GITP Community Monster Class Competition Discussion Thread

[Stycotl]

July's contest:

GITP Community Monster Class Competition I: Blowin' in the Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204734)

Get to it!

[Stycotl]

Expressing interest.

It's a tricky category to work within though. There's not many air subtype creatures out there, and even fewer interesting ones.

So I think it bears digging through the books to find something that fits. I presume anything that could go with 'blowing in the wind' is allowed? Or perhaps we'll be scored on how well a monster class fits the idea?

anything that you think can bend to the theme; i'm not going to be a nazi about how closely it fits the theme––that'll be for the voters.

[Benly]

The monster class itself must be your own work, though as mentioned above, it can be based off of a preexisting monster. It must, however, be created fresh for this contest––no previously made, previously posted monster classes.

Does "no previously posted monster classes" disallow creating a new version of a monster someone has previously created a monster class for? I suspect not from context, but I'd rather be clear.

[Stycotl]

Does "no previously posted monster classes" disallow creating a new version of a monster someone has previously created a monster class for? I suspect not from context, but I'd rather be clear.

you mean, redesigning a monster class that you or someone else have already done? that should be fine, so long as there are significant divergences from the initial monster class.

[Stycotl]

does everyone understand the rule set? is there anything that could be clarified or fixed?

would you guys like it if i broadened the topic to include any elemental theme, seeing as this is the first contest and we're just warming up?

[Hyudra]

That might help. As is, it's really restrictive, because it's hard to match the theme, with the relatively scarce supply of air-based monsters (even a browse of the recommended lists for Elemental Plane of Air and Pandemonium turns up very little that could be considered worthwhile).

[Stycotl]

ok, i'll change it to anything elemental-related, again in whatever fashion you perceive that to mean.

[Mystic Muse]

I'll get working on one when I get the chance.

[Stycotl]

just a reminder; you guys have 5 days (including today) to get a monster class up. pick something easy and get it up today or tomorrow.

easy in the case of a monster class just means low CR, since CR equals class levels. pick a CR 3 monster and then you only need to make a 3-level class.

some tips: this month's theme is elemental. so pretty much any plant creature could reasonably be considered part of the element of wood. pretty much any flying creature could be stretched to be elemental air. burrowing creatures could be elemental earth. etc.

[Mystic Muse]

just a reminder; you guys have 5 days (including today) to get a monster class up. pick something easy and get it up today or tomorrow.

easy in the case of a monster class just means low CR, since CR equals class levels. pick a CR 3 monster and then you only need to make a 3-level class.

some tips: this month's theme is elemental. so pretty much any plant creature could reasonably be considered part of the element of wood. pretty much any flying creature could be stretched to be elemental air. burrowing creatures could be elemental earth. etc.

Could a Pyroclastic Dragon be Elemental fire?

[Stycotl]

Could a Pyroclastic Dragon be Elemental fire?

'course it could.

[Togath]

since there is only one entry so far will the contest be extened a few more days? it seems...kinda odd to start the voting poll with only a single person to vote for

[Benly]

I've been fiddling with a bralani eladrin but I've got a fair bit on my plate lately.

[Stycotl]

since there is only one entry so far will the contest be extened a few more days? it seems...kinda odd to start the voting poll with only a single person to vote for

if there are 3 or more people that tell me that they have unfinished entries that can be done before the end of the month, i'll extend it. otherwise we'll just give the victory to soft serve and hope that more people participate next time.

[Togath]

I had been considering a winter wolf monster class.
edit: would +6 str, +2 dex, +4 con, -2 dex, +3 natural armor and a weak breath weapon be overpowered if spread out over 6 levels?(with other more stand class features such as skill and combat style[trip, disarm et cetera] boosts)

[Mystic Muse]

if there are 3 or more people that tell me that they have unfinished entries that can be done before the end of the month, i'll extend it. otherwise we'll just give the victory to soft serve and hope that more people participate next time.

I think that it would help to open the entry up more at the start. I'm betting at least a few people weren't thrilled with the original contest being creatures of elemental air and didn't even subscribe. We're going to need less restriction at the start If we want to build up a following.

Also, If I do win by default, don't bother making the drawing. I want the prize to be because I won, not because nobody else even challenged me within the allotted time.

[Stycotl]

I had been considering a winter wolf monster class.
edit: would +6 str, +2 dex, +4 con, -2 dex, +3 natural armor and a weak breath weapon be overpowered if spread out over 6 levels?(with other more stand class features such as skill and combat style[trip, disarm et cetera] boosts)

that seems reasonable. just remember, try to give it some unique abilities that fit with its nature, that will help to bring it up to a CR 6 monster.


I think that it would help to open the entry up more at the start. I'm betting at least a few people weren't thrilled with the original contest being creatures of elemental air and didn't even subscribe. We're going to need less restriction at the start If we want to build up a following.

all right; next month's contest will be a little looser themed.


Also, If I do win by default, don't bother making the drawing. I want the prize to be because I won, not because nobody else even challenged me within the allotted time.

sounds reasonable.

we have one possible for this month. any other takers?

[Benly]

we have one possible for this month. any other takers?

As I said I've been working on my bralani on and off. So with the winter wolf that's two.

[Togath]

The winter Wolf should be finished later tonight

[Hyudra]

I was halfway through a monster class for this competition when I decided the ideas at work would better suit a base class. I'm afraid no other ideas are springing to mind. I'll participate for the next one, though.

Rather than throw in a random idea, what about having people brainstorm ideas for the competition topic, and we'll decide by consensus/vote?

[Togath]

I've finished the winter wolf class, but I'm not sure how to add a picture, should I just go with a description of what it looks like, or should I go try find a picture for it?
edit; I posted the class but the table stretches the screen a little nevermind, I fixed the stretching problem

[Stycotl]

i've been away for a while on account of finals and a trip to california for a funeral. but i'm back now and will try to catch this project up.


Rather than throw in a random idea, what about having people brainstorm ideas for the competition topic, and we'll decide by consensus/vote?

i actually like that idea quite a bit and will include that in the voting thread.


I've finished the winter wolf class, but I'm not sure how to add a picture, should I just go with a description of what it looks like, or should I go try find a picture for it?

in order to add a pic, just use (img][/img) tags, replacing the parentheses with brackets. you put the image's www address in between the tags, requiring it to already be on the web somewhere. generally, it is better to link to your own image account somewhere, like deviantart, etc, so that you are more or less assured that it won't be taken down without your notice.

[Stycotl]

here is this month's contest, The Thing That Should Not Be. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11774708#post11774708)

[NineThePuma]

The phrasing of the first "rule" is such that you must build a class that BECOMES an Aberration, which does not fit the examples listed.

[Mulletmanalive]

I'm confused, should the first passage read:


...must possess the Aberation type or the (Augmented, Aberration) subtype...?

Or am I completely misconstruing something?

This is only after rereading it based on Soft Serve's entry, as originally, it seemed that you were required to create something with the (Aberration) subtype, which is just odd...

[Mystic Muse]

I assumed it was just a typo. Otherwise, that seems like a kind of odd requirement. "It can be anything but something that naturally is an aberration" doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

[Amechra]

I want to do the Slender Man; only problem is, it would be a 22-level class...

Ah, screw it, I'll do it.

[Mystic Muse]

I want to do the Slender Man; only problem is, it would be a 22-level class...

Ah, screw it, I'll do it.

Yay, I'll have some competition.:smalltongue:

Hope it goes well!:smallbiggrin:

[Stycotl]

The phrasing of the first "rule" is such that you must build a class that BECOMES an Aberration, which does not fit the examples listed.


I'm confused, should the first passage read:

?

Or am I completely misconstruing something?

This is only after rereading it based on Soft Serve's entry, as originally, it seemed that you were required to create something with the (Aberration) subtype, which is just odd...


