3.5 Wizard vs Fighter

[RaggedAngel]

A friend of mine who has been playing 3.5 for several years said something to me that surprised me a bit, after all the time I've spent on these forums: "The fighter may not be as versatile as the wizard, but a good fighter is always better than a good wizard at melee combat."

Now, my friend is not an optimizer, and he plays mostly due to flavor; I respect that, and he's fun to play with. That said, I want to give him a clear demonstration that a Wizard can beat a Fighter at straight-up, direct melee confrontation.

Here is the challenge:

We are going to build a Wizard 20 and a Fighter 20 using the srd, the Completes, the Spell Compendium, and the Magic Item Compendium. We cannot use any Prc's, dips, or ACF's; the point is to show that a standard Wizard can beat a standard Fighter. All the Wizard gets is spells, and all the Fighter gets is feats.

There are four challenges, and the characters start each challenge with the exact same build.

1. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Wizard goes first.

2. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Fighter goes first.

3. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed (the Fighter can drink potions or activate items, the Wizard can cast spells/drink potions), Wizard goes first.

4. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed, Fighter goes first.

He will tweak the Fighter however he likes before the matches; that said, I doubt he'll do more than ensure I didn't sneakily gimp him. Again, he's not an optimizer; for the spirit of the challenge, however, I really do want the best Fighter we can build.

[MeeposFire]

You are going to run into a problem about what is exactly meant by better in melee combat. Fighters can be better in very niche areas (and fail at everything else) but that usually does not count in these discussions. In addition he may not be counting on a gish being able to fight and do other roles or if he is he may be discounting it for this conversation (and that is a gish strength).

The biggest strength a gish has is versatility. Trying to out damage a fighter (if that is what he meant) is dumb as all warrior types can find ways to deal stupid amounts of damage. What a gish brings is being able to do great melee damage while being able to do other things well which is worth a lot more.

[RaggedAngel]

You are going to run into a problem about what is exactly meant by better in melee combat. Fighters can be better in very niche areas (and fail at everything else) but that usually does not count in these discussions. In addition he may not be counting on a gish being able to fight and do other roles or if he is he may be discounting it for this conversation (and that is a gish strength).

The biggest strength a gish has is versatility. Trying to out damage a fighter (if that is what he meant) is dumb as all warrior types can find ways to deal stupid amounts of damage. What a gish brings is being able to do great melee damage while being able to do other things well which is worth a lot more.

Oh, he recognises that a Wizard has more versatility. The point that I'm trying to make is that in a straight, brutal fight, a wizard still has the upper hand. I'm trying to show that a Fighter build only for this one single fight is still not as good at hurting a Wizard who could change out all his spells tomorrow.

[Retech]

Are you allowed to use spells even in a straight-up melee confrontation?

Say, casting defensively or something while spamming time stop and magic missles?

[Z3ro]

My predictions, variable given your level of skill:



1. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Wizard goes first.
Depending on what you do with your round, you should win. If you waste your round with the wrong buffs and he charges, you could lose (I'd put his victory chance at 5%)


2. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Fighter goes first.
Depending on your gear selection, this could be the hardest fight. He rushes you and depending on if he can a) hit you and b) do enough damage to take you down he could win. If you assume all day buffs are up his chances go down significantly. I'd give him 40% chance to win.


3. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed (the Fighter can drink potions or activate items, the Wizard can cast spells/drink potions), Wizard goes first.
He has zero chance to win.


4. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed, Fighter goes first.

He has zero chance to win.

[MeeposFire]

Oh, he recognises that a Wizard has more versatility. The point that I'm trying to make is that in a straight, brutal fight, a wizard still has the upper hand. I'm trying to show that a Fighter build only for this one single fight is still not as good at hurting a Wizard who could change out all his spells tomorrow.

In a straight brutal fight the answer is "who wins initiative". One hit from an OP charge attack will kill the other so who attacks first wins. I would give a slight edge to the caster due to slightly easier to boost initiative. I am not sure how this proves anything though.

Seriously though all you can even prove doing this is a "this build is better than your build" and this is assuming the other player can build an effective fighter which is much harder than building an effective gish.

[NeoSeraphi]

A gish is a combination, a straight Wizard 20 is going to have a hard time besting a fighter due to its BAB and lack of offensive capabilities. A good start would be Shapechange, allowing you to transform into something with higher AC and more damaging melee attacks, but that 20d4 and poor BAB will still be a big concern.

