So, what do rogues do? (very newbish)

[SKarious]

Hey, all.
I'm a totally new player to RPGs in general and D&D specifically.
I'm joining a group of D&D 3.5 edition and since the party is missing a rogue to deal with traps, I'll have to play one.
But, I want to be a bit more than a walking trap-detector/lockpick. So, what else are rogues good at? What skills/feats should I focus on?
I'd appreciate general tips and playstyles more than pure mechanics cheese, since we aren't using any sourcebooks other than the basics, and there are some homebrewed elements.

A bit of info on setting & PCs

System is a sort of homebrewed D&D 3.5 ed.
Setting is a sort of human-dominated low-magic fantasy. (kind of like Game of Thrones) Magic is very uncommon and, except for one PC, practically unheard of. especially arcane magic. Though we did run into kobolds, some zombies that were tough and very hard to kill, and there are hints of demons.
Optimization level of party: probably not much at all. (other than the druid)

PCs
- Druid: DM's wife. A good gamer with lots of exp. mainly using hidden utility spells and buffs. And dropping hurricanes, ceilings & entangles on "bosses" to finish them when we aren't looking. Also, good perception/spot checks, healing, some nature knowledge skills. Party leader.
- Ranger 1. "sniper" type. not much to say about him. good dex and nice damage, when he doesn't fumble and hit party members.
- Ranger 2. DMPC. "dual-wielder" type. used for tracking and moving the plot along. as well as some nice damage.
- Barbarian. Big, dumb, charismatic. used as a battering ram, tank, and walking, charging inventory.


So, what can a rogue add to such a party? How can I help the most? What should I focus on?

Thanks in advance.

[ragingrage]

Well, one thing you can do is be the skillmonkey. You have a lot of skill points, and a lot of skills available. Get your fingers into all of them.

[Urpriest]

Combatwise, it's often good for rogues to pursue two-weapon fighting. You'll probably want Weapon Finesse as soon as you can (probably 3rd level) in order to get the most out of what is probably a high Dex score. Then investing in the Two-Weapon Fighting feats (at least the first one) will let you get more attacks with which to deal your sneak attack damage.

[Flickerdart]

Rogues can churn out some tremendous damage - take a look at the Penetrating Strike ACF (trade out Trap Sense for 1/2 SA against immune creatures), the Craven feat (add your level to your SA damage) and anything you can get your hands on that lets you make more attacks - Snap Kick (Tome of Battle), the Two-Weapon Fighting line...

[Lord Ruby34]

Another decent route is archery, rapid shot is your friend. Remember that if you go first your enemy is considered flat-footed. Only for the first round, but still.

[SKarious]

Well, one thing you can do is be the skillmonkey. You have a lot of skill points, and a lot of skills available. Get your fingers into all of them.

Yes, I've often heard rogues called that. what sort of skills are good to have? other than stealth/thievery?

Knowledge? healing? trap-making?

also, DM hinted the party can do enough damage already, so I should probably be focusing on something else.

[Reluctance]

In combat, rogues love flanking with a friend to get boatloads of sneak attack dice. If you want to invest feats into this, two weapon fighting can give you an extra attack so you can roll even more d6. Of course, that depends on your other meleers playing nice. Tumble is nice for assisting this.

Out of combat, the rogue has a wide skill list for a reason. UMD is nice in a normal campaign, but it's of questionable utility here. (Zombies early-game in a "low-magic" campaign hint that there'll be a good deal of magic, just on the enemy side. UMD will help if the DM likes giving you guys impressive magic items to match, it'll be useless if he ignores WBL and lets all the magic remain in enemy hands.) Social skills are always handy in intrigue-based campaigns, unless people prefer the "just role-play it" argument. Stealth and sensory skills make for a nice scout, depending if either of the rangers picked up the role. Really, Search/Disable Device/Open Lock are just three out of the 8+Int modifier (+1 because you're probably human) skill points you have. Use the rest to specialize in whatever you feel like.

[Flickerdart]

Another decent route is archery, rapid shot is your friend. Remember that if you go first your enemy is considered flat-footed. Only for the first round, but still.
Archery needs too many feats to be made worthwhile, and the 30ft range restriction sucks a lot. Throwing weapons, however, can be absurdly powerful with a Rogue.


Yes, I've often heard rogues called that. what sort of skills are good to have? other than stealth/thievery?

Knowledge? healing? trap-making?

also, DM hinted the party can do enough damage already, so I should probably be focusing on something else.
Knowledge skills are always useful, but only the ones that identify creatures. Put some ranks into Use Magic Device so that you can sling around a few wands of this and that.

Oh, and the feat Darkstalker is absolutely vital, as it makes you immune to most enhanced vision modes such as blindsight. Enemies without mindsight will always need to roll spot/listen to notice you.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yes, I've often heard rogues called that. what sort of skills are good to have? other than stealth/thievery?