I assumed it was just a typo. Otherwise, that seems like a kind of odd requirement. "It can be anything but something that naturally is an aberration" doesn't seem to make any sense to me.

correct. it was a typo. it was supposed to read [i]"aberration type or augmented subtype." fixed it. thanks for the heads up.

[Mystic Muse]

Oh, in the future Stycotl, something a friend of mine (Who can make themselves known if they wish) brought up, it might make more sense to focus on a certain concept than a specific creature type. Sort of like "Creatures of the Underdark" instead, since that may allow for more variation.

Just so that all the monster classes don't end up looking the same was the reasoning. They still might not end up looking the same, but it could definitely be a problem.

[Stycotl]

Oh, in the future Stycotl, something a friend of mine (Who can make themselves known if they wish) brought up, it might make more sense to focus on a certain concept than a specific creature type. Sort of like "Creatures of the Underdark" instead, since that may allow for more variation.

Just so that all the monster classes don't end up looking the same was the reasoning. They still might not end up looking the same, but it could definitely be a problem.

that's fine too. i don't have any plans to do it by creature type all of the time; notice that of the three choices i laid out, only one of them was by type, while the rest were by theme. this just allowed a broader (in my mind) list of monsters to choose from.

[Mystic Muse]

One thing I noticed with the FAQ. At the end, it still makes reference to the council. Probably better remove that so we don't confuse anybody new.

[Stycotl]

One thing I noticed with the FAQ. At the end, it still makes reference to the council. Probably better remove that so we don't confuse anybody new.

ah, thanks for catching that. if you have any other visual ideals for your pyroclastic dragon, especially for the shape of the head, number and type of horns (if any), etc, let me know.

[Mystic Muse]

Here's what I had in mind.

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb443/Zernobog888/Decorated%20images/paladin_5F00_motivational_5F00_2.jpg

[Owrtho]

Well, I got my entry up at last. I suppose it's about time. I'd been planning on doing so fairly early on and only just got reminded with the 1 day extension. That said, any thoughts or feedback is appreciated.

Owrtho

[Mystic Muse]

Glad you like it. Any chance you could let me know what problems you thought it had? When I'd finished with it I hadn't thought anything looked too off, though I'll admit I realized after the cut-off I should have mentioned some grow larger than others in the fluff, and that I should have given it the mostly flavour ability to detect aberrant energies nearby (most likely in the form of energy from the far realms).


Well, the sheer number of tentacles it gets could be a problem, if only because of the ability to focus them all into one area. I'd suggest putting a cap on the amount of tentacles you can have for a specific purpose. Also, potentially gaining the benefits of a ring for each tentacle seems a little obscene, but maybe that's just me.

Personally, I don't really like it requiring that the Ozodrin class be involved to get certain features. While I think that being an option isn't a problem, if I were reading over it as a DM, having to refer to something else as well would be kind of a pain. Maybe PM the maker of the Ozodrin and just ask if you can put said features right into the class, so long as you give them credit? Because as is, it's kind of a pain to find the tentacle augments.

Those are really my only critiques, other than take it through a spellcheck real quick, and just look for anything that's off. I can't think of anything right now though. Other than the part about the armor saying "Tipple" instead of "Triple"

[Owrtho]

Well, the sheer number of tentacles it gets could be a problem, if only because of the ability to focus them all into one area. I'd suggest putting a cap on the amount of tentacles you can have for a specific purpose. Also, potentially gaining the benefits of a ring for each tentacle seems a little obscene, but maybe that's just me.

You make a good point here, though it seems the issue would only really be with the tentacles for wielding weapons or for gaining tentacle attacks. Having the ability to see far without attacks or movement, or move far without sight or attacks seems fairly weak. I may well add a limit such as 3 max at first, +1 per 3 levels thereafter. As for the rings, looking back on it I expect you're right. I think I'll plan on adding a limit of around 6 rings (which would require fine manipulation tentacles), and say that while physically able to wear more they fail to take effect due to the magic already in effect from the other rings.


Personally, I don't really like it requiring that the Ozodrin class be involved to get certain features. While I think that being an option isn't a problem, if I were reading over it as a DM, having to refer to something else as well would be kind of a pain. Maybe PM the maker of the Ozodrin and just ask if you can put said features right into the class, so long as you give them credit? Because as is, it's kind of a pain to find the tentacle augments.

A valid point, it may well have been better to copy over the augment list. As for permission, I expect I can get that easily enough as the creator of that as well.


Those are really my only critiques, other than take it through a spellcheck real quick, and just look for anything that's off. I can't think of anything right now though. Other than the part about the armor saying "Tipple" instead of "Triple"

Huh, I didn't even know that tipple was a word... Darn spell check betraying me. Moreover, I thought I'd changed that to quadruple, when I remembered that small creatures get armour half price.

Owrtho

[Mystic Muse]

Glad I caught some stuff since it sounds like it helped.

As a side note, remember to vote for the next theme. Or submit one of your own. I'm curious what other people have in mind for next time around.

And thanks for the critique on the Kulumar.:smallsmile:

[Stycotl]

just a real quick note; owrtho, i don't see a reference for your creature class. if it is your own homebrew, label it as such. if it has an origin elsewhere, label that too.

and yes, methinks a halloween themed contest would be entirely appropriate. would be cool if all of the contests this coming month were halloween related.

[Owrtho]

just a real quick note; owrtho, i don't see a reference for your creature class. if it is your own homebrew, label it as such. if it has an origin elsewhere, label that too.

Ah, if you're referring to the monster, then yes, I did make it up for the purposes of the contest. I apologize for not mentioning that, I'm used to the other homebrew contests where one usually is making things up from scratch. I'll try to make sure I mention such things in future contests. As for right now, I'm holding off on editing my entry until after voting, so that the last edit note shows I haven't attempted to slip in any after the deadline changes.

Owrtho

[Stycotl]

Ah, if you're referring to the monster, then yes, I did make it up for the purposes of the contest. I apologize for not mentioning that, I'm used to the other homebrew contests where one usually is making things up from scratch. I'll try to make sure I mention such things in future contests. As for right now, I'm holding off on editing my entry until after voting, so that the last edit note shows I haven't attempted to slip in any after the deadline changes.

Owrtho

you can hold off if you want, but i don't think anyone sees it as a big deal. i certainly don't.

[Mystic Muse]

Is there some reason the contest winner and next competition hasn't been mentioned? Just real life stuff getting in the way Stycotl?

[Stycotl]

Is there some reason the contest winner and next competition hasn't been mentioned? Just real life stuff getting in the way Stycotl?

yeah, i'm having ridiculous computer problems, which have severely retarded my ability to get homework done for senior projects, which means that my world is disappearing into the crush of a colossal tsunami and i am about to be obliterated.
if you wouldn't mind tallying votes for the last contest and the theme for the next, i'd be ever-so-happy. if not, you guys are going to have to hold on for a few more days. either is fine with me. sorry about all of this.

[Mystic Muse]

yeah, i'm having ridiculous computer problems, which have severely retarded my ability to get homework done for senior projects, which means that my world is disappearing into the crush of a colossal tsunami and i am about to be obliterated.
if you wouldn't mind tallying votes for the last contest and the theme for the next, i'd be ever-so-happy. if not, you guys are going to have to hold on for a few more days. either is fine with me. sorry about all of this.

Next contest is up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217888)

[Owrtho]

As for right now, I'm holding off on editing my entry until after voting, so that the last edit note shows I haven't attempted to slip in any after the deadline changes.


Next contest is up. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217888)

Now that the voting is over, I made the minor edits I said I would. Hopefully these fix most of the problems that were had with the class.

Owrtho

[Mystic Muse]

Since Stycotl couldn't get the thread up in time (Due to no fault of his own) how about extending the deadline for this contest to the 31st, using the next ten days for voting, and take November off? I suspect a lot of people will be busy that month anyway, and it gives people more time for a topic that seemed to have a good amount of support.

