Help fitting my PC into a gestalt game

[Lothalis]

Hello again knowledgeable sages, I am in need of more advice.

Our regular DM has moved and we have found another DM. This one is running a 4 PC re-occurring character game in which he wants us all to play Gestalt. (I question his motives too hence I’m here) any race with no level adjustment (I’m thinking elf or human)

I am a retired DM, with no gestalt experience…I’m at a loss as to where I fit in to the party.

We have so far:

Human: Favoured Soul//Barbarian – Melee Striker build
Human Artificer//Fighter – Distance blaster build
Race-build Were-tiger//Rogue – Skill monkey - Ranged build

I had originally thought to try merging the CA Ninja with the RO Ninja and it looked fairly strong with both the sudden strike and the sneak attack (the DM said both are different abilities therefore I get them both) the Ki abilities from CA and the full BAB really fleshed out nicely in a decent melee based supporter for our Barb//Fav.

However much of the things I could do the Rogue could do better, especially around lv 4.

I was then looking at the Marshal//Fighter for a frontline tank with power attack and cleave to help with the little whelps allowing the big dudes to be taken down by the striker. My auras would assist the party as well (looking at the UMD for art and rog) and all in all being a massive support for all. However in a 4 PC party is there room for a commander?

All in all I want to help the frontline so the melee is not all left for our Barbarian guy since he is our healer until we buy healing potions. I would play a type of healer (cleric ect) but in my youth (love that AD&D) I was always “that guy you called” when an adventure was about to happen and when I arrived a character was already made named healer number 14. It left a bad taste in my mouth for healing classes as a whole and I hate playing them.

My Stat rolls are:

14,18,14,16,14,14 (after moving 2 around, the DM does allow us to move 1 for one in stats)

Also just as a FYI, the DM will only allow us to multi class ONCE. He haves builds that have 5 classes, so if you present a build please keep this in mind.

All suggestions are welcome.

Thank you all.

[Duskranger]

Maybe a stupid idea but what about a swordsage2/cleric2//druid4 straight up? And be the support melee guy with full healing capability and battlefield control.

18 in wis, taking a small race putting the 16 in dex and your solid build is done. Instead of cleric you could also go full swordsage//druid for more ToB fun in wildshaped form.

You want to help the frontline but not be a healing class than sir there's always the crusader for one side, take incarnate on the other and your wins are made of even more winning.

[Salanmander]

It looks like your favored soul//barbarian is probably capable of some decent healing, unless he's avoided healing spells. What you don't have is arcane support. Have you considered putting something arcane on one side?

The biggest drawback of something like rogue//ninja is that, while you double up on one of your main abilities, you gain very little other benefit of gestalt. Sure, the rogue//ninja will super extra mega kill everything it gets the drop on, but the rogue//duskblade will have more hitpoints, higher AC, better saves, hit things more regularly, AND be able to do a shocking grasp sneak attack that does as much damage as the sneak attack/sudden strike until level 11 (and can be done with flanking).

So yeah, you're lacking arcane support, and gestalt is best when your two sides synergize well, but have very different base stats (hit dice, BAB, etc.). I would make yourself a tasty tasty gish build as only gestalt can. Duskblade//wizard, or marshal//wizard, or something.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Gold Dwarf, Marshal 20// Wizard (Conjurer) 5/ Runesmith 5/ Wizard (or full casting prestige class) 10 should be the final build. At 6th level you'll no longer suffer arcane spell failure for armor or shields, so just stick to Mage Armor until then. you'll have decent AC and party-assist abilities and can throw around plenty of spells. I'd use the PH2 ACF to get Abrupt Jaunt, and also consider the Focused Specialist variant in CM to get more spells/day, in which case your prohibited schools should be Enchantment, Evocation, and probably Necromancy. Grease, Web, and Glitterdust should be your spells of choice, and Stinking Cloud is pretty good once you level up. Your ability scores after racial adjustments should be Str 14, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 16, and put all of your level-up points into Int.

[SleepyShadow]

Wizard/Artificer would be excellently overpowered. However, that requires your DM to allow Ebberon campaign setting material.

Being a bit of an otaku, I find the idea of CA Ninja/Rokugan Ninja to be awesome. If casters aren't your thing, then I'd say just do this. The Rule of Cool/Fun always trumps optimization.

However, a good compromise would be Wizard/Rokugan Ninja. Rokugan Ninja does not have armor proficiency, so no loss there, however they do have a Ninja Dodge AC bonus that gets better as they level up. Not only that, but they synergize fairly well. Rokugan Ninjas have abilities that function off of stats important to a Wizard as well.