Knowledge? healing? trap-making?

also, DM hinted the party can do enough damage already, so I should probably be focusing on something else.

Healing is for the people who have the heal spells, knowledge is for the wizard or bard (bard because, well, bard, and wizard becaue of divinations). Trap-making and disabling, stealth, assassination (don't take levels in that PrC), opening locks (though the wizard and the guy who has the adamantine weapon will take care of this), scouting, and all that are what a rogue does.

[Lord Ruby34]

Rogues can churn out some tremendous damage - take a look at the Penetrating Strike ACF (trade out Trap Sense for 1/2 SA against immune creatures), the Craven feat (add your level to your SA damage) and anything you can get your hands on that lets you make more attacks - Snap Kick (Tome of Battle), the Two-Weapon Fighting line...

I believe the opening post said it was just the basics with probably means PHB.


Yes, I've often heard rogues called that. what sort of skills are good to have? other than stealth/thievery?

Knowledge? healing? trap-making?

also, DM hinted the party can do enough damage already, so I should probably be focusing on something else.

The best part is that you can do both damage and skill-monkeying. Invest into spot, hide, move silently, listen, disable device, open lock, and search and you should be set as far as skills go. With a higher Intelligence you can also invest in the social skills.

[Urpriest]

Tumble is a very useful skill, if primarily in combat. It helps you get where you want to go, essentially.

[NeoSeraphi]

Since you're new, I'm going to go ahead and be specific: UMD = Use Magic Device, and it allows you to use wands and scrolls to cast spells you normally couldn't cast.

Balance is useful (if you have 5 ranks in it, you can Balance without being Flat-footed), Open Lock is always useful, Tumble allows you to move away from your enemies without them attacking you on your way out, Disable Device and Search allows you to find traps, Forgery allows you to...Forge (and no core class other than Rogue has this as a class skill. A Forgery check is opposed by Forgery checks, so the city guard you're trying to fool is basically making an Int check versus your Level+3+Int. Even just 5 ranks would probably guarantee you making it your entire career with high enough Int). Hide and Move Silently are obvious, and Use Rope can be useful in the right situations. Escape Artist allows you to break free of Grapple checks, as well as non-magical bindings, which is useful for thieves.

[Lord Ruby34]

Slight of hand is also useful if you want to conceal something, like say dropping poison in someone's wine glass. You can also PrC into assassin for some extra combat ability at the loss of skill points. It's not very helpful for you but it's often fun to take.

You could also take Craft: Poisonmaking to make your own poisons, and with a one level dip into assassin you can apply them to your weapon without risking yourself. That one level dip will also give you an extra sneak attack dice, and some minor casting ability if you have a high enough INT score.

[Zaq]

It doesn't look like you have a talky guy yet. (You said the the Barbarian is charismatic, but they don't get the skills you really want.) Having some good social skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate if you're into that sort of thing, Gather Info if your GM likes it . . . with Sense Motive and Forgery as useful afterthoughts) can save your party a lot of grief. You don't always need to keep them maxed out, but it's nice to have them.

[herrhauptmann]

If you're looking to optimize, look for the thread: Fistful of d6.

If you go two weapon, make sure that you hit by enchanting your weapons as high as possible with basic enchantments to hit/damage. So a +2 sword is far better than a +1 Flaming sword, even though they cost the same, and the flaming actually does slightly more damage on average.
Reason being, you need to ensure you hit as often as possible, and as a two weapon rogue, you're going to be taking penalties to hit.

Good skills:
I hope you have a high int bonus. Use Magic Device, search/spot/listen, the interaction skills of diplomacy/sense motive/bluff, movement skills: climb/swim/tumble/balance.
Know your synergies. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillSynergy
If complete scoundrel is allowed, work to some of the skill tricks. I'm always a fan of the free stand up ones.
You don't have to be able to do everything on your own, but there are times when everyone's going to be relying on you. So in the words of the dark one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html): "Don't screw this up. No pressure though."
If Factotum (from dungeonscape) were allowed, and the DM already says that the party damage output is good enough, I'd say go factotum. Also grants you a modicum of arcane power.

[Flickerdart]

See if your DM will allow one of the alternative trapmonkey classes. Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) is nice for that because it's online, and the powers it gets let you be more than just the minesweeper.

[Veyr]

A lot of classes have Trapfinding, not just Rogues. Artificers are by-far the most powerful of the lot, though they're pretty hard to play (I don't recommend it as your first character!). Lots of 'em are fun though; Spellthieves are another that I don't think has been been mentioned?