Stycotl, after this month, I can take over creating the threads. If your computer problems look like they'll persist, or creating the threads is a burden for you, I'd be willing to take the responsibility instead. I can always just create classes in my own thread easily enough anyway.

[Mystic Muse]

From Folklore (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12307017#post12307017) New contest is up.

[NineThePuma]

How do we define folk lore, exactly?

[Hyudra]

Wikipedia's Folklore article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folklore).

More specifically, you'd probably want to use the ones that fall under folk narrative: fairy tales, fables and myths from various cultures.

I'd recommend, probably, that you justify it in the creator commentary for your monster entry.

[Mystic Muse]

How do we define folk lore, exactly?

Whatever you think fits really. Fairy tales could qualify, local legends, mythical monsters, ETC.

For example, want to do the Hopkinsville Goblin? You could do that.

There are plenty of legends about zombies, hags and Vampires. Those definitely qualify.

I think even beings like the Nemean Lion, the Roc, and Sirines would qualify.

[Mystic Muse]

Couple of Thrym hound critiques.

1. I'm unclear on what the total amount of natural armor it's supposed to get is.
2, The way growth is phrased, it could be interpreted that you get ability score boosts from the growth to large size.
3. Frigid stare is kind of weak and doesn't scale well.
4. I think a lot of players are going to forget counterstrike even exists. A static 1d8 cold damage won't be relevant for many levels.
5. You don't mention how often Ice storm is usable.
6. Soul rending cold has cold damage being half untyped and half cold, then going back to all cold damage.

[TheGeckoKing]

Couple of Thrym hound critiques.

1. I'm unclear on what the total amount of natural armor it's supposed to get is.
2, The way growth is phrased, it could be interpreted that you get ability score boosts from the growth to large size.
3. Frigid stare is kind of weak and doesn't scale well.
4. I think a lot of players are going to forget counterstrike even exists. A static 1d8 cold damage won't be relevant for many levels.
5. You don't mention how often Ice storm is usable.
6. Soul rending cold has cold damage being half untyped and half cold, then going back to all cold damage.

1. I shall clear that up.
2. Oops.
3. I think I'll just do a more linear progression then.
4. In that case, I'll do something weird for the damage.
5. Once per encounter should do it.
6. That's not what I mean. Fixing!

Thanks for the critiques. :smallsmile:
How's the class, btw? Good? Bad? Interesting?

[Mystic Muse]

1. I shall clear that up.
2. Oops.
3. I think I'll just do a more linear progression then.
4. In that case, I'll do something weird for the damage.
5. Once per encounter should do it.
6. That's not what I mean. Fixing!

Thanks for the critiques. :smallsmile:
How's the class, btw? Good? Bad? Interesting?

It's interesting, but it feels like it needs that little more something to truly stand out.

And you're welcome.:smallsmile:

[AugustNights]

Working on an entry; The Rimefire Eidolon.
Work is slow, but I should have something up by the 19th.

EDIT: Posted a monster. It didn't seem to bump the thread though. Odd.

EDIT(18/1/12): Avoiding a double post, figured I'd toss a (P)EACH in.

Thrym Hound
Personally wouldn't give anything all good saves and a good Bab progression. I know it's a melee driven build, and the monster has really good saves, and that it isn't that big of a deal, still not something I (personally) am very comfortable with.

I know craft is almost always a class skill, it's just an odd thing to imagine without hands.

That is some natural armor increase, has that become standard as of late? 3/2 progression will over come Bab by a fair sight, so this creature will be incredibly hard to hit with non-touch attacks.

Ability increase: Seems like a non-standard way of doing things. Usually the monsters (in my way past experience) tend to get ability increases that reflect a DAD like monster class. Charisma is the modifier for its DCs, making this monster class relatively TAD (Strength, Wisdom, Charisma), why not change the save-DCs to Wisdom. Pumping Charisma on a frigid wolf beast doesn't quite seem thematically accurate. Also why have you decided to make the Ability Increases Optional, as in you can choose which ability at each level? (That is a question, as in I'd like to know what your motives are, because I am a really curious person, and maybe there is a good reason for it that I'm not seeing.)

Frozen Savagery: Spelling nit pick "At 2nd level, the Thrym Hound deals an extra points of cold damage with each of its natural attack equal to its Wis modifier."

Frostbite Howl: You may consider throwing in a brief nod towards the use of the intimidate skill in the description. Also "let loose a cold howl of terror to terrify his opponents..." is a bit redundant, isn't it?

Growth: Should probably be noted on the Class chart at L.8 as that it's based on Thrym Hound level and not HD.

Frigid Stare: No limit on uses per day? At HDx1d4, your getting some pretty good damage. As that this is an area effect, using a standard action makes this better than even a full attack action. This would quickly become the aggressive action of choice, until Cold Resistance grew to high (or was immunity/damage-hp). This seems a bit over powered to me. Perhaps limit it to Wisdom modifier uses per day?

Counterstrike: Seems a bit wonky, would also slow down combat I think. What type of attack is it? Melee? Why does it gain +20? Why not forgo the attack roll, as that +20 is kind of considered a sure(ish) thing. Also, why Cold damage = to AC? Seems odd, what are your thoughts here?

Northern Chill: 1d2 rounds of stun every 1d4 rounds when they successfully strike? Better than Stunning Fist by a fair shot. Keeps an enemy needing to make a save or be locked up 60% of the time.

Blizzard Assault: Rather than saying that the Thrym Hound gets Whirlwind attack as a Feat with special conditons, why not say something like: "At 8th level, the Thrym Hound strikes like a blizzard - chilling and unrelenting, from all sides. When the Thrym Hound uses the full attack action, they can give up their regular attacks and instead make two claw attacks at their full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach."

Soul-Rending Cold: You may stipulate here that this damage, while being untyped and ignoring resistances/immunities/damage-hp qualities, still deals additional damage to creatures vulnerable to cold.

Looks pretty fun, a nice Winter-Wolf's Big Bad Brother sort of thing.

[TheGeckoKing]

Thrym Hound
Personally wouldn't give anything all good saves and a good Bab progression. I know it's a melee driven build, and the monster has really good saves, and that it isn't that big of a deal, still not something I (personally) am very comfortable with.

Well, I know it looks weird, but trust me. All-good saves won't blow up the world (See: Monk).


I know craft is almost always a class skill, it's just an odd thing to imagine without hands.


No no, I just had a brain fart.


That is some natural armor increase, has that become standard as of late? 3/2 progression will over come Bab by a fair sight, so this creature will be incredibly hard to hit with non-touch attacks.

Along with the saves, the high AC is kinda the OTHER main quality of the Thrym Hound. See, I was going by Saph's nice little explanation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228293) on appropriate AC per level, but I forgot about AC boosts from sources other than armour. 1 + 2*HD seems better in retrospect.


Ability increase: Seems like a non-standard way of doing things. Usually the monsters (in my way past experience) tend to get ability increases that reflect a DAD like monster class. Charisma is the modifier for its DCs, making this monster class relatively TAD (Strength, Wisdom, Charisma), why not change the save-DCs to Wisdom. Pumping Charisma on a frigid wolf beast doesn't quite seem thematically accurate. Also why have you decided to make the Ability Increases Optional, as in you can choose which ability at each level? (That is a question, as in I'd like to know what your motives are, because I am a really curious person, and maybe there is a good reason for it that I'm not seeing.)

It was supposed to have it's DC's based on Wis. Why did I write Cha?! :smalleek:
Anyway, I made the ability increases optional because I couldn't decide to increase Str or Con, so I just decided "Eh, let 'em pick".


Frozen Savagery: Spelling nit pick "At 2nd level, the Thrym Hound deals an extra points of cold damage with each of its natural attack equal to its Wis modifier."

Gotcha.


Frostbite Howl: You may consider throwing in a brief nod towards the use of the intimidate skill in the description. Also "let loose a cold howl of terror to terrify his opponents..." is a bit redundant, isn't it?

