I want a girlfriend to talk to.

[Doomboy911]

Yeah I know it's a lame idea to openly ask but I'm trying something new. When someone asks if I have a girl in my life I want to say yes and when they ask if I'm dating them I want to say yes for once. So I'm just asking for a friend, maybe someone like me who wants to believe they're actually with someone and "normal" like everyone else. I'm not asking for love just someone who shares my interests.

To answers some questions. Yes I have talked to girls before I've sort of dated some before (far too complicated to explain here) and it's been about a year since I've dated anyone. I'm not asking for sex or anything I'm uninterested in that. I don't intend to move out and live with you or anything unless we actually like each other enough.

I'm almost nineteen, I spend a good deal of time on the internet. I love Regular Show and Adventure Time. I love the works of Arthur Conan Doyle and Markus Persson (Notch). If there's a girl out there who has similar interests do me a favor and post. Maybe we don't date but we could have something in common to talk about.

[AsteriskAmp]

That's called a screen-girlfriend around were I live. Not a great idea, not probably even good since it will make a really convoluted situation.

If you just want her for the social component than I don't really know what to say, if you want her as someone to talk to, I believe a psychologist is more fit for that role since he/she could give you actual human contact ( and help you solve issues in the way).

[Doomboy911]

I am not crazy enough to need a psychologist.

[AsteriskAmp]

I am not crazy enough to need a psychologist.

That is a misconception, psychologist are not only for the crazy, regular people need routine check ups, and some regular people want to improve their mental condition or situation so they visit them.

I do not mean that you are crazy but that if you really have a pressing need to routinely discuss with someone, a psychologist helps a lot (since they also are able to aid you in some of your social issues).

[Moff Chumley]

I am not crazy enough to need a psychologist.

Broski, if you're posting this kinda thread, you could use a psychologist. I'm not "crazy" by any stretch of the imagination, and I see a shrink every two weeks on the dot. It's done me immeasurable amounts of good and I'd recommend it to anyone.

[Doomboy911]

I'm well aware of that. I meant (well I was informing the people I consider myself crazy) I'm not crazy enough to spend a large sum of cash for someone to talk to. Than again I am asking for a girlfriend maybe I am that crazy.

[slaydemons]

That is a misconception, psychologist are not only for the crazy, regular people need routine check ups, and some regular people want to improve their mental condition or situation so they visit them.

true story bro, I went to one for several years.... though I think its because I was depressed but I saw one after that as well. Most of the time if you get a good one they don't just say "how does that make you feel." hell the last one I went to let me play video games with him and was just like "how was your week." and I just told him

[Gaelbert]

I think you could find a lot of help in the Relationship thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199281)
And let me agree with Moff Chumley, there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeing a psychologist. Psychologists are not just for crazy people, and they can provide profound help for the type of problems you seem to have.

[Doomboy911]

I must wonder if I post a thread asking for a psychologist will I get a bunch of people recommending a girlfriend?
Just kidding. All I'm wondering is if there's a girl out there I could spend time with. Also I do not require relationship advice as I lack one. I want to be in a relationship.

[ZombyWoof]

This thread amuses Da Woof :smallamused:

Seriously though, go find a girl.

[AsteriskAmp]

I'm well aware of that. I meant (well I was informing the people I consider myself crazy) I'm not crazy enough to spend a large sum of cash for someone to talk to. Than again I am asking for a girlfriend maybe I am that crazy.
It's a very logical need which you have, a close social bond, linked to your inner-pressing sociological partnership need. Seeing a psychologist could do you little harm (the monetary issue is one of the least ones in fact since most job-places today's have psychological screenings and well, everything has underlying tendencies which you may not notice.)

What you have here is natural of the development of the socio-affective part of adolescence. What you are saying here is your way of coping with a hard pressing need of recognition, both by your peers and by the Universe, you feel the need to be noticed and to know at least someone knows about you, and you want something to be more than just another guy around there.

A psychologist will help you thousand times better than anyone in here could if only by virtue of seeing you in the eyes and telling you what your main issue is and telling you that the first part of the process is recognizing that this would just be a lenitive and not an actual solution.

[Doomboy911]

Good as a comedian/writer/sexiest man alive runner up it's nice to know what makes people laugh. How about that airline food?

[Whiffet]

I must wonder if I post a thread asking for a psychologist will I get a bunch of people recommending a girlfriend?
Just kidding. All I'm wondering is if there's a girl out there I could spend time with. Also I do not require relationship advice as I lack one I want to be in a relationship.

What, you think you need a psychologist? Nonsense! You just need a girlfriend.

But in all seriousness, you want a girlfriend... so you can say you have a girlfriend? Because everything else you said just sounds like regular friendship to me.

[Doomboy911]

It's a very logical need which you have, a close social bond, linked to your inner-pressing sociological partnership need. Seeing a psychologist could do you little harm (the monetary issue is one of the least ones in fact since most job-places today's have psychological screenings and well, everything has underlying tendencies which you may not notice.)

What you have here is natural of the development of the socio-affective part of adolescence. What you are saying here is your way of coping with a hard pressing need of recognition, both by your peers and by the Universe, you feel the need to be noticed and to know at least someone knows about you, and you want something to be more than just another guy around there.

A psychologist will help you thousand times better than anyone in here could if only by virtue of seeing you in the eyes and telling you what your main issue is and telling you that the first part of the process is recognizing that this would just be a lenitive and not an actual solution.

As flawed as it may sound I don't wish to know what's wrong I want someone to date. Yes I am aware that a psychologist doesn't pick out what's "wrong" with me. I try not to validate myself by other people's view. It may sound hard to believe but dating someone is just want I want to do.

[Doomboy911]

What, you think you need a psychologist? Nonsense! You just need a girlfriend.

But in all seriousness, you want a girlfriend... so you can say you have a girlfriend? Because everything else you said just sounds like regular friendship to me.

Well I want this friend to be a girlfriend so when I say I think she's pretty it isn't weird.

[AsteriskAmp]

As flawed as it may sound I don't wish to know what's wrong I want someone to date. Yes I am aware that a psychologist doesn't pick out what's "wrong" with me. I try not to validate myself by other people's view. It may sound hard to believe but dating someone is just want I want to do.

The issue is this. While you could very well get a date, a RL one in fact, unless you solve the underlying issue it will come to bite you back, HARD.

To put it in perspective, you aren't the only one, and I sympathize with you because I've been there some time ago (ironical as that sounds at my age), it doesn't really work even though you believe it does, and it can cause serious harm to one if not both sides, and the effects are crippling to both (my case was rather disturbing so I'd much rather not detail it), unless you get to the core (which may be different for you) you can't really have a healthy relationship. Dating is not a cause, it's a consequence, some have an inherent social need, others have a paternity want, some see it as a way of recognition, others use it as a parental substitute (getting damn Freudian in here), but the thing is that unless you know the true reason you will be in serious danger, find the need and deal with it and be true at least to yourself in why you are doing it.

[Doomboy911]

So after I see this psychologist and get my issue dealt with would it be okay to have a girlfriend?

[AsteriskAmp]

So after I see this psychologist and get my issue dealt with would it be okay to have a girlfriend?
I believe yes, it would be perfectly healthy if you understood your motives and accepted them.

-I am not a psychologist or a medical professional BTW; my opinion is merely based on the advice I got from those and some rudimentary applications of my knowledge of psychology.

[Doomboy911]

You're not the only one to deal with me in a psychological sense. I have spent many a restless night dealing with my brain.

[Fawkes]

Well I want this friend to be a girlfriend so when I say I think she's pretty it isn't weird.

Buddy this is gonna be weird no matter how you swing it.

[Doomboy911]

Yes but at least it won't be weird because she's just a friend. It's my attempt to make things as not as weird as possible.

[AsteriskAmp]

Yes but at least it won't be weird because she's just a friend. It's my attempt to make things as not as weird as possible.

I believe it would make it weirder if worded that way.
At that age it's perfectly normal to have female friends and it would only open the way for more uncomfortable questions if worded such as girlfriend.

[Seffbasilisk]

A/S/L?

Just kidding. I'm a dude.

In all seriousness, while they may have a point in saying a shrink could do you some good, I get how frustrating it is, to have a chick be the first one to post in response to this, and be all "Go see a professional."

An internet girlfriend, is like an ejection seat for a helicopter. Good on paper, tricky in actuality. Generally, making it work, involves quite a good bit of immaturity and carefully cultivated ignorance. That being said, I had a few when I was younger, then moved on to "real" girls.

Last time I hit up a girl I was in an "internet relationship" with, she didn't remember who I was, was living in Australia, was engaged, and had a parrot.

I, at the time, had already chalked up an ex-fiancee. I wish I could tell you I remember her name (the internet girl, not the ex.)

Head's up though? If you're doing it to be able to say you have a girlfriend? If you add the qualifier 'internet' before girlfriend, it sounds depressingly lame, and may provoke them to imply quite heavily that you need to see a shrink.

Then where will you be?!

Edit: Excuse me, I judge people based on their avatars, but pixie up there, apparently claims to be a Dude.

[Doomboy911]

All I'm saying is I want is a girl who's more than just a friend.

[Doomboy911]

A/S/L?

Just kidding. I'm a dude.

In all seriousness, while they may have a point in saying a shrink could do you some good, I get how frustrating it is, to have a chick be the first one to post in response to this, and be all "Go see a professional."

An internet girlfriend, is like an ejection seat for a helicopter. Good on paper, tricky in actuality. Generally, making it work, involves quite a good bit of immaturity and carefully cultivated ignorance. That being said, I had a few when I was younger, then moved on to "real" girls.

Last time I hit up a girl I was in an "internet relationship" with, she didn't remember who I was, was living in Australia, was engaged, and had a parrot.

I, at the time, had already chalked up an ex-fiancee. I wish I could tell you I remember her name (the internet girl, not the ex.)

Head's up though? If you're doing it to be able to say you have a girlfriend? If you add the qualifier 'internet' before girlfriend, it sounds depressingly lame, and may provoke them to imply quite heavily that you need to see a shrink.

Then where will you be?!

I'm kind of hoping the relationship will develop enough that we no longer need to use the internet qualifier. If it doesn't than at least I had fun with someone.

[Whiffet]

I don't know much about psychology (only took an easy general psych class in high school to fill out electives, the only part of which I remember was wondering what the teacher had against skittles candy) but I can say that you should get advice on how to go about this from a real one instead of people on the forums.

If you want my non-psychological advice, get out and be around people. You can't truly replicate the experience on the internet, and you never know where you'll meet your next friend. Hang out places you're likely to meet people with similar interests. Some of those these people will be girls, and that's normal. Don't worry about a true girlfriend unless you really see her as more than just a friend.

Besides being quite fulfilling, you'll be building connections that will help you get what you want later in life. :smallwink:

[Seffbasilisk]

If you only know her online, it'll always have the internet qualifier.

Go out, do something you love in a public place or with a group.

I'm assuming you're old enough to take candy from people in vans? Cool, now you're old enough to break another of your parent's rules.

TALK TO STRANGERS.

About anything!

Try to find some commonality, and from there, segway into something they seem interested in. Occasionally throw in a radical difference of opinion. Don't forget to smile, and when they make a joke, feel free to laugh.

[Doomboy911]

I have friends, I have a place I visit and I have best friends. I'll try to ask in a better way. Is there a girl out there who has similar interests and would be interested in talking with me. Also while you're all here would you people who posted here would you like to be my friends? You seem to care about my well being.

[Souhiro]

That is a misconception, psychologist are not only for the crazy, regular people need routine check ups, and some regular people want to improve their mental condition or situation so they visit them.

Well, Psychologists are for the ones who can afford them, and they will "Help" only the ones that can pay the bill. To this date, at least ten friends of mine, familiars and classmates had been frecuenting the company of one of these... They can't do more good to anyone that looks for a friend, that a prostitute to one who looks for love, or looks for booze for resolving their errors in life.

But for what you have asked... have you tried to volunteer in social works, helping others, and that kind of things? It REALLY helps, to tou and to others, and a lot more than laying on a couch, tell your story to the psycho for an hour, pay the bill, and hear "We are making progress, come back in two weeks".


Sorry for my awful grammar, English isn't my first language.

[Doomboy911]

Is it arabic because I need a guy for something.

[Seffbasilisk]

I knew a prostitute who was looking for love. I gave it to her free of charge, and she had no idea how to deal with it.


As for you Doomboy, sure, so long as you can handle it. I tend to be brutally honest, alternately passionate and distant, and likely a number of other negative things that are escaping me at this second.

Being my friend is like a complex skill check. Tricky as all hell, but if you succeed... Well. Everything's pretty friggin' awesome then.


I do have some grounding in psychology, and the easiest way to deal with a girl, is to find some situation that 'forces' you two together for a period of time. In highschool, that was bribing/flirting with/convincing the guidance councilor to match as much of your schedule as you could to hers, now it's more complicated.

Gym time, morning runs...

Library.

Find a ritual, find one that matches it.

Remember, the human brain connects repetition with importance.

[Doomboy911]

Don't worry I'm a bard, diplomacy checks are my thing.

[AsteriskAmp]

I have friends, I have a place I visit and I have best friends. I'll try to ask in a better way. Is there a girl out there who has similar interests and would be interested in talking with me. Also while you're all here would you people who posted here would you like to be my friends? You seem to care about my well being.
It's The Playground, everyone cares for mostly everyone's else well being, there is even a Depression thread for those looking for emotional help. And as a matter of principle, most people are looking to be friends with others around here.

Well, Psychologists are for the ones who can afford them, and they will "Help" only the ones that can pay the bill. To this date, at least ten friends of mine, familiars and classmates had been frecuenting the company of one of these... They can't do more good to anyone that looks for a friend, that a prostitute to one who looks for love, or looks for booze for resolving their errors in life.

But for what you have asked... have you tried to volunteer in social works, helping others, and that kind of things? It REALLY helps, to tou and to others, and a lot more than laying on a couch, tell your story to the psycho for an hour, pay the bill, and hear "We are making progress, come back in two weeks".


Sorry for my awful grammar, English isn't my first language.
I respectfully disagree in part with your statements. Psychology is not for the money (or should not be) but for the treatment and help (most schools and colleges have available psychologists for "free"). Psychology is inverse to your proposal, it's not the cheap fix but the actual cure. The thing is that they try to help you, but there is so much they can do, if you are open to them and actually talk to them about wanting to fix your issue they'll help you, but they are not Dr. Lightman, they cannot read completely through you or detect all of your lies. As for progress, my psychologist for example is damned brutally honest and tells me we haven't made progress because I'm acting like a freaking oyster and tells me that if I don't make progress he will just drop my case and recommend me a psychiatrist.

I however completely agree with the social labour idea.

[Juggling Goth]

On the one hand, it's good to be self-aware and honest about what you want. Kidding yourself leads to badness. I'm a big fan of negotiation and honesty.

On the other, you have to be aware that this girlfriend will also be a person with her own unpredictable wants and needs. Relationships do weird stuff. (True story: I started out with a friend with benefits and got a wife.) While it's good to know what you want, it's a terrible idea to have this specifically-shaped hole in your life and go looking for someone to fill that exact gap. They won't fit and trying to make them fit will just cause resentment.

[Doomboy911]

Yes but I lack a place to do social work. Also since I've never had a job getting a psychologist on my case isn't going to be long term. I don't want someone who's out to deal with my issues.

[Moff Chumley]

It sounds like you want someone to talk to. That's what psychologists tend to be good for.

[LCR]

So after I see this psychologist and get my issue dealt with would it be okay to have a girlfriend?


Alright, you do NOT need to see a psychologist about this.*
You're eighteen, you're not in a relationship, yet you want to be. That's normal.
It's definitely not something you need to see a psychologist about.
Instead, be proactive about it and meet new people. Take some classes at community college, something that is likely to have a lot of girls in it. Those kind of things.