[Frozen_Feet]

PCs
- Druid: DM's wife. A good gamer with lots of exp. mainly using hidden utility spells and buffs. And dropping hurricanes, ceilings & entangles on "bosses" to finish them when we aren't looking. Also, good perception/spot checks, healing, some nature knowledge skills. Party leader.
- Ranger 1. "sniper" type. not much to say about him. good dex and nice damage, when he doesn't fumble and hit party members.
- Ranger 2. DMPC. "dual-wielder" type. used for tracking and moving the plot along. as well as some nice damage.
- Barbarian. Big, dumb, charismatic. used as a battering ram, tank, and walking, charging inventory.
[/SPOILER]

So, what can a rogue add to such a party? How can I help the most? What should I focus on?

Thanks in advance.

With the large skillset of Rogue, you can do a lot, actually.

If you want to be a traditional thief type, use your skillpoints of Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Spot and Search.

If you want to emphasize scouting, swap Forgery for Listen.

You could be a socialite, with Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Knowledge (Nobility) and Gather Information.

Or tinkerer magician with UMD and Sleight of Hand.

In combat, focus on situations where you benefit from Sneak Attack. Get lots of attacks either via archery or two-weapon fighting.

[Greenish]

A lot of classes have Trapfinding, not just Rogues.Artificers, clerics (with kobold domain*), scouts, factotums, savants, ninjas, beguilers, spellthieves, going outside core there're plenty of trapfinders. In core, not so many.


*Or anyone with the domain power from the touchstone feat.

[Mando Knight]

If you want to emphasize scouting, swap Forgery for Listen.

I dunno... Forgery is countered by Forgery, so even if you're mostly a scout, having a skill that few others take or can nullify can be fairly amusing.

[Yora]

Rogues can make one easy sneak attack when they are the first who acts in a fight, as enemies aren't yet actively defending. This makes Improved Initiative a very good choice for Rogues and combined with the high Dexterity all rogues have can get you an initiative modifier of +7 or +8 right at first level when most people still have just +1 or +2. If you make an ambush and get a suprise round, it's even possible to mae two Sneak Attacks and with some luck eliminate two enemies before they had any chance to act. That can make a big impact on a fight.

[Endarire]

Rogues are the precursors to Factotums (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0). Factotums have less Sneak Attack, but rely on Wizard spells and Cunning Surge (Factotum8) to do spiffy things.

Factotums are very versatile, more versatile than a typical Rogue! Ask your GM about Factotums before playing. You need access to Dungeonscape, the book containing Factotums, for the Factotum class stats.

Artificers are NOT for beginners! They require lots of research and system mastery to work well!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Artificers, clerics (with kobold domain*), scouts, factotums, savants, ninjas, beguilers, spellthieves, going outside core there're plenty of trapfinders. In core, not so many.


*Or anyone with the domain power from the touchstone feat.

Never play ninjas or spellthieves. The only exception is if your DM throws a lot of caster foes at you, then you can play a spellthief. Never play ninjas!

[McStabbington]

First of all, welcome to the board, to D&D, and to joining the skill monkey brigade. By the time you're finished with your rogue, you'll never want to take a class with less and 4 + Int skill points per level again.

So what do rogues do? Well, the best way to answer that is actually to say what they can't do, because the rogue is actually one of, if not the, most flexible class you've got. Only the bard and druid compare for raw flexibility in the PHB, and each of them has drawbacks that you don't. So what can't you do in combat? Primarily, you can't take hits. Secondarily, you can't stand up very well if someone decides to do something like poison you or dominate you. So you have to build your strategy around either a) getting the first hit in and making your first hit count so well you don't need to hit again, or b) making other people the focus of attention.

So how do you accomplish this in combat? Well, the primary way is through your feat selection, but also through careful use of multi-classing. What your aim should be is to balance maxing out the number of attacks you've got with the accuracy of each shot. Weapon finesse and weapon focus are both feats you can take fairly early on that will drastically improve your hit rate, one by substituting your strength (which for a rogue is actually the closest thing you have to a dump stat) for dexterity (which is your primary stat) in determining your ability modifier, and the other by adding a straight +1 to hit with a certain type of weapon. Even better, weapon finesse works with any light weapon, so it will automatically apply to your off-hand if you use something light. The only bad thing is that both require you to have a +1 to hit, so you have to wait until 3rd level to use either feat.

As far as maxing damage goes, there are several ways to do it. The easiest and most obvious is to start using two-weapon fighting. With a short sword in both hands, you can do respectable damage from very early on, and by sixth level, you can select 1) Two-Weapon Fighting (only prereq is 15 Dex, which you'll almost by definition have to have anyway), 3) Weapon Finesse, and 6) Weapon Focus: Short Sword, which will give you very good accuracy despite the -2 to each of your hits that comes from having a weapon in the off-hand. As you level up, you'll want to increase the number of shots you deliver and the likelihood that you attack first, since your sneak attack only applies if you hit a target that is flat-footed or whom you are behind.

