Binder Build Help

[Arundel]

So I am playing a Binder in an upcoming game and I am really excited about it. I had never played one before and had familiarity with it only in terms of builds made on this board. I read the Tome of Magic and loved the flavor and fluff of the binder. But now I'm trying to make it.

I don't even know where to start with it, I am overwhelmed by the options offered. I am also notoriously bad at spotting traps in builds/feats (my first characters were monk, paladin, and blaster sorc). So I'm really just looking for help with direction and a bit of mechanics/vestige suggestions.

My character vision is mage/diplomacy focused. Bonuses for healing abilities.

My big questions in addition to build helps.

Why are bloodlines so good?
Why is KotSS so good?
What vestiges should I be frequenting?


The Scale of Optimization

Truenamer<Optimized<Power Gaming<Munchkin<Pun Pun
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Character Background
Background: Ceolwulf was born in the Black Forest area of present-day Germany in the late 1320s in a small village deep in the woods. His father was the local healer/wise man for the village and his mother assisted. His birth had been a particularly hard one, and he was an only child as a result. His childhood was happy, but eventful and he soon grew to be a young man. As was the custom in those days, he learned his parents trade with the intention of taking it over when he was of age. In time, he did just that and in the process found a beautiful villager to take as a wife. He was even eventually graced with a child, a boy in 1339. It was a gloriously happy time, the best of his life. All good things must come to an end however.

In 1341 the plague torn through his village and through his life. The majority of his village died, his friends. He and his wife did the best they could, but nothing they did could spare these people the horror, the pain. Nothing could save his heart when his wife fell ill, then subsequently his child. Try as he might, they both succumbed to the horror of pestilent death, leaving him nearly alone with the corpses of the village.

In a word, he went mad. He spent days out side his home, yelling at the sky, cursing the gods. Why? Why had they taken so much from him? Al he had ever wanted to do was to help his friends and family. They had taken his devotion, his love, and spat it back into his face, laughing as he wept for his loss.

The word mad doesn't quite do it justice though, he was driven to return what he had lost. He knew it was wrong, but the only way he could even have a hope was to seek out the practitioners of the dark magics, to sell his soul.

He learned of the arts from the whispers of the healers from other villages, whispers of the witches and warlock in the dark beyond the boundaries of villages. He heard the priests lecture on the evils of such creatures and how they would pay for their powers in the worlds beyond. He made it his goal to find these creatures, and make them grant him the power to reverse the horrors fate had played upon him. If only he had given himself the power to note the ever passing years. Before he knew it, he was old.

But find the powers he eventually did, learning the knowledge from a dying old man far far in the woods. Ceolwulf returned to civilization and began practicing his mastery over these forces, learning how to use them to heal wounds that his more traditional skill could not. The townspeople grew frightened of him however, and ran him and his infernal magics out of town, forcing him to find another town to settle and practice. Again and again the cycle repeated, a new home only to be driven out by his new family. While none would say his powers weren't useful, it was certain these were not the powers of God.

One day in his 70th spring he was running for a particularly viscous mob of villagers when he tripped. As he fell, he imagined that this would finally be the end to him. If he was lucky at least he would finally see his wife and child again. A funny thing happened when he landed though. You see, he landed on a branch. In a tree. 10 meters off the ground. In what had once been Central Park. He had quite literally stumbled into the new world.

It was a world ripe with mystery, with wonder, with forgotten knowledge. It was a second chance.


Personality: Ceolwulf is himself a divided fellow. At his best times (and least senile), the kind old healer comes back to him, and he is genuinely concerned with needs and ills of those around him. He can help, aid and comfort these peoples as only a wise elder can, providing insight and advice. When he is like this, he is frequently seen as both trustworthy and harmless.

Not all days are good though. Frequently, he is reminded of his ever advancing age and the foe he strives every day to elude, death. When mortality is on his mind, he becomes much colder, distant and even aloof. His mind becomes focused on his vestiges and he shifts from a friendly old man to person who really defies an accurate alignment. Grouchy at best, wrathful at worst, this is his default state while wandering and adventuring. He is extremely distrustful when he is in one of these moods. He remembers all the times that he was driven from a village by foolish residents who were to stupid to comprehend the majesty of his powers.