*However, if you or your friends think that your mental health is lacking besides the fact that you're eighteen and really want a girlfriend (really, this is PERFECTLY normal and will sort itself out), please see your GP, who will assess you and refer you to a specialist, if needed (and only then).



It sounds like you want someone to talk to. That's what psychologists tend to be good for.

Or, um, friends?
Yes, psychologists are usually nice people to talk to, but they're also crazy expensive, costs, which need to be covered by either yourself or worse, your health insurance.
Also, every hour you spend with the psychologist because he's such a nice guy to talk to and all, is an hour he can't spend treating someone with an actual disease.
Please remember that there are finite resources in the health care system and that those need to be allocated efficiently.
Thus, see your GP if you're actually in need of specialist care.

[Asta Kask]

I think serpentine has a list of tips in her signature.

[candycorn]

If I may offer a bit of gentle advice... Most people want to feel special, wanted. It sounds like you're no exception.

The same is true of women. And, as efficient as you may find an open call for dating, there lacks a personal quality that really lets someone get to know you.

It's like... cafeteria food, as opposed to cooked-to-order. People want something that is tailored to them. When you realize that the woman you're looking for wants someone who notices her, and is interested enough to ask her specifically for that bond, you'll find more success.

In order to find that common ground, and that interest, you need to talk to her... And yes, you still don't even know who she is, so talk to more than one (just don't try to hide dating more than one. Relationships are 90% trust. If you lose someone's trust, it's almost impossible to get back). And when you find that woman who interests you, TELL HER.

Yeah, I know that opens up the possibility of rejection, but there's no shame in failure. Failure teaches more than success. If you're too afraid of failure to try, the end result is the same. If you're not willing to risk failure, you'll never truly achieve success.

Go out there. Get messy. Get hurt. Learn something. In the end, it will make you a better person, because you'll know the pitfalls to avoid, you'll appreciate the person that you spent all that work finding, and when you find someone, it will change you in a real and meaningful way.

[The Succubus]

An internet girlfriend, is like an ejection seat for a helicopter. Good on paper, tricky in actuality.

One is considerably more hazardous to your health than the other. The jury will get back to you on which one it is.

[rakkoon]

So after I see this psychologist and get my issue dealt with would it be okay to have a girlfriend?


I must wonder if I post a thread asking for a psychologist will I get a bunch of people recommending a girlfriend?

Hey, making a girl laugh means you're 50% there. And with this kind of wit I see no problems in your near future :smallcool:

[Castaras]

If I may offer a bit of gentle advice... Most people want to feel special, wanted. It sounds like you're no exception.

The same is true of women. And, as efficient as you may find an open call for dating, there lacks a personal quality that really lets someone get to know you.

It's like... cafeteria food, as opposed to cooked-to-order. People want something that is tailored to them. When you realize that the woman you're looking for wants someone who notices her, and is interested enough to ask her specifically for that bond, you'll find more success.

In order to find that common ground, and that interest, you need to talk to her... And yes, you still don't even know who she is, so talk to more than one (just don't try to hide dating more than one. Relationships are 90% trust. If you lose someone's trust, it's almost impossible to get back). And when you find that woman who interests you, TELL HER.

Yeah, I know that opens up the possibility of rejection, but there's no shame in failure. Failure teaches more than success. If you're too afraid of failure to try, the end result is the same. If you're not willing to risk failure, you'll never truly achieve success.

Go out there. Get messy. Get hurt. Learn something. In the end, it will make you a better person, because you'll know the pitfalls to avoid, you'll appreciate the person that you spent all that work finding, and when you find someone, it will change you in a real and meaningful way.

^ This, pretty much.

RE: Internet Girlfriends: Only worth it if you have a plan to be together in the near (months - year) future. Just the same as with any sort of Long Distance Relationship. And you're unlikely to find one just by asking. Needs this "talking" thing, and "getting to know each other" thing. The sort of thread you're posting here is probably more suited to a dating site, anyway, and would likely get you better responses more suited to what you want. :smallsmile:

[Mauve Shirt]

Dude, instead of posting an ad, try and be friends with some girls. Don't be That Guy or anything, just PMing randoms chicks til one decides she likes you, but if you see someone post about one of your interests and want to get to know her, get to know her.

Internet boy/girlfriends are possible, but difficult. I've been dating mine for almost 2 years, we've seen each other 4 times IRL.

[Kislath]

Forget this place; if you want a girlfriend, go to Craigslist. You'll be hooked up by sundown.

[Rezby]

Forget this place; if you want a girlfriend, go to Craigslist. You'll be hooked up by sundown.

Beat me to the punch. As soon as I saw this thread I was scrolling down to see if anyone had posted it before me. I was going to recommend going here (http://eharmony.com), but craigslist is close enough.

Sorry I can't offer anything else constructive that hasn't already been said here before.

[CrimsonAngel]

Well I want this friend to be a girlfriend so when I say I think she's pretty it isn't weird.

I tell my friends they're pretty all the time. :smalltongue:
Now to go back to reading through the thread~

[Artemis97]

Right... I don't know why people are suggesting you need professional help just because you feel the need to be close to someone. Isn't having someone we can trust something everyone wants? That's what friends, and yes, girlfriends are for.

Now, to get a girlfriend. Ask a girl out. It's simple as that. Do you like one of your friends (who also happens to be a girl)? Ask her out. Meet a nice girl at the bookstore/comic shop/whatever ask her out for coffee or something. Do something that indicates you're interested in her. Sure, there's a chane you'll be rejected, but there's a chance she'll say yes. And if you don't ask, she can't say yes.

Believe me, there are girls out there just waiting for a guy, just like you're wanting a girlfriend. Geeky ones, too. I went through school single because no one had the courage to ask one little question. Sure its intimidating, but the worst thing she can say is no, and you can always try again. No one's going to bite your head off for asking them out.

That's just my 2cp. Good luck with it.

[Knaight]

I went through school single because no one had the courage to ask one little question. Sure its intimidating, but the worst thing she can say is no, and you can always try again. No one's going to bite your head off for asking them out.

Including you apparently. Its the 21st century, you can ask people out while being female.

[ZombyWoof]

I went through school single because no one had the courage to ask one little question. Sure its intimidating, but the worst thing she can say is no, and you can always try again. No one's going to bite your head off for asking them out.
Ladies,

The single most attractive thing you can do for a guy is ask him out instead. Society builds up this whole thing where women just seem to "go along" with being asked out and are super passive but I guarantee that most men don't really want a passive girl who's going to make him do everything and make every move. Showing that you're interested enough to take the chance and jump at an opportunity is a huuuuge plus.

That is all,

Da Woof

[Moff Chumley]

I will be the third to jump on this. A (female) friend asked me a while ago, "wouldn't it be emasculating to be asked out by a girl?" to which I responded "maybe to some people, but for most of us it'd be a gift from the heavens". She asked me out the next week. And, er, I awkwardly declined it, so that story hardly ends on an upbeat note, but the point is! There's nothing wrong with asking a guy out.

[Seffbasilisk]

I looked at Craigslist (I've traded services there, and occasionally gone through missed connections, but never really seen it as a dating site.)

All the chicks there, seem to want something. And I don't mean that special someone. Stuff like "I need a place to live." "I'm looking for motorcycle lessons." etc.

eHarmony...well...I once made a profile there, for a LARP character. A sci-fi psionicist, who lives on a space station...and he got 28 matches last time I checked, with his 'picture' being a sketch a friend drew on looseleaf.


I'd give a +1 to the bookshop idea. This way 1) you know she can read. 2) you know she can operate a door. 3) you have some idea of her interests. 4) there are many ways to strike a conversation. 5) you have something to hide behind as you peer at them, trying to figure out which one you want to approach.

[TheLaughingMan]

A nerd wants a girlfriend?!

Lucky you, I have a good shrink on speed dial.

[ZombyWoof]

I'd give a +1 to the bookshop idea. This way 1) you know she can read. 2) you know she can operate a door. 3) you have some idea of her interests. 4) there are many ways to strike a conversation. 5) you have something to hide behind as you peer at them, trying to figure out which one you want to approach.

#2 is more important than you might think... I've had plenty of girls stand next to a door staring at me expectantly. I never realized being female lent itself to such gross incompetences!



A nerd wants a girlfriend?!

Lucky you, I have a good shrink on speed dial.
You mean the OP didn't weird you out?

[Seerow]

#2 is more important than you might think... I've had plenty of girls stand next to a door staring at me expectantly. I never realized being female lent itself to such gross incompetences!


I always thought holding a door open for a girl was just common courtesy, and generally expected. I'm amazed to find out it is in fact a incompetency that causes it!

[Moff Chumley]

Seeing as GitP hosts a wide variety of ages and cultures, what may be perfectly valid for one party is not necessarily the case for the next.

[Savannah]

I...I don't get it. I mean, I get wanting a girlfriend, that's totally reasonable. But this:

I'm not asking for love just someone who shares my interests.

Someone who shares your interests who you talk with but don't love is a friend, not a girlfriend. So I don't get what you're asking for here :smallconfused: Just a friend? Then why limit yourself to half the population? A girlfriend? Then why say you're only asking for a friend?

And I challenge the assumption that one must have a girlfriend/boyfriend to be "normal":

When someone asks if I have a girl in my life I want to say yes and when they ask if I'm dating them I want to say yes for once. So I'm just asking for a friend, maybe someone like me who wants to believe they're actually with someone and "normal" like everyone else.

If you want a girlfriend/boyfriend, great! If you don't, there's nothing wrong with that and you shouldn't feel pressured to have one. (Not really directed at you, Doomboy, just making a general statement.)

[Giggling Ghast]

Looking for a girlfriend, eh? Well, for the meager fee of $100,000, I could build you a robotic girlfriend that is guaranteed to share all your interests!

I'm not going to lie to you: it's going to resemble a stack of boxes topped by an ice cream bucket with a face drawn on it. But I guarantee* it will fill that void in your life!

* Not a guarantee.

[Morph Bark]

Join a dating site.


And make sure it is you joining it, not someone else signing you up for it as a joke. That happened to me and now I end up with messages in my inbox every other week or so.

[ZombyWoof]

Looking for a girlfriend, eh? Well, for the meager fee of $100,000, I could build you a robotic girlfriend that is guaranteed to share all your interests!

I'm not going to lie to you: it's going to resemble a stack of boxes topped by an ice cream bucket with a face drawn on it. But I guarantee* it will fill that void in your life!

* Not a guarantee.
Hey candlejack, I'm upset that your post didn't end

[Kensen]

It baffles me that so many people suggested seeing a shrink as the best/first solution. :smalleek: Maybe it's a cultural thing. It's obvious the OP needs 1) the social skills needed for getting to know girls and 2) a place/community where he can meet girls, whether online or IRL. A shrink cannot give him either of these things.

The best thing you can do is hang out with friends who know girls, or failing that, talk to girls on dating sites/social networking sites. I've made many female friends that way.

Anyway, good luck!

[Seerow]

It baffles me that so many people suggested seeing a shrink as the best/first solution. :smalleek: Maybe it's a cultural thing. It's obvious the OP needs 1) the social skills needed for getting to know girls and 2) a place/community where he can meet girls, whether online or IRL. A shrink cannot give him either of these things.

I think the reason was not so much the desire for a girlfriend so much as his reasons for it, and his way of going about it. Plenty of single guys out there are looking who don't need shrinks. A guy who goes to the forum who wants a girl he can talk to so he can call her his girlfriend and tell people he's got one.... well that sounds like something that most people outgrow by the time they hit puberty, and he probably could benefit from talking to a professional.

[Moff Chumley]

I think the reason was not so much the desire for a girlfriend so much as his reasons for it, and his way of going about it. Plenty of single guys out there are looking who don't need shrinks. A guy who goes to the forum who wants a girl he can talk to so he can call her his girlfriend and tell people he's got one.... well that sounds like something that most people outgrow by the time they hit puberty, and he probably could benefit from talking to a professional.

My thoughts exactly. Most or many of the single guys on GitP are looking for a girlfriend, actively or passively, but I haven't seen many threads to that effect.

[Maralais]

Although wanting a girlfriend seems normal, I sometimes think we're just taught to have a girlfriend. Because that shows that we can actually be close with someone, or because it means we can affect someone to the point of love etc, reason doesn't matter, but wanting a relation with someone, anyone is not healthy. That was lies madness.

The first problem starts off with the fact that when you become this desperate, it doesn't give much of a good image for impressing people. Which is usually a problem when trying to have a girlfriend. Second, you should be searching a relationship with a person important to you so that their importance will be crowned(so to speak) with the closeness, that way you'd be searching for the person, not the relationship. Searching for someone to be close makes the person much less important for you, which is very silly when our subject is "relationships with other people".

So, you don't have a girlfriend? Neither do I. Never had before? Neither did I(alright, I am younger than you but it doesn't matter much). It's okay to get this need from time to time, but don't let it consume you. I fall for it quite a lot of times too, but what's important is to get up, shrug your shoulders and say "I'm lonely, but I ain't that lonely yet."(yes, that WAS a White Stripes reference), because you aren't that lonely, really.

Even if you are, just as you said, you need someone to talk to, it doesn't necessarily have to be a girlfriend, though it can be girl friend. Meet new people, get to know them, let them get to know you, do zany shenanigans with them. Who knows, you might get a crush on a few them, and if you're lucky, a few of them might get a crush on you. Just don't let this urge make you desperate, and you'll have already increased your chances of finding a date by an incredible amount.

also, Candle Jack, you've got a very interesting n

[Kensen]

I think the reason was not so much the desire for a girlfriend so much as his reasons for it, and his way of going about it. Plenty of single guys out there are looking who don't need shrinks. A guy who goes to the forum who wants a girl he can talk to so he can call her his girlfriend and tell people he's got one.... well that sounds like something that most people outgrow by the time they hit puberty, and he probably could benefit from talking to a professional.

I think he wants a full-fledged girlfriend, but he wants to start off with something that doesn't sound too intimidating for himself or the would-be girlfriend. Granted, the way he put it made it sound a bit awkward, but there's nothing wrong with wanting a "lite" relationship that doesn't involve sex or too much seriousness (initially) even if he's 19. He just needs to hone his social skills so that he won't be misunderstood.

[prufock]

the OP needs 1) the social skills needed for getting to know girls ... A shrink cannot give him either of these things.

I'd like to chime in with my disagreement on this statement. There is more to psychology than just the "talking cure" of Fraud... I mean Freud.

This isn't to say that I think the OP needs to see a professional. I have no opinion one way or the other, and I don't think anyone else has enough information to make that call. The biggest issue I see, OP, is that you aren't sure what your reasons for wanting a girlfriend are.

[Eruantion]

My thoughts exactly. Most or many of the single guys on GitP are looking for a girlfriend, actively or passively, but I haven't seen many threads to that effect.

Is there any rule saying there can't be a single's thread or something along those lines?

[Juggling Goth]

Don't view women as opportunities. This is hard to explain, but I can always tell when a guy is doing this. It is a massive turn-off and makes me want to shower when a guy quite clearly has an image in his head of what he wants, and is asking every single girl he encounters on the offchance she might meet his requirements. It's icky. He clearly has no interest in me as a person, only in the possibility of what I can do for him. Don't be that guy.

[Moff Chumley]

Is there any rule saying there can't be a single's thread or something along those lines?

Not that I know of, but the subset of people seeking online relationships is, I must imagine, small.

[Occasional Sage]

Most single guys are looking for a girlfriend.

Simplified that for you.

[Asthix]

I'm going to go ahead and assume you're not crazy Doomboy911, and even give you a piece of advice that contradicts almost everything else in this thread:

Do what you feel like. I believe in you.