I don't know what you're talking about. :smallamused:


Growth: Should probably be noted on the Class chart at L.8 as that it's based on Thrym Hound level and not HD.

Snazzy.


Frigid Stare: No limit on uses per day? At HDx1d4, your getting some pretty good damage. As that this is an area effect, using a standard action makes this better than even a full attack action. This would quickly become the aggressive action of choice, until Cold Resistance grew to high (or was immunity/damage-hp). This seems a bit over powered to me. Perhaps limit it to Wisdom modifier uses per day?

See, what's happened here is that I made it like a breath attack, but forgot the 1d4 round cooldown. 'Cause I'm silly.


Counterstrike: Seems a bit wonky, would also slow down combat I think. What type of attack is it? Melee? Why does it gain +20? Why not forgo the attack roll, as that +20 is kind of considered a sure(ish) thing. Also, why Cold damage = to AC? Seems odd, what are your thoughts here?

The idea with the attack with the +X to the attack roll was pilfered straight from the monster itself, but I see what you mean. Possibly just a reflex save? The Cold Damage = AC works under the assumption that the AC is coming from the frozen spines, and so the bigger and thicker the spines are, the more damage they do.


Northern Chill: 1d2 rounds of stun every 1d4 rounds when they successfully strike? Better than Stunning Fist by a fair shot. Keeps an enemy needing to make a save or be locked up 60% of the time.

WHY CAN I NOT REMEMBER TO ADD SIMPLE THINGS. Have added that if you make the save, you're immune for 24 hours.


Blizzard Assault: Rather than saying that the Thrym Hound gets Whirlwind attack as a Feat with special conditons, why not say something like: "At 8th level, the Thrym Hound strikes like a blizzard - chilling and unrelenting, from all sides. When the Thrym Hound uses the full attack action, they can give up their regular attacks and instead make two claw attacks at their full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach."

Ya'know, that works too.


Soul-Rending Cold: You may stipulate here that this damage, while being untyped and ignoring resistances/immunities/damage-hp qualities, still deals additional damage to creatures vulnerable to cold.


Gotcha.


Looks pretty fun, a nice Winter-Wolf's Big Bad Brother sort of thing.

Glad to hear. As a question, any other abilities you might like to see?

[AugustNights]

Well, I know it looks weird, but trust me. All-good saves won't blow up the world (See: Monk).
Truth.


Along with the saves, the high AC is kinda the OTHER main quality of the Thrym Hound. See, I was going by Saph's nice little explanation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228293) on appropriate AC per level, but I forgot about AC boosts from sources other than armour. 1 + 2*HD seems better in retrospect.
That is a nice little explanation.




See, what's happened here is that I made it like a breath attack, but forgot the 1d4 round cooldown. 'Cause I'm silly.
Ah, well that makes for quite the difference indeed!


The idea with the attack with the +X to the attack roll was pilfered straight from the monster itself, but I see what you mean. Possibly just a reflex save? The Cold Damage = AC works under the assumption that the AC is coming from the frozen spines, and so the bigger and thicker the spines are, the more damage they do.
WoC are silly.
I see where you are coming from, but not all of the hound's AC will be from natural armor, especially if they get some crazy AC boosting items. For "lashback" I tend to do 1d4 damage/4 HD. Which isn't much, but that's for No-save, even if the target missed/or hit "lashback." So 1d4 damage per 2HD may not be bad, especially with a Reflex for half.
*Shrug*


WHY CAN I NOT REMEMBER TO ADD SIMPLE THINGS. Have added that if you make the save, you're immune for 24 hours.
The devils are in the details, and the demons are in the big picture. Fortunately I have a cold iron long sword and some quicksilver.
Anyhow, looks good. Still strong, but much less combat breaky,


Glad to hear. As a question, any other abilities you might like to see?
Uhm, I don't know.
Oh wait!
A good one would be to give them the ability to ignore difficult terrain caused by Ice or Snow. I mean, they will be hunting in that sort of stuff all the time.
Just a thought.

[TheGeckoKing]

WoC are silly.
I see where you are coming from, but not all of the hound's AC will be from natural armor, especially if they get some crazy AC boosting items. For "lashback" I tend to do 1d4 damage/4 HD. Which isn't much, but that's for No-save, even if the target missed/or hit "lashback." So 1d4 damage per 2HD may not be bad, especially with a Reflex for half.
*Shrug*


See, that sounds so much simpler.


Uhm, I don't know.
Oh wait!
A good one would be to give them the ability to ignore difficult terrain caused by Ice or Snow. I mean, they will be hunting in that sort of stuff all the time.
Just a thought.

It is done!
I shall try to get PEACHing on the Rimefire Eidolon, but glancing over it initially, there's nothing major that sticks out.
EDIT: Initial things, such as spelling corrections;


Divinity Remembered (Sla): ......The saves for these spell like abilities are 10 +1/2 the Rimefire Eidolon's HD + its Charisma modifier......


Icing Touch (Su): ......The Rimefire Eidolon may deliver this cold damage with an attack as a standard attack action if it so chooses......[/B]

I think you mean "as an attack, as a standard action....", but I could be wrong.


Flurry Leap (Na): At second third level the Rimefire Eidolon the ability to make short flying leaps, as if it were a flying creature. By spending a swift action the Rimefire Eidolon may grains gain a fly speed equal to twice its base land speed, with a maneuverability of Good until the end of its turn. The Rimefire Eidolon must end its turn on a solid surface.


Rimefire Storm: The Rimefire Eidolon's rimefire bolt spreads out, into several beams of energy. The Rimefire Eidolon may make a single attack roll against any enemy within range of its Rimefire Bolt, with a total number of enemies equal to half the Rimefire Eidolon's ?________?. Enemies that are struck by this attack roll suffer damage as if struck by a Rimefire Bolt.

Other than that, my only quibbles are;
Improved/Greater/Dark Rimefire Bolt: You need to clarify the whole swift action to use thing. Is the action expended upon use, or as a sort of charged effect? Unless it's meant to have uses/day, you'll want to say Improved Rimefire Bolt is at-will. Lastly, it would be nice if the ability's damage scaled beyond the class levels, seeing as it'll be the main damage source of the Eidolon for a long while to come.
Ooo, and a feat like Extra Invocation that lets you pick another enhancement to add.
Other than that, fantastic class! :smallsmile:

[AugustNights]

It is done!
Excellent!


[PEACHES]

There is quite a difference between 10 and 0, thank you for the catch!

I seem to have left out the word "touch" before "attack" on Icing Touch. Quite the difference there too. Thanks again!

And singular tense! Curse you tenses!

"Applying this enhancement to a Rimefire Bolt requires a swift action"
Improvements to Rimefire Bolts only appy to one use of the bolt, and require a swift action. Edited Improved Rimefire Bolt to stipulate Charisma Bonus uses per day (min 1).


Lastly, it would be nice if the ability's damage scaled beyond the class levels, seeing as it'll be the main damage source of the Eidolon for a long while to come.
Actually, there is a way to scale the Rimefire Bolt's damage: base attack bonus. See it's made as an attack action, rather than a standard action.
Perhaps as an attack action the Rimefire Eidolon is better off taking levels in a TOB or Martial class rather than a Warlock. Yes, Hexblade, actually, may be very thematically appropriate....


Ooo, and a feat like Extra Invocation that lets you pick another enhancement to add.
I was thinking of something like that.
I'll toss some feats on, humm...


Other than that, fantastic class! :smallsmile:
Thanks!

[AugustNights]

Well... submissions have been in for 8 days, in the Community Monster Class Competition V: It Came From the North (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227724).

So, I vote Thrym Hound.

[Mystic Muse]

Leaving the voting open until February First.

If anybody has any ideas for the next month's theme, now is a good time to mention them.

I'll mention this to a few friends tomorrow so that we can get more than one vote.