Appearance: Ceolwulf is old. Not in the way a 60 year old is old, but in the "oh dear god, how are they still alive?" old. He doesn't spend too much time on his appearance under most circumstances, and it shows. His hair and beard, both grey (though from fading or dirt it is hard to say) flow wildly, busting out from below the hood of his cloak. He wears a faded green cloak over his garments. These garments can be called robes, but at this point rags may be more appropriate. He typically has a walking stick and a large worn and beaten leather backpack containing everything he owns.

Nuts and Bolts
Age: 72
Gender: Male
Race: Human
Class: Binder6
30 point Buy
Most Books allowed

I would venture to guess that being firmly in the venerable age category makes the front line bindering out of the question.

Class adjustment:
Bloodlines will be limited to 1.5 your HD. Example: Level 10 Binders can only have an EBL of max 15. Level 15 Binders can have max of 20, 5 can have max of 10, ect
Item Crafting with Astaroth will be nerfed, you cannot create every single magic item in the game
Zycerell Summon Alien's abilities will still be a standard action, only 1 creature/4 EBL is the limit and they last for minutes = Binder Level. At EBL 10 they become Hours/Level

Dipping is discouraged heavily. I get two extra free feats at game start.

Additionally, I receive the following setting bonuses.
Being a part of this House grants an extraordinarily ability functionally identical to (and stacking with) bardic lore type abilities. Caster is considered a level 1 bard for purposes of the check. Members also gain +2 to all knowledge (local, politics, region), gather information, and diplomacy. Additionally, members of this house use mind effecting abilities and spells as if they were a caster of one level higher than their current level.

+5 untyped bonus to craft

My work in progress:
{TABLE]Level|Class|HP|Fort|Ref|Will|Class Features|Feats|Skills|Notes
1|Binder|8|2|0|2|Soul Binding|Works in progress|Works in progress|+5 to Craft Alchemy
2|Binder|d8|3|0|3|Pact Augmentation (1 Ability), Supress Sign||TBA|
3|Binder|d8|3|1|3|-||TBA
4|Binder|d8|4|1|4|Bonus Feat|Improved Binding|TBA
5|Binder|d8|4|1|4|Pact Augmentation (2 Abilities)||TBA
6|Binder|d8|5|2|5|Soul Guardian (Immune to Fear)||TBA
[/TABLE]

Thanks in advance!
Inb4 TOB

[Quirp]

First: the binder handbook
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871830/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook

I would put the improved binding feat to your first level. There are other feats with higher requirements you might want to take at later levels.

At your peaceful times you probably want to bind Naberius and Buer.
When adventuring Focalor (mage and griev in one package) is probably a good choice.
You can also look into the link in my signature for my ramblings about the vestiges in the ToM.

[Undercroft]

Knight of the sacred seal is usualyl taken so often because it gives you full BAB (as opposed to the medium from sticking with plain binder) and buffs one of your vestiges (Zceryl is the best choice, however i think you need to then wait for lvl 10 when you get her before you enter the PrC).

For a caster-ish feel i like to opt for Focalor (at will lightning strikes, as well as some other goodies) and Karsus / The Green Lady (green lady actualy by paizo, but if you can run it past your DM it's worth it) for using spell trigger items as a wizard of your EBL.
Then later bind Zceryl as much as possible. You get summoning like a sorcerer of your EBL and a lot of other cool things (telepathy+mindsight, bunches of DR from psuedonatural template, etc).

The most important feat is the one that essentialyl adds +2 to your binder level for working out what level vestiges you can bind (can't remember off the top of my head). Other feats are nifty, but thats the real important one. Expel Vestige is another good one since you can then swap out for another vestige if you find you need it.

At the lower levels you'll probably be doing a bit of melee (Aym for the fire aura thing or Savnok for the armour). Then when you get Dahlver-Nar you become a bit more durable due to sharing damage with an enemy. pact augmentation for either some DR or fast healing and simply outlast the enemy.

Then later once you have focalor you get a blasty-ish feel. Karus (or The Green lady if your DM says yes) are great if you have easy access to wands or a good magic staff.