Powerful buff spells that will save you are Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, Greater Mage Armor, fly, and haste

If it is not just straight melee combat (as in, you can cast spells after you start), then baleful polymorph is a key winner. Other spells that will devastate him are escalating enfeeblement (Complete Mage), disintegrate (targeting weapon or armor), slow, ray of exhaustion (without the ability to charge, you have plenty of room to debuff and run until you're ready to kill him)

[JaronK]

Are you allowed to do things like have animate dead minions (hey, they're melee) and similar?

Either way, Shapechange into a Dire Tortoise so you get to go first always. Rolling initiative is for suckers.

JaronK

[Retech]

I think it would be better to have four fights, two unbuffed and two buffed, but you have to roll for initiative.

Then crush the crap out of the fighter with all the wizard initiative boosters and win. (If you're using WBL, use the fact that you are a wizard and get item creation feats so that you can get twice as many things)

[Daremonai]

If the Wizard goes first, he casts Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

If the Fighter goes first, the Wizard casts Celerity, then Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

[JonestheSpy]

Well this has been discussed a bunch, but I'll recap the most important point (in my humble opinion): Even disregarding the power of specific spells, wizard (or any other primary caster) vs fighter duels always give a huge advantage to the wizard because they are free to blow all their spells in one fight. Fighters are designed to be able to use their abilities as often as they please (with the additional assumption that there's usually a cleric or similar in the party to keep their hit point total up) while casters need to ration their spells throughout the day, knowing that there will be multiple challenges that they will have to deal with.

If you really want to judge their respective ability, instead of fighting each other you should have them fight four separate battles against appropriately powered foes, with a limited amount of healing to divvy up between the fights.

EDIT:



If the Fighter goes first, the Wizard casts Celerity, then Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

Which is why DM's who give a dang about game balance don't let cheesey nonsense like Celerity into their games.

[Eldariel]

All you need is Shapechange to win this anyways. You can certainly buff up your AC and miss chance further with a couple of spells (Time Stop -> Buff Machine) but meh. When it's allowed (when you're allowed to have buffs online - it lasts multiple weeks so it should be rather reliable), Contingency to Dimension Door on gesture/word works.

The "Unbuffed, Fighter Goes First" you'll probably lose if the Fighter is any good. It's also completely asinine since when your buffs last over 24 hours, there's 0 moments in his life when the Wizard would be unbuffed. But yeah, without any items or spells, 60' from a Fighter with Fighter somehow acting first, the Fighter is going to kill you. No, there's nothing to do about it; all things that enable acting as flat-footed are either spells or magic items and without either it's Game Over.


Unbuffed, Wizard Goes First (equally asinine, btw; Wizard is never unbuffed unless he just got hit by a Disjunction, in which case he'd be in combat and thus be able to rebuff immediately) you can just Time Stop and load up on all the usual stuff. Buffed, well, you have Contingency, Foresight, Moment of Prescience, Shapechange, Polymorph Any Object (it's a permanent effect so you can have it up at any point for a good defensive form, btw), etc.

[MeeposFire]

Notice how almost all the tips are about not walking up and beating the fighter at its own game? A gish is so good because you play like a gish not because you try to be a fighter. A gish trying to be a fighter is doing it wrong.

[Big Fau]

1. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Wizard goes first.

Force Cage, Quickened Invisibility. Fighter is now screwed over, and must Teleport 60ft to get to you (he cannot do so without using his Standard action). He cannot attack you either without True Seeing (which he won't have until the beginning of his next turn at minimum). Wizard effectively gets a free turn, enabling Time Stop.

Time Stop, game over as the Wizard now Force Cages him and Dimensional Anchors the area, preventing the Fighter from moving while the Wizard buffs up and murders the Fighter.


2. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Fighter goes first.

Fighter charges, one-shots the Wizard.

Cue Ring of Nine Lives, sparring the Wizard and buying the one turn he needs to Quicken Invisibility and cast Time Stop. Game over.


3. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed (the Fighter can drink potions or activate items, the Wizard can cast spells/drink potions), Wizard goes first.

See 1. Same scenario, only Mage's Disjunction is involved.


4. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed, Fighter goes first.

Wizard has Foresight and Moment of Prescience up. Fighter charges and misses due to MoP/Foresight, and the Wizard gets his turn. See 1.

