Multiple Iaijutsu Attacks WITHOUT Gnome Quickrazor

[Yorae]

Anyone know if there's a way to do this? The quickrazor just totally clashes with the flavor of a "samurai"-type character so much that I cant' bring my self to use it. You'd have to be able to sheath the weapon as a free action.

Would a Glove of Storing work for this? Allows you to store and retrieve an item help in your hand as a free action, but it doesn't use the word "draw".

[mootoall]

But my Gnomish Quickrazor is katana-sized!

If you're really stuck in the "Flavor is all by the books" mindset, then dropping a weapon is a free action and, if I recall correctly, Quick Draw makes drawing one the same. Still not the "Flavor" you want though.

Hell, the flavor of Iajutsu Focus is "He who strikes first, strikes last." Hence the "flatfooted and weapon drawn in the same round" requirement. If you're already departing from that flavor, well, why not that had by the Quickrazor?

[Tvtyrant]

Throwing Knives that you use as melee weapons with a -4 to hit and then drop, letting you draw an entire rounds worth or more.

[FMArthur]

Does drawing a weapon actually have a definition somewhere that relates to where you kept it? All I'm seeing is that if it's out of reach you treat it as retreiving a stored item. Glove of Storing (or rather, Glove of the Master Strategist, the cheap version) might actually work. It might not if 'drawing a weapon' must be the specific action of that name to count as drawing it, because Glove of Storing has its own proprietary action.

I'd allow it, though. Ask your DM.

[Cog]

There's another alternative, though you probably won't like it: Soulknife. Let your weapon go, and you can remanifest it as a free action; once per turn normally, but Kalashtar can get another go at it with a swift action by a feat, or anybody can get multiple daggers per round with a Dragon feat. As per Complete Psionic, the free draw counts as Quick Draw for prereqs, too.

[Yorae]

There's another alternative, though you probably won't like it: Soulknife. Let your weapon go, and you can remanifest it as a free action; once per turn normally, but Kalashtar can get another go at it with a swift action by a feat, or anybody can get multiple daggers per round with a Dragon feat. As per Complete Psionic, the free draw counts as Quick Draw for prereqs, too.

The Soulknife thing is pretty cool, even if it only really works once (possibly twice with Kalashtar). Hadn't thought of that at all (though it doesn't work for what I have in mind since this guy has an actual, material sword via Ancestral Daisho).

Looking at the PHB definition of drawing a weapon, I think retrieving one from a Glove of Storing would count -- it doesn't say where you need to retrieve an item from to draw it, just that you retrieve it "so that you can use it combat."

[erikun]

Would a Glove of Storing work for this? Allows you to store and retrieve an item help in your hand as a free action, but it doesn't use the word "draw".
I wouldn't think so, no. Glove of Storing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gloveofStoring) uses the term "retrieving", the same as a backpack or Portable Hole, and so wouldn't apply. You'd actually need to draw a weapon to make use of Iajutsu Focus, hence the use of the quickrazor - it can be sheathed as a free action as well.

If your DM allows Quick Draw to allow sheathing as a free action as well, you could Iajutsu Focus full attack with any weapon - although I suspect most DMs would remove such houserules after seeing you do so.

You could certainly draw multiple weapons, dropping them as your hands became full, for multiple Iajutsu attacks. A Glove of Storing would be one place you could stick some extra swords instead of dropping them, but then you'd have one sword in your glove and couldn't use it for another Iajutsu strike. Also, while the two-weapon fighting rules have penalities for your off-hand, there aren't any penalities for fighting one-handed with your off hand: you could draw one weapon with one hand for the first iterative, then another weapon with the off-hand for the second iterative, without worrying about TWF penalities.

Even better: draw one katana with both hands, hold it in your off hand, then draw the second one-handed in your primary hand. It avoids possible complaints about off-hand penalities, but obviously limits you to only two attacks (three with the gloves).

If your DM is lenient, see if you could get a modified Returning enhancement that returns weapons to their sheathes if you aren't holding them. That way, you could draw/drop as many weapons as you can carry.