A lesser used, but still potent way of doing your damage is through archery. By selecting Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and Precise Shot as your first three feats, you can effectively match your damage with two short swords but from up to 30 feet away. And since archery already uses Dexterity as its ability modifier, you don't need to wait for the 3rd level feat powerup. Even better, if you are an elf (which I would recommend, as it is one of two races in the PHB with natural buffs to dexterity), there are prestige classes available down the road like Arcane Archer that can give you some impressive buffs to your archery ability.

Effective multi-classing depends greatly on your long-term plan, the race you choose, and what your feel of the character should be. Swashbuckler makes for an excellent combination with rogue, since it's a Dex-heavy class that offers Weapon Finesse for free and gives a special ability that adds your intelligence modifier (which, as we will see below, should be your second best modifier). There is also a feat, Daring Outlaw, that allows your levels of swashbuckler and rogue to stack for the purposes of determining sneak attack damage. Swashbuckler/rogues tend therefore to be very accurate and have a lot of sneak attack damage. For archery, fighter or ranger can be effective for similar reasons: fighter isn't the best class, but by fourth level a fighter has huge numbers of feats, which will allow you to take multiple styles (two weapon and archery) or pack on the dps in archery by adding in Weapon focus and weapon specialization. Ranger is a better fit, although it sounds as if your party already has enough rangers.

Now, what about out of combat? Well, out combat is really a question of "what do you want to do?", since the rogue can pretty much do anything. As I said above, intelligence should be your second-best skill, because intelligence allows you more skill points to do more things. One should always have reasonably sharp sneaking and trouble-resolution skills, because that's why they picked you the rogue for the party rather than another lumbering fighter or a twit of a wizard or sorceror. So reasonably high spot, listen, hide, move silently, open lock and disable device are a simple must. But after that, what do you like doing? It sounds, for instance, as if your party could use a face: the guy who actually does the talking in town. So you could, assuming your charisma is high enough, add some points to diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and intimidate to make any social interaction a snap. Or, you could focus more on being a sneaky bastard. Use magic device, escape artist, forgery and sleight of hand each allow you to get into, and more importantly out of, trouble in a jiffy. Or you could focus on being a supporting player for your other guys. Jump, tumble, balance, use rope and climb each allow you to get up somewhere you weren't supposed to be and let the rest of the party get there as well.

The rogue is not a front-line fighter, so don't treat him like one. If the only option you have is to kick in the door, then you let the druid and the barbarian go in first, and you just help them out or support as needed. For all your individual abilities, it's critical to realize that a well-played rogue is really the ultimate force multiplier for a team. He gets the goods, either by silver tongue or sticky fingers, that the other members need to do their jobs, he gets into and out of situations no one else can, and he helps his big warriors take their foes down quickly by flanking and backstabbing them. Play to help your teammates, and you'll never want for appreciation or good times. Again, welcome to the skill monkey family.

[herrhauptmann]

Good stuff

Something not mentioned, occasionally you're going to find yourself fighting something crit immune that is a very tough fight. Oozes, plants, undead, elementals to name a few.
Now there's things that allow you to sneak attack them, but you might not have access to those rule books.
So a very simple thing you can do to help the party, rather than sit there and try to hit the thing for 1d6+str, instead try and use the Aid Another action for your party melee fighters.
In addition to providing flanking (granted some SA immune creatures can't be flanked), you can provide a +2 To Hit for one of your allies, or a -2 to Hit when the creature attacks your allies. This is also useful for a high AC enemy. If the party beatstick can only hit when he rolls a 17-20 on the dice, he'll really appreciate you giving him a +4 to hit (flank + aid another).

[Fisticuffs]

we aren't using any sourcebooks other than the basics, and there are some homebrewed elements.

It really depends on what level you're starting and how long this campaign is going. Like already stated Improved Initiative, Two-Weapon Fighting and, Weapon Finesse are your friends. Don't take Dodge or any feat that give points to skills, they're traps.

[Serpentine]

I'm always quite fond of the skillmonkey Rogue who creatively applies his skillfullness in combat - swinging from the chandaliers, climbing giants to stab them in the neck, lassoeing a dragon's wing, that sort of thing. You'll want to check that you DM is willing to work with you on that, though, and reward cleverness.
For this sort of Rogue, you'd particularly want things like Jump, Balance, Tumble, maybe Bluff, Climb, perhaps Disable Device ("I unscrew the chandalier!"), Escape Artist, maybe Use Rope. If you're a thinker you should be able to find a use for just about anything, though. If you can get a hold of them, Skill Tricks would be very useful to have (I think the main source for them is Complete Adventurer?) - at least they might be worth reading over to get ideas for what you can do, if your DM's willing to just wave it through with a skill check. Items that let you move everywhere (Spiderclimb or Fly, for example) would be very handy. If you can't get any of the good Skill feats cuz they're in splat books, I would guess combat mobility stuff would be a good start for feats (I'm not an optimiser and don't know the books inside-out, though, so don't take my word for it).