[Seffbasilisk]

Most guys are looking for a girlfriend, actively and passively.

Clarified for you.


I guess the summation of what everyone's trying to tell you dude, is to figure out what you really want. If it's to appease everyone? Tough cookies, you're not going to do that. If it's to feel good about yourself? You don't need someone else to do that. If it's to have someone to talk to? Friends are cool, strangers at a bus-stop work too. If it's to have a girlfriend? That's a horse of a different color.


Also, Candlejack? You totally stole my

[Totally Guy]

I have a relevant link but some might not like it.

Here. (http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml)

[Dark Kerman]

Okay, i'm going to give you some advice that was given to me by my father, and his father, and his father all the way back to the neothilic period.

Get a club. Find the nearest female. Club female.

Chicks dig a caveman. :smallcool:

[Keld Denar]

No offense dude, but if you jump in the water to save a drowning man, he pulls you under and you both die. You have to teach a man to swim instead. You sound a bit needy, likely to cling to anything that gives you attention like a drowning man clutches a rescuer. Don't just jump in head first, learn to swim first. The rest will come along naturally. If you try to force it, either it'll illude you or you'll enter into an unhealthy relationship that
might do more harm than good.

You really need to take a step back and look at your reasons from a birdseye PoV. Seriously, reading your post, my initial reaction was "creepy/needy", and that is possibly one of the most UNATTRACTIVE qualities a person could have. Not saying that that is exactly the case, but thats exactly how you come off as. And well, good intentions and all that jazz...

[Giggling Ghast]

I have a relevant link but some might not like it.

Here. (http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml)

Heh. It's a bit heartless, but it's pretty on the spot. I used to complain a lot about my lack of success with girls until I realized at some point that the actual problem was my great honkin' stack of insecurities.

Of course, recognizing a problem and dealing with it are two entirely different balls of wax. So now I channel my anxiety into sniffing various household chemicals I find in peoples' garages.

On that note, I think I'm starting to come down, so I better hit the paint store before it closes.

[BladeofOblivion]

Heh. It's a bit heartless, but it's pretty on the spot. I used to complain a lot about my lack of success with girls until I realized at some point that the actual problem was my great honkin' stack of insecurities.

Of course, recognizing a problem and dealing with it are two entirely different balls of wax. So now I channel my anxiety into sniffing various chemicals I find in peoples' garages.

On that note, I think I'm starting to come down, so I better hit the paint store before it closes.

That's... ...not much of an improvement. :smalleek:


...:smalltongue:

[Giggling Ghast]

My doctor says I'm going to suffer brain damage. Some people say I babble random nonsense at times, but I just think that nuclear power is no solution to global warming because of all the racoons it creates.

But y'know, I can quit any bananas I want to.

[TheLaughingMan]

You mean the OP didn't weird you out?

Oh yeah, but I never miss a chance to snark.

You can't see me OP, but I'm giving you a look of subtle disappointment so hard right now.

[AsteriskAmp]

It baffles me that so many people suggested seeing a shrink as the best/first solution. :smalleek: Maybe it's a cultural thing. It's obvious the OP needs 1) the social skills needed for getting to know girls and 2) a place/community where he can meet girls, whether online or IRL. A shrink cannot give him either of these things.

The best thing you can do is hang out with friends who know girls, or failing that, talk to girls on dating sites/social networking sites. I've made many female friends that way.

Anyway, good luck!
The OP needs to develop a set of social skills (where it is included the ability to discriminate the correct medium in for which to look for a determined person, in this case a relationship) a shrink DOES help with that (there are kinds of shrinks, the systemic or the humanistic both would be rather fitting for example in this case). Also, it's not the end, but the means, the way the OP worded it says a lot (some others have mentioned it as well).

I think he wants a full-fledged girlfriend, but he wants to start off with something that doesn't sound too intimidating for himself or the would-be girlfriend. Granted, the way he put it made it sound a bit awkward, but there's nothing wrong with wanting a "lite" relationship that doesn't involve sex or too much seriousness (initially) even if he's 19. He just needs to hone his social skills so that he won't be misunderstood.
The issue is that it would be an a priori relationship, it's literally the want for a relationship for the sake of developing it into a deeper one, and that sounds rather strange considering people either go for friendships (or develop them) or directly into a deeper one (which is offered in some sites here listed). The transition he wants is in most cases natural, not pre-planned as he puts it.

I'd like to chime in with my disagreement on this statement. There is more to psychology than just the "talking cure" of Fraud... I mean Freud.

This isn't to say that I think the OP needs to see a professional. I have no opinion one way or the other, and I don't think anyone else has enough information to make that call. The biggest issue I see, OP, is that you aren't sure what your reasons for wanting a girlfriend are.
Psychology still owes a lot to that guy (even though most of his theories were updated [rather than the common misconception of the misconception that they were all plain wrong])

I concur though with the second part, that's one of the weird issues that is also part of the OP. You don't seem really clear on what you really want, and it could help the the OP actually tried to contact someone to talk through about this issue.(even non psychological, from a family member perhaps).

Is there any rule saying there can't be a single's thread or something along those lines?
I always thought the Playground was not oriented in that way in the sense that it would be kinda strange in many senses (not to mention the already present issues between many non-relationship relationships).

[Doomboy911]

Dang I read through all this and I think I need to read through it again. Let me ask and request something to try and reach my goal. Does anyone here have an available female friend who they think would like me? If so could you tell them about me so we could set up a dialogue in an attempt to develop a friendship that would hopefully evolve into a relationship?

[Giggling Ghast]

Dang I read through all this and I think I need to read through it again. Let me ask and request something to try and reach my goal. Does anyone here have an available female friend who they think would like me? If so could you tell them about me so we could set up a dialogue in an attempt to develop a friendship that would hopefully evolve into a relationship?

Oh, you want us to hook you up! You do realize that this is NOT a dating site? That this is an Internet forum and there are people on it from around the world? Even if someone here knew someone suitable for you, they might not live in the same city — hell, the same country — as you. I think you'd be better finding a girlfriend locally.

On the other hand, do you live in Alberta? If so, I could introduce you to that lady I mentioned, the one with the bucket head. She's a great listener.

Well, she did interrupt me that one time, but I'm fairly certain I was hallucinating, since she told me I would need to lay more eggs if I ever wanted to raise my own chickens.

[Occasional Sage]

You made it to the paint store before closing, I see.

Doom: aside from not knowing what you're like to judge compatabilitu, I'm way outside the "appropriate" age range. I hope you find somebody nice, though.

[TheLaughingMan]

If so could you tell them about me so we could set up a dialogue in an attempt to develop a friendship that would hopefully evolve into a relationship?

...Why not just, y'know, try for a romantic relationship from the start? Or are you just setting up a more interesting romance sub-plot for your biography? If it's the latter, trust me, it ain't worth it.

[Tyndmyr]

*shrug* IMO, self-understanding is always a worthy goal. And having/desiring relationships with others is perfectly normal.

That said, while the internet is great for many things...it's harder to get to really know people with. An inherent part of communication for people is non-verbal stuff, and it's a biggie. It can be done, sure, but it's not easy. I wouldn't suggest the extra challenge for a first relationship, and I've married someone I met online. That said, the internet is a good place to find info about activities and things you enjoy, and finding groups of like minded people near you. Make new friends, meet lots of people, and see if you run into someone awesome.

[Doomboy911]

Yes but nothing worth having ever came easily. That sounds like an orgasm joke feel free to use it that way.

[Tyndmyr]

Yes but nothing worth having ever came easily. That sounds like an orgasm joke feel free to use it that way.

People say that...but if it were true, the lottery wouldn't exist.

If you're having trouble with the initial meeting of people, feel free to hit up an online site. Some of em, like okcupid, are free. Of course, use your best judgement before meeting people you meet online. All kinds of folks out there.

But if you actually prefer not to meet the person involved in RL, you probably need to investigate why that's the case.

[Doomboy911]

Well I figured I'd use the internet because RL is like firing a sniper rifle while the internet is a shotgun. The internet has a wider range.

[AsteriskAmp]

Well I figured I'd use the internet because RL is like firing a sniper rifle while the internet is a shotgun. The internet has a wider range.
Firing in Real Life is firing at a crowd at point blank, firing in the internet is firing into the horizon hoping there is a duck flying somewhere near you.

[Tyndmyr]

Well I figured I'd use the internet because RL is like firing a sniper rifle while the internet is a shotgun. The internet has a wider range.

Well, to use the analogy, that only helps if you're firing in the right direction. I'd honestly suggest eharmony or something...not because the people there are inherently better or anything, but because filling out the questionares and what not is a good way to reflect on both who you are, and what you want in a relationship. You're going to have to do that at some point anyhow, so you might as well get it out of the way in short order.

Once actually on a site, though, note that there are a *lot* of people out there. A ridiculous number, even. You HAVE to be at least somewhat selective. You can't possibly try to talk to everyone...and tbh, people tend to automatically filter out generic emails and things anyway. If you go with the "anyone" approach, you risk appearing desperate, which is a pretty bad negative image. It'll likely turn off the best sorts of people.

The world is positively stuffed with people. You can have quite high standards, and still have a great selection of interesting people to meet and possibly start a relationship with.

[Doomboy911]

Does anyone remember how many are on the earth I think it was up there in the trillions. It's off topic but its been gnawing at the back of my head.

[THAC0]

Does anyone remember how many are on the earth I think it was up there in the trillions. It's off topic but its been gnawing at the back of my head.

Almost 7 billion if I am not mistaken.

Thank god not trillions, though I'm afraid we'll reach that in my lifetime...

[Rettu Skcollob]

I had the same thing for a while when I was younger, had several girls initiate a relationship with me before dropping it when I treated them like really good friends rather than anything else. (Didn't really like the sex much either, mainly did it because it was expected of me. Middle school was weird.) A few years ago I realised that as much as society pressed upon me that it was abnormal, I really didn't want a relationship in conventional terms at all.

Of course, soon after coming to grips with that, I've recently begun a relationship with someone who already has a boyfriend that could, if things continue, be construed as cheating, so I guess life is like that sometimes. Just stop worrying about it, I felt a lot happier once I did.

[Xyk]

There are roughly 6.7 billion on earth. I'm sure there's one for you. Confidence, bro. Women (and everyone else) like confidence. You're 19, you'll have time to get what you're achin' for. Patience and confidence will get you pretty much whatever you want. Note: I'm 18 and single, but also attractive, so I might not be the best adviser. :smallbiggrin:

[THAC0]

(Didn't really like the sex much either, mainly did it because it was expected of me. Middle school was weird.)

No offense to you, but this is precisely what is wrong with society. Middle-schoolers ought not be having sex! :smallmad:

[Seffbasilisk]

I have a relevant link but some might not like it.

Here. (http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml)

THANK YOU!

'Nice guy' syndrome ruined the relationship with my second ex-fiancee. Honestly, in her mind, it would have been better if I'd beaten her than tried to be Perfect.



OP: Dude. Where you at? If you're in the area, you can totally play wingman, take the uggos while I aim for the hotties.

[Juggling Goth]

Dang I read through all this and I think I need to read through it again. Let me ask and request something to try and reach my goal. Does anyone here have an available female friend who they think would like me? If so could you tell them about me so we could set up a dialogue in an attempt to develop a friendship that would hopefully evolve into a relationship?


The internet has a wider range.

Yeah, there's part of your problem, right there. You need standards other than "female" and reasons other than "because they're there and you want one". No-one likes to feel like she was worth a try, or you threw enough mud at a wall, or she's a life-support system for her girl-parts, or she's some kind of possession you acquired.

[Reluctance]

Where do you live, Doomboy? Wherever it is, hit up the local Craigslist, and search using the term "GFE". That's really the only way to find what you're so insistent about.

Seriously, though, you have a major case of putting the cart before the horse. If you want to date so you can be a romantic goob, grow a pair and ask a girl out. If you want a girlfriend, someone you can be emotionally intimate with, you need to focus on having girl friends first and letting things grow from there. And while the E-GF is fun as training wheels, do keep in mind that that's exactly what they are.


Is there any rule saying there can't be a single's thread or something along those lines?

In theory, no. In practice, between the vast spread of ages amongst forumites and the sex ratio on the forum (especially the sex ratio amongst singles), the biggest question is if the thread'll die as a sausage fest before it needs to be closed down for introducing a legally questionable pairing.

[Keld Denar]

Bingo, Jugs got it right (I can call you Jugs, right?).

Girls want to be desired, and not just because they are girls. They want to know that you prefer their company over others, not simply because they were the first one to relent to your desires. "Being there" is not special, and that attitude will generally turn most women off. You need self-confidence to know that you deserve an amazing girl, and then when you find that amazing girl, she'll feel special to know that shes with someone who cares about her because shes amazing.

Seriously, you need to look at yourself before you try to add others into your life or you are just gonna end up in an unhealthy relationship.

[Fan]

Legally questionable? As far as I know none of those exist outside of extreme age difference between minors, and even then it's only illegal if they actually.. do the deed..

So..

[Moff Chumley]

Heh. It's a bit heartless, but it's pretty on the spot. I used to complain a lot about my lack of success with girls until I realized at some point that the actual problem was my great honkin' stack of insecurities.

Of course, recognizing a problem and dealing with it are two entirely different balls of wax. So now I channel my anxiety into sniffing various household chemicals I find in peoples' garages.

On that note, I think I'm starting to come down, so I better hit the paint store before it closes.

I think I'm gonna sig portions of this if you don't mind. :smallsmile:

[Rettu Skcollob]

No offense to you, but this is precisely what is wrong with society. Middle-schoolers ought not be having sex! :smallmad:

Oh I don't know, I turned out alright. So long as there are activities associated with being mature, immature people will perform them for the express purpose of seeming so. That's just human nature. That's why kids smoked out the back, bragged about how much ice they'd done the weekend before and paid nearby university students to buy them booze and drugs.

Hell, the first girl I had sex with, back when I was 13, she's straight edge now, despite being able to acquire drugs and all that quite easily. Hell, we still occasionally hang out to go dancing, watch My Little Pony or have casual sex. There were worse things we could've done.

[Asta Kask]

Bingo, Jugs got it right (I can call you Jugs, right?).

You do know she practices karate, don't you? I've heard she's not bad at it.

[Giggling Ghast]

I think I'm gonna sig portions of this if you don't mind. :smallsmile:

Yeah, go ahead.


Hell, the first girl I had sex with, back when I was 13, she's straight edge now, despite being able to acquire drugs and all that quite easily. Hell, we still occasionally hang out to go dancing, watch My Little Pony or have casual sex. There were worse things we could've done.

Like having sex while watching My Little Pony? I think they have a special circle in hell reserved for that.

[Totally Guy]

Like having sex while watching My Little Pony? I think they have a special circle in hell reserved for that.

I can't look as his avatar the same way! :smalleek:

[Keld Denar]

Um...pony style?

[Strawberries]

Girls want to be desired, and not just because they are girls. They want to know that you prefer their company over others, not simply because they were the first one to relent to your desires. "Being there" is not special, and that attitude will generally turn most women off.

You mean it's not the same for men? That....worries me :smalleek:

But seriously, this (and Juggling Goth's) is good advice. I couldn't have put it better.


Um...pony style?

You are a bad person. :smalltongue:

[Juggling Goth]

You do know she practices karate, don't you? I've heard she's not bad at it.

Bless you, Asta. I'm not good at it, mind. Just not bad at it.

"Jugs"? This is because I complained about being seen as a life-support system for girl-parts, isn't it? :smallwink:

[Keld Denar]

You mean it's not the same for men? That....worries me :smalleek:
Eh, its a bit different in guys. Yea, its still there, its just not as strong of a driver. Well, at least not for me. I tend to be more rational than emotional. I know I'm special, because she's with me, and thats reassurance enough in my mind.