[Hawkflight]

I'm gonna vote Thrym Hound. Can't have an Arctic setting without wolves now can we, The Day After Tomorrow? :smallannoyed:

No, but seriously. Thrym Hound.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm gonna vote Thrym Hound. Can't have an Arctic setting without wolves now can we, The Day After Tomorrow? :smallannoyed:

No, but seriously. Thrym Hound.

Alright.

Unless anybody has any suggestions, how about "It came from Below" for February's competition?

[Hawkflight]

Actually, I was going to vote Cyberpunk Abomination.

[Mystic Muse]

Actually, I was going to vote Cyberpunk Abomination.

I....I honestly can't think of any monsters like that in D&D off the top of my head. Have any examples?

[AugustNights]

Below seems kind of vague.
What do you mean by it?

[Mystic Muse]

Below seems kind of vague.
What do you mean by it?

It's kind of intended to be vague to allow for more stuff. Off the top of my head, anything that lives in the underdark, anything that's something you would find crawling in the ground, extremely upsized or not, evil outsiders, ETC.

Cyberpunk abomination would certainly be interesting but I'm not sure what all fits for that in D&D. There are probably a few monsters, but it ffeels a little too narrow? At least, I can't think of anything off the top of my head in any source that would apply. Unless Inevitables count.

However, if somebody else doesn't bring up an idea in the next hour and a half, technically I have to go with that one according to the rules.

[Hawkflight]

Well, there's Warforged, and the various golems.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, there's Warforged, and the various golems.

Alright. That'd be kind of hard, but I guess it works for a theme month? I'm just not sure how many people would actually end up making something like that.

[Hawkflight]

You mean you're not sure how many people would play a mechanical humanoid dragon with laser fists? :smalltongue:

[Trobby]

IDEAS!

-Psuedo-Dragons: "Dragons" that aren't the "True" Dragons.
-Japanese Folklore: Mythical beings from the Orient. Bonus points if you don't make a Kitsune. (nothing against Kitsune, but they just seem to be the go-to thing for eastern culture themes)
-Our Vampires are Different!: Vampires, any kind of vampire you like.

[Lycan 01]

I nominate...

Norse Mythology: Creatures, entities, and abilities from old Norse mythology. Odin, Loki, Fenrir, monsters like giants and barrow wights, and a few twists on current things - berzerkers could shapeshift into bears, for example, according to some legends.

Medieval British Literature: Beowulf, The Wanderer, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight... lots of stuff to work with.

Beneath the Waves: Merfolk, sharks, kraken, giant enemy crab, maybe even Cthulhu. There's a lot of scary stuff in the sea...

[Mystic Muse]

Alright, after reducing things down to the ones I thought would work best, then rolling a die because I couldn't decide, the result is Beneath The Waves.

[AugustNights]

Killer. I've had an idea for a turtle race kicking around for a while I'd like to stat out. This will be a great opportunity.

Right. Established monsters is more of the goal of this project. Not that homebrew ones aren't welcome, I'd just like to stick to the whole "Every Monster in D&D" available sort of thing.

[TheGeckoKing]

I think I'll smash together a Deep One race, possibly as the Kuo-Toa's ancient and magically advanced ancestors that hid away in hibernation and didn't degenerate into the mess Kuo-Toa are today.

[Mystic Muse]

Geckoking, your entry won, so you get to choose a CR 12 or less monster for me to make. If you want.

Just follow the rules for choosing something I won't find squicky.

[TheGeckoKing]

Geckoking, your entry won, so you get to choose a CR 12 or less monster for me to make. If you want.

Just follow the rules for choosing something I won't find squicky.

Is a 7 level progression of the Myconid (MMII) O.K? Junior Worker to Sovereign, lots of spores to use, seems like something fun to make.
It's that or the Adamantine Horror :smallbiggrin:

[Mystic Muse]

Is a 7 level progression of the Myconid (MMII) O.K? Junior Worker to Sovereign, lots of spores to use, seems like something fun to make.
It's that or the Adamantine Horror :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, that's fine. Could be worse. You could have asked for Flumphs.:smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

Alright, new thread will be up tomorrow. I'll probably just choose something random unless somebody has any particular ideas they really want.

If you're going to vote for one that previously failed, I beg of you, please have some idea of a monster class you'll contribute before voting for it.

As for the winner, I'm going to roll a D6 since it was a tie and choosing would make me feel terrible. 1-3, Styx Dragon, 4-6, Water Elemental.

I could also use a different type of die if people consider the result unsatisfactory, or I can use a different method.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12823529&postcount=4393

1. Styx Dragon.

I get to ask myself to create one monster class of my choosen within my parameters.

Yay me.:smalltongue:

If you have any other requests Geckoking and/or Hyudra, I'll definitely take them into consideration.

GeckoKing, sorry that the Myconid has taken a while to create. I'll try to get it up this month since I'm not doing any particular theme in my thread this month.

[TheGeckoKing]

If you're going to vote for one that previously failed, I beg of you, please have some idea of a monster class you'll contribute before voting for it.

Hrrrm. I have a better idea.


If you have any other requests Geckoking and/or Hyudra, I'll definitely take them into consideration.

Here's four competition themes - Spawn of the Pit, One Level Wonders, It Had To Be Snakes, Heavenly Host.



GeckoKing, sorry that the Myconid has taken a while to create. I'll try to get it up this month since I'm not doing any particular theme in my thread this month.

No problems. You take all the time you need. :smallsmile:

[Mystic Muse]

Hrrrm. I have a better idea.



Here's four competition themes - Spawn of the Pit, One Level Wonders, It Had To Be Snakes, Heavenly Host.

Ooooh. Definitely One level wonders.

Though, I actually meant any monster class requests.




No problems. You take all the time you need. :smallsmile:

Thanks.

[TheGeckoKing]

You actually went with the One Level Wonders? :smalleek:
Well, i'll smash up a Kaorti class then. Or Shadar-Kai. Or Thri-Kreen. I dunno. :smallconfused:

[Igneel]

I'm really tempted to try my hand at a Monster Class, and hopefully a 'One level' class will be somewhat easier then trying to come up with 20 levels. Now to just figure out something that hasn't been done yet that would be interesting enough to do...

[Mystic Muse]

You actually went with the One Level Wonders? :smalleek:

I have ideas in mind, alright?

Besides, if you thought it was a bad idea, you shouldn't have suggested it.:smalltongue:

[Hyudra]

Tricky thing about one level wonders is that you want to make it appealing without making it a must-have dip for X class or archetype.

A lot harder than, say, a four level class where you can have the really juicy, flavorful class features delayed to level 3-4 of the class.

[Mystic Muse]

Tricky thing about one level wonders is that you want to make it appealing without making it a must-have dip for X class or archetype.

True.

Alright, Deanno, I hope you're monitoring this thread, because I'm about to critique the Drow a bit.

1. The Spell resistance is really weak. 5+HD isn't going to prevent much. While maybe not at first level, the minimum it should be is 11+HD at some point so that it can resist the average roll, especially considering all the ways there are to boost caster level.
2. Shadow Weave Casting is really overpowered. There's no limit, so literally everything the Drow is casting will have +5 Caster level and +2 DC. This bypasses the Drow's natural spell resistance on anything but a one. If given the choice, I could see just about any spellcaster who relies on spell level (Such as blasters) taking a level of Drow, just because of this ability.

I'd change it to maybe +2 Caster level or +1 DC.

[DeAnno]

True.

Alright, Deanno, I hope you're monitoring this thread, because I'm about to critique the Drow a bit.

1. The Spell resistance is really weak. 5+HD isn't going to prevent much. While maybe not at first level, the minimum it should be is 11+HD at some point so that it can resist the average roll, especially considering all the ways there are to boost caster level.
2. Shadow Weave Casting is really overpowered. There's no limit, so literally everything the Drow is casting will have +5 Caster level and +2 DC. This bypasses the Drow's natural spell resistance on anything but a one. If given the choice, I could see just about any spellcaster who relies on spell level (Such as blasters) taking a level of Drow, just because of this ability.