Off the top of my head, Rogue archetypes include Sneaky (Hide/Move Silently), Backstabby (Sneak Attack-focused), Thuggish (combat-focused), Contraptiony (Disable Divice, Open Lock, UMD), Acrobatic (as above), Social (Diplomacy/Intimidate, Bluff, Sense Motive) annnnnd... many others, I'm sure. As mentioned, Rogues are flexible enough and have enough resources that it should be easy to do more than one of these archetypes.
What sort of character do you want to play?

[herrhauptmann]

If complete scoundrel is allowed, work to some of the skill tricks. I'm always a fan of the free stand up ones.


If you can get a hold of them, Skill Tricks would be very useful to have (I think the main source for them is Complete Adventurer?) -
Already stated.

However, the problem with being theatric mid-fight, is that you'll be spending a turn or more to flip around. Entertaining, unless the party is getting the floor wiped with their bodies because you're essentially absent for half the fight. Also, you can't get a full attack off if you've also moved in that turn (without belt of battle MIC). That's where your damage comes out, and why so many warriors seek ways to gain Pounce.

All that said, if the DM rewards you doing that stuff, then by all means, do it. It'll make for a better story when you're talking about it later.
If the DM doesn't reward you, skip it on the tough fights.

[Divide by Zero]

Really, if you want to be excessively theatric, then you might be better off with another system (Exalted immediately comes to mind). D&D just doesn't support that very well.

[begooler]

Yes, I've often heard rogues called that. what sort of skills are good to have? other than stealth/thievery?

Knowledge? healing? trap-making?

also, DM hinted the party can do enough damage already, so I should probably be focusing on something else.


Use Magic Device, as mentioned before allows you to use magic items- like scrolls, wands and the like- that you would otherwise have to meet qualifications to use. (Normally, to cast a spell from a wand or scroll, you have to be the class that has that spell on their spell list, like a wizard for a wizard spell, or a cleric for a cleric spell. With UMD, you make a skill check, and then use any item you want.) Rogues are unique, because they are one of the few classes that have UMD as a class skill, and lots of skill points to put in it.

So, put points in Use Magic Device. Great. Now you need some wands and scrolls and stuff.

Put some points in Gather Information. Now you know where to buy wands and scrolls and stuff.

Put some points in Diplomacy. Now you can convince people to sell you wands and scrolls and stuff for cheap.

Put points Sleight of Hand. Now you can steal more wands and scrolls and stuff.

Put points in Bluff. Now you can get away with stealing wands and scrolls and stuff.

Congratulations, now you're a wizard!

[Divide by Zero]

Setting is a sort of human-dominated low-magic fantasy. (kind of like Game of Thrones) Magic is very uncommon and, except for one PC, practically unheard of. especially arcane magic.

Based on this, I don't think UMD is the best route to take.

[SKarious]

Wow, so much good advice there.
Thanks a lot you fellas. Now I'm going to sit with my DM and make some good adjustments :smallwink:

[Veyr]

System is a sort of homebrewed D&D 3.5 ed.
Setting is a sort of human-dominated low-magic fantasy. (kind of like Game of Thrones) Magic is very uncommon and, except for one PC, practically unheard of. especially arcane magic.
Frankly, just as a warning: this has a very good chance of turning out very ugly. 3.5 is a terrible system for low-magic fantasy a la Game of Thrones. There are much better systems for it, and IMO, your DM should have found one he liked before embarking on this campaign, but I suppose it's too late to cry over spilt milk.

Since you're new, I bring this up just because your experiences are not going to match what 3.5 is like normally. If your DM is very skilled, it may be an excellent campaign and a great time, but what he's trying to do here is very difficult, and a lot of people underestimate it, and when done poorly it can turn out very badly. Even if he pulls it off, it'll be very different from 3.5 in general.

Luckily, as a Rogue, you won't be bearing the worst of this (...sort of. The mundane fighting-types are getting royally screwed, barring some very extreme houserules). UMD becomes less useful, which is a shame because it's fun (but ranks in it should still be useful because, let's face it, it'll be awesome to activate that one rare artifact you find), but your other skills should become more useful, so that's good.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Frankly, just as a warning: this has a very good chance of turning out very ugly. 3.5 is a terrible system for low-magic fantasy a la Game of Thrones. There are much better systems for it, and IMO, your DM should have found one he liked before embarking on this campaign, but I suppose it's too late to cry over spilt milk.

Since you're new, I bring this up just because your experiences are not going to match what 3.5 is like normally. If your DM is very skilled, it may be an excellent campaign and a great time, but what he's trying to do here is very difficult, and a lot of people underestimate it, and when done poorly it can turn out very badly. Even if he pulls it off, it'll be very different from 3.5 in general.

Luckily, as a Rogue, you won't be bearing the worst of this (...sort of. The mundane fighting-types are getting royally screwed, barring some very extreme houserules). UMD becomes less useful, which is a shame because it's fun (but ranks in it should still be useful because, let's face it, it'll be awesome to activate that one rare artifact you find), but your other skills should become more useful, so that's good.