[Cespenar]

No one probably cares about this, but the concept of "multiple iaijutsu attacks in a same round" takes all the flavor and meaning behind iaijutsu, throws it in the air, and Shock Trooper Leap Attacks it into oblivion.

[HunterOfJello]

Is there a problem with walking around with multiple weapons and drawing them with Quick Draw each time you attack?

[MeeposFire]

Is there a problem with walking around with multiple weapons and drawing them with Quick Draw each time you attack?

Outside of cost and sheer insanity on space limitations no there is no restriction.

[Ravens_cry]

Is there a problem with walking around with multiple weapons and drawing them with Quick Draw each time you attack?
Enchantment costs will be insane. Still, it could work.

[faceroll]

Outside of cost and sheer insanity on space limitations no there is no restriction.

I don't think Cespenar was talking about mechanical issues.

[Cog]

Another thought, though a little off topic: build off a Tome of Battle base instead, and focus on standard-action strikes. You'll have a move action left to resheath, and the flavor looks very classically iaijutsu to me. Strikes usually lag behind full attacks, and strike+iai would of course lag behind full attack iai, but depending on how you set things up it might be enough, if you can spend all the resources you would have been using to get the full attack iai on other things instead.

[faceroll]

Another thought, though a little off topic: build off a Tome of Battle base instead, and focus on standard-action strikes. You'll have a move action left to resheath, and the flavor looks very classically iaijutsu to me. Strikes usually lag behind full attacks, and strike+iai would of course lag behind full attack iai, but depending on how you set things up it might be enough, if you can spend all the resources you would have been using to get the full attack iai on other things instead.

You could use that diamond mind maneuver for touch attack strikes, throw on some greater psionic strikes, full on power attack for some solid flick of the wrist damage.

[Yuki Akuma]

No one probably cares about this, but the concept of "multiple iaijutsu attacks in a same round" takes all the flavor and meaning behind iaijutsu, throws it in the air, and Shock Trooper Leap Attacks it into oblivion.

Have you ever seen an iaijutsu practitioner?

They make multiple strikes before sheathing, you know.

[Cespenar]

Have you ever seen an iaijutsu practitioner?

They make multiple strikes before sheathing, you know.

Exactly. What the OP asked was a way to full attack while drawing and sheathing between each individual strike in the full attack maneuver.

[Urpriest]

I'd go for the Katana-chucker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134276) build personally.

[JaronK]

Have you ever seen an iaijutsu practitioner?

They make multiple strikes before sheathing, you know.

Not only that, but even the Iaijutsu Master PrC makes multiple attacks between draws with IF damage.

It's not like the skill is quite clear as far as to whether you even need to draw so much. It says you have to attack immediately after... but does that mean the next thing you do, or does it apply to all attacks during the round? It's not like it's much of a balance issue considering the Quickrazor can already full attack with it, and real world Iaido/Iaijutsu practitioners do make multiple attacks, so the fluff actually works better if you get the full attack of IF when you draw once.

JaronK

[Thurbane]

Enchantment costs will be insane. Still, it could work.
Is there any sort of enchantment that would make the weapon reappear in it's sheath as soon as you drop it?

It might work with a -2 Cursed Sword, strangely enough:

The sword’s owner automatically draws it and fights with it even when she meant to draw or ready some other weapon. The sword can be gotten rid of only by means of limited wish, wish, or miracle.

...of course, a permanent -2 to hit and damage is going to suck. You'll want to have a lot of Greater Magic Weapon spells hanging around. :smalltongue:

[Ozymandias]

Have you ever seen an iaijutsu practitioner?

They make multiple strikes before sheathing, you know.

Kata almost always include post-drawing strikes - from what, this is usually to simulate attacking opponents other than the one you killed with the first cut, although there is the possibility that the first cut is blocked.

In any case, the remainder of the kata isn't actually iaido - it's kenjutsu. Of course in an actual combat situation it's sort of ridiculous to study only iaijutsu.