If you go this route, do not forget that Sneak Attack damage is applied with any spell that requires an attack roll so long as it would qualify as a Sneak Attack. For example, set up a flank with your Soulbarian and let loose with a Shocking Grasp or other touch attack spell.

[Morbis Meh]

If you want to help with tanking might I suggest a human Crusader4/Cleric 1/ Ruby Knight Windicator 10/Crusader5//Duskblade build, you would have some arcane casting ability, be a support healer and full fledged tank (Duskblades get the ability to negate ACP in armor and if you take a feat you can wear heavy armor and cast). If you would prefer going as an elf then try this build: Crusader10/Eternal Blade 10//Duskblade. Feats that I would suggest: Armored Caster, Extra granted maneuver, if you going RKV route as a human I suggest taking divine might or better yet travel devotion, knowledge devotion is great with the duskblade and if you're lawful then law devotion is good too.

[kharmakazy]

Run a Savage species monster class up one side, and a class up the other. Something like Troll or Imp will net you regen. Imps get invis and flight too.

[Lothalis]

Thanks for the suggestions so far, I really like the idea of the Ninja//Wizard, then adding a dip into fighter just for the feats.

Believe me there are cool builds in here, but as per the DM I’m only allowed 3 classes.

I was talking to one of my friends just recently and they heard there may be quite a bit of city adventure going on not just dungeon crawl. Now I don’t want to optimize to one side of the adventures but would an Urban Ranger//Feat Rogue make sense here? Rather than bolster the trap finding skills, play up the town talk. Later taking a dip in wizard to add some arcane.

Normally for this I would just go Ranger//Bard but bards (mostly mine) suffer an acute allergy to Iron…specifically in places like my spleen, frontal cortex and one unfortunate Half-elf died in a well (remember kids swim and climb are not always dump points!)

I figure this should give me the ability to go the 2 weapon fighting style to support my Soulbarian, use the feats to chain together massive dodge and strike (Riposte, Deceptive dodge ect…) as well as access to one of the highest skill points in the game to be useful.

I do want to kinda stick to the melee end of things, for the longest time I was looking at the ninja//ninja going OMG Super ninja assassin FTW! Then I thought about it and if I’m having a rogue and an artificer firing into combat, do I really want to be invisible?

Back on point I’m looking now at RO ninja//Wizard, Urban Ranger//Feat Rogue or Duskblade//Rogue.

[SleepyShadow]

I was talking to one of my friends just recently and they heard there may be quite a bit of city adventure going on not just dungeon crawl. Now I don’t want to optimize to one side of the adventures but would an Urban Ranger//Feat Rogue make sense here? Rather than bolster the trap finding skills, play up the town talk. Later taking a dip in wizard to add some arcane.

Although the idea sounds cool, this build is a bit redundant given the rest of your party. You already have plenty of melee power, plus the Were-Tiger Rogue covers the tracking and skill-set.


Normally for this I would just go Ranger//Bard but bards (mostly mine) suffer an acute allergy to Iron…specifically in places like my spleen, frontal cortex and one unfortunate Half-elf died in a well (remember kids swim and climb are not always dump points!)

I figure this should give me the ability to go the 2 weapon fighting style to support my Soulbarian, use the feats to chain together massive dodge and strike (Riposte, Deceptive dodge ect…) as well as access to one of the highest skill points in the game to be useful.

A Ranger//Bard would be a fairly good support character, able to buff the party with songs and spells, while also providing some support for the Soulbarian in melee without outshining him. If you play this, remember two things: Without extra damage (Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, etc), TWF is sub-optimal for this character whenever you are not fighting a favored enemy. Secondly, your HP and AC are not going to be fantastic, so be careful not to wade into battle against more than you can handle.


I do want to kinda stick to the melee end of things, for the longest time I was looking at the ninja//ninja going OMG Super ninja assassin FTW! Then I thought about it and if I’m having a rogue and an artificer firing into combat, do I really want to be invisible?

I would not worry about that too much. Depending on your level, the blasters will only have single target attacks, or the Artificer will have already made Goggles of True Sight for the entire party.


Back on point I’m looking now at RO ninja//Wizard, Urban Ranger//Feat Rogue or Duskblade//Rogue.

I'll break these three down by their strengths and weaknesses, not only of their own, but their compatibility with the rest of the group as well.

Urban Ranger//Feat Rogue: Redundant given the current party when in any environment other than a city.

Dusk Blade//Rogue: In a similar vein to the RO Ninja//Wizard, but a much weaker version thereof in my opinion. Your spell casting will be significantly weaker, and your melee capability will not be significantly improved. The only advantage this build has over its competitor is the Arcane Channeling ability. However, losing so much casting potential, as well as ability synergy, is not worth one class ability.