Low magic is hard to pull off, especially when he's allowing a full caster in the party.

[Curmudgeon]

Combatwise, it's often good for rogues to pursue two-weapon fighting.

Rogues can make one easy sneak attack when they are the first who acts in a fight, as enemies aren't yet actively defending. This makes Improved Initiative a very good choice for Rogues
I'd like to interject my 2 copper pieces worth here and say that I think these are poor choices. Feats are very precious to Rogues, and the return for both is much worse than for other feats.

Two-Weapon Fighting provides no benefit unless you're making a full attack, so that feat is worthless in the surprise round, when you're going to have flat-footed foes to attack (assuming you've maximized Spot and maybe Listen so you're not surprised). It's also useless for missile attacks with the Rogue's best ranged weapon (composite shortbow, or composite longbow if Elf). Full melee attacks leave you vulnerable to full counterattacks, which you will have neither the armor class nor hit points to readily survive. Compare Two-Weapon Fighting instead to Snap Kick (Tome of Battle), which has the same (-2) penalty but provides an extra unarmed attack whenever you make a:

full attack,
standard action attack,
attack of opportunity, or
bonus attack (such as from Improved Trip).
That's much better, right?

Next, let's look at the benefit from Improved Initiative. Good DEX means you'll have a better initiative modifier than many other characters anyway. So in the surprise round, since you've got your bow ready, just pick an enemy who hasn't acted yet (within 30') and fire; you get to add sneak attack damage vs. flat-footed foes. The first regular round of combat is the same, except you get to make a full ranged attack; just watch to see who hasn't acted yet and fire away. The next round, because you didn't take Two-Weapon Fighting, you don't have to drop your bow as you draw your rapier and close for melee. But, because you've got good DEX, you may need to Delay your initiative until an ally moves to threaten a foe; then you move to flanking position. Improved Initiative likely would just make you Delay longer, because it would be foolish to get into melee without a flanking partner in place. Your main source of damage is sneak attack, and there are usually only two ways to make that happen:

foe denied their DEX bonus to AC (which is automatic if they're flat-footed), or
you and an ally are flanking the foe.
Good feat choices include:

Craven (Champions of Ruin) adds +1 point of damage per character level to sneak attack. This is the single best feat for Rogues; take it at level 3 or 6.
Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) lets you Hide from creatures with abilities like blindsight and tremorsense.
prerequisites for Shadowdancer if you want the awesome Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#hideInPlainSight). But buy Mobility as an armor enhancement which grants the feat (Magic Item Compendium).
Snap Kick, when you get the BAB (level 9). Buy the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite; Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn) grant that feat at an affordable price.
Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) magnifies your Rogue special abilities (level 12).

[Amphetryon]

Good feat choices include:

Craven (Champions of Ruin) adds +1 point of damage per character level to sneak attack. This is the single best feat for Rogues; take it at level 3 or 6.
Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) lets you Hide from creatures with abilities like blindsight and tremorsense.
prerequisites for Shadowdancer if you want the awesome Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm#hideInPlainSight). But buy Mobility as an armor enhancement which grants the feat (Magic Item Compendium).
Snap Kick, when you get the BAB (level 9). Buy the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite; Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn) grant that feat at an affordable price.
Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel) magnifies your Rogue special abilities (level 12).

Those might be good choices in a game where they're available, but the OP's initial post clearly says:

I'd appreciate general tips and playstyles more than pure mechanics cheese, since we aren't using any sourcebooks other than the basics, and there are some homebrewed elements. Emphasis mine. Are you intending to imply that Rogues can't work without a bunch of feats outside of core?

[LaughingRogue]

If you're looking for d6s there's a decent build that goes

Rogue --> Assassin --> Nightsong Enforcer --> Dread Commando

which will allow you to pick up a boatload of d6s

This build is especially good if you're DM drops the alignment restriction on Assassin and is stingy on what books you can use seeing as all of the classes are from generally well respected books

[Curmudgeon]

Emphasis mine. Are you intending to imply that Rogues can't work without a bunch of feats outside of core?
As an afficionado of Rogues, I consider every one of the books I mentioned to be among "the basics". (I typically use a couple dozen sources by the time I get a Rogue character into the teen levels.) If the OP instead meant just the 3 core books, then yes, I do consider Rogues to be largely unworkable in combat. With such restrictions the Rogue should concentrate on out-of-combat skills, and just pitch in with a little archery support during fights ─ but with low expectations there.