My point is that attacking, sheathing your sword, attacking again, etc strain believability pretty hard. Iai was studied because getting the first cut is the most important thing in a fight, not because drawing your sword and simultaneously attacking gives it a magical increase in lethality. It goes back to the fact that a katana is a sidearm, worn off the battlefield - if actually given time to prepare, you'd take a bow or spear.

That said, iai is all sorts of cool. Transforming it into "skill-based sneak-attack" kind of takes out some of the je ne sais quoi..

[faceroll]

Is there any sort of enchantment that would make the weapon reappear in it's sheath as soon as you drop it?

It might work with a -2 Cursed Sword, strangely enough:

...of course, a permanent -2 to hit and damage is going to suck. You'll want to have a lot of Greater Magic Weapon spells hanging around. :smalltongue:

That's a hilariously brilliant idea.

"Well, see, I couldn't NOT use this sword, so I've become very good at striking with it even when I accidentally draw it...."

[King Atticus]

If your DM is lenient, see if you could get a modified Returning enhancement that returns weapons to their sheathes if you aren't holding them. That way, you could draw/drop as many weapons as you can carry.

I think this is beautiful. Makes sense, devastatingly effective and it would make for really cool visual effect.

[sreservoir]

Is there any sort of enchantment that would make the weapon reappear in it's sheath as soon as you drop it?

It might work with a -2 Cursed Sword, strangely enough:

...of course, a permanent -2 to hit and damage is going to suck. You'll want to have a lot of Greater Magic Weapon spells hanging around. :smalltongue:

for practical purposes, I think the iaijutsu damage would be enough to make that negligible.

[Amnestic]

Iai was studied because getting the first cut is the most important thing in a fight,

I dunno, personally I'm more of the opinion that getting the last cut in a fight is the most important, but that's just me.

And hey, if you can make the first and last the same thing, well, that's just gravy.

[Yuki Akuma]

In the real world, the first strike in a sword fight is generally also the last.

[Ozymandias]

I dunno, personally I'm more of the opinion that getting the last cut in a fight is the most important, but that's just me.

And hey, if you can make the first and last the same thing, well, that's just gravy.

I can't argue with that.

Iai, therefore, is a gravy-based martial art.

[Stallion]

Iai, therefore, is a gravy-based martial art.

Congrats, sir. Win.

[Thurbane]

for practical purposes, I think the iaijutsu damage would be enough to make that negligible.
Well, that's probably true enough. I wonder if, by RAW, you can add extra abilities to a -2 cursed sword?

A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
I guess that means no.

So, if you were going to go down the cursed sword route, you'd probably want methods to add abilities to the sword in other ways - through class features, or via other magic items (Gauntlets of Weaponry Arcane, Sacred Scabbard etc.)...

I'm actually interested in building an NPC around this concept now. :smalltongue:

[sreservoir]

I'm actually interested in building an NPC around this concept now. :smalltongue:

"I got stuck with this cursed sword some time ago. I'm very good at using it."

[Yorae]

I admit that the image of draw -> strike -> sheath -> draw -> strike -> sheath for a full attack is pretty ridiculous.

However, the Glove of Storing / Glove of the Master Strategist image of:
Snap fingers, sword appears in hand as you strike, then disappears, then reappears in a flash as you make next strike for a full attack is pretty ridiculously awesome.

[Stallion]

Maybe a little off topic here, but what would the proper... technique, I guess, for using Iajitsu Focus with an unarmed strike?

[FMArthur]

Maybe a little off topic here, but what would the proper... technique, I guess, for using Iajitsu Focus with an unarmed strike?

You'd have to find a way to "draw" an unarmed strike as a weapon. Soulknives with the Reshape Mind Blade (unarmed strike) feat could do it, but they can only draw it once a round.

[NNescio]

You'd have to find a way to "draw" an unarmed strike as a weapon. Soulknives with the Reshape Mind Blade (unarmed strike) feat could do it, but they can only draw it once a round.