You are a bad person. :smalltongue:
But I'm good at being bad!

"Jugs"? This is because I complained about being seen as a life-support system for girl-parts, isn't it? :smallwink:
Oh come on...you gotta admit that was a clever nick-name, given your username, right? Reminds me of when I used to play DotA...Jugs was short for Juggernaught.

[DeadManSleeping]

"Jugs"? This is because I complained about being seen as a life-support system for girl-parts, isn't it? :smallwink:

What? No, it's an abbreviation for your-...oh, wait, I see. How awkward.

[Moff Chumley]

...so now I can't tell if I love this thread, or am deathly afraid of it. :smalltongue:

[ZombyWoof]

You mean it's not the same for men? That....worries me :smalleek:
Guys'll take any attention they can get.

On that note: LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!



"Jugs"? This is because I complained about being seen as a life-support system for girl-parts, isn't it? :smallwink:
Brumbum is another nickname that would work...

[Weezer]

Bingo, Jugs got it right (I can call you Jugs, right?).

Girls want to be desired, and not just because they are girls. They want to know that you prefer their company over others, not simply because they were the first one to relent to your desires. "Being there" is not special, and that attitude will generally turn most women off. You need self-confidence to know that you deserve an amazing girl, and then when you find that amazing girl, she'll feel special to know that shes with someone who cares about her because shes amazing.

Seriously, you need to look at yourself before you try to add others into your life or you are just gonna end up in an unhealthy relationship.

This is so very true. A girl and I were interested in each other and were dancing around dating, we had slipped into a quasi-relationship that was odd to say the least, when she asked me if I really wanted her or if I just wanted someone. Her asking that made me realize that I did just want someone, anyone, and that in many ways it was unfair to her, so we ended our quasi-relationship. Now we're close friends and certain that we made the right choice. So Doomboy, please find someone that you want for herself, not just because she happens to be available.

As Kant said (I paraphrased a bit for clarity):

"Act in such a way that you treat humanity always as an end and never merely as a means to an end."

EDIT:
On a slightly more helpful note, you seem incredibly lonely Doomboy and I know how that can feel, I was in much your position only a year or two ago. While I am male, and know no girls that would fit what you need, I am more than willing to be an ear, to listen to anything you need to talk about and perhaps help in some way. Please feel free to PM me, we can exchange IM or Skype info, if you want to talk.

[Asta Kask]

Bless you, Asta. I'm not good at it, mind. Just not bad at it.

:smallbiggrin:

You're what? A brown belt?

Yeah, women want to be seen as individuals, not as interchangeable boob-units. Strange creatures, they are.

[ZombyWoof]

Yeah, women want to be seen as individuals, not as interchangeable boob-units.
So this is what I've been doing wrong...

[Doomboy911]

Well I am lucky enough to have this girl with me. She's sweet, tough, calm and collected while being really neurotic about stuff. We have stuff in common while being on completely different ends on arguments (she says quantum physics are hooey). She told me that she wants us to remain a friendship. Now that I think on it as long as I'm with her I'm fairly happy. Her and I have an internet friendship and hope to move in together once we're done with college. I take care of her and she does the same. I suppose I was after a relationship like I had with hers that was more than just a friendship. I can say at least that she and I are best friends and forever will be. Also Weezer I'd enjoy being friends with you. Do you like Minecraft? The works of Stan Lee? The musical stylings of Queen, Nirvana, Limp Bizkit, and Maximum the Hormone?

[Weezer]

Never tried Minecraft, mostly due to a fear it would consume my life...
My exposure to comics has been limited to Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman, so never come across anything by Stan Lee. As for the music I like Queen and Nirvana but never even heard of the other two.

[Doomboy911]

Alright I suppose I could stay friends with you.PM me I'll pm you back. Also anyone here who feels like talking to me on skype just pm me.

[Asta Kask]

Also note that there are women who won't want you as a boyfriend for the simple reason that they are lesbians. These are great for lulling other women into a false sense of security (he's already got a girlfriend, so I'm safe) but also tend to compete for available women. :smallbiggrin:

[pendell]

Reading this thread ...

1) Having seen too many psychologists et al, I would never recommend one if they can be avoided.

You're in school , right? If you seriously believe you need a psychologist, go look up your guidance counselor. The counselor sees all kinds of kid from the somewhat disoriented to the really disturbed, and will have a pretty good idea whether you need help or not. If they make the recommendation, the school system may even pay for it, a benefit not to be ignored in this day of high medical costs.

2) How to get a girlfriend?
so .. you want somebody to listen to you right?

Well, the best way I know of to do that is to listen yourself.

It seems to me that the world is full of lonely people who don't fit, who are bored, who are ignored, who have a pile of good ideas no one else wants to listen to.

If you can be that listener for someone else, they'll do almost anything for you.

A true relationship is not a one way street, where the other person cares for you. No, it's about the two of you caring for each other.

So I would go to all those places where I have interests -- church, gaming groups, chess club, library -- and just get on with pursuing those things I really enjoy, am really passionate about. Eventually, I'll encounter someone who is female who shares that interest.

Now that you've got common interests, you can start talking to them. See if there's a basis for a friendship there.

It may not work. In which case, you dial it down to whatever level you're comfortable with and keep looking. It's a bad idea to get too wrapped up in any one person, because that way lies stalking. I know it sometimes seems like there is one person who is The One -- but that's usually just the hormones. If it doesn't work, let 'em go, and someone else will eventually come along.

Eventually, you may find someone who meets your emotional needs as you meet hers -- someone you can love while still being true to yourself. Doesn't work at all if you have to pretend to be someone you're not. You're looking for someone who likes you for you who are, and whom YOU like for who THEY are, not for what they're not.

Invest in that relationship. You'll get out of it what you put into it. You want to be listened to? Listen to that other person. You want comfort? Comfort that other person. You want encouragement? Encourage that other person.

As a rule, you get out what you put in. If it's not a two-way street -- if you're doing all the giving and the other person only takes -- cut 'em loose and find someone else. You've got enough burdens of your own to carry without having to carry someone else as well. You want a partner, not a child.

Eventually, if you keep it up long enough, you may find the person who meets your needs -- emotional, physical, mental -- just as you meet hers. And so at some point you ask her just how long she'd like to continue this. Then you give her a ring.

One last bit of advice.

I strongly encourage you to avoid sexual entanglements until the ring is on.

Why? Well, I never went .. all the way around the bases .. in school, but I did get some .. solid base hits, shall we say. And quite apart from pregnancy and disease, breaking up with someone you've been intimate with can be awkward in the worst way. Sex takes any relationship up to a whole 'nother level, and if the relationship isn't stable it can break pretty badly. And all that love and passion that went into sex turns into hate and anger. Hell hath no fury like an ex-wife.

ETA: case in point (http://www.nationalenquirer.com/celebrity/hate-torn-maria-shriver-revenge-arnold).

So save yourself a lot of pain and trouble. Keep out of entanglements until you're really sure that what you've got is for life, and once you've made that decision stick with it. I've never been through divorce, but those who have tell me it's hell on earth.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Pika...]

Hi Doomboy,

I am sorry I am late to your thread, but I feared posting in it.

I am twenty-four and close to twenty-five, and I emotionally crave a girlfriend/wife to love and cherish myself. I have never had one, and to be quite honest and very saddened by that fact.

I occasionally imagine what it would be like to come home, and prepare lunch/dinner daily for someone special. To cater to them when they arrive. To feel loved and cared for. Someone to be there when I am depressed, and especially when I cry.

Heck, I am tearing up just writing this. Basically, I know how you feel and what you want, but you are much younger than me so you have time! No girl wants to date someone like me/us this late, but you are only nineteen, so you have time. Take care of yourself dood, and good luck! :smallsmile:

[Whiffet]

No girl wants to date someone like me/us this late

If it helps you feel better, my parents would have never started dating and eventually gotten married if that was true. My dad was early thirties, mom middle twenties. The age difference doesn't matter as much when you get older.

Don't give up. :smallsmile:

[Keld Denar]

Brian P, always the voice of reason. Listen to his words and heed them.

I do have an interesting statistic for your last little tid-bit there. You know what the leading cause of divorce is? Marriage. Fully 100% of people who get divorced have at some point been married in their life. Statistics don't lie, my friend...statistics don't lie.

[pendell]

I do have an interesting statistic for your last little tid-bit there. You know what the leading cause of divorce is? Marriage. Fully 100% of people who get divorced have at some point been married in their life. Statistics don't lie, my friend...statistics don't lie.


ROTFLOL!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheLaughingMan]

No girl wants to date someone like me/us this late, but you are only nineteen, so you have time.

My uncle got married in his fifties. Don't count yourself out just yet. :smallsmile:

[Occasional Sage]

Brian P, always the voice of reason. Listen to his words and heed them.

I do have an interesting statistic for your last little tid-bit there. You know what the leading cause of divorce is? Marriage. Fully 100% of people who get divorced have at some point been married in their life. Statistics don't lie, my friend...statistics don't lie.

...

By that logic, the leading cause of death is sex.

...

I do not like your logic.

[AsteriskAmp]

...

By that logic, the leading cause of death is sex.

...

I do not like your logic.

Nope, breathing.
Remember that kids also die.

[Occasional Sage]

Nope, breathing.
Remember that kids also die.

Well, the parents are the cause really. Just sayin'.

[Kageru]

Honestly I don't think you get to old for dating. (Provided that the age group you would date changes with you own age. If you are fifty and wouldn't date someone older than 20, well than it's your own problem.)
My mother is in her fifties and has a new boyfriend since a year or so.
Personally I never had a girlfriend and I am 23. And I do think I could find someone if I bothered to expand my social circle. Granted I never really wanted a girlfriend so it doesn't bother me that I don't have one.
But I think your twenties are too soon to despair.

Edit: Naturally getting kids (and thus sex) is the reason for death. The only way we can prevent the death of coming generations is to prevent their birth.

[AsteriskAmp]

Well, the parents are the cause really. Just sayin'.

Orphans also exist you know, and there is death by childbirth, in which case the child could end up parent-less at birth..

[Occasional Sage]

Orphans also exist you know, and there is death by childbirth, in which case the child could end up parent-less at birth..

And still, if the deceased's parents hadn't had that particular conjugal moment, nobody'd've died.

[AsteriskAmp]

And still, if the deceased's parents hadn't had that particular conjugal moment, nobody'd've died.
Science marches on.
There is in vitro fertilization and with the creation of artificial sperm they are very near to making your statement not necesarilly true.

But I concede, though in a few years I'll return to edit this post.

[Occasional Sage]

Science marches on.
There is in vitro fertilization and with the creation of artificial sperm they are very near to making your statement not necesarilly true.

But I concede, though in a few years I'll return to edit this post.



By that logic, the leading cause of death is sex.


Emphasized that for you. :smallwink:

[AsteriskAmp]

Emphasized that for you. :smallwink:

Binary Fission and Asexual reproduction in Monera and Protista and Plants
You never said humans :smallbiggrin:

[Occasional Sage]

le sigh....

[Asta Kask]

*goes off to search for the topic*

[Juggling Goth]

Heck, I am tearing up just writing this. Basically, I know how you feel and what you want, but you are much younger than me so you have time! No girl wants to date someone like me/us this late, but you are only nineteen, so you have time. Take care of yourself dood, and good luck! :smallsmile:

You're not exactly ancient yourself. 24? You've barely started! (She says, at the ripe old age of 27.)

People date at all ages. My partner's grandad has had a string of girlfriends, and I've been to two weddings when the happy couple were in their forties and fifties.

I know it seems like the big 30 is racing towards you and everybody else has their life sorted out and you should have found your life partner and done great things by now, but you've got decades to go and everyone else is blagging it and panicking too. It's gonna be okay.

[Solaris]

I'm not gonna lie, I had to resist coming in here with some seriously cruel mockery. I resisted not because it would have been against forum rules, but because I realize that you might miss why I did it: Weakness invokes contempt. You're not going to attract anyone with a pity party, at least in part because you're advertising that you're an unfit mate as compared to someone much more self-assured. Saying "Woe is me, nobody loves me, won't you please?" has a dismally low success rate. Work on that self-confidence thing. There's nothing else that attracts girls more.


Yeah, there's part of your problem, right there. You need standards other than "female" and reasons other than "because they're there and you want one". No-one likes to feel like she was worth a try, or you threw enough mud at a wall, or she's a life-support system for her girl-parts, or she's some kind of possession you acquired.

The fact that there are people who don't get that is mildly frightful. The fact that some of them are females is downright depressing.
Besides, most of the guys who claim to have those standards neglect to also add "physically attractive", which is where their major dishonesty comes from.


You mean it's not the same for men? That....worries me :smalleek:

Not... entirely. Girls like being pursued. Specifically, they want a guy they like to pursue them. Guys react to pursuit in more of a 'flight or fight' type. Don't get me wrong, forthrightness can be very refreshing, but when a guy tells you he's not interested, he ain't just playing hard to get. Get clingy, he can start pulling evasive maneuvers like no other.


Yeah, women want to be seen as individuals, not as interchangeable boob-units. Strange creatures, they are.

Just so you know, my dog is very unhappy that I read that. She was sleeping quite peacefully until I laughed.


I am twenty-four and close to twenty-five, and I emotionally crave a girlfriend/wife to love and cherish myself. I have never had one, and to be quite honest and very saddened by that fact.

Personally, I'm happier being single. I tried that whole dating thing. Turns out girls want attention. Loads of it. Unlike my dog, I can't tell them to go lay down when they're being pesky. There's also a disconcerting trend, particularly as some people simply refuse to grow up, in retaining those 'adorable' teenager behaviors like, well, being disturbingly clingy, criminally invasive, and neurotically jealous. All in all, more trouble than they're worth - especially for a loner type like myself. I came to the conclusion that while social contact is healthy, it's not a need. I am an entire person in and of myself, and don't need someone else to make me whole. Should try looking into that.

EDIT: About that 'dating at any age' thing? My ninety-year-old grandmother has a boyfriend. Just sayin'.

[Knaight]

Personally, I'm happier being single. I tried that whole dating thing. Turns out girls want attention. Loads of it. Unlike my dog, I can't tell them to go lay down when they're being pesky. There's also a disconcerting trend, particularly as some people simply refuse to grow up, in retaining those 'adorable' teenager behaviors like, well, being disturbingly clingy, criminally invasive, and neurotically jealous. All in all, more trouble than they're worth - especially for a loner type like myself. I came to the conclusion that while social contact is healthy, it's not a need. I am an entire person in and of myself, and don't need someone else to make me whole. Should try looking into that.

People vary. Stating that girls want loads of attention as a universal truth is about as accurate as stating that boys want loads of attention as a universal truth. Moreover, social contact consists of a lot of different things, some of them healthy, some of them not. As for what determines that, I've found that people who actively look for relationships of a certain kind tend to be in unhealthier relationships overall than people who simply let relationships develop. Of course, I'm heavily biased, being of the second sort myself.

[junglesteve]

You're not exactly ancient yourself. 24? You've barely started! (She says, at the ripe old age of 27.)

People date at all ages. My partner's grandad has had a string of girlfriends, and I've been to two weddings when the happy couple were in their forties and fifties.

I know it seems like the big 30 is racing towards you and everybody else has their life sorted out and you should have found your life partner and done great things by now, but you've got decades to go and everyone else is blagging it and panicking too. It's gonna be okay.

Truth

I didn't start dating until this year - im 25! @_@ It took me almost six years to get over that self pity bologna and just GET OUT THERE! I had to move outside my familiar circle and thrust myself into social situations that used to make me uncomfortable until I was desensitized. Anyway thats what worked for me.