[begooler]

You mention that your DM is using some homebrew, and that he is using a non-standard level of magic in the campaign. Based on that, I assume he is invested in creating a world that encompasses a particular type of play style that he (or the party) prefers. If you are interested in making a skill based character, I think your best preparation is discuss with your DM what exactly that style is. While there are mechanics laid out for skill-based encounters, it is largely up to the DM what you can do with skills and when.
You don't want to make a UMD rogue in a world where you can't find magic items. You don't want to make a trapsniffing rogue in world where the DM never makes traps. (I was pretty upset with a DM after he insisted we have someone in the party for finding traps... and after I invested in search, disable device, and open lock, and some skill tricks, there was never a trap in any of our sessions.)


As an afficionado of Rogues, I consider every one of the books I mentioned to be among "the basics". (I typically use a couple dozen sources by the time I get a Rogue character into the teen levels.) If the OP instead meant just the 3 core books, then yes, I do consider Rogues to be largely unworkable in combat. With such restrictions the Rogue should concentrate on out-of-combat skills, and just pitch in with a little archery support during fights ─ but with low expectations there.
Okay, I must ask since you have piqued my curiosity. If Faerun specific books and Lords of Madness, are among 'the basics' in your world, what would be an example of a more esoteric or extraneous sourcebook? Scribbles that Skip Williams wrote on a napkin while at a bar?

[Starbuck_II]

What houserules besides Fumbles does your DM use?

[Curmudgeon]

Okay, I must ask since you have piqued my curiosity. If Faerun specific books and Lords of Madness, are among 'the basics' in your world, what would be an example of a more esoteric or extraneous sourcebook?
Since you're one of the few here who knows the difference between "peaked" and "piqued", you merit an answer. :smallwink:

I didn't cite any Dragon or Dungeon content; that's fully official (most issues have a banner like "100% Offical D&D®" on the cover), yet those magazines are harder to acquire than the hardbound books and I don't expect most players to have such access. (Dust Para-Genasi from Dragon # 297 is a good race for a Rogue, however.) I also didn't suggest content from any published adventures, despite a template of considerable use to Rogues in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave and an essential Rogue ACF in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Kingdoms of Kalamar and Ravenloft were developed under license from Wizards of the Coast, but I wouldn't think of referencing those books (which would admittedly be hard to do, as I don't own any :smallamused:). Most fully WotC-approved sources for D&D 3.x are outside "the basics", though I consider that category to encompass some dozens of books.

Scribbles that Skip Williams wrote on a napkin while at a bar? Since I have enough trouble dealing with stuff Skip made up while (ostensibly) sober, I shudder at the thought. :smallyuk:

[Gwendol]

I have to agree with Curmudgeon here; having played a TWF ranger/rogue the full attack using two weapons is very hard to pull off without risking a devastating counter-attack. Since the OP is new to the game I recommend going archer instead (or using thrown weapons).

Outside of combat, make good use of your skills: and especially take care of your sneaking and movement skills.

[Urpriest]

I have to agree with Curmudgeon here; having played a TWF ranger/rogue the full attack using two weapons is very hard to pull off without risking a devastating counter-attack. Since the OP is new to the game I recommend going archer instead (or using thrown weapons).

Outside of combat, make good use of your skills: and especially take care of your sneaking and movement skills.

Though it is important to consider that if the DM is new to the game there might be no risk of such counterattacks. There are many DMs out there who assume that a heavily armored character is "tanking" just by being present in melee range.

[Curmudgeon]

There are many DMs out there who assume that a heavily armored character is "tanking" just by being present in melee range.
When would a Rogue ever be "heavily armored"? Even medium armor trashes those skills, like Tumble, which give the class its distinction. Armor check penalty is anathema to the Rogue.

[Urpriest]

When would a Rogue ever be "heavily armored"? Even medium armor trashes those skills, like Tumble, which give the class its distinction. Armor check penalty is anathema to the Rogue.

Precisely. The rogue is not wearing heavy armor. The fighter analogue is. Hence the rogue will not be attacked, because the DM thinks that heavy armor is some sort of automatic monster-taunter. And to be more accurate it's generally d10 hit points or full BAB or things along those lines.

[begooler]

I agree that ranged attacks will be the way you want to go. Now, if you go that route, you're going to have to figure out how to distinguish yourself from the ranger. One way to do that would be to go with thrown weapons. You'll have a smaller range increment than the ranger, which while not ideal for you, will help distinguish his role from yours. Since you can attack enemies either adjacent to you or across the battlefield (in the same round even) you'll be a little bit more flexible. You can even go with two weapon fighting with thrown weapons, but be wary that TWF is feat intensive, and you are definitely going to want other feats, such as Quick Draw, which will allow you to get a full attack.
I'm not saying that thrown weapons would be optimal, but it would be a fun way to be functional and distinguish yourself from the rest of the party in combat.

