Remember... the 'lurker' title and the like is more of a vauge catagory than it is a solid definition, Still as a DM, you can add terrain and the like to give the lurker it's real flair... Take the smaller black dragons, for example, the 'hide in the cloud' slug-fest is a boring way to use them... but if they have, say, an underwater tunnel to emerge elsewhere in their cavren while the PCs are busy thinking it's in the cloud, well, now the fights a lot more interesting.

Someone played "Keep on the Borderlands..."

[TheAbstruseOne]

Lurkers are my favorite monster type. Soldiers are too complex to manage (especially if they mark) and Brutes are just big damage machine. But Lurkers are fun...you just never ever let them attack by themselves. I'm going to take the two specific Lurkers you pointed out and make them fun.

First, the Dryad Recluse (MV, p91). It's a forest-dweller, so put it in an encounter with some foresty type creatures, say some wild animals or maybe that Gnoll raiding party the group's tracking or some PO'd elves or whatever in a big forest setting. The Dryad takes the shape of a beautiful young elf girl, runs up to the party's elf/eladrin/halfelf and begs for help as the whatever is chasing her. Insight DC27 to see through the illusion (if they think to check) at Level 5 is going to require a Wis bonus + roll of 20 if trained with no feat/race support. So good luck with that, they buy the frightened elf girl.

So the party's Defenders race up to meet the bad guys while the Strikers run around and everyone gets in position for a round, while the Dryad hangs out next to the party's Leader and Ranged Striker. The Dryad uses Sylvan Charm against the Leader (immobilized and can't attack the Dryad), then uses Treestride to teleport 8 squares away (effectively removing the healer from the fight), then stands there and claws him to death with that "single at-will" since he can't attack back. Any ranged attacks from allies? Let the Leader take half the damage, then teleport further away. When the leader dies, the Dryad teleports back in, charms the Controller or Ranged Striker (whoever is causing the most harm) and repeats the whole process. It's a tactic that would easily turn a normally easy fight into a much harder one.

Next one you mentioned was the Roper (Impaling Roper, MV p 247). While the PCs are fighting the cave troll or whatever, the Roper's hanging out on the ceiling way back (around 10 squares). Tentacle on the Leader who is then grabbed. Next round, Impale yanks the Leader into the spike that is the Roper's head for a lot of damage and then the grab ends. Oh, remember what I said about being on the ceiling? Did I mention the ceiling in this cave is 50 feet high (10 squares)? Take 5d10 falling damage. So the Leader just took in two rounds 1d8+9d10+10 damage and is Prone (most leaders don't have Acrobatics) too far away to do any healing. Still alive? Tentacle so you can't get any closer to help your friends and then we do it all over again.

Oh, and it gets worse if you use terrain, like say the spot where the PCs are fighting the main force is 20 feet higher than the spot the Roper's hanging out over (2d10 more falling damage) or if the main force of monsters has special attacks that do more damage if the target is Grabbed or Immobilized. Also, that paltry +14 Stealth looks a lot better once you start adding circumstantial bonuses, say like the ceiling is outside the radius of the party's light source for Total Concealment bonuses as well as Cover bonuses from real stalactites.

Lurkers are best used from the back waiting for the right time to strike at the party's weaker members and especially Leaders (to cut off healing). If you wait until the second or third round of combat for the Lurker to pop out, you can usually turn the tide of the fight. What I've listed above are really evil DM ways to use these creatures, but that's what they are. They lurk in the shadows waiting for just the right time in just the right environment to strike where it's most advantageous to them. They typically isolate one party member from the rest and keep them out of the fight and, since they're usually at the back of the fight, it's much easier for them to get away. And if you think all the tactics above are cheesy to use as a DM, you can really get inside their heads if the Lurker they faced earlier got away by randomly asking "Oh, I almost forgot, what's your Passive Perception?"

[Epinephrine]

Next one you mentioned was the Roper (Impaling Roper, MV p 247). While the PCs are fighting the cave troll or whatever, the Roper's hanging out on the ceiling way back (around 10 squares). Tentacle on the Leader who is then grabbed. Next round, Impale yanks the Leader into the spike that is the Roper's head for a lot of damage and then the grab ends. Oh, remember what I said about being on the ceiling? Did I mention the ceiling in this cave is 50 feet high (10 squares)? Take 5d10 falling damage. So the Leader just took in two rounds 1d8+9d10+10 damage and is Prone (most leaders don't have Acrobatics) too far away to do any healing. Still alive? Tentacle so you can't get any closer to help your friends and then we do it all over again.

Don't think that works. You can't pull someone into the air.

Two-Dimensional: Forced movement is normally two-dimensional; all the squares of the movement must be on the same horizontal plane. Forced movement can become three-dimensional when the tar-get is flying, is moved through a substance such as water, or is on a non-horizontal surface, such as an incline, that supports it. This means an earthbound target cannot normally be pushed to a square in the air, but a hovering target can be. Similarly, a target can be pulled down a flight of stairs, and it can be slid in any direction underwater.

[Leolo]

This paragraph states that a target can only be moved vertically with force if the target square supports it. And i think a sustained grab pretty much fits to this description.

[TheAbstruseOne]

This paragraph states that a target can only be moved vertically with force if the target square supports it. And i think a sustained grab pretty much fits to this description.