[Solaris]

People vary. Stating that girls want loads of attention as a universal truth is about as accurate as stating that boys want loads of attention as a universal truth. Moreover, social contact consists of a lot of different things, some of them healthy, some of them not. As for what determines that, I've found that people who actively look for relationships of a certain kind tend to be in unhealthier relationships overall than people who simply let relationships develop. Of course, I'm heavily biased, being of the second sort myself.

Never said they didn't want attention, just pulling observations from my own experiences. Given that I've spent most of my adult life on a military base, I haven't observed a whole lot of adults in their natural environment. I am biased on that regard: I see nothing wrong with going a month or year or two without contacting any friends or family. My mother's doing good to get a phone call from me once or twice a year, for example. I wasn't kidding when I said I was a loner.

I agree with that point about searching out a relationship ending up worse than a less active search. Looking for love indicates a decline of normal standards.

[Doomboy911]

Dude we have like seven years between us you can still get a girl. Just take the advice people gave me, get out there and be happy.

[Solaris]

Dude we have like seven years between us you can still get a girl. Just take the advice people gave me, get out there and be happy.

I hope you're not talking to me.

Personally, I'm happier being single.
'Cause I said what I meant, and meant what I said. I haven't quit looking for a girlfriend because I despair of her existence; to the contrary, I'm certain it wouldn't be hard at all. After all, every single one of my ancestors managed to pull it off. The fact of the matter is that I really do prefer being a single man. My time is my own. Every dollar I earn I spend as I choose (well, once the Infernal Revenue Service gives the money they withhold back I spend all of it). I don't have to deal with someone else's bullpucky. Nobody else has to deal with mine, and I'm one of the most aggressively territorial people I know with a low-grade OCD that everyone gets after a few years in the Army. I know I'm damn near impossible to live with (just ask any of my roommates), and I have no intention of changing that.

[Keld Denar]

I think he was refering to Pika.

Solaris, I pretty much agree with one thing you said, though. Pity is NOT sexy. Being lost and confused and helpless may work for puppies, but not so much for boyfriends.

[Pika...]

Being lost and confused and helpless may work for puppies, but not so much for boyfriends.

Hmmmm....

Anyone got a polymorph spell?

[Solaris]

I think he was refering to Pika.

Solaris, I pretty much agree with one thing you said, though. Pity is NOT sexy. Being lost and confused and helpless may work for puppies, but not so much for boyfriends.

That's entirely possible. The lack of nounage confused me.

Pity just plain ain't sexy in a mate, period. In small doses, it can make an already attractive person a little more attractive, sure. The pratfall affect. But someone who's weak and helpless makes me think more "Puppy" or "Baby", not "Yeah, that's someone I'd like to spend the rest of my life with".

[Doomboy911]

Nouns are for X. But yeah I was talking to Pika, in another world he's the one that writes this thread. Also if we had access to polymorph spells we wouldn't have this thread. I'm pretty sure everyone here would abuse that power. I wonder if it's within the polymorph spell to get heat vision?

[Seffbasilisk]

If I had access to Polymorph, I'd mostly just use it to counterspell.

The leading cause of Death is Life.

Every man dies, not every man Lives.

Take a chance, take a gamble, take a risk.

For me? I'm taking an old friend hiking to the top of a mountain later. Who knows? Lightning could strike.

[Trekkin]

I've found that people who actively look for relationships of a certain kind tend to be in unhealthier relationships overall than people who simply let relationships develop. Of course, I'm heavily biased, being of the second sort myself.

This is true to a point, in my view, but I'd say it's partially because people who seek relationships are unwilling to let them go. I suffered from that for some time, and eventually got around it via dating sites. As callous as it sounds, it was easier to say rationally "I'd rather be with someone else" than "I'd rather be alone", and having people bombarding my inbox all day with replies helped with that. I'm not plugging them universally, but they can help mitigate the problems with actively looking--and knowing that the other person(s) is/are actively looking as well can help quell the initial conversation butterflies and make it easier to send that first message and put oneself out there. Then again, perhaps I'm the only one to feel overwhelmingly like I'm intruding whenever I try to talk to people I don't know.

[Gandariel]

i already posted this in another thread (the Depression thread) but in case you haven't read it i think you should.


This is aimed to all of you, who claim they don't have any friends, they don't have a girlfriend and won't ever have one, who are depressed for all of this.

Acne.
Sociality is just like acne.
Ever wondered why nerd-ish guys have acne more often than "normal" guys?

maybe some of you thought, it's because i was born this way, it's because nature is cruel, it's because i'm unlucky and everyone else who is "normal" don't have them, they're so lucky..

Nope. Not at all. (ok, there are people who are more or less likely to have acne, but..)
Acne kind of disappears when you stay a lot in the sun.

Studies show that staying a lot in the sun (more or less slowly) makes acne disappear. Stay enough in the sun and acne sort of becomes dry and vanishes (English is not my first language, i'm not sure i wrote that correctly. Anyway the point is, staying in the sun helps. a lot.)

yes, other people who stay out a lot, go out with friends and such are less and less likely to get acne.
While if you stay a lot of time in your home, not having any social contact and not going outside, acne doesn't disappear (Though those biscuits DO have an effect..)

This is just similar to your condition: if you begin hanging out with friends, you'll going to meet more and more people and make more friends (it's kind of a vicious circle). if you hang out with people a lot, eventually you'll find one that likes you.
if you don't? well that's less and less likely.
You're not skilled at dealing with people? it's like xp in D&D: you won't get any if you don't go out and kill some goblins first.

so to summarise:
Just TRY. Everything will (more or less slowly) work out.

[Doomboy911]

but goblins only have a cr of 1/3 we'd need to kill hundreds of the buggers to level up and I am not going on a raiding party without a decent cleric and a ranger.

Translation.
But when I go out I don't see many people I'd need to find a place with thousands of people I can spend lots of time with in order to widen my social circle. I'm not heading out on my own unless I have someone good friends to go with prefferably someone who.. and this is where the metaphor dies. Someone help fill in the blanks.

[Whiffet]

So don't go somewhere with thousands of people. Go somewhere you're comfortable by yourself. Make small talk with people wherever you go. If you don't go out much... start doing it. It can be small things like going to buy groceries; it doesn't have to be huge.

Now, you said you're almost nineteen? Will you be going to college? That's an opportunity right there. A huge one.

Besides that, there's jobs and volunteer work. You can meet plenty of people that way.

[Solaris]

but goblins only have a cr of 1/3 we'd need to kill hundreds of the buggers to level up and I am not going on a raiding party without a decent cleric and a ranger.

Translation.
But when I go out I don't see many people I'd need to find a place with thousands of people I can spend lots of time with in order to widen my social circle. I'm not heading out on my own unless I have someone good friends to go with prefferably someone who.. and this is where the metaphor dies. Someone help fill in the blanks.

Why do you require backup?

[Moff Chumley]

I can emphasize. Backup is always nice, mostly because if you start to wimp out, your friends can push you on. :smalltongue:

[pendell]

Hmmmm....

Anyone got a polymorph spell?

In all seriousness, I do.

Not one that changes my physical body, no.

But I do have the power to change my self image. That's in my imagination. I can be whatever I want.

I can choose to be an unloveable nerd who no one likes.

Or I can choose to be the self-confident person brimming with love and joy who wants to share it with someone else.

I can be the mysterious stranger with the dangerous aura of mystery.

I think we've mentioned elsewhere in the OOTS thread that 90% of sex takes place above the neckline? That people write crack pairing fiction about stick figures not because they find the art attractive, but because the art evokes certain associations in their mind?

It's funny how that works. You can't change yourself into a dog, and you can't modify your phenotype very much. But you can make yourself attractive and desirable to other people. Maybe you can't make yourself into the most handsome in the world , maybe you can't make yourself attractive to all people, but you don't need to make yourself attractive to all people. Just that small subset of friends -- and that special someone.

You can choose the way other people see you using psychological cues such as body language, the way you dress, the way you talk. You can make yourself quite attractive, despite physical handicaps or other issues.

And that starts with changing the way you see yourself.

If you can't see yourself as attractive, how the heck else is anyone else going to be convinced of that?

Of course, there are ways to physically modify your appearance. Physical exercise. Training. Choice of clothes. But as far as physical appearances, I'll wager "queer eye for the straight guy" could make any male on this thread physically attractive with a little work. But it won't help at all, if the self-image isn't there.

Equally, if you can convince YOURSELF that you are, or can be, attractive, you'll find it much easier to convince other people of that without professional assistance.

So there is such a thing as a polymorph spell -- you can't change your physical form, but you can change the way you see yourself, and the way others see you. Because that is an act of imagination. A big percentage of the way people sees you has nothing to do with your eyes and everything to do with the associations you evoke.

Granted, it's a spell only in your mind. But as Terry Pratchett said in "Wintersmith" -- if a spell doesn't work in your mind, where else do you expect it to work?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Doomboy911]

In all seriousness, I do.

Not one that changes my physical body, no.

But I do have the power to change my self image. That's in my imagination. I can be whatever I want.

I can choose to be an unloveable nerd who no one likes.

Or I can choose to be the self-confident person brimming with love and joy who wants to share it with someone else.

I can be the mysterious stranger with the dangerous aura of mystery.

I think we've mentioned elsewhere in the OOTS thread that 90% of sex takes place above the neckline? That people write crack pairing fiction about stick figures not because they find the art attractive, but because the art evokes certain associations in their mind?

It's funny how that works. You can't change yourself into a dog, and you can't modify your phenotype very much. But you can make yourself attractive and desirable to other people. Maybe you can't make yourself into the most handsome in the world , maybe you can't make yourself attractive to all people, but you don't need to make yourself attractive to all people. Just that small subset of friends -- and that special someone.

You can choose the way other people see you using psychological cues such as body language, the way you dress, the way you talk. You can make yourself quite attractive, despite physical handicaps or other issues.

And that starts with changing the way you see yourself.

If you can't see yourself as attractive, how the heck else is anyone else going to be convinced of that?

Of course, there are ways to physically modify your appearance. Physical exercise. Training. Choice of clothes. But as far as physical appearances, I'll wager "queer eye for the straight guy" could make any male on this thread physically attractive with a little work. But it won't help at all, if the self-image isn't there.

Equally, if you can convince YOURSELF that you are, or can be, attractive, you'll find it much easier to convince other people of that without professional assistance.

So there is such a thing as a polymorph spell -- you can't change your physical form, but you can change the way you see yourself, and the way others see you. Because that is an act of imagination. A big percentage of the way people sees you has nothing to do with your eyes and everything to do with the associations you evoke.

Granted, it's a spell only in your mind. But as Terry Pratchett said in "Wintersmith" -- if a spell doesn't work in your mind, where else do you expect it to work?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

But you can't help me with my metaphor?

[Ranielle]

I'll never understand why girls are such a big deal ( for those people who are not girls, mostly )

[Moff Chumley]

Neither will most guys, I'm gonna guess. This is a never-ending source of confusion and frustration for many of us. :smalltongue:

[Asta Kask]

I'll never understand why girls are such a big deal ( for those people who are not girls, mostly )

Type 'boobs' into a search engine and view the results. :smallbiggrin:

[Ranielle]

Type 'boobs' into a search engine and view the results. :smallbiggrin:

There are a few interesting results, I'll give you that.
most are fake though.

On a somewhat more serious note, you shouldn't ever let your girlfriend ( or a lack of one ) define who you are. I've seen enough people get devastated after a breakup, or trying to get a girlfriend.

I think what men should do is find out what kind of person they want to be and work on that; instead of trying to be someone who will get a lot of girls. When you are who you want to be, you're bound to find someone who likes you for who you are, or find that you don't need one.

[pendell]

But you can't help me with my metaphor?

Well, I was answering Pika. Let's see your metaphor and I'll try ...



but goblins only have a cr of 1/3 we'd need to kill hundreds of the buggers to level up and I am not going on a raiding party without a decent cleric and a ranger.

Translation.
But when I go out I don't see many people I'd need to find a place with thousands of people I can spend lots of time with in order to widen my social circle. I'm not heading out on my own unless I have someone good friends to go with prefferably someone who.. and this is where the metaphor dies. Someone help fill in the blanks.


Hmm ... let's see, in our D&D metaphor, you are a level 0 social person. We need some Xp to level you up, some nice starter dungeon filled with kobolds, as opposed to Tomb of Horrors.

It'd be nice to go adventuring with friends, but if there are none available it's solo quest time. Hmmm..

I would suggest going down to the local game shop and see if anyone is advertising for a group to run a game with. You can practice your social skills in such a group with friendly gamers. It may also give you some wingmen/women when you're ready to tackle a bigger group.

XP in roleplaying and real life is built up step by step. In Kingdom Hearts II, you don't get to the battle of a thousand heartless until you've made it past the introductory levels, and the introductory levels are one nemesis at a time. The first boss battle is against exactly ONE enemy, and a mook at that.

So I say start small. Go find a small group of likeminded people. This will give you some starting XP and also provide a pool from which you can recruit for the more adventurous quests/social situations. It may also be that you can act as wingman for someone else on THEIR quest, and that's good XP as well.

Hope that helps!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gandariel]

but goblins only have a cr of 1/3 we'd need to kill hundreds of the buggers to level up and I am not going on a raiding party without a decent cleric and a ranger.

Translation.
But when I go out I don't see many people I'd need to find a place with thousands of people I can spend lots of time with in order to widen my social circle. I'm not heading out on my own unless I have someone good friends to go with prefferably someone who.. and this is where the metaphor dies. Someone help fill in the blanks.

as other people said, you don't need to go in a place with thousands of people. actually it's easier to start with a small gruop of people which share interests with you.

And anyway, just a suggestion: if you TRY making friends with people, you might not succeed. if you don't even try you are 100% sure you won't succeed.
begin killing a few kobolds. all they have is 1d4 SP? who cares, that's better than nothing. for now just go ahead and slash some more.

Dammit, you're 18, you got all your life ahead of you!

[Solaris]

I can emphasize. Backup is always nice, mostly because if you start to wimp out, your friends can push you on. :smalltongue:

Bah. Backup is for the mop-up part of the after-action.
Take that any way you like it.


Of course, there are ways to physically modify your appearance. Physical exercise. Training. Choice of clothes. But as far as physical appearances, I'll wager "queer eye for the straight guy" could make any male on this thread physically attractive with a little work.

For a... given value of 'attractive', I suppose. The women who marry into my family, they tend not to find what those cats do to be terribly attractive.


I'll never understand why girls are such a big deal (for those people who are not girls, mostly)

Reproductive instinct and social pressure. Males are generally hardwired to find femininity attractive and alluring. Couple that with growing up seeing the idea that a Real Man is not without a mate (or several, if we're getting loose with our definitions here), and there you have it.


There are a few interesting results, I'll give you that.
most are fake though.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Strippers need love, too. That's what eighteen-year-old privates are for.


On a somewhat more serious note, you shouldn't ever let your girlfriend ( or a lack of one ) define who you are. I've seen enough people get devastated after a breakup, or trying to get a girlfriend.

I think what men should do is find out what kind of person they want to be and work on that; instead of trying to be someone who will get a lot of girls. When you are who you want to be, you're bound to find someone who likes you for who you are, or find that you don't need one.

Verily, you speak the truth.

[Doomboy911]

Without them men would blindly walk the earth alone. The need for society would be filled but the need for companionship couldn't be met. You know unless they were all gay.

[BladeofOblivion]

Without them men would blindly walk the earth alone. The need for society would be filled but the need for companionship couldn't be met. You know unless they were all gay.

Also, we'd die out after one Generation. And that sucks. :smalltongue:

[Xyk]

Also, we'd die out after one Generation. And that sucks. :smalltongue:

Resisting the urge to make a socio-political comment...