[The Glyphstone]

Oddly enough, the Wizard can't Celerity to victory here, since it's a PHBII spell and not a Spell Compendium spell.

a Crafted Contingent Time Stop will work fine, though.

[NeoSeraphi]

If the Wizard goes first, he casts Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

If the Fighter goes first, the Wizard casts Celerity, then Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

All combatants begin the round as flat-footed until their first initiative. You can't make immediate actions while flat-footed. No celerity

[erikun]

I agree that "melee" ends up poorly defined in this situation. Sure, the Wizard could use a Contengency Time Stop to fit an immovable rod down the fighter's throat and a dozen Delayed Fireballs down his pants, but I don't think that counts much as melee. Neither would lobbing orbs at him, and some would question casting Shivering Touch as "melee combat".

Also note that, if your friend is tricky, he can use some of those abusive Wizard tricks against you. Scroll of Shapechange and enough cross classed UMD to use it? He'll then be able to make use of free Wishes each turn to get whatever buffs he wants, and will actually out-melee you in nearly any situation.

You'd be better off specifying exactly what you mean - Wizard abilities are better in melee combat than even Fighter abilities, and although the Fighter has a higher BAB and more feats, even the Wizard can make up the difference. (Point out that a Wizard can cast Anyspell for Divine Power to overcome the BAB problem, for example.)


There's nothing wrong with a little PvP if you two are interested in it, it just won't prove much of anything - certainly not anything about the classes in question.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Do Shapechange and Tenser's transformation work together? If so... :belkar:

[JaronK]

Shapechange + Contingency should mean that at no point does the Fighter's initiative matter. If he gets to roll initiative, you've already screwed up.

JaronK

[RaggedAngel]

Are you allowed to use spells even in a straight-up melee confrontation?

Say, casting defensively or something while spamming time stop and magic missles?

Hm. Well, Time Stop should certainly be used for buffing, but I'm trying to show that a wizard can out-fight the fighter. That said, most of the damage should come from the wizard hitting the fighter with a weapon.

Basically, I want less "I Gate in a Solar" and more "I Shapechange into a Balor, then hit you with my lightning-bolt-Balor-sword."

Remember that we don't have any loose xp; we are exactly at level 20.

[Knaight]

Crafted Contingent Time Stop will work fine, though.

Or any crafted contingent spell that gets you out of range effectively.

On a side note, winning with only buff and debuff spells and actual weapon use will more effectively prove a point. As such, loading up with defenses until you are nearly impossible to hit, hitting the fighter with disjunction, and cutting them down with a sword should be the tactic of choice, it better proves a point.

[Cerlis]

first i was going to say if its melee then shouldnt they start in each others faces? being better at melee combat means that when a giant scary alien jumps in your face, you can proceed to grab it by the head and throw it on the ground and pound it (see Aliens vs Predators)

and i think Jones has a good point.

if your adamant about the duel i guess this is spam, but if you can be changed then i'd suggest...

that instead of a duel, that you choose 4 different kinds of melee centered monsters (ones who will charge you and choose to rip your face off, not hide and snipe or Crowd control). you could have ones that are undead (what with negative levels, fear auras ect), thena demon. maybe a magical beast with weird abilities. and have them each fight each in melee (wizard using buffs and magical protection to go into melee). and basically judge each fight. So you might have Fighter has trouble all 4 fights, but wizard dies in 4th cus he used all his spells. or you might have some other situation where a wizard has enough cleverness to deal with each monster in a melee, but magical way. heal after each fight but no spell regeneration

but that might be a bad idea, i dont know. Main point is that various testing that all meets the criteria might get better results.


--------------

ps wouldnt a contigient timestop be like a 10th or higher lvl spell?:smallconfused:

[MeeposFire]

Or any crafted contingent spell that gets you out of range effectively.

On a side note, winning with only buff and debuff spells and actual weapon use will more effectively prove a point. As such, loading up with defenses until you are nearly impossible to hit, hitting the fighter with disjunction, and cutting them down with a sword should be the tactic of choice, it better proves a point.

Actually by doing this you would be missing the point. He would say you magicked him to a point of no good rather than just beating him to death. I am certain that the player would not accept anything other than being beat down in melee without having spells cast at the fighter.

This is still a scenario of initiative as whoever goes first wins.

[Big Fau]

Hm. Well, Time Stop should certainly be used for buffing, but I'm trying to show that a wizard can out-fight the fighter. That said, most of the damage should come from the wizard hitting the fighter with a weapon.