Also, see if you can get ahold of a Mind Leach symbiont. Then proceed to break your DM's game by using it in conjunction with Naberius :P

[Yora]

Concerning Bloodlines: As I see it, using bloodlines to make a binder more powerful is an exploit of the klunky wording of the Unearthed Arcana book. As I read it, bloodline levels were supposed to effectivly add and increase a Level Adjustment to the character as he gains bloodline abilities. However, they called it bloodline level even though you don't get any hit dice. And certain aspects about binding are calculated based on your character level.
The exploit is to consider the bloodline levels as being calculated into the character level, which in my oppinion doesn't make any sense, but would increase your power as a binder.
However, I think I'm not the only DM who would consider pulling something like this off as a very poor attempt at cheating.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.
Yes, it does say that bloodline levels do increase the Caster Level of a character, but is also very explicit in mentioning that a chacters spells per day and spells known are not affected. Tome of Magic didn't exist at the time, but I'm very sure if it did, bloodlines would also have included the line "does not grant access to vestiges of a higher level".
The DM can either read the description and try to discern what the creator of bloodlines intended, or he can just close his eyes and say "we do exactly what the words say" if it makes sense or not.

[Arundel]

Hmm, that makes some sense on the bloodline. I read the srd on them and couldn't understand what on earth they were talking about.

I can't see him making any use of melee fighting, he does have a natural -6 to all physical attributes so HP and attack damage will be a bit off.

I'm looking at Focalor for combat days and one of the diplomancy vestiges for social days (probably Naberius thanks Quirp, excellent vestige rundown too).

[HappyBlanket]

I can't see him making any use of melee fighting, he does have a natural -6 to all physical attributes so HP and attack damage will be a bit off.

All physical attributes? Including Con?
Con is a Binder's secondary stat, and alot of your Vestige's abilities rely on it. Plus, many of your Vestiges support roles as a front line character... Con is really not something you should be dumping. Also; don't make the mistake of assuming that Binder = Caster, because a Caster you most certainly are not. You'll miss out on a lot of useful Vestiges if you're playing a Binder the way you would a Sorcerer.

As for feats: Expel Vestige, and the Sudden ___ Supernatural Ability line, picking S_SA feats to your discretion. Sudden Focus if you're using Save effects, Widen if you're blasting, Extend if you're buffing, and so on.

As for Prestige Classes: KotSS is a great class to take, but it's a melee orientated class. Take levels of Sorcerer and Anima Mage if you'd prefer a more arcane role in the party (incidentally, ignore what I said about not playing a Binder like a Sorcerer if you're going into Anima Mage).

[Psyren]

Zceryll is extremely powerful and elevates the Binder a whole tier by herself. If your DM allows it, great, but you should plan around it being banned.

[Arundel]

All physical attributes? Including Con?
Con is a Binder's secondary stat, and alot of your Vestige's abilities rely on it. Plus, many of your Vestiges support roles as a front line character... Con is really not something you should be dumping. Also; don't make the mistake of assuming that Binder = Caster, because a Caster you most certainly are not. You'll miss out on a lot of useful Vestiges if you're playing a Binder the way you would a Sorcerer.

The character is a 72 year old human, so yeah the age penalties are nasty on the physical side. I'm not dumping it, but its gonna be a bit low. I have a 30 point buy to work with, but as it stands I basically start at:
STR: 2
DEX: 2
CON: 2
INT: 11
WIS: 11
CHA: 11
Then point buy goes in there somewhere. Probably gonna dump WIS (binder gets good Will progression).


Zceryll is extremely powerful and elevates the Binder a whole tier by herself. If your DM allows it, great, but you should plan around it being banned.

I posted the DM adjustments to the that particular vestige in the OP. I think its still going to be a pretty good choice, but as I also said in OP, my eye for optimization is pretty poor.

[Yora]

Even if you want to play an old and frail man, I would get Strength at least to 6th, so you can carry your own water bottle, so to speak. And all characters need Constitution. At least 10, but a 12 would also just mean a 15 in his youth, which is not THAT spectacular. After all, he's still adventuring at that age, he's a really tough guy. Dexterity is also a very good ability, but I think not especially important for binders.
I would probably focus on Intelligence and Charisma, while still keeping Wisdom at 10 or 11 at least.

[Hazzardevil]

The thing is that Bloodlines can get all sorts of cheese done like what I experimented with in a game.

I take a level of Half-Dragon Paragon, its level stack with sorcerer for spells per day/known
I take 2 levels in the Hlaf-Dragon Racial Class in the homebrew section. You may swap this with other things as desired.
This stacks with any casting class. Such as sorcerer and warlock.
Now with a level in sorcererer this is level 4 spells per day/known
I have 3 bloodline levels, this now makes the sorcerer cast as a level 10,
Because you are treared as being 3 levels higher in half-dragon parargon and racial class, this means that you now essentially have 4 levels in paragon, 5 in racial and a single level of sorcerer.
Not to mention 6th level casting as a warlock.
That is why it is broken.