I'd change it to maybe +2 Caster level or +1 DC.

Shadow Weave Casting is limited per day to 1 + 1/(4 HD), just like the other two choices. I think its actually a pretty weak choice to give up a level of casting for the Drow racial class even as it stands, but at least with this they get a couple really powerful spells in addition to your stat bump and weak SR. Right now at level 20 you have Shadow Weave Casting 6/day, SR 25, and +2 Int/Cha, at the cost of a level of spells. I think in most situations I'd prefer the spell level, but racial classes are typically not good for casters.

The SR isn't great, but since the level is giving the Drow power and a stat bump I didn't want to make it too strong. 5 + HD is actually only 4 points weaker than standard Drow 11 + HD, since these Drow will have 2 more HD at any ECL than normal Drow. That means you can recover "old Drow" quality SR at the cost of a feat (The base SR strength is better than what is on Githzerai/Githyanki which have HD + 5, effectively ECL + 3).

[Mystic Muse]

Shadow Weave Casting is limited per day to 1 + 1/(4 HD), just like the other two choices. I think its actually a pretty weak choice to give up a level of casting for the Drow racial class even as it stands, but at least with this they get a couple really powerful spells in addition to your stat bump and weak SR. Right now at level 20 you have Shadow Weave Casting 6/day, SR 25, and +2 Int/Cha, at the cost of a level of spells. I think in most situations I'd prefer the spell level, actually, but racial classes are typically not good for casters.

Totally missed that somehow. My mistake.



The SR isn't great, but since the level is giving the Drow power and a stat bump I didn't want to make it too strong. 5 + HD is actually only 4 points weaker than standard Drow 11 + HD, since these Drow will have 2 more HD at any ECL than normal Drow. That means you can recover "old Drow" quality SR at the cost of a feat (This SR strength is actually better than what is on Githzerai/Githyanki which have HD + 5, effectively ECL + 3).

I'd say have the SR sort of bump itself up a bit later. Like 11+HD at 10 HD or something. Having to spend two feats to get your Spell resistance to 2 above par just seems really painful.

[DeAnno]

Totally missed that somehow. My mistake.
I'd say have the SR sort of bump itself up a bit later. Like 11+HD at 10 HD or something. Having to spend two feats to get your Spell resistance to 2 above par just seems really painful.

It is fairly weak, though SR raising nonlinearly with HD goes pretty hard against general 3.5e type mechanics, which I like to avoid. I think I'll split the difference by raising it to 9+HD (which is a 35% spell failure chance from an equal leveled caster with no +CL/SR buffing, more than double the old 15% @ 5+HD) and adding a Drow Power choice to emphasize SR with. This incidentally brings the Drow back even with the old version in terms of SR by ECL. If other people feel that the racial level is too strong, speak up and I'll consider ratcheting SR back down a bit.

[NineThePuma]

I have a question.

The Monster Class Project has traditionally avoided having "Base Racial Traits" in favor of a "Body of X" feature.

Would me breaking the norm in this manner violate the base rules of the competition?

*is thinking about doing a Lizard Folk class*

[Mystic Muse]

I have a question.

The Monster Class Project has traditionally avoided having "Base Racial Traits" in favor of a "Body of X" feature.

Would me breaking the norm in this manner violate the base rules of the competition?

*is thinking about doing a Lizard Folk class*

I'd personally say that no, it would not violate it, though I see no particular reason to deviate from it.

And I'm glad this month's contest is bringing people out of the cracks to make classes.:smallsmile:

[NineThePuma]

It's one of the things that rubs me wrong. I decide to play, say, a Salamander, I have "Salamander" as a class. But I don't have any racial traits. The base racial traits addition will stop the first level from being stupidly front loaded. And free up space from the Body of X class feature.

[DeAnno]

I was facing a similar choice, and I gave drow base racial traits. A race actually tends to have a lot more stuff attached to it than fits in a normal level, so it felt right to give them balanced LA +0 traits, and then create a single balanced class level to augment those traits. I think this is more apparent in one shot wonders because all the little necessary pieces of futz that define someone's race are awkward to fit into the same level where you're trying to do interesting things too.

[NineThePuma]

Currently caught between Lizardfolk, Gnolls, and Mineral Warrior. Decisions Decisions.

EDIT: Decided on Lizardfolk.

[Igneel]

Okay, I have made my decision and am going with Petals (MM3). Will possibly post when I get back from work.

[NineThePuma]

I don't think I need to say it, but I threw the Lizardfolk class up earlier. Will totally PEACH in return for PEACHes.

[DeAnno]

On lizardfolk:


Mind of the Quanak: The Quanak are the Lizardfolk who awaken their latant psionic potential. They increase a mental ability score of their choice by 2. Additionally, they gain 2 bonus power points, and gain "Inertial Armor" as a power known. Their manifester level is equal to their hit dice, and they receive bonus power points based on the mental ability score they increased when they took this class.

This is sort of broken, since the bonus power points you get are better than a manifester level. A lizardfolk could essentially trade one manifester level to get bonus PP twice, which is pretty nonfunctional. An ability score of 30 at ML 20 is 100 Power Points; this is far more than the ~37 gained at 20th level for a Psion/Wilder normally (plus the fact their boosted stat is also causing bonus PP, twice). Adding to that, Inertial Armor is something that you probably will only cast a couple times per day (usually once past the first few levels), so its actually just the sort of thing Psi-Like Abilities are for.

If you want something to lessen the sting of going full caster with a lost level, a +2 boosted mental stat, an Inertial Armor PLA at HD Manifester level 3/day, and 1 extra power point per hit die would end up being more reasonable (1 PP/HD along with the boosted stat's natural extra bonus PP just about covers lost power points due to the missing level).

[NineThePuma]

-Darkness: As a swift action, you can produce a Darkness effect centered on you within a 20 foot radius emanation. This effect moves with you and cloaks the affected area in magical shadow. Any bright light in the area is reduced to shadowy illumination, and all creatures within the area have partial concealment (20% miss chance), even from creatures that can see normally in mundane darkness. You, other drow, and any creatures able to see in magical darkness ignore this concealment. Any light created by any spell with spell level higher than half your hit dice overrides all these effects while within the Darkness' area. Darkness lasts for one minute per character level, or until you dismiss it as a swift action.

-Shadow Weave Casting: As a free action when casting any spell you can imbue it with extra power from the shadow weave. The spell's caster level is increased by +5, and its save DC (if it has one) is increased by +2. You can only use Shadow Weave Casting once per spell you cast.

-Spell Deflection: As an immediate action, you can fortify your natural defense against magic. Your Spell Resistance increases by +8, and any spell which has you as a target and is negated by your Spell Resistance is turned back targeting the original caster. Turned spells use the same values for caster level and save DC as the original spell (though you make new attack rolls or caster level checks if they are required), and the original spell still affects any other targets it had as normal. Area spells and effect spells can't be turned, but your increased SR may still protect you from their effects. Spell Deflection lasts for one round, or until you voluntarily lower your Spell Resistance.I'd make dismissing Darkness a free action, rather than a swift action.

Shadow Weave Casting seems particularly powerful. Pair it with something like Blasphemy or Word of Chaos and laugh.

Spell deflection is pretty cool, but I'd change its name in order to not confuse someone who would relate it to the Deflect Arrows; Spell Reflection sounds like a good name. Also, SR 17 + HD seems really really high.The fact that you can make it SR 21 + HD with a feat seems a bit broken. I'd recommend turning down the feat a bit.

[DeAnno]

I'd make dismissing Darkness a free action, rather than a swift action.

Shadow Weave Casting seems particularly powerful. Pair it with something like Blasphemy or Word of Chaos and laugh.

Spell deflection is pretty cool, but I'd change its name in order to not confuse someone who would relate it to the Deflect Arrows; Spell Reflection sounds like a good name. Also, SR 17 + HD seems really really high.The fact that you can make it SR 21 + HD with a feat seems a bit broken. I'd recommend turning down the feat a bit.