On topic, we like girls because they are soft and cuddly and curvy while still being human-shaped and capable of conversation. Also secks.

Like a bunny rabbit that you can also talk to without being made fun of. Also secks.

Not a perfect analogy.

[Juggling Goth]

Well I figured I'd use the internet because RL is like firing a sniper rifle while the internet is a shotgun. The internet has a wider range.


but goblins only have a cr of 1/3 we'd need to kill hundreds of the buggers to level up and I am not going on a raiding party without a decent cleric and a ranger.

Your analogies are a bit worrying. It's not a battle; it's not killing people; it's not a military manoeuvre. Women are not the mass hordes of the enemy. Nobody wins or loses. It's mean to be fun for all concerned.

[Asta Kask]

Well said. It's more like trying to find a group to game with. Will they accept me? Can I live with their idiosyncracies?

[ZombyWoof]

I think what men should do is find out what kind of person they want to be and work on that; instead of trying to be someone who will get a lot of girls. When you are who you want to be, you're bound to find someone who likes you for who you are, or find that you don't need one.
I would like to be the kind of person who has sex more than occasionally. Call me a pig, but I prefer to think it's the base primal and biological urge to reproduce that's been ground into me across billions of years of evolution rather than any conscious decision.

Or maybe it's the desire to be accepted because I'm a social animal that's been ground into me across millions of years of evolution? About three orders of magnitude smaller, I suppose, but no less primal.

Listen, the big thing people need to realize about desiring a girlfriend/boyfriend/nfriend is this: it's a biological imperative to a) reproduce and b) be socially accepted. If you do not feel one or both of those, you are the exception not the rule. Also there's a good chance you're lying to yourself.

TL/DR: feeling bad about yourself because you're not socially accepted and don't have a girlfriend isn't a bad thing and doesn't make you desperate. It means you're responding to a few biological imperatives that have been, naturally speaking, ground into your genetic code.

[RPGuru1331]

Well said. It's more like trying to find a group to game with. Will they accept me? Can I live with their idiosyncracies?

Actually, yes, it's exactly like that.

@OP: It doesn't seem too legit to pursue a girlfriend because you just want to be able to say you have one. And either way, stop using battle metaphors. That's not what it's like. It's more like meeting a lot of people, not being particularly interested in most of them, til you and someone else click well on a personal level. You need more chemistry than you do at a gaming table, because you're looking for more intimacy, but the basic principle is the same; you're looking for someone you could see yourself being friends with, only moreso. Closer, more intimate, more caring, more sacrificing, and ultimately more rewarding. Good luck with that, not everyone finds it. But good luck just the same, if that's what you want.


it's a biological imperative to a) reproduce
Putting aside that you're wrong, even if you were right, that wouldn't be a reason to do it. That's a naturalistic fallacy.


b) be socially accepted.
You shouldn't do something you're uncomfortable doing just for the social acceptance though. There could be other great reasons (You may want to speak with tact out of a concern for the feelings of others; you may want a girlfriend because you legitimately want intimate companionship and can't get that from a man), but social acceptance shouldn't drive you to do things you are otherwise uninterested in, especially if it's a thing that requires as much energy and attention as a relationship.

[ZombyWoof]

Putting aside that you're wrong, even if you were right, that wouldn't be a reason to do it. That's a naturalistic fallacy.

Putting aside that you're wrong about what I'm trying to say, I'm right that reproduction is a primary drive of human existence.

[RPGuru1331]

Putting aside that you're wrong about what I'm trying to say, I'm right that reproduction is a primary drive of human existence.

Aping diction only works when it's well constructed.

But no, you're wrong, unless you have an incredibly novel spin on this old saw. Nobody has found a special sequence that specifically requires humans to themselves reproduce; thus, the best way to make this case is to look at the animal kingdom...

...which has a large number of species-wide reproductive strategies that are in fact explicitly not about each member reproducing as much as possible. As it happens, passing down similar genetic code can be done in a number of ways. IIRC numerous other simian families don't do so, even, so there's not good evidence that it's the human method either. But there's ample evidence that the claim is used to prop up jerkery.

None of that makes it wrong to want intimate companionship, but it's by no means a biological imperative.

[Asta Kask]

Why go to other simians? Show me a human culture where sexual reproduction is not the primary method of passing your genes down the generations.

[Juggling Goth]

Please, let's NOT talk about natural biological urges when we're sitting in houses, wearing clothes (if you're not, please don't tell me), typing at total strangers on the internet. To paraphrase the great Terry Pratchett, I don't eat my meat raw and sleep in a tree.


Why go to other simians? Show me a human culture where sexual reproduction is not the primary method of passing your genes down the generations.

I think RPGuru1331's talking about stuff like extended family arrangements being prioritised over individual reproduction. Like young gorilla males protecting the group even though the kids almost certainly aren't theirs, or the aunts who help raise young elephants.

But see above. I think it's utterly ridiculous to assume cultural/social relationship arrangements are the same thing as the biological urge to reproduce. Either we're so complicated that nothing is natural, or everything is natural on account of us non-artificial lifeforms doing it, but either way natural is irrelevant.

[RPGuru1331]

Why go to other simians? Show me a human culture where sexual reproduction is not the primary method of passing your genes down the generations.

If you want to claim it's a biological imperative that everyone reproduces (without apparent limit), you have made a fact claim that should be trivial to prove if it's true, because it would be cross-cultural. There is direct evidence to the contrary, with human reproduction typically being tied to economic and social factors; witness the dramatic decrease in birth rates post industrialization and especially past a certain threshold of medical care. You even get situations like are currently extant in Europe, where people feel so little need to reproduce the population is *falling*, or Japan, where the population charts are becoming a straight line. That doesn't strike me as good evidence that reproduction is such a massive biological imperative.

That all said, even if it were, it's considered a poor excuse for behavior in every other context.

[Asta Kask]

You even get situations like are currently extant in Europe, where people feel so little need to reproduce the population is *falling*, or Japan, where the population charts are becoming a straight line. That doesn't strike me as good evidence that reproduction is such a massive biological imperative.

You may be right here. Reproduction is probably not the biological imperative, the biological imperative is sex. If we look at a reason sex evolved to be a biological imperative, reproduction is the most likely choice. Yes there are people with no or very low sex drive, but that's normal variation for you. Anorectics don't prove that eating isn't a biological imperative.

Or we may be unclear on terms. What do you mean by "biological imperative", because I suspect we don't mean the same thing.

As for it not being a good excuse, absolutely. Just because something is (un-)natural doesn't mean it's good or bad. It has to be argued on its own merits. It might be more difficult to change something that is innate, but that's another matter.

[Solaris]

Your analogies are a bit worrying. It's not a battle; it's not killing people; it's not a military manoeuvre. Women are not the mass hordes of the enemy. Nobody wins or loses. It's mean to be fun for all concerned.

Just because hardly anyone dies doesn't make it any less of a 'win or lose' scenario. Don't forget, again, males generally are wired to think in terms of win or lose, predator and prey, problem and solution. We don't do nuance, we don't do compromise.


Please, let's NOT talk about natural biological urges when we're sitting in houses, wearing clothes (if you're not, please don't tell me), typing at total strangers on the internet. To paraphrase the great Terry Pratchett, I don't eat my meat raw and sleep in a tree.

We can stop discussing biological urges when we stop having them. Until then? We're living, breathing beings with functional instincts that compel us to be functional members of society. Quoting an author doesn't make you any less wrong.


But see above. I think it's utterly ridiculous to assume cultural/social relationship arrangements are the same thing as the biological urge to reproduce. Either we're so complicated that nothing is natural, or everything is natural on account of us non-artificial lifeforms doing it, but either way natural is irrelevant.

False dichotomy. You are a construction based on instincts and impulses functioning with the benefit of a mind capable of thought and decisions based on those instincts and impulses but still able to override them. It's not a dichotomy, it's a continuum. My dog is pretty instinct-based, but she can make decisions on her own. I'm on the other end of the spectrum - as a human, I make decisions on my own but have instincts influencing me, pushing me one way or another. Naturally, as a male human, my instincts are very overt and visible, whereas female humans don't have instincts that are so obvious.

[Moff Chumley]

Naturally, as a male human, my instincts are very overt and visible, whereas female humans don't have instincts that are so obvious.

Oof. Gonna have to disagree completely, immediately, and without reservation. Just because a female's instincts aren't quite as simple (operative word is "quite") does not mean they're not obvious, powerful, and very much present.

[Solaris]

Oof. Gonna have to disagree completely, immediately, and without reservation. Just because a female's instincts aren't quite as simple (operative word is "quite") does not mean they're not obvious, powerful, and very much present.

I never said they weren't powerful or present. I said they weren't obvious. Nesting, in particular, is strong. It's not as obvious as, say, the male's gaze's attraction to the fun bits or the teenaged boy's desire to copulate with pretty much anything that has a pulse.

[Xyk]

Look guys, it's another sexism thread!:smallbiggrin:

[Worira]

You know, there's a difference between not eating meat raw and sleeping in trees, and not eating or sleeping. I don't hit women over the head with my club and drag them back to my cave, but that doesn't mean my body isn't telling me "attractive human female sighted, mate with at once".

[RPGuru1331]

I never said they weren't powerful or present. I said they weren't obvious. Nesting, in particular, is strong. It's not as obvious as, say, the male's gaze's attraction to the fun bits or the teenaged boy's desire to copulate with pretty much anything that has a pulse.

Which is absolutely unlike the fascination with Justin Bieber, Robert Pattinson, Orlando Bloom, Johnny Depp...

Oi.


but that doesn't mean my body isn't telling me "attractive human female sighted, mate with at once".
Yeah, but your body tells you a lot of things that acting on is generally unwise or requires context; for instance, just because you're hungry is not cause to go scarf down the nearest food product (Regardless of who it belongs to, whether you have paid, etc).

[Solaris]

Which is absolutely unlike the fascination with Justin Bieber, Robert Pattinson, Orlando Bloom, Johnny Depp...

Of a somewhat different nature and you know it. Stop trying to be difficult.


Yeah, but your body tells you a lot of things that acting on is generally unwise or requires context; for instance, just because you're hungry is not cause to go scarf down the nearest food product (Regardless of who it belongs to, whether you have paid, etc).

1: We're not talking about the desire for fuud.
2: He just pointed out that while he has the instinct, he resists the impulse. Just because he has the ability to resist doesn't mean he doesn't have the impulse.
I'm... really not seeing your point. Please explain further.

[Kageru]

Just because hardly anyone dies doesn't make it any less of a 'win or lose' scenario. Don't forget, again, males generally are wired to think in terms of win or lose, predator and prey, problem and solution. We don't do nuance, we don't do compromise.

I don't want to get into the biological imperative debate (because I don't care about it and because I think that it's not relevant for the thread topic). But this is a generalization I find annoying. So do you have studies to back up that males are bad at making compromises and handling nuances? (Or rather don't do/use them.)

[RPGuru1331]

Of a somewhat different nature and you know it. Stop trying to be difficult.
Really. So when men gaze longingly at hot women, it's proof of their sexual attraction or their desire to copulate, but women doing this is... of a different nature. No, I know no such thing, and I'm not merely being difficult. In my book, both genders have sexual desires, and tend to stare at folks they want to sleep with if they think they can get away with it.


I'm... really not seeing your point. Please explain further.
It was asserted prior that the 'biological imperative to reproduce' excused behavior. Funnily enough, biological imperatives don't seem to excuse any other behavior, though.

[DeadManSleeping]

It was asserted prior that the 'biological imperative to reproduce' excused behavior. Funnily enough, biological imperatives don't seem to excuse any other behavior, though.

Given that the "behavior" that sexual urges were said to "excuse" in this thread was "feeling displeased with not being able to satisfy those urges", I'd say it works out just fine.

It's like "needing to eat" excuses "feeling uncomfortable after having ingested 0 calories over the past 2 days".

Also, it seems that the biological imperative to "get wasted" excuses a lot of behaviors that are only found in drunk people. I can't say I agree with that, but that's society for you.

[Doomboy911]

Oof. Gonna have to disagree completely, immediately, and without reservation. Just because a female's instincts aren't quite as simple (operative word is "quite") does not mean they're not obvious, powerful, and very much present.

But if their instincts are more complicated that means their energy is spread out more while a guy has more focus on one primal emotion like anger or sadness.

[Solaris]

I don't want to get into the biological imperative debate (because I don't care about it and because I think that it's not relevant for the thread topic). But this is a generalization I find annoying. So do you have studies to back up that males are bad at making compromises and handling nuances? (Or rather don't do/use them.)

Compared to females? Females do a lot better with subtle social interactions than males do. Body language, especially. Women do better at negotiating, men, not so much. These are, as any person with half a brain knows, generalities.
It's late, and I don't care to be going around digging for links looking for studies I saw many moons ago. You can disagree all you like, it really doesn't affect me in the least.
EDIT: Now that I've thought about it, I'm redacting the statement about compromising.


Really. So when men gaze longingly at hot women, it's proof of their sexual attraction or their desire to copulate, but women doing this is... of a different nature. No, I know no such thing, and I'm not merely being difficult. In my book, both genders have sexual desires, and tend to stare at folks they want to sleep with if they think they can get away with it.

With men, it's a desire to have sex. With women, it's a desire to partner up/romance and have sex. I'm not trying to say women don't want to have sex; quite the opposite. I'm saying that it's different on account of for most women, it's a much more emotional thing. They are more concerned about who it is they have sex with, possibly due to the fact that they can have to pay for it a lot more than the male does.


It was asserted prior that the 'biological imperative to reproduce' excused behavior. Funnily enough, biological imperatives don't seem to excuse any other behavior, though.

Really? Who said that? When did they say it excused anything? There's a difference between explaining and excusing, especially if we're asserting in the same breath that we're also thinking creatures capable of acting wholly against our instincts if necessary.

[Moff Chumley]

But if their instincts are more complicated that means their energy is spread out more while a guy has more focus on one primal emotion like anger or sadness.

Er... not really. A females motivation might be a little more complex than a male's, but that doesn't mean their manifestations are any more or less blunt.

[Mauve Shirt]

With men, it's a desire to have sex. With women, it's a desire to partner up/romance and have sex. I'm not trying to say women don't want to have sex; quite the opposite. I'm saying that it's different on account of for most women, it's a much more emotional thing. They are more concerned about who it is they have sex with, possibly due to the fact that they can have to pay for it a lot more than the male does.

That's silly. I don't ogle at males because I want to partner up/romance them. Their compatibility in a relationship doesn't factor into my thinking they look good.

[Solaris]

That's silly. I don't ogle at males because I want to partner up/romance them. Their compatibility in a relationship doesn't factor into my thinking they look good.

Would you turn down sex from some random guy you just met, whose sole criteria is that he looks good and is charming enough to not repel you?
Now what if he wasn't charming enough to repel you?
How about if there's no such thing as birth control?

Most guys I know, they wouldn't turn her down even if she barely had a personality and there was no birth control.

[Moff Chumley]

Solaris, would it be fair to say that most of the guys you know are pretty different from most of the guys the rest of us know? :smalltongue:

[Solaris]

Solaris, would it be fair to say that most of the guys you know are pretty different from most of the guys the rest of us know? :smalltongue:

I'll allow that we have vastly different social circles.

[Jallorn]

With men, it's a desire to have sex. With women, it's a desire to partner up/romance and have sex. I'm not trying to say women don't want to have sex; quite the opposite. I'm saying that it's different on account of for most women, it's a much more emotional thing. They are more concerned about who it is they have sex with, possibly due to the fact that they can have to pay for it a lot more than the male does.

