How to deal with an unprepared DM and questionable rules

[hobbitkniver]

So last time we were scheduled to play, our DM didn't show up and wouldn't return any calls so we went to his house. His girlfriend told us he was going to be gone for 5 weeks working some camp counselor job. We ended up having one of our players pull out a campaign he ran from years ago and his character had to stay with us because we needed another party member. His campaign was okay for the circumstances, but I doubt some of his rules.

First of all, he allowed a 20 on a ranged touch attack spell do double damage. I can't say I have proof this is wrong, but I've never heard of it before. I gave him the beneift of the doubt on this one. I'm not sure if the next was correct or not, but I'm guessing not. Basically, the dual-weilding rogue had 6/1 BAB and this enabled him to get four sneak attacks basically every round. This is just really annoying because he takes literally 3 minutes for every turn and sometimes we get to him again before he's finished. For spellcasters, we could cast two spells in one turn as a full attack. I doubt that these overpowered party mechanics were the correct way to do things by the book, but I was wondering how this could be possible without quicken spell every turn.

[PollyOliver]

For the first, from the SRD:


If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.

For the second, if the rogue has the feat improved two-weapon fighting (and +6 bab, which you said he does, and 17 dex, and regular two-weapon fighting to meet the requirements), yes, he can make two on-hand and two off-hand attacks as a full attack action. If he's moving and attacking, he only gets one attack. Normal sneak attack rules still apply.

For the third, not unless they have a feat for that or one of the spells is a swift or move action spell. Most spells are standard actions, and you only get one of those per round. If you have quicken (or are casting a spell with a swift action time), you can cast one swift action spell per round as well. But in general, casting is a standard action, and in each round you get a standard, a move, and a swift. Depending on your group, this could result in serious shenanigans.

Edit: honestly, though, if he was DMing on the fly, I'd give him a break and just point it out next time for the future without debating what's already happened. It's hard enough when you're prepared.

[hobbitkniver]

Hmm I never knew about the spells. So can a rogue make literally 4 sneak attacks in one round? Plus the Dm lets him use his natural weapon to sneak attack so he's basically tri-wielding.

Edit: There is one more thing, he doesn't play with the rule where dying sucks and you lose experience, and I can raise dead. So it doesn't matter that much if someone dies anymore, right? Theres no reason to fear death just a TPK.

[Telonius]

First of all, he allowed a 20 on a ranged touch attack spell do double damage. I can't say I have proof this is wrong, but I've never heard of it before. I gave him the beneift of the doubt on this one. I'm not sure if the next was correct or not, but I'm guessing not.

This one is right (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm).


A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
...
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.



Basically, the dual-weilding rogue had 6/1 BAB and this enabled him to get four sneak attacks basically every round. This is just really annoying because he takes literally 3 minutes for every turn and sometimes we get to him again before he's finished.

It's certainly possible to get four sneak attacks in one round if he takes Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting. This can happen at ninth level at the earliest (if he's a single-classed Rogue). "Every Round" is a little less believable. In order for a Rogue to get sneak attack, he has to either be flanking with somebody, or the enemy has to be denied their dexterity bonus to AC. (This can happen in several ways; being invisible or acting during a surprise round are the most common). If a Rogue wants to get all four sneak attacks in one round, he usually has to start the round flanking with somebody. If the DM was just applying Sneak Attack to every hit, he was doing it wrong.


For spellcasters, we could cast two spells in one turn as a full attack. I doubt that these overpowered party mechanics were the correct way to do things by the book, but I was wondering how this could be possible without quicken spell every turn.

Without Quicken Spell, burning all the charges in a Belt of Battle, or using some other special item to let you do that? I don't know of any way to achieve it. Purely a houserule. Much more imbalancing than any other houserule I've seen in recent memory, too.

[kharmakazy]

Hmm I never knew about the spells. So can a rogue make literally 4 sneak attacks in one round? Plus the Dm lets him use his natural weapon to sneak attack so he's basically tri-wielding.

Edit: There is one more thing, he doesn't play with the rule where dying sucks and you lose experience, and I can raise dead. So it doesn't matter that much if someone dies anymore, right? Theres no reason to fear death just a TPK.

You can sneak attack as many times as you can attack, assuming the opponent is denied his dex or flanked. How is he being denied his dex or flanked every round?

[ffone]

A rogue adds sneak attack damage for each attack where it applies. He certainly can make 4 if he has 4 attacks. For example, if he is flanking or has Greater Invisibility.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sneak attack is kinda a binary ability. You check whether a particular attack meets the criteria for being a sneak attack (flat-footed enemy, flanking, denied dex, etc), if it meets the criteria you deal sneak attack, it doesn't matter if you have 1 attack or a thousand.