Darkness free dismissal sounds fine.

Shadow Weave Casting really needs to be strong is the thing, since only full casters will want it and they're giving up a spell level for it,and a caster level (so effectively its only +4 CL beyond what they deserve). The Blasphemy +5 abilities are troublesome though, and general damage ramping at low levels with the +4 CL is an issue too. Maybe I'll tone it down slightly to +4 CL/+2 DC?

SR 17+HD isn't as high as you think. Competent spellcasters will see that you are a Drow, realize you have SR, and either throw Orbs or BFC or Summons or cast Assay SR as a Swift and be swinging with CL+10+1d20 vs your 17+HD (70% success at par). The weakness of spell (re)deflection is it will often not be useful against intelligent opponents. All the other abilities are active and let you do something to mess around with the battle, Spell Reflection relies on your opponent playing into your hands. The same is to be said about the feat, which is why I felt that +4 was fair.

There is precedent for "deflect" meaning negate and not send back though, so I'll change it to reflection.

[Igneel]

Finally got what I have for my Petal up for viewing pleasure. As always, I'm willing to give out PEACHes for PEACHes.

[Mystic Muse]

Winterking, 2 things I noticed.

1. The Thri-Keen doesn't mention any armor profociencies or lack of armor proficiencies. I'm aware that as a DM I could safely assume it has none, but better safe than sorry, and just about every entry I know of mentions usable armor
2. It mentions Damage reduction as per the Petal ability. I'm guessing this was just a copying error since I didn't see any damage reduction.

Geeze, there's a lot if participation this month.

Please, feel free to mention ideas that will bring you guys back next month.

[Igneel]

Geeze, there's a lot if participation this month.

Please, feel free to mention ideas that will bring you guys back next month.

I was actually going to participate in the last contest, but failed to get my stuff done on time since I found the contest during its last week. My biggest problem is just remembering to check once this one is over.

I'm in the frame of mind that I will try to make anything, just gotta find material.

[Mystic Muse]

One more day before the submission for the contest ends.

Remember, once voting begins, you can vote for your own monster, but only if you truly believe it to be the best monster.

Since we have a lot of participants this month, I'm going to hope I don't have to vote at any point.

Now would be a good time to discuss next month's theme.

[Mystic Muse]

Sorry, I know it's a day late.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237085 New thread is up.

[Mystic Muse]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13022212#post13022212 and this one is even later. I think somebody else should take over, at least for a while.

[Igneel]

Totally claiming the Flame Draconian from Dragonlance. Just fyi since Redspawn Arcaniss was taken already.

[Frog Dragon]

HELLFIRE ENGINE! :smallmad:

Yeah, totally claiming that thing.

Edit: When is this contest ending? The post states until 20th of march, but that date is kind of long past.

[Mystic Muse]

HELLFIRE ENGINE! :smallmad:

Yeah, totally claiming that thing.

Edit: When is this contest ending? The post states until 20th of march, but that date is kind of long past.

I meant to write the 20th of April. I mostly copy/paste these things so sometimes I accidentally miss details like that.

[Igneel]

HELLFIRE ENGINE! :smallmad:

Yeah, totally claiming that thing.


Aww HELL NO! :smallbiggrin:
That was one of my other ideas I thought about doing, but decided that it would be too complicated for me. :smalltongue: Good luck coming up with more abilities/features.

[Frog Dragon]

Well, I already have the first 11 levels so..

What I'm actually kind of struggling with is how to balance the rapid increase in Engine Points with the static costs of the Engine powers. This mostly happens because anyone playing a Hellfire Engine will quickly figure out that str is by far the most important attribute, and thus start pumping it to no end.

[Mystic Muse]

Guys, just so you know, you're really not supposed to post unfinished monsters in the thread.

[Frog Dragon]

Well, it just says "basic beastie already done" but that "it's okay to tweak". I already have all the important parts in place, I just need to extend it to level 19.

[Igneel]

Well, I already have the first 11 levels so..

What I'm actually kind of struggling with is how to balance the rapid increase in Engine Points with the static costs of the Engine powers. This mostly happens because anyone playing a Hellfire Engine will quickly figure out that str is by far the most important attribute, and thus start pumping it to no end.

So basically its what Oslecamo had with the Tarrasque, save his was Str/Con focused?

Yeah I can see the problems that can grow with the Engine Points. As of now it gets +10 to Str just for 19 levels of the class, plus a Tome and Enhancement item this goes to +21, and level ups +5 at 20th for +26. So a 18 starting would have 46 Str for a total of max 38 Engine Points without other shenanigans.

Not exactly sure if there is really a way to fix that, as its a mechanic in some ways very similar to psion power points.

[Frog Dragon]

It doesn't have quite that many. A level 20 Hellfire Engine with 46str would have 28 engine points. Still a lot though.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, it just says "basic beastie already done" but that "it's okay to tweak".

Hmmm.

That really should be a lot clearer than what it is. I'll probably modify it in some way before the next contest.

[Igneel]

It doesn't have quite that many. A level 20 Hellfire Engine with 46str would have 28 engine points. Still a lot though.

D'op! Just noticed the 'Half HD' bit, so yeah, your right.

[Frog Dragon]

Woo finished.

The Special Line is just a long column of "The Engine Turns"... :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Just realized a little hickup in applying metabreath weapons to the Exhalation of the Devil. They tend to have constitution prerequisites. This is a construct. :smallyuk: Just going to remove the whole "metabreath feat" thing. Given all the Engine Powers it gets, it isn't unreasonably hampered by this.

[Igneel]

Edit: Just realized a little hickup in applying metabreath weapons to the Exhalation of the Devil. They tend to have constitution prerequisites. This is a construct. :smallyuk: Just going to remove the whole "metabreath feat" thing. Given all the Engine Powers it gets, it isn't unreasonably hampered by this.

There is a single Metabreath feat that was printed called 'Breath of Unlife' in Dragons of Faerun that required a Cha score and Undead type to allow a undead dragon access to Metabreaths as if its Cha is its Con score. Just fyi if you really want metabreaths.

Edit: Not meaning that they could take it, but as a suggestion of something to look at for a basis for your own metabreath feats.

[Igneel]

To give an eye-over on your class Igneel, my main gripe is the glut of per day abilities. There's lots of them, and once they're all used up you've lost a lot of your tricks. On top of that, my other main gripe is the pitfall I fell into - there's nothing that really jumps out. To make a quick comparison, the Hellfire Engine has a ton of active abilities that a player's going to look forward to, and abilities that recharge over time in a quick fashion.
However, I will say that you did make a class that IS well-built if not glitzy, and would be certainly useful in the role of a melee brawler. :smallsmile:


Yes, that is mostly because that is how the actual race is, and I didn't really think that the class I was making should be much more powerful then the original (which is stupid looking back but still). It comes with a certain number or Rages, Fireballs, etc per day and is treated as stacking its levels (or HD in the case of the original) with Barbarian levels which seemed to be the most obvious progression afterwards.
I will admit to the falling into that 'pitfall', and both regret and accept my decision. Looking back I'm kinda debating with myself on making at least its Fireball ability #/encounter instead of #/day. Oh well, live and learn right?


See this bit in the first post?

Originality - The monster class should be unique. It should stand out from the rest, as a class.
Playability - The monster should allow for fluid, engaging, amusing and uninterrupted play at the table.
Balance - The monster should be balanced enough that it's not going to hold the group back or dominate everything without even trying, both overall and at a given stage in its development.
Elegance - The page which details the monster for the player should look good and be easy to understand.
Flavor - Last but certainly not least, we want to preserve the flavor and the atmosphere of the monster the monster class is based off of.
?

If I were to take off major marks for the Flame Draconian, it would be in the Originality department, with a few marks off in playability and elegance. What do I mean by this?

