Darkstalker

[thugsb]

As you probably know, this feat is pretty sweet.
"When you hide, creatures with blind-sense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you."

My question is regarding the "Whichever DC is higher". When using Hide and Move Silently, you set the DC with your check and the creature has to match it. If you're silenced, then the DC to hear you is infinite, which would make that the higher DC. Which would make it impossible for anything with these abilities to detect you (with those abilities).

Is that correct? I'm fairly sure it's not RAI, but would it not seem to be RAW?

If you are silenced, would you as GM just give the creature spot checks, but not listen?

And why is the feat not "Whichever DC is lower"? That would surely make more sense?

[Veyr]

Personally, I'd just say that the creature gets to use its Listen/Spot checks as normal, like everybody else. If the creature is one of those Blind/Blindsight creatures, then it only gets a Listen check, though.

[Curmudgeon]

There are no infinite DCs. The Escape Artist DC to walk through an impenetrable Wall of Force is 120, and that's about as high as these things get. On topic, the Listen DC to notice an invisible creature is 80, and DC 100 lets that check pinpoint the creature's square ─ and that still applies if that invisible creature is in magical Silence.

[Divide by Zero]

Also, even if you interpret silence as making all Listen checks automatically fail, there's a substantial difference between "checks automatically fail" and "DC ∞."

[ffone]

Personally, I'd just say that the creature gets to use its Listen/Spot checks as normal, like everybody else. If the creature is one of those Blind/Blindsight creatures, then it only gets a Listen check, though.

Yeah, I interpreted it as "the creature can make a Listen/Spot check to use its special sense", but that implicitly it could still use its normal listening and spotting, like anyone without the special sense.

[Yora]

I think the original ability description was poorly thought off. As it is, you only need to either hide or move silently. You could walk just through the open gates of a castle with all the guards looking, as long as you're really silent while doing it.
Or more realistically, you could sneak around in full plate carrying two large bags of cooking pots. At least you're trying to be quiet and not being seen.

[thugsb]

@Curmudgeon where do you get those DCs from?

The Incorporeal Subtype is, I think, somewhat applicable here: "An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be." OK, that's not an infinite DC, but isn't that equivalent?

@Yora, you're getting at the failing I'm seeing in this feat description. I get a Hide check of 5 but MS DC50, and for some reason the blind creature with tremorsense and blindsight is completely unable to detect me because I'm silent, yet I'm stood right on front of them. Or worse, I get Hide 50 and MS 5, and that same blind creature (that has very good hearing) is still unable to detect me because it's rolling against the 50, not the 5.

It seems to me the "Whichever DC is higher" should simply not be there: "creatures with...tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check to notice you". So why is it there?

Is there anything that says what the bonus to MS is for moving silently (like invis is +40)? Or is it just the set DC 80/100?

Not that I'd complain if it just gave me DC80 to be noticed (and they didn't get to roll against Hide). But it does seem rather ridiculous!

[LaughingRogue]

@Curmudgeon where do you get those DCs from?

The Incorporeal Subtype is, I think, somewhat applicable here: "An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be." OK, that's not an infinite DC, but isn't that equivalent?

@Yora, you're getting at the failing I'm seeing in this feat description. I get a Hide check of 5 but MS DC50, and for some reason the blind creature with tremorsense and blindsight is completely unable to detect me because I'm silent, yet I'm stood right on front of them. Or worse, I get Hide 50 and MS 5, and that same blind creature (that has very good hearing) is still unable to detect me because it's rolling against the 50, not the 5.

It seems to me the "Whichever DC is higher" should simply not be there: "creatures with...tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check to notice you". So why is it there?

Is there anything that says what the bonus to MS is for moving silently (like invis is +40)? Or is it just the set DC 80/100?

Not that I'd complain if it just gave me DC80 to be noticed (and they didn't get to roll against Hide). But it does seem rather ridiculous!

I would assume he is getting them from here http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm

[Urpriest]

Darkstalker applies when you hide, not when you Move Silently. So no matter what, the monster is opposing your Hide check with its Spot or Listen, and effects like Silence are irrelevant. Presumably the DC is altered by the Listen DC modifiers in the Listen description or the Spot modifiers in the Spot description (so different effects for distance or intervening barriers), whichever is worse for the monster trying to spot you.

[thugsb]

Fantastic. Good spot Urpriest. I'm fairly sure you've got the right answer there. Thanks! :)