Str 21 means 210 lbs is a normal load and 420 lbs is a heavy load, which means the Roper can lift the PC off the ground easily. But like a lot of 4e abstractions, logic doesn't necessarily enter the picture (which is what saves us from combat rules that require at least Calculus II to understand like 1st and 2nd Ed).

[Epinephrine]

This paragraph states that a target can only be moved vertically with force if the target square supports it. And i think a sustained grab pretty much fits to this description.

No, it says, "or is on a non-horizontal surface, such as an incline, that supports it."

If the PC is in the air, it is not on a surface. By RAW, it can't do that.

There are creatures that do what you suggest; I believe the Cave Fisher has a specific rule in its power that states that it can pull targets vertically and have them suspended in the air. Some other creatures that swoop down and grab enemies likewise have specific text allowing them to, one of the manticores does this, with a "prepare to drop" move that states that it can pull targets vertically with it. Obviously, if you are running the game it's your call, but you have to be prepared for the players to counter with arguments of their own allowing them to pull things vertically, etc. "After all, if my power can pull any size creature 8 squares horizontally (I pulled a titan with it once!), surely I can use it to pluck people off the ground when flying."

I'm also not sure whether (if you allowed a vertical pull) the player would get to ignore it by making a save and falling prone; it is very similar to being forced off a ledge, in that the first square of the pull moves you into a position from which you will fall. I don't have my rule books, but if you pull someone toward you over a pit they get a save to prevent the forced movement, it seems to me that you may also get one any time someone tries to pull you off the ground with an ability that allows this type of movement.

[Leolo]

If the PC is in the air, it is not on a surface. By RAW, it can't do that.


I think this is the main question. Is the character "in the air" when holding on some object or being hold on something?

I wouldn't say so, because he is clearly at a place where he does not have to fall. So i would define a "surface square" as some place that at least can hold you for this moment.

The bough you are climbing is a surface, even if it is not under your feet, same as the horse you are sitting on or the wall you are climbing or the broken floor that will crush soon.

[TheAbstruseOne]

Even if you go RAW over logic (again, not knocking RAW because the whole point is that it simplifies actions which can get to insane levels of complexity) and remove the falling damage, that's still 1d8 + 4d10 + 10 damage (average 36.5 damage) with the Leader now 10 squares away from the party. And the Roper can still keep pulling them back using the same loop until they're dead. Either way, it still ends up the same way: The Leader is taken out of the combat. Or the Controller or the Ranged Striker or whoever else has few HP but makes a huge impact on the battle. But the falling damage is just another trick and isn't critical to the Lurker's ability.

The point is a Lurker can effectively force the PCs to split their attention or lose a party member for at least several rounds. They can either stop dealing with the whatever they're fighting as the main bad guys and focus attacks on the Lurker, or they can let that rear party member (again, usually the sort of characters that have big impacts on a battle like the healer or blaster or someone capable of locking down enemies) fend for themselves.

[Boci]

Even if you go RAW over logic (again, not knocking RAW because the whole point is that it simplifies actions which can get to insane levels of complexity) and remove the falling damage, that's still 1d8 + 4d10 + 10 damage (average 36.5 damage) with the Leader now 10 squares away from the party. And the Roper can still keep pulling them back using the same loop until they're dead. Either way, it still ends up the same way: The Leader is taken out of the combat. Or the Controller or the Ranged Striker or whoever else has few HP but makes a huge impact on the battle. But the falling damage is just another trick and isn't critical to the Lurker's ability.

The point is a Lurker can effectively force the PCs to split their attention or lose a party member for at least several rounds. They can either stop dealing with the whatever they're fighting as the main bad guys and focus attacks on the Lurker, or they can let that rear party member (again, usually the sort of characters that have big impacts on a battle like the healer or blaster or someone capable of locking down enemies) fend for themselves.

How is this different to a controller hiding behind a boulder, waiting for a tactical time to strike?

[Leolo]

In fact it is not that much different, but monster roles and character roles overlap all the time, so this is no big surprise.

[TheAbstruseOne]

How is this different to a controller hiding behind a boulder, waiting for a tactical time to strike?

Tone and style pretty much. There's some minor crunch differences (different defenses, different HP, different attributes, higher Stealth, etc.). Basically a Controller's job is to slide/Immobilize/Stun/etc. enemies while standing behind bigger, beefier allies. A Lurker's job is to sneak up behind and take someone out.

Honestly, if you don't like Lurkers, don't use them. Or adjust them until you do like them. Personally, they're some of my favorite monsters because they feel more for lack of a better word "old school". They let you do creative things like I posted above that make the combat different than just grinding down a bunch of monsters and avoiding a couple of traps. They help vary things up and be more interesting. But that fits my gaming style. If it's not yours...well frankly, that's what's great about RPGs because it's all about the DM's game style mixing with the player's style and creating something completely interactive and personal to that specific group.

[randomhero00]

No offense, but it may be your DMs. My DM when I played 4e never had any problems using lurkers to deadly results. Often they were one of the most feared. But he was extremely good at strategy. It didnt matter what he controlled, he could always use them well. In fact I wanted to complain that he played most enemies way too intelligently.