Rokugan Ninja//Wizard: My money is still on this one. You would be filling an important roll (primary arcane caster), plus your Ninja abilities will not step on the toes of anyone else in the party. Game mechanics aside, this combo also has incredible fluff potential: Anime-style ninja tricks at their finest :smallbiggrin:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd go Psychic Warrior//Feat Rogue. Use Half-Giant, with the half-giant racial class in Complete Psionic (page 148), which would lose one class level at your 2nd character level. I'd lose a Rogue level there, since skill ranks can catch up but manifesting can't, plus Rogue 20 is a dead level anyway if you get that far.

Half-Giant, Psychic Warrior 20// Feat Rogue 1/ Half-Giant 1/ Feat Rogue 18
Combat Reflexes (1), EWP: Kusari-Gama (DMG) (PW1), Combat Expertise (R1), Improved Trip (PW2), Up The Walls (3), Shield Specialization (R2), Heavy Armor Optimization (R4), Deflective Armor (PW5), Focused Shield (6), Shield Ward (R6), Power Attack (PW8), Improved Bull Rush (R8), Knock Back (9), Linked Power (PW11), Greater Heavy Armor Optimization (R10), Dodge (12), Mobility (R12), Psionic Dodge (PW14), Elusive Target (15), Spring Attack (R14), Whirlwind Attack (PW17), fighter feat (R16), feat (18), fighter feat (R18), fighter or psionic feat (PW20)
Everything after Greater Heavy Armor Optimization can be replaced with whatever you want, I was running out of choices there. Maybe pick up some archery feats in the later levels, or the Mage Slayer line if you're not using transparency.

An alternative (better) build would probably include Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d), but it would be a bit complicated:
1. Psychic Warrior 1// Feat Rogue 1, EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus
2. Psychic Warrior 2// Half-Giant 1, Combat Expertise
3. Psychic Warrior 3// Feat Rogue 2, Improved Trip, Dodge
4. Psychic Warrior 4// Feat Rogue 3
5. Psychic Warrior 5// Feat Rogue 4, Mobility, Psionic Dodge
6. Psychic Warrior 6// Feat Rogue 5, Psionic Weapon
7. Psychic Warrior 7// Feat Rogue 6, Power Attack
8. Psychic Warrior 8// Psychic Weapon Master 1, Heavy Armor Optimization
9. Feat Rogue 7// Psychic Weapon Master 2, Deflective Armor
10. Psychic Warrior 9// Psychic Weapon Master 3
11. Feat Rogue 8// Psychic Weapon Master 4, Improved Critical
12. Psychic Warrior 10// Psychic Weapon Master 5, Psionic Meditation
13. Feat Rogue 9// Psychic Weapon Master 6
14. Psychic Warrior 11// Psychic Weapon Master 7, Linked Power
15. Feat Rogue 10// Psychic Weapon Master 8, Overchannel, Greater Heavy Armor Optimization
16. Psychic Warrior 12// Psychic Weapon Master 9
17. Feat Rogue 11// Psychic Weapon Master 10
18. Psychic Warrior 13// Feat Rogue 12, Talented, Elusive Target
19. Psychic Warrior 14// Feat Rogue 13, Persistent Power (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf) (d20 modern) if possible, otherwise Deep Impact
20. Psychic Warrior 15// Feat Rogue 14, Improved Toughness

That gets 20th level Psychic Warrior manifesting, great tanking ability, and crowd control via trips with powerful build and possibly Expansion. You get Rogue skill points for 14/20 levels, Psychic Weapon Master skill points for 5/20 levels, and Psychic Warrior skill points for 1/20 levels. Psychic Weapon Master is just amazing, if you can use it then definitely do so. You won't be able to do as much damage as the Soulbarian, but you'll definitely contribute to the party's success with your amazing ability to trip everything within 20 (30) ft. with (augmented) Expansion.

[McSmack]

I think bard//crusader would be a fun choice. The old Dragonfire Inspiration build. That's quite a bit of healing right there. I'm sure you can find the build around here somewhere, as I'm away from books right now. Maybe take that bard ACF from Complete Divine that lets you use your muscal mojo to rock the healing.

You'd have:
Plenty of skills.
Great utility spells.
Moderate healing ability.
Crazy melee goodness and
Amazing party buffs.

[TurtleKing]

Another option is instead of Marshall use Dragon Shaman. With one of the auras you can help with the healing. The other auras can also help out. Then there is your Dragon Breath. Dragon Shamans do make good frontline combatants.

[dspeyer]

I second bard//crusader. It gives you staying and hitting power to match a barbarian, mass-buff through bardsong, white raven and devoted spirit, plus the utility casting and social skills that your party needs. You can even pick up a wand of CLW if you have to.