Can someone figure out how to do it in some way that involves a Warforged rocket pawnch?

[Veyr]

I admit that the image of draw -> strike -> sheath -> draw -> strike -> sheath for a full attack is pretty ridiculous.

However, the Glove of Storing / Glove of the Master Strategist image of:
Snap fingers, sword appears in hand as you strike, then disappears, then reappears in a flash as you make next strike for a full attack is pretty ridiculously awesome.
This was the basis behind the Swordmage (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13), in fact.

[Yorae]

This was the basis behind the Swordmage (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13), in fact.

...

...

that class has a 9th level incantation that cuts you with a sword SO SHARP that it divides your atoms, causing a nuclear explosion.

Totally. Frickin'. Awesome.

[MeeposFire]

Can someone figure out how to do it in some way that involves a Warforged rocket pawnch?

Oh you want the old "warforged plasma canon" build. I wonder if you can still find that?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It might not be exactly what you're looking for, but (as far as I can tell) nothing prevent you from using whirlwind attack in conjunction with iajutsu then pumping your reach way up giving you a cinematic one hit one kill on multiple targets with a single draw.

[BenInHB]

I have an idea, an amazing swordsmen that has let his incredible skill go a little to his head. He refuses to use a sword in anything but pristine condition. Once he draws and strikes that sword is now flawed (dirty, bloody, knicked, scratched, dulled, etc..) so he drops it and draws another fresh sword to deliver his next strike.

Over the years he has accrued a collection of swords taken from warriors he respected or deemed worthy opponents. Much of his free time each day is devoted to the maintenance of these weapons. Each blade has a name and a story, some even a lineage of masters. He often reminisces as he cleans and caresses each one, honoring the memory of its former owners and reliving the battles that brought the weapon into his possession.

[Ravens_cry]

...

...

that class has a 9th level incantation that cuts you with a sword SO SHARP that it divides your atoms, causing a nuclear explosion.

Totally. Frickin'. Awesome.

<Morbo>NUCLEAR EXPLOSIONS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!</Morbo>
Well, sorta they do, but the splitting needs to produce a neutron that splits other atoms, which releases a neutron, which splits and atom, and so forth, creating a chain reaction.
Only some (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-235) isotopes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium_239) can do this.
Thank you, services will be held for dead cat-girls with a 21 fireball salute.

[Aceon]

It might not be exactly what you're looking for, but (as far as I can tell) nothing prevent you from using whirlwind attack in conjunction with iajutsu then pumping your reach way up giving you a cinematic one hit one kill on multiple targets with a single draw.

Not only is there nothing preventing you from doing this, but the OA FAQ rather specifically allows WWA + Iaijutsu stack:


If a 10th-level weapon master is surrounded by, say, a
bunch of low-level thugs, is it possible to use the ki
whirlwind ability in conjunction with an iaijutsu attack if
they’re flat-footed?
If you can draw the weapon during the same round you
make the ki whirlwind attack, yes.

[Aceon]

Also, and I know I am a few years late to the party here, but I have been on haitus since 2007, but anyway, you need to read the actual rules governing Iaijutsu Strikes in normal combat on p. 81 of Oriental Adventures. There is no reason to draw multiple swords in a single round of combat. One will suffice for all of your attacks and if you win initiative (and I recommend that you do) then your foe will be flat-footed and subject to Iaijutsu Focus bonus damage for each and every one of your iterative strikes during the round. If you have 2WF or Flurry with a Sword or some other way of doing 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 attacks...go for it. The ALL get IF bonus dice. It doesn't say so, but I could easily see just making a single check for all of your attacks that round. Otherwise it gets a bit cumbersome.

The relevant info is here:


IAIJUTSU STRIKES IN NORMAL COMBAT
You can use your Iaijutsu Focus bonus damage in normal
combat too, but only when you are attacking a flat-footed opponent
and you draw your weapon in the same round you strike.