[kharmakazy]

Edit: There is one more thing, he doesn't play with the rule where dying sucks and you lose experience, and I can raise dead. So it doesn't matter that much if someone dies anymore, right? Theres no reason to fear death just a TPK.

Well isn't there still the expensive material component? Plus if you die things are going poorly.

or if they are raised as undead they can't be raised.

[Jornophelanthas]

In answer to your question:
Yes, sneak attack applies to any attack that meets its specific requirements. So if you have multiple attacks per round against a flatfooted opponent (who is not immune to critical hits), you get to deal sneak attack on each of those attacks that hits.

[Moriato]

Hmm I never knew about the spells. So can a rogue make literally 4 sneak attacks in one round? Plus the Dm lets him use his natural weapon to sneak attack so he's basically tri-wielding.

Edit: There is one more thing, he doesn't play with the rule where dying sucks and you lose experience, and I can raise dead. So it doesn't matter that much if someone dies anymore, right? Theres no reason to fear death just a TPK.

As long as every attack qualifies as a sneak attack, yes. For example if he's flanking a target and makes a full attack they will all be sneak attacks (assuming the creature is subject to sneak attacks) since he's still flanking for each attack. If, however, he were to jump out from hiding or use invisibility (as opposed to greater invisibility) only the first attack would qualify since the condition that's allowing the sneak attack goes away after the first attack. You can make attacks with natural weapons, too, during a full attack, assuming the appendage you use to make the natural attack isn't otherwise occupied, such as by holding a weapon in it.

As far as dying goes, yes that does make death matter much less, but if your group is ok with it, it can be fine.

[JaronK]

First of all, he allowed a 20 on a ranged touch attack spell do double damage. I can't say I have proof this is wrong, but I've never heard of it before. I gave him the beneift of the doubt on this one. I'm not sure if the next was correct or not, but I'm guessing not.

It's a critical threat on a 20, so if he then confirms the threat it is indeed double damage. So, he was likely right.


Basically, the dual-weilding rogue had 6/1 BAB and this enabled him to get four sneak attacks basically every round. This is just really annoying because he takes literally 3 minutes for every turn and sometimes we get to him again before he's finished.

If he had TWF and ITWF that should make four sneak attacks, assuming flanking (or a flat footed enemy, or whatever). This is his only method of dealing damage. Don't begrudge him.


For spellcasters, we could cast two spells in one turn as a full attack.

That part shouldn't work. Spells are generally standard actions, not attack actions, so you don't get full attacks with spells. Quickening and such may change this, but full attacks don't have anything to do with it.


I doubt that these overpowered party mechanics were the correct way to do things by the book, but I was wondering how this could be possible without quicken spell every turn.

The spell thing is wrong. The rest is correct, and nerfing the Rogue here (especially if there's casters) would be really messed up. But consider getting him a dice roller so he can roll his sneak attack dice a bit quicker.


Edit: There is one more thing, he doesn't play with the rule where dying sucks and you lose experience, and I can raise dead. So it doesn't matter that much if someone dies anymore, right? Theres no reason to fear death just a TPK.

Well, IIRC it costs some money at the very least, but that's his choice. Obviously the normal rule is you lose a level when resurrected.

JaronK

[Cerlis]

Since rays require a ranged touch attack, you aim them like a weapon and they deal damage, that means they are "weapon Spells" (i believe its Complete arcane that goes into detail with them) so any feat you can pick for a weapon (that applies, you wouldnt be able to pick a melee only feat for a ranged touch spell) you can pick for Rays (weapon specialization Ray). So you could get weapon focus, greater weapon focus, Weapon specialization, imp Critical. Theoretically you could get Psionic shot i...think. (better in pathfinder i hear). not sure if there is anything else decent (and of course "Decent" is subjective since most think weapon focus sucks).

but just saying that mechanic is out there if you are interested for the future (in complete mage there is a class focused on turning all your Area of Affect damaging spells into rays)

[hobbitkniver]

As for the sneak attack, someone mentioned you had to be level 9 to get improvaed two weapon fighting. We're not level nine yet.

Edit: Why do the teir systems mark rogues lowly? With 4 sneak attacks and better HD and armor than an arcane caster, damage potential is crazy.

[kharmakazy]

I think each question has been answered at least twice, some more.

[Jornophelanthas]

As for the sneak attack, someone mentioned you had to be level 9 to get improvaed two weapon fighting. We're not level nine yet.

Edit: Why do the teir systems mark rogues lowly? With 4 sneak attacks and better HD and armor than an arcane caster, damage potential is crazy.

If the rogue has a natural attack that he can attack with separately from one of his two weapons (e.g. a tail or bite attack), and if the rogue also has the feat Two-Weapon Fighting, he could still make 4 attack during a full attack.