Originality: Almost none of the abilities are unique to the class, for one thing. Rage, breath weapon, uncanny dodge, fireball, flight, more fireballs, spell resistance... I get the distinct impression that I could more or less put this class together using some creative multiclassing and itemization for a given PC.

The exception? Death Throes, which poses some Playability issues in that you have to die to get a use out of it, and it's going to be pretty rare that you can use it and not wipe out your party. Remember that monster classes are primarily for players, to be used as PCs.

Elegance? It's minor, I can hardly fault you for it, but it's fairly clear english isn't your first language. Some sentences read awkwardly ("Being born not as a dragon should be, but rather as a magical process of turning one dragon egg into a completely different creature has rendered your death to have a violent outcome.") - I wouldn't take off marks for this, but there's also an ambiguity in that your stat boosts are mixed up/scattered. You have one +2 to Str at 1st level (Flame Draconian Body) and then another entry for Str/Con boosts starting at 4th.

The final point, and this is where the Hellfire Engine (and to a lesser extent, Redspawn Arcaniss) stood out - is that a class should feel like a class, with a defined role. The Flame Draconian has rage & melee stats for some damage in melee, flame breath on occasion and then fireballs beyond that - beyond a general 'deals damage' explanation, it doesn't really convey a solid idea of how it would play at the table, there's no real synergy between the independent aspects of the class, and it would be hard to say what class you'd go into after you were done.

All that said, it isn't bad. I can come across really harsh, and your work doesn't deserve harsh. It's decent. Rather good for a new-ish monster classer. It just doesn't scream 'excellent' or make me wonder what it would bring to the gaming table in terms of new experiences and interactions in/out of combat. The hellfire engine does, and that's why it got my vote.

Oh don't apologize for being 'hard' on me, I need it if I'm to get better at homebrewing. Decided it would be better to continue the conversation in the Discussion thread as my response doesn't help with the voting. Anyways... Onto your points;

Originality: I do not blame you for taking the majority of my 'points' from this category, as those abilities are really the only things being a Flame Draconian offers. Comparatively the Vapor (Green) gets virtual spellcasting for the Mystic class (a Dragonlance base divine spellcasting class), Lightning (Blue) stacks with Paladin levels, Frost (White) gets nothing, and Venom (Black) gets Sneak Attack. When they don't come with material that sounds interesting, you generally either don't think of anything new or you do in my experience. Sadly I didn't think of anything.

Playability: I also understand this, which is why I removed the need for an actual feat printed in Dragonlance material by adding it to the class feature. Not only that but I made it so that the damage isn't locked in at 6d6 at first level to 20th. Honestly I debated about adding this in, but considering that is a key feature in all the Draconians it would be like taking the breath weapon away from a dragon.

Elegance: Roflmao. Yet more proof that I'm far from being as good of a writer as my friends and family claim I am. I'm a born and raised American, so I guess you can say that the saying "Americans butcher the English Language" applies to me. :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin: Oh that's what I get for not going back and double checking my fluff writing.
As for the stat boosts, I admittingly didn't think that a grand total of +4 Str and +2 Con hurt in 8 levels as much as the +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con from the original.

Well I thank you both all the same in any case, and can only try to learn from all of this. I don't blame you for not voting for me, (both times) because I know that both of my classes weren't as well done as they could be. Just gonna have to look forward to the next one and do better (and type better English). :smallsmile:

[Hyudra]

Yes, that is mostly because that is how the actual race is, and I didn't really think that the class I was making should be much more powerful then the original (which is stupid looking back but still). It comes with a certain number or Rages, Fireballs, etc per day and is treated as stacking its levels (or HD in the case of the original) with Barbarian levels which seemed to be the most obvious progression afterwards.
I will admit to the falling into that 'pitfall', and both regret and accept my decision. Looking back I'm kinda debating with myself on making at least its Fireball ability #/encounter instead of #/day. Oh well, live and learn right?

Keep in mind that the monster class doesn't have to draw directly from the base monster. You can expand on it, offer further options or take the core theme and build it into more of a 'class'.

The Minotaur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10295137&postcount=275) I put together a while back is one example of the latter case. It's also a fairly good example in that it's a 'brute', but there's a distinct playstyle at work.


Oh don't apologize for being 'hard' on me, I need it if I'm to get better at homebrewing. Decided it would be better to continue the conversation in the Discussion thread as my response doesn't help with the voting. Anyways... Onto your points;

Originality: I do not blame you for taking the majority of my 'points' from this category, as those abilities are really the only things being a Flame Draconian offers. Comparatively the Vapor (Green) gets virtual spellcasting for the Mystic class (a Dragonlance base divine spellcasting class), Lightning (Blue) stacks with Paladin levels, Frost (White) gets nothing, and Venom (Black) gets Sneak Attack. When they don't come with material that sounds interesting, you generally either don't think of anything new or you do in my experience. Sadly I didn't think of anything.

It happens. Rather than make something less original, I might instead recommend asking in the thread or getting in contact with someone (ie. me) for brainstorming.

Were I to tackle the same class, I might change the rage into something thematically similar, but distinct.

Imagine the Flame Draconian with 'Burning Rage'. It's always on, and how it works is that at the end of each combat round he takes or deals damage (melee or fire damage only), he gains a Burning Rage buff, cumulative over multiple turns, boosting his stats up to X times (depending on level/con mod/cha mod, perhaps). He can spend these stacks for fireballs, firebreath, bonus effects on his fire damage abilities (set enemies on fire, scorch them so they're more vulnerable to future damage, etc) or specialized melee attacks (claw through their armor, claw at each opponent in reach, a gliding reave attack, etc). Conversely, he can just let them accumulate. Enemies can recognize what's going on & try to avoid combat or take cover for a round so the stacks dissipate (perhaps he loses all/½ stacks if he doesn't deal/take damage for a round). Boom, major melee presence.

Customize/tweak as you see fit to the class. You want to promote throwing oneself into the thick of battle? Perhaps you instead gain 1 rage stack per enemy within 10' of you at the end of each combat round. Perhaps you can voluntarily lose all rage stacks to heal yourself, ensuring you can thrive in the thick of it.

And if you have any left over when you die, you explode, damaging enemies (not allies) in range.


Elegance: Roflmao. Yet more proof that I'm far from being as good of a writer as my friends and family claim I am. I'm a born and raised American, so I guess you can say that the saying "Americans butcher the English Language" applies to me. :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin: Oh that's what I get for not going back and double checking my fluff writing.
As for the stat boosts, I admittingly didn't think that a grand total of +4 Str and +2 Con hurt in 8 levels as much as the +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con from the original.

Oops. Guess you're not ESL after all. My bad. I might've been thinking of someone else when I thought back to other posts on GitP I'd sene.

As far as the stats - the problem isn't the # you get. It's the fact that they're all over the place (you get stat bonuses from two different class features, flame draconian body & attribute bonus, when it would be simpler to just have them all under one).

[Frog Dragon]

Ah the joys of finding typos after the contest has ended.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't recall who requested the Adamantine Horror as the monster class to have me make, but just FYI, it's up in my thread.

Frog Dragon, you get to choose one for me to make.

Sorry that I have to let somebody else take the reins for a while regarding this.

[Frog Dragon]

Preferably, Hashalaq Quori (Secrets of Sarlona)

That, or Tsucora (Eberron Campaign Setting).

I like Eberron. :smallsmile:

Or would the possession shtick count as mind-altering?

Edit: If the quori are a no-go, how about the Helmed Horror from Lost Empires of Faerun? Perhaps melded together with the Battle Horror?

[Mystic Muse]

Preferably, Hashalaq Quori (Secrets of Sarlona)

That, or Tsucora (Eberron Campaign Setting).

I like Eberron. :smallsmile:

Or would the possession shtick count as mind-altering? Possession definitely counts.



Edit: If the quori are a no-go, how about the Helmed Horror from Lost Empires of Faerun? Perhaps melded together with the Battle Horror?

I'll give it a look anyway.