Basically, I want less "I Gate in a Solar" and more "I Shapechange into a Balor, then hit you with my lightning-bolt-Balor-sword."

Remember that we don't have any loose xp; we are exactly at level 20.

See my post, above. I didn't meant to avoid Gate and Shapechange, but they aren't really needed even if the Wizard somehow gets charged and killed in the first round (Ring of Nine Lives, MiC).

[MeeposFire]

See my post, above. I didn't meant to avoid Gate and Shapechange, but they aren't really needed even if the Wizard somehow gets charged and killed in the first round (Ring of Nine Lives, MiC).

All that proves is that Ro9L is a great item in a duel. I am sure the player would say he was victorious since you did die once.

[Eldariel]

Notice how almost all the tips are about not walking up and beating the fighter at its own game?

The tips are centered around getting the time to buff up in cases where you're randomly deprived of your all day buffs to actually fight. It's obvious if Wizard doesn't ever cast a spell or use an item he's going to lose; his base stats aren't as high as a Fighter's. Some of these formats place asinine restrictions on what the Wizard can have in place ("the buff only lasts 24 hours"), so you need to ensure you get the time to cast your buffs before you can proceed to rip the Fighter a new one in melee.

Like, the appropriate sequence is: "Shapechange into Choker, use your extra Standard Action to Time Stop, cast like Mage Armor, Shield, Heroism, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon on anything you intend on using, Greater Invisibility, Displacement, etc. and turn into like Pit Fiend or Nightcrawler or whatevs and fight with your ~60ish AC, +40 to hit, Invisibility, Displacement and all the good stuff" - oh, and you can of course use spells like Heroics to get even more done.

[dextercorvia]

There was a level 5 Wizard vs. Fighter fighting dual a while back. IIRC, The Wizard (Koury?) did fairly well.

[NeoSeraphi]

You know what a great spell for this kind of thing is? Entice Gift, from Spell Compendium. Getting the fighter to give you whatever he's holding will force him to get out a new weapon or attempt to take yours back. Either way he's wasting an action (Unless he has the Quick Draw feat, in which case, he's prepared and spent what could have been a good melee feat on an emergency weapon replacement)

Again, disintegrate is also good for this. He's not a monk, and unless he wants to waste his first round (and greatest chance of beating you) his best and most expensive +10 sword is going to be what he has drawn. Take that out and you'll have crippled him harshly.

Or, if you really want to drive in how a melee-dependent class is inferior, Sunder his weapon in melee, then toss your sword aside (so you're both unarmed) and then cast Shapechange and watch him run away without his sword.

But you know, that's only if you think the risk of losing by attempting to Sunder is really worth the pay-out humiliation (I definitely think it is)

[MeeposFire]

The tips are centered around getting the time to buff up in cases where you're randomly deprived of your all day buffs to actually fight. It's obvious if Wizard doesn't ever cast a spell or use an item he's going to lose; his base stats aren't as high as a Fighter's. Some of these formats place asinine restrictions on what the Wizard can have in place ("the buff only lasts 24 hours"), so you need to ensure you get the time to cast your buffs before you can proceed to rip the Fighter a new one in melee.

Like, the appropriate sequence is: "Shapechange into Choker, use your extra Standard Action to Time Stop, cast like Mage Armor, Shield, Heroism, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon on anything you intend on using, Greater Invisibility, Displacement, etc. and turn into like Pit Fiend or Nightcrawler or whatevs and fight with your ~60ish AC, +40 to hit, Invisibility, Displacement and all the good stuff" - oh, and you can of course use spells like Heroics to get even more done.

Assuming this player has any intelligence what so ever he will have the mage slayer line. In doing he would ignore all the spells you listed except for heroism and greater magic weapon. He would also ignore the AC bonus from shape change and in one hit would dispel shapechange, haste, and every other spell that boosts AC. So your buffs are mostly a waste.

Further I would be willing to accept wizards being wizards in a duel but that is not what this is about. The gauntlet that has been thrown is the idea that the wizard can beat the fighter at being a beat stick while not acting particulary wizardish (that last part is an assumption since the person who made the statement is not here to clarify for sure but if he does allow a caster to be a caster the caster wins always).

[dextercorvia]

You know what a great spell for this kind of thing is? Entice Gift, from Spell Compendium. Getting the fighter to give you whatever he's holding will force him to get out a new weapon or attempt to take yours back. Either way he's wasting an action (Unless he has the Quick