I'm calling BS on this. As a man, I have a very different point of view than the one you're painting all men with. I'm 19 and have never been on a date (Prom doesn't count), and that's because I've never found someone that I've felt I could have a relationship with, who also was open to the possibility themselves. The sexist stereotype that all men want from a relationship is sex is one of the worst stereotypes of the modern world in my opinion. I have, in the past, wished that I had a girlfriend just so that I could have someone with whom I could share all the cruddy stuff that happened and my fears and irritations.

[Solaris]

I'm calling BS on this. As a man, I have a very different point of view than the one you're painting all men with. I'm 19 and have never been on a date (Prom doesn't count), and that's because I've never found someone that I've felt I could have a relationship with, who also was open to the possibility themselves. The sexist stereotype that all men want from a relationship is sex is one of the worst stereotypes of the modern world in my opinion. I have, in the past, wished that I had a girlfriend just so that I could have someone with whom I could share all the cruddy stuff that happened and my fears and irritations.

I never said that's all men want from a relationship. When a man wants a relationship, that's a whole other bird from wanting sex. Sex from a girlfriend/wife is just an added bonus. I said that sex is all males want from an attractive female. If it turns out there's more, score! If not, eh, at least you got sex.

[Savannah]

Most guys I know, they wouldn't turn her down even if she barely had a personality and there was no birth control.

I think it would be safe to say that I wouldn't touch most of the guys you know with a 10' pole even if they were the last man on earth :smalleek: That doesn't make them seem like particularily good examples when talking about finding a girlfriend...

Also, people are complex beings that are much more than just their sex. To say that males or females do [x] is to do a great disservice to all males or females.

[Solaris]

I think it would be safe to say that I wouldn't touch most of the guys you know with a 10' pole even if they were the last man on earth :smalleek: That doesn't make them seem like particularily good examples when talking about finding a girlfriend...

When they're going out looking for sex, they're not looking for girlfriends. They're looking for someone who's willing. This girl may or may not necessarily realize that this is just a one-night thing.
I've also seen them manage to bed quite a number of girls who thought they were wise to that 'Game' bullpucky and thought they'd found a guy who was different than all the rest. Frankly, it's guys like them who make it difficult for all the decent guys.


Also, people are complex beings that are much more than just their sex. To say that males or females do [x] is to do a great disservice to all males or females.

Yes, of course people are more complex than their sex. Of course there will be exceptions to every rule. Of course people are not instinct-driven automatons. But to deny us our instincts, to deny that we have them and that they influence our behavior, is to do a great disservice to our heritage as living beings.

[Whiffet]

Certain posts are making it sound like men are just sex-hungry maniacs who think of most women as nothing but sex objects. If the stereotypes about men and sex were true, then I would be very very uncomfortable around about half my acquaintances. Not friends, just acquaintances. Conversations would be like this.

Me: Hey, did you hear there was a fire at our old high school?
Guy: *staring at boobs* ... Uh huh.
Me: Good thing it's summer and no students were there, eh?
Guy: *still staring at boobs* Uh huh.
Me: Especially since they had to go through the tornado procedures for real end of last semester. You heard about that, right?
Guy: *still staring at boobs* Uh huh.

[Savannah]

Where did I ever say I was denying instincts? I do believe that biology has a much bigger impact on behavior than a lot of people think. However, behavior is hugely complex and varied, and biology is only one part of that. Sweeping statements such as saying that 'men think in terms of win or lose' are a disservice to men, by assuming that they are a single, homogeneous unit and are slaves to their biology (and, by the way, I'd be interested to see your studies, as that's not one I've heard before).

[RPGuru1331]

{Scrubbed}

[Solaris]

If I have to say one more time "There's no such thing as an absolute," with regards to what I'm saying as generalities, I think my head might explode. I'll set the webcam, have someone put it on Youtube. It'll be great, if somewhat lacking in substance.
Here's what: I'm making claims, not picking fights. Don't like it? Disagree with what I say? Make your statement. We can, in fact, disagree. We can continue to disagree. We can disagree until the ending of the world, and it will not change a single thing. That's why I'm trying to avoid repeating myself - and if you find yourself repeating something you've said, do me a favor and skip over it. I've no problems whatsoever trying to explain myself further. I understand I have the verbal acuity of a chipmunk, and I do have a tendency to shoot my metaphorical mouth off before thinking. What I have no patience for is responding to the same attack, over and over again.

@ Whiffet: Exaggeration by means of repetition, not intention. There's a difference between "Hardwired to find women attractive and like sex" and "Mouth-breathing, sex-obsessed ogler". Kinda like how we're wired to eat everything on our plate, on account of being evolved from hunter-gatherers who had a very real danger of starving to death all the time. Naturally, we don't have to do it, and many people don't. Many people do, thus - in part - the current obesity problem. It's more complicated than "People eat too much", but it's a factor.
Is that adequate explanation to see what I'm going for, here?

@ Savannah: Lo siento, I read too far. We're mostly arguing the same point here, I'm just not stating it rightly. Here's the apparent point of contention: Men think in terms of problems and solutions, not so much the sympathizing and the feelings. This trend's reduced in recent generations, apparently, and I know I'm very much an extreme on that segment. It's not a black-and-white thing, more shades of gray.
Like I told Guru, I'm not going to bother. Posting links gives only the illusion of credibility: It's the Internet, I could manufacture thirteen different websites supporting my claim and find another dozen, then find another two dozen countering it. Interested, research on your own. Not, don't. It's really not worth the effort for me. Notice, I'm not asking RPGuru to post any links to support his claims - if I really cared to, I could just Google it myself. I might start with "debunking Freud" or something similar.


{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
Oddly enough, I'm not a nice guy. Never claimed to be. Nice try, though.

And in point of fact, I can. I can imagine guys who rank sex about next to last on their criteria for a mate, right above "Breathing and has a pulse". I knew a guy who actually rated that pulse thing lower than sex. Creepy li'l feller, that one. I can imagine guys who care about nothing but sex. I can imagine their distaff counterparts, and everywhere in between. I do believe I mentioned continuums somewhere. Different levels of priority for different individuals doesn't change the fact that sex is a motivation. That's all I'm saying. No more, no less.

One last point, kid. I've yet to make a personal attack against you. What makes you think it's kosher to make personal attacks on me? The fact that I'm being obstinate? The fact that you vehemently disagree with me? I could be getting just as rude as you, insulting someone over something that matters not a whit, but instead I'm actually re-reading everything to avoid unintentionally insulting someone. Just, y'know, some unsolicited advice on being a better person.

[Jallorn]

If I have to say one more time "There's no such thing as an absolute," with regards to what I'm saying as generalities, I think my head might explode. I'll set the webcam, have someone put it on Youtube. It'll be great, if somewhat lacking in substance.
Here's what: I'm making claims, not picking fights. Don't like it? Disagree with what I say? Make your statement. We can, in fact, disagree. We can continue to disagree. We can disagree until the ending of the world, and it will not change a single thing. That's why I'm trying to avoid repeating myself - and if you find yourself repeating something you've said, do me a favor and skip over it. I've no problems whatsoever trying to explain myself further. I understand I have the verbal acuity of a chipmunk, and I do have a tendency to shoot my metaphorical mouth off before thinking. What I have no patience for is responding to the same attack, over and over again.

@ Whiffet: Exaggeration by means of repetition, not intention. There's a difference between "Hardwired to find women attractive and like sex" and "Mouth-breathing, sex-obsessed ogler". Kinda like how we're wired to eat everything on our plate, on account of being evolved from hunter-gatherers who had a very real danger of starving to death all the time. Naturally, we don't have to do it, and many people don't. Many people do, thus - in part - the current obesity problem. It's more complicated than "People eat too much", but it's a factor.
Is that adequate explanation to see what I'm going for, here?

@ Savannah: Lo siento, I read too far. We're mostly arguing the same point here, I'm just not stating it rightly. Here's the apparent point of contention: Men think in terms of problems and solutions, not so much the sympathizing and the feelings. This trend's reduced in recent generations, apparently, and I know I'm very much an extreme on that segment. It's not a black-and-white thing, more shades of gray.
Like I told Guru, I'm not going to bother. Posting links gives only the illusion of credibility: It's the Internet, I could manufacture thirteen different websites supporting my claim and find another dozen, then find another two dozen countering it. Interested, research on your own. Not, don't. It's really not worth the effort for me. Notice, I'm not asking RPGuru to post any links to support his claims - if I really cared to, I could just Google it myself. I might start with "debunking Freud" or something similar.


Oddly enough, I'm not a nice guy. Never claimed to be. Nice try, though.

And in point of fact, I can. I can imagine guys who rank sex about next to last on their criteria for a mate, right above "Breathing and has a pulse". I knew a guy who actually rated that pulse thing lower than sex. Creepy li'l feller, that one. I can imagine guys who care about nothing but sex. I can imagine their distaff counterparts, and everywhere in between. I do believe I mentioned continuums somewhere. Different levels of priority for different individuals doesn't change the fact that sex is a motivation. That's all I'm saying. No more, no less.

One last point, kid. I've yet to make a personal attack against you. What makes you think it's kosher to make personal attacks on me? The fact that I'm being obstinate? The fact that you vehemently disagree with me? I could be getting just as rude as you, insulting someone over something that matters not a whit, but instead I'm actually re-reading everything to avoid unintentionally insulting someone. Just, y'know, some unsolicited advice on being a better person.

I'm going to give you a cookie for this thought out and mature post. :smallbiggrin:

[Savannah]

Like I told Guru, I'm not going to bother. Posting links gives only the illusion of credibility: It's the Internet, I could manufacture thirteen different websites supporting my claim and find another dozen, then find another two dozen countering it. Interested, research on your own. Not, don't. It's really not worth the effort for me. Notice, I'm not asking RPGuru to post any links to support his claims - if I really cared to, I could just Google it myself. I might start with "debunking Freud" or something similar.

Quite frankly, "x is true, but I won't provide sources because there could be false information on the internet" does not do much to convince me that x is actually true. There are perfectly credible sources on the internet, and you only have to be moderately competent to identify which ones those are.

[Juggling Goth]

Look guys, it's another sexism thread!:smallbiggrin:

Mmm, isn't it just? Still, we can take comfort in the fact it took six pages to get there, I guess.

So I was reading Anne Fausto-Sterling's Myths of Gender, and it turns out that a bunch of the studies that find supposed hardwired differences between male and female brains are actually deeply flawed. Let's see what I can remember off the top of my head.

There were studies where the findings couldn't be reproduced, or collating lots of different studies found no clear trend, but of course "actually, we think that was a fluke" doesn't get the same kind of media attention as "hardwired differences explain why your girlfriend is such a bitch!" There was one where people performed differently on the exact same task depending on whether it was called a spatial awareness task or an empathy task. And then there was the spatial awareness task that relied on a subject alone in a dark room with an experimenter feeling comfortable saying "no, that's still not right, change it" over and over again - can you think of a reason other than hardwired differences why women might perform badly on this one? Because I can.

Ultimately, it's always going to be more complicated than evolutionary psychology/biological determinism likes to make out. Sweeping statements about What Women Are not only don't help you interact with incredibly complicated and unique individual people, they also alienate people, and are therefore a fairly jerkish thing to do. Let's not do that.

Another thing we could not do is talk like all males want females and only females and vice versa. That would be cool. Cos what am I looking for in a man? Keeping his clothes on and leaving me alone, that's what.

[Asta Kask]

And help opening stuck jars... :)

Look, none of this is getting the OP nookie. Isn't that what the thread should be focused on?

[Moff Chumley]

I just wanna say, this thread is kinda an interesting microcosm of GitP as a whole. We've gone from overreaction to reasonable advice to unsolicited goofing off to silly quibbling in seven pages... :smalltongue:

[RPGuru1331]

If I have to say one more time "There's no such thing as an absolute," with regards to what I'm saying as generalities, I think my head might explode.

Okay. It's not really going to change the transparency of your hedging at all, but if you feel your head must explode, do take precautions.

Seriously, you refuse to substantiate harmful stereotypes, then claim they're 'only generalities'? Just... don't offer such things, really.



I'm making claims
I'm inclined to agree. Would that your claims avail you a research grant, that you might produce some data to back them up.


Like I told Guru, I'm not going to bother. Posting links gives only the illusion of credibility: It's the Internet, I could manufacture thirteen different websites supporting my claim and find another dozen, then find another two dozen countering it
That's novel. I've seen a lot of interesting, and understandable, reasons not to cite one's claims, but the one I haven't seen was "It's totally useless because it's the internet". Are you familiar with google scholar? And you do realize that you can provide a citation if you have access to a database that isn't generally accessible on the net (Paywalls for academic databases spring to mind), even if you can't hotlink the article usefully, right? Academics have kept up pretty well with the blogosphere; that's why we have Google Scholar in the first place. "This is the internet, so you can't post credible links" is not a valid argument.


Oddly enough, I'm not a nice guy. Never claimed to be. Nice try, though.
Riiight, you weren't implying it at all.


Notice, I'm not asking RPGuru to post any links to support his claims - if I really cared to, I could just Google it myself. I might start with "debunking Freud" or something similar.
I should hope you don't seek to shift the burden of proof from your positive truth claims. That's not how these things work.


I do believe I mentioned continuums somewhere. Different levels of priority for different individuals doesn't change the fact that sex is a motivation. That's all I'm saying. No more, no less.
Look, if you frame everything in stereotypical terms, you cause actual harm. Look up Stereotype Threat, for one. Don't frame things in stereotypical terms. It's one of the many ways you can be a little bit better to people.


What makes you think it's kosher to make personal attacks on me? The fact that I'm being obstinate? The fact that you vehemently disagree with me? I could be getting just as rude as you, insulting someone over something that matters not a whit, but instead I'm actually re-reading everything to avoid unintentionally insulting someone. Just, y'know, some unsolicited advice on being a better person.
This is broken up into several parts of wrong.

1: What I said was that what you *said* indicated specific attitudes about sex, and that those attitudes themselves are typically taken as an indicator of ability in bed. It speaks poorly to stereotypical nice guys as well, who repeat those views. Just visit a MGTOW forum for examples. But that's not the same as a personal attack. That's telling you that what you said can easily, and understandably, be taken as a red flag to your skill in bed by an interesting party. This is relevant because what you said is often mimicked by the 'decent guys' you so disavow being, and, well, it contributes to the perception that women don't want 'decent guys'.

2: What makes you so sure you're not insulting me? You've been imputing a gender to me, after all; have you given any thought as to why that is? What the consequences may be if you're wrong? You may be right, you may not. But the assumption is generally harmful.

If I were a man, this idea that men are more or less sex-crazed beasts, even if I personally was not, would still be harmful to me. Think about this; substitute in any oppressed minority. Let's say bi people, that's a class I belong to. "With bisexuals, it's a desire to have sex. With straights, it's a desire to partner up/romance and have sex." Now, that's not to say that males, as a class, face anything like the oppression that bisexuals do, but a good barometer of whether what you're saying is legit is whether you could say it about an oppressed class of people and have it sound like a thing that is okay to say.

And of course, if I were a woman, this whole "Women are all about the relationships, except you, you crazy diamond you" is no better. Yeah, I get that it's *now* a 'generality', but then it's just another useless stereotype. Always treat a woman or a man as an individual is the thing you should be shooting for. *ALWAYS*. Do not seek to explain behavior in terms of these useless stereotypes. It does you no good. It does nobody any good.

3: I am reasonably certain that views that support, and ultimately, confine, women and men to stereotypical, irksome, or harmful gender roles matters more than a whit. That you are dismissing this speaks more about your level of 'rudeness' than it does about mine.

4: I really have no interest in your advice on how to be a better person, because your advice is focused on skin deep niceness, and not how to actually treat people well. I recommend you try to be less hurtful to marginalized classes, as that contributes in a small way to very large social ills.