[HappyBlanket]

Yes, Wisdom is definitely a dump stat; it serves little to no purpose whatsoever to the Binder. But I'd also suggest dumping Int as well, depending on your party role; you'll never consult your Int stat when using any of your supernatural abilities, so the only purpose your Int serves is to boost your skill points... Don't get me wrong though; being a skill monkey is one of the many party roles that a Binder can fulfill, and with your Cha you'll make a rather excellent party face. I'm just saying that Int is probably, at best, your third most important stat (below Cha and Con). At worse, it's your second least important (over Wis).

Zceryll, even with a somewhat nerfed Summon Alien ability, still grants you Mindsight. And the Summon Alien ability is still rather good.

And no matter what your role, you need Con. Consider anything below a 6 in Con to be a death sentence, and anything below a 12 to be unoptimized, at best.

...I feel I can't assert enough that Binders are not spell casters. It's a bold and italic worthy point that you really need to consider. Depending on the vestiges bound, a Binder can turn into pretty much everything from a party face, to a gish, to a skill monkey, to a scout, etc, etc, etc. The only roles it has difficulty with is being a Healer or being a primary Arcanist (again, excepting Anima Mage)... Well... Maybe I'm overreacting. Focalor and Karsus are very arcane orientated, and binding both might get you the arcanist role.

[Person_Man]

Really quick and dirty vestige progression advice:

Remember that the Improved Binder feat gives you +2 to your effective Binder level for the purpose of what vestiges you can bind, so you should always take it unless you are going to Binder 20 and your DM does not let you retrain feats.

Don't bother with prestige classes or bloodlines unless you really know what you're doing or you are given the bloodline for free. Binder 20 is a perfectly playable Tier 3 or 2 class just as it is. KotSS locks you into a single favored vestige, which you shouldn't do unless you really know what you like. And bloodlines are really funky rules, which many people frown upon.

Effective Binder Level: Vestige: Advice
1: Naberius: If you understand how to use Vile feats and drugs (which have great effects, but deal ability damage, which Naberius heals) use this vestige, which will give you Diplomancy and the above buffs. If not, at frist level (effective Binder Level 3 with the feat) use:

3: Dahlver-Nar: Buy a cheap mount. Use Shield Self on it, and now you've effectively increased your hit points by 50%. First round of combat wade into the fray and use Maddening Moan to Daze your enemies (avoid hitting your friends) and then just smack people in melee. If there is one powerful or high hit point enemy then try your best to switch Shield Self over to him instead.

5: Paimon: Dance of Death and Whirlwind Attack! Have fun slaughtering mooks. Because at 3rd level you're with these abilities you are going to be chopping through them like a lawn mower. Just be aware that Paimon becomes less and less useful as you gain levels and enemies can't be killed with one hit. But dont' worry, there is always...

7: Kas: You can permanently Blind enemies when you crit them, and gain the ability to crit undead. This makes you one of the best debuff machines available at your ECL. Your Rogue friends in particular will love you. Kas is from Dragon Magic 341, which is actually not that hard to find on the internet with google. (Try searching for "Kas's Protection").

9: If you have a caster in your party with Energy Substitution (Cold) and the Lord of the Uttercold feat, take Acererak, wade into combat, and have him dump cold/negative energy fireballs on top of you while you slay enemies. If not, then Balam is nice addition for the reroll on anything (especially Skills).

10: (Actual Binder level of 8): Congrats, you can bind 2 vestiges at once! This means you can take a secondary vestige that you otherwise wouldn't use very often, like Malphas for scouting or Astaroth for Suggestion. You might also look at:

1: Ronove: Key ability is Swift Action Mage Hand with a Strength equal to your Binder level. Buy a large thin metal sheet, and move it around every turn to block line of sight. Remember, enemies can not target you if they don't have line of sight.

5: Karsus: Lets you use Wizard items at will, which is a fairly huge deal if you know what you're doing. Greater Dispel Magic is great against buffed casters, and +2 to the DC of magic items is very handy when combined with a magic weapon with a Save or Lose effect and another debuff field, like those granted by Vanus, Chupoclops, and/or Focalor.

Once you get to level 10 (effective Binder level 12), you get:

12: Zceryll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718): This is the reason to play a binder. Unlimited Summoning, Telepathy, Mindsight, a great Save or Daze effect, and a template that grants Spell Resistance.


Once you get Zceryll, everything else is just a matter of personal preference.

Hope this helps.