[Amphetryon]

I agree that ranged attacks will be the way you want to go. Now, if you go that route, you're going to have to figure out how to distinguish yourself from the ranger. One way to do that would be to go with thrown weapons. You'll have a smaller range increment than the ranger, which while not ideal for you, will help distinguish his role from yours. Since you can attack enemies either adjacent to you or across the battlefield (in the same round even) you'll be a little bit more flexible. You can even go with two weapon fighting with thrown weapons, but be wary that TWF is feat intensive, and you are definitely going to want other feats, such as Quick Draw, which will allow you to get a full attack.
I'm not saying that thrown weapons would be optimal, but it would be a fun way to be functional and distinguish yourself from the rest of the party in combat.
If going the Thrown Weapon route - which has some benefits for you with Sneak Attack and mobility - I'd strongly suggest petitioning for Gloves of the Balanced Hand, so as to avoid eating up all your feats. Buy the book yourself if need be.

[Curmudgeon]

Precisely. The rogue is not wearing heavy armor. The fighter analogue is. Hence the rogue will not be attacked, because the DM thinks that heavy armor is some sort of automatic monster-taunter.
Now, I see that as exactly backward. It's just easier to kill things with (apparently) lower AC, so the monsters (read DM) will pick the easy targets first. Take out either one of your flankers and you're no longer flanked. Why would anyone start with the harder target first, and prolong the period in which they have multiple attackers? :smallconfused:

[Veyr]

He was stating it as a mistake that many new DMs make, Curmudgeon, not suggesting that it made sense or was a good way to play.

[Urpriest]

Now, I see that as exactly backward. It's just easier to kill things with (apparently) lower AC, so the monsters (read DM) will pick the easy targets first. Take out either one of your flankers and you're no longer flanked. Why would anyone start with the harder target first, and prolong the period in which they have multiple attackers? :smallconfused:

Because the monster isn't making the choice, the DM is. The monster's ability to kill its enemies is unimportant to the DM. The DM makes choices based on other criteria, and one of those criteria is the mistaken impression that fighters are tanks by default.

[Curmudgeon]

He was stating it as a mistake that many new DMs make
I got the premise, but it doesn't match either reasonable tactics or my experience. The concept of an easy kill is pretty simple to understand, and I haven't noticed even new DMs fail to grasp this idea.

[begooler]

And, turning our attention back to the rogue...

Depending on how low magic your campaign is, Craft (Weaponsmithing) could go a long way as a skill. If your party doesn't have a lot of magic weapons, sooner or later the mundane weapons you have are going to break or rust. You can use this skill to repair them, as well as to make your own weapons. They are easy enough to make that you can craft weapons at level 1, and it usually takes between a few days and a week.

Another role you can take on in combat is hindering your enemies, by tripping or disarming them. Feats to do this are found on the Combat Expertise Feat chain. (However, these are melee tactics, and we've been suggesting some form of ranged combat.)

[herrhauptmann]

Another role you can take on in combat is hindering your enemies, by tripping or disarming them. Feats to do this are found on the Combat Expertise Feat chain. (However, these are melee tactics, and we've been suggesting some form of ranged combat.)
Problem with trip/disarm is that they're strength related, and that's usually the second or third lowest for rogues. Plus size penalties:
**Trip: Critters get a +4 per size category above medium. And a +4 for being exceptionally stable.
**Disarm: +4 for size category above medium. +4 for wielding a 2handed weapon. -4 for wielding a light weapon. Some weapons give a bonus to disarm, but it's only a -2.
And if you fail your trip/disarm, they can attempt trip/disarm you as a free action. Though there is a way to do a ranged trip or disarm. But it costs extra feats.

Further in combat tactics below: (edited for clarity)

Something not mentioned, occasionally you're going to find yourself fighting something sneak attack/crit immune that is a very tough fight. Oozes, plants, undead, elementals to name a few.
Now there's items/feats that allow you to sneak attack them, but you might not have access to those rule books. Please see Fistful of d6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233) for more info.

So a very simple thing you can do to help the party, rather than sit there and try to hit the thing for 1d6+str, instead try and use the Aid Another action for your party melee fighters.
In addition to providing flanking bonuses to your allies (granted some Sneak attack/crit immune creatures can't be flanked), you can provide a +2 To Hit for one of your allies, or a +2 AC when the creature attacks one of your allies.
This is also useful for the high AC enemy, or the low attack/high damage enemy.
If the party beatstick can only hit when he rolls a 17-20 on the dice, he'll really appreciate you giving him a +4 to hit (flank + aid another).

Typically when I'm in a beginners game, rather than playing a weak character (monk, ninja), or try to avoid overpowering with a stronger class (cleric, druid), I'll play a fighter and/or rogue with a lockdown build. A lockdown build as heavily optimized as I can make it. Which has always worked out well. Lacking serious offense, I steamroll encounters. And as a 'support warrior,' I'm busy granting flanking to half the party (vexing + adaptable flanker from PHB2). And when we're stuck fighting that high AC creature, removing my piddly damage output to grant 'aid another' bonuses to the other characters becomes a very efficient use of my action.