[Asta Kask]

Tangentially relevant: The Decent Human being's guide to getting laid at atheist conferences (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/the_decent_human_beings_guide.php)

Now, he specifies atheist conference because the original encounter that sparked this was at an atheist conference, but I figure human beings are pretty much human beings and the similarities should be greater than the differences.

[Worira]

Tangentially relevant: The Decent Human being's guide to getting laid at atheist conferences (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/the_decent_human_beings_guide.php)

Now, he specifies atheist conference because the original encounter that sparked this was at an atheist conference, but I figure human beings are pretty much human beings and the similarities should be greater than the differences.

How is this even tangentially relevant? I'm honestly not seeing any reason for posting that other than to stir up flame wars.

[Solaris]

Warning: At some point I got annoyed.


I'm going to give you a cookie for this thought out and mature post. :smallbiggrin:

Mm, the best cookies taste like sarcasm and hate. :smalltongue:
Hey, you shoulda seen the first post I came up with. Even I thought it was too rude.


Quite frankly, "x is true, but I won't provide sources because there could be false information on the internet" does not do much to convince me that x is actually true. There are perfectly credible sources on the internet, and you only have to be moderately competent to identify which ones those are.

Moderately competent and not incredibly lazy. Alas, I'm feeling incredibly lazy right now. I thought I'd made that clear the first time I was asked for a source and declined to provide one. This is a discussion, not a term paper. Let's not confuse it for anything more than a momentary diversion, alright?


So I was reading Anne Fausto-Sterling's Myths of Gender, and it turns out that a bunch of the studies that find supposed hardwired differences between male and female brains are actually deeply flawed. Let's see what I can remember off the top of my head.

There were studies where the findings couldn't be reproduced, or collating lots of different studies found no clear trend, but of course "actually, we think that was a fluke" doesn't get the same kind of media attention as "hardwired differences explain why your girlfriend is such a bitch!" There was one where people performed differently on the exact same task depending on whether it was called a spatial awareness task or an empathy task. And then there was the spatial awareness task that relied on a subject alone in a dark room with an experimenter feeling comfortable saying "no, that's still not right, change it" over and over again - can you think of a reason other than hardwired differences why women might perform badly on this one? Because I can.

I'll take a look at it at some point. She might be right, but I've always been suspicious of someone claiming a whole lot of other scientists are wrong. It's entirely possible that she's right, of course, especially if she provides evidence to back it up, but still.
There are still things that are demonstrably different. Example (http://www.gobankingrates.com/debt/women-have-more-debt-but-its-men-who-wont-pay-you-back/). (I like the disgruntled ex-husband who posted at the bottom. He made me laugh, and it wasn't with him.)
I'm aware it doesn't directly support my conclusions, a'course, but bear with me. How, if we're all supposed to be alike regardless of gender, do we get some significant differences in genders with debt? With suicide? With depression? With differences of career? I'll accept that I've drawn the wrong conclusions if it's demonstrated I have (no, sorry, probably not going to happen here - I'm rather mulish like that), but one book isn't going to counter anything except precisely what it counters: Bad science.
It also helps support my opinion that putting up links to this-or-that study is largely a pointless exercise, 'cause whatever experiment Group A comes up with, Group B will refute - whether or not Group A was right or wrong.


Ultimately, it's always going to be more complicated than evolutionary psychology/biological determinism likes to make out. Whence came this eagerness to view women as the mysterious Other? Sweeping statements about What Women Are not only don't help you interact with incredibly complicated and unique individual people, they also alienate people, and are therefore a fairly jerkish thing to do. Let's not do that.

Of course it's going to be more complicated than "Guys want to screw anything with a pair of boobs". Absolutely. I've never said anything differently, and if I have kindly point it out so I can amend or clarify it. I'm just bewildered at the anger aroused by the suggestion that males and females don't think entirely alike. Similarly on almost every respect, of course, we're all human, but not exactly alike.
And yes, yes, of course I know that there's a whole rainbow of LGBT. I'm... not sure what you're getting at. Last I checked, gay guys were still guys, they're just more interested in male than female.


I'm inclined to agree. Would that your claims avail you a research grant, that you might produce some data to back them up.
It's amazing how little inclined I am to think any of this is worth a research grant and even less inclined to put that much effort into it, so...


That's novel. I've seen a lot of interesting, and understandable, reasons not to cite one's claims, but the one I haven't seen was "It's totally useless because it's the internet". Are you familiar with google scholar? And you do realize that you can provide a citation if you have access to a database that isn't generally accessible on the net (Paywalls for academic databases spring to mind), even if you can't hotlink the article usefully, right? Academics have kept up pretty well with the blogosphere; that's why we have Google Scholar in the first place. "This is the internet, so you can't post credible links" is not a valid argument.
Did... did you just suggest I pay to cite links, because you want them for some utterly inconsequential argument on the Internet?
"It's useless because it's the Internet and there's no accountability" is not a valid argument for you. It's not an argument you like. It works plenty fine for me. Guess which one I care about. Come on. Just guess. If our roles were reversed, I couldn't care less if you did manage to scrounge up something to support your position.


Riiight, you weren't implying it at all.
I don't believe it's unreasonable to ask you to source that claim. You're also falling into the trap of looking at implications with me. Generally a bad thing, considering how nonstandard I am with a lot of behaviors.
But hey, maybe you know me better than I do. I mean, you've only read a few things I've posted on a message board, and I've just known myself my entire life. You certainly have more insight to my person and behaviors than I do.
Oh, wait.


1: What I said was that what you *said* indicated specific attitudes about sex, and that those attitudes themselves are typically taken as an indicator of ability in bed. It speaks poorly to stereotypical nice guys as well, who repeat those views. Just visit a MGTOW forum for examples. But that's not the same as a personal attack. That's telling you that what you said can easily, and understandably, be taken as a red flag to your skill in bed by an interesting party. This is relevant because what you said is often mimicked by the 'decent guys' you so disavow being, and, well, it contributes to the perception that women don't want 'decent guys'.
I think you've spent entirely too much time on this, and significantly more than I have. See, I haven't dealt with any 'nice guys' in years. You're also in the middle of arguing against me employing stereotypes (I'm... not, but we'll roll with it for the sake of this point) and then you turn around and employ one on me. {Scrubbed}


2: What makes you so sure you're not insulting me? You've been imputing a gender to me, after all; have you given any thought as to why that is? What the consequences may be if you're wrong? You may be right, you may not. But the assumption is generally harmful.
Well, yes. It's an assumption. Put a gender icon there so I don't have to guess.
Or would you prefer 'it'?

I give up, how am I in any way harmful to you? I've had this discussion before, and I remain unconvinced. My basic position is this: My words have no affect, no bearing on you unless you allow them to. I do believe I recall the opposing side's arguments, so it's perfectly alright if we let that one slide.


I am reasonably certain that views that support, and ultimately, confine, women and men to stereotypical, irksome, or harmful gender roles matters more than a whit. That you are dismissing this speaks more about your level of 'rudeness' than it does about mine.

Remember when I said I wasn't a nice guy?
A'course, considering I'm not at all surprised when I encounter an exception to one of these generalities, I find it rather difficult to see how I'm 'confining' anyone to anything. Do I go about insisting people conform to my pre-established guidelines if they do not comply? Have I employed thought police of which I am unaware? Holy crap, am I the supreme dictator of the universe again? Dagnabbit, I thought I managed to foist that job off on Xenu!


I really have no interest in your advice on how to be a better person, because your advice is focused on skin deep niceness, and not how to actually treat people well. I recommend you try to be less hurtful to marginalized classes, as that contributes in a small way to very large social ills.
Wait, what? How the hell do you go from 'has odd ideas about men and women' to 'oppresses marginalized classes'? {Scrubbed}


How is this even tangentially relevant? I'm honestly not seeing any reason for posting that other than to stir up flame wars.
Honestly, it's more relevant than the last page or so. I just read the article itself, not the comments, but it seemed a reasonable bit of advice for the OP.

[Asta Kask]

How is this even tangentially relevant? I'm honestly not seeing any reason for posting that other than to stir up flame wars.

Because the OP was about getting a girlfriend and this post is about how to chat someone up? It's not my fault the thread has meandered into 'what is sexism' territory.

[pendell]

If I have to say one more time "There's no such thing as an absolute," with regards to what I'm saying as generalities, I think my head might explode. I'll set the webcam, have someone put it on Youtube. It'll be great, if somewhat lacking in substance.
Here's what: I'm making claims, not picking fights. Don't like it? Disagree with what I say? Make your statement. We can, in fact, disagree. We can continue to disagree. We can disagree until the ending of the world, and it will not change a single thing. That's why I'm trying to avoid repeating myself - and if you find yourself repeating something you've said, do me a favor and skip over it. I've no problems whatsoever trying to explain myself further. I understand I have the verbal acuity of a chipmunk, and I do have a tendency to shoot my metaphorical mouth off before thinking. What I have no patience for is responding to the same attack, over and over again.


Well said.


Certain posts are making it sound like men are just sex-hungry maniacs who think of most women as nothing but sex objects.


Hmm .. I'm a man who's been married for 17 years, so I might know a thing or two about this.

When *I* was in my teens and early twenties, I WAS sex mad. Absolutely raving, crazy, mad for sex. I didn't even care that much about whether it was a male or female -- I just needed that itch scratched. I heard a preacher once say something like a 15 year old boy would have sex with a toaster if you put lipstick on it. While I can't speak for all males, that was certainly the case in my particular example.

It wasn't that I couldn't talk to females or treat them as fellow human beings. I could and did. It's just -- well, that vampire metaphor, that blood-hunger. It's a good metaphor for the sex drive, at least in my case.

Well, I got married.

I soon found out that my wife's needs and desires were quite different from mine.

Ya see, I had an extremely trying physical need. She was hungry too. I figured we would do what any couple hungry for food would do -- pitch in and dig in. Whenever we were hungry, we had the means to feed each other.

That phase lasted a few days or weeks.

After the novelty wore off, I soon found that Susan had a higher standard than just "I'm hungry. Let's eat!'. She felt used. She felt like I was treating her like a ... kleenex to blow my nose on or something. She wanted to be treated as something MORE than a vehicle for my physical appetite. She wanted to be treated like a human being. She wanted all the other components of the fairytale romance. She wanted someone to bring her flowers, bring her candy. Make her feel like a million bucks. Make her feel that she was valued as a human being, and as a friend.

It wasn't that I was averse to such things. It was just that I didn't see what they had to do with satisfying appetite. But I found that, at least in Susan's case, the presentation was as important as the food itself. It's the difference between a quick bite to eat at Mcdonald's and a candlelit dinner at her favorite restaurant.

And so, I learned that in the context of marriage , the wife must be seduced. Every time. It's not a matter of simply satisfying hunger. I've heard it said that "sex begins in the kitchen." It's true, at least for me. I dunno how it works for other people, but for me I found that sex in a married relationship is a direct outgrowth of the emotional health of the relationship. If you want a healthy sex drive, you have to spend the time to seduce, to woo, and to do nice things even if there's no direct payoff.

It's much, MUCH easier for a woman to sleep with a man that she believes cares for her and treats her right, a man she respects, then a man who ignores her except when his physical needs need attending to. In my experience, any way. IME, if you want to have sex, it starts with treating her well and romancing her days before and after the event, building that emotional relationship, building the bond of trust.

Trust -- to my mind, that's the biggest part, even more than romance. IME, a woman really doesn't like to sleep with a man she doesn't trust. Winning that trust, and keeping it, is even more vital than the flowers and candy and the consideration and the gentleness.

Now, I really didn't have that need for emotional closeness. I just had a biological imperative saying "MATE NOW". I had two ways that I could have dealt with this:

1) Meet her where she was at, meet her emotional, mental and physical needs and treat sex as one component of a healthy relationship.
2) Attempt to use her solely for physical gratification, and when that started to drop off, to seek out others who would. That would be pornography or prostitutes or one night stand in singles bars.

I took the first route. It was less physically gratifying in the short run, but it gave me an emotional relationship which I found genuinely more satisfying in the long run, giving the physical act that much more spice and charm.There's a special passion, a special spice, in a long term relationship with one person, if you both put in the effort to care for each other long enough. Going from partner to partner may provide temporary satisfaction, but that has the risk of disease and little kids left around.

I still do not find monogamy natural. If I gave in to my base instincts, to my default biological programming, I could easily go from flower to flower like a honey bee, with a sampling of young males thrown in to boot. But I choose not to, because I am a human and can rise above my instincts to some extent. I choose to be satisfied with one woman, not only because of the resulting deep emotional relationship but because multiple partners can be very expensive in terms of health and money. Plus, it would cut into my gaming time :).

There was a bonus: We built an emotional relationship, where we are best friends on every level. And now that I'm 40, the physical component is fading somewhat but the other bits of the relationship still endure, go stronger. I suspect it likely that the emotional/mental/spiritual intimacy will continue long into our old age, when both of us have been through the equivalent of menopause and have no great need for physical intimacy any more.

That's another reason for me to go the route I did -- the drive does slow down. I can now go for days without feeling the need to bang my head against a wall out of sheer frustrated desire. And now that the sex drive is becoming a less important part of the relationship I find we have the OTHER important parts of the relationship. Those grow stronger as the purely physical fades.

So building that relationship was well worth doing, even if it does cut down on the short-term opportunities.

The takeaway I got from all of this is that men and women are different on a biological level. We have different chemicals in our blood stream, different levels of muscle mass, wired differently. We do not instantly understand the way the other person thinks, because they literally aren't built the way they are.

Learning what the other person's needs are requires empathy and a willingness to listen.

Learning what makes the other person tick -- and no general description works, you have to find out what makes your specific partner tick -- and finding ways to satisfy them while meeting your own needs is the essence of a long-term relationship.

Getting back to the OP -- I'm hoping this information on MY experience in finding and acquiring a girlfriend/wife, together with some of the lessons we learned along the way, helps you in your own search and building your own relationship. Take it with a grain of salt. Men and women may have some basic commonalities but everyone is different.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kageru]

Regarding the whole instinct debate, wouldn't it be more appropriate to split it off in a separate thread? After all this thread was more about how one can find a partner, not why we want a partner. Sure what each side wants in a relationship is relevant to finding a partner, so in a way it's relevant whether males have a higher sex drive or females think about relationships and not just "that guy is hot" when they ogle someone. But in the end the variation between individuals is to high to say something more useful than "the other person might have other priorities in an relationship than you and might have a higher or lower sex drive than you". (The awareness that the people you interact with might be different from yourself is important, but I hope everyone who is old enough to search for a partner already realized that.)
Knowing differences between males and females whether genetic or social constructs is useful if you are studying the behavior of big groups. But if your approach to dating isn't similar to using cluster bombs, the number of females you try to date will probably to low to profit from statistics.
And the harmfulness of perpetuating stereotypes might be an important topic, but isn't really relevant to the original thread topic.


Compared to females? Females do a lot better with subtle social interactions than males do. Body language, especially. Women do better at negotiating, men, not so much. These are, as any person with half a brain knows, generalities.
It's late, and I don't care to be going around digging for links looking for studies I saw many moons ago. You can disagree all you like, it really doesn't affect me in the least.
EDIT: Now that I've thought about it, I'm redacting the statement about compromising.
*shrugs* Just as well, to be honest I didn't really expect you to back up your claims. This way I won't have to actually have to argue you point. (I have started to avoid serious online discussion, they tend to be frustrating and useless. And I write english texts much slower than german ones.) I don't mind that my disagreement doesn't affect you, after all I don't care about you claims either since they are unsubstantiated.

[averagejoe]

The Mod They Call Me: This has gotten pretty far afield. Thread locked.