However, a character can only perform a full attack if he does not take a move action that turn (other than a single 5-foot step). Basically, that means the rogue should only be able to deal multiple attacks if he starts the round within 5 feet from an enemy.

If he needs to move further than 5 feet before attacking, he can only make a single attack (with his main-hand weapon), regardless of two-weapon fighting or natural weapons.

[Big Fau]

Edit: Why do the teir systems mark rogues lowly? With 4 sneak attacks and better HD and armor than an arcane caster, damage potential is crazy.

Because the Tiers do not measure damage potential, and a 17th level Wizard is capable of creating WORLDS.

[Telonius]

As for the sneak attack, someone mentioned you had to be level 9 to get improvaed two weapon fighting. We're not level nine yet.

Edit: Why do the teir systems mark rogues lowly? With 4 sneak attacks and better HD and armor than an arcane caster, damage potential is crazy.

One aspect of D&D that's really hard for beginners to wrap their heads around, is that arcane casters aren't really most powerful when they're rolling lots of damage dice. They're most powerful when they're using spells to end encounters. When it comes to hitpoints, "All of them" usually beats "10d6 sneak attack damage." But "No damage, and you're now my servant" beats both. That's just one small glimpse of the power of casting.

The point of the Tiers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)is to grade the classes on what they're capable of doing. Here's the description of what Tier 4 does:


Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

This describes Rogue pretty well. Their damage isn't crazy. A Frenzied Berserker with Pounce, Leap Attack, a Valorous Weapon, and Shock Trooper does crazy damage. A few extra d6's of sneak attack just can't compete with that. But what Rogue can do, is improvise. It has the best skill list in the game except for Factotum. Use Magic Device and Tumble alone make it versatile. It's not going to outshine somebody specifically built for particular skills, but there's almost always something useful for a Rogue to do in or out of combat.

[MountainKing]

As for the sneak attack, someone mentioned you had to be level 9 to get improvaed two weapon fighting. We're not level nine yet.

Edit: Why do the teir systems mark rogues lowly? With 4 sneak attacks and better HD and armor than an arcane caster, damage potential is crazy.

For the first, you said yourself the rogue has a +6 BAB. That's (one of) the requirement(s) for ITWF. For the second, as the last poster said. Sure, the rogue could potentially go on to kill every living thing on the planet. The wizard can just shrug and go off to make a new planet. :smallwink:

[PollyOliver]

As for the sneak attack, someone mentioned you had to be level 9 to get improvaed two weapon fighting. We're not level nine yet.

Edit: Why do the teir systems mark rogues lowly? With 4 sneak attacks and better HD and armor than an arcane caster, damage potential is crazy.

You said his BAB was +6/+1, which qualifies him for the feat if he also has regular twf and 17 dex. He actually has to take the feat, which is why he has to be level 9--you don't get a feat at level 8. But you never said what level you guys were, only that he had the requisite BAB.

As for the tier part, someone answered that better than I could above.

[dextercorvia]

As for the sneak attack, someone mentioned you had to be level 9 to get improvaed two weapon fighting. We're not level nine yet.

Edit: Why do the teir systems mark rogues lowly? With 4 sneak attacks and better HD and armor than an arcane caster, damage potential is crazy.

If you aren't level 9 yet, how are you Raising Dead?

[hobbitkniver]

If you aren't level 9 yet, how are you Raising Dead?

We just turned level 9, so I will be able to for next time. As for people saying cool things that wizards can do, our arcane caster is a warmage because "it's the same thing but better" according to him and I'm not going to tell him what to play. I'm a cleric reaching level 9, but I end up using mostly inflict and cure spells in the end.

[ffone]

For all the d6s:

Use a dice roller
Or
Houserule that every 2 dice can be treated as a 7. Will have little impact on gameplay (the DM can roll enemy HP pre-session, rather than using averages, to restore some randomness) . They are still dice rather than flat modifiers for purposes of not being multiplied on crits etc.

[PollyOliver]

How long does it take to roll a handful of dice and use rudimentary addition, anyway? It's certainly not 3 minutes. If he's slow, it's probably because he hasn't decided on his action yet or doesn't understand his character's capabilities very well. Those are entirely independent of having multiple attacks, and are entirely fixable by planning your turn while other people are going, understanding your character, and writing down your most common routines if you don't have a good memory.

I've played a gestalt character before with two-weapon fighting, a natural weapon, and snap kick, capable of multiple full attacks in a round with skirmish damage and a party member's dragonfire inspiration, and it didn't take me long enough that anyone ever complained or that my turn took significantly longer than anyone else's. You just need to have your stuff together--either memorized or written--and plan while other people are moving.