[Aceon]

Several folks had wondered about using a glove of storing or something similar. Sorry, but it won't work. The Iajutsu rules specifically state you must draw your weapon from a scabbard or sheath.

If you had to fight in round 2, I might suggest a Belt of Battle to get a free move action to sheath your weapon. Of course it would be helpful if your iterative attacks or whirlwind attack in round one left you with no enemies in threat range, because sheathing a sword will be a move action which provokes an attack of opportunity. You may want to get ways of getting extra move actions or extra 5 foot steps to get you out of harms way to sheath your blade at the end of the round, or as part of your next round. Provided you have Quick Draw (which you need as a pre-Req for IM anyway) if you begin round 2 with weapon in hand, you could use a move action to sheath it. Assuming you could create conditions where you can force your foe to be flat-footed...say you are fighting someone who is struggling to keep their balance, and provided they do NOT have 5 ranks in balance, then voila: they are still flat-footed. A 1st level grease spell may help with this, as does Path of Frost. Also there are plenty of spells, martial maneuvers and class abilities and feats which can help you to get them flat-footed. Just remember this, Flat-footed is NOT mechanically the same as "denied Dex to AC". Flat-footed is a condition. Denied Dex to AC is a result. In other words, a character may be denied their Dex bonus to AC as a result of being flat-footed. Or a Rogue or Barbarian might NOT be denied Dex IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT THEY ARE FLAT FOOTED. That means, Rogues and Barbs get to eat your IF bonus damage...and there is not a damn thing they can do about it!

Sneak Attack is a heck of a lot easier to pull off than Flat-Footed. Which is extremely limited in scope. The result "Denied Dex bonus to AC" can be a result of a cornucopia of conditions.

Flat-flooted is only:

surprise round
1st round of combat and before your turn to act
balancing (only if you have fewer than 5 ranks of balance)
climbing
other feat, item, class ability or spell which which specifically calls for a Flat-Footed condition


Getting back to the multiple sword question... D&D has many alternate rules and substitutions and magic spells and items...suffice to say that when the words "as if" are used, for all rules purposes "as if" is the same as saying "equals". Thus I would carry an "efficient quiver" read the text...


...as many as six objects of the same general size and shape as a bow (spears, staffs, or the like). Once the owner has filled it, the quiver can produce any item she wishes, as if from a regular quiver or scabbard.

[Soranar]

The only way I can see to optimize a cursed sword is to have a vow of poverty character

The only problem would be to have a simple cursed weapon instead of a sword, so that it doesn't break your vow

[jok]

The relevant info is here:

Originally Posted by Oriental Adventures p. 81
IAIJUTSU STRIKES IN NORMAL COMBAT
You can use your Iaijutsu Focus bonus damage in normal
combat too, but only when you are attacking a flat-footed opponent
and you draw your weapon in the same round you strike.


That is an interesting take on Iaijutsu focus. Other guides I have read seem to think that only the first strike after drawing the weapon can be Iaijutsu focused. The Iaijutsu focus skill says:

If you attack a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing a melee weapon, you can deal extra damage, based on the result of an Iaijutsu Focus check.

Since both quotes do not contradict each other and the skill quote has the word immediately the saver guess would be that Iaijutsu focus only works on the next strike. It doesn't help that all examples and the side bar only talk about surprise rounds or leave things like pounce unmentioned.

Now my personal opinion is that all corner rule cases should be ruled in favor of tier 3 and below classes but that is not RAW...

[Stallion]

Holy necromancy Batman!

[Malroth]

Grab a cursed -2 katana as your default weapon and one other weapon, Draw either weapon and attack with it, it will be your -2 katana. Drop the katana. Attempt to draw your other weapon and attack with it, the -2 katana will teleport into your hand instead leaving your backup weapon in it's sheath, repeat untill you've made your full iterative attacks.

[Vizzerdrix]

The +3 version of Obah Blessed gives you a total of 6 arms and multi attack. Draw 6 blades and go to town.

Also +4 to str and con, and +6 to dex and cha. I may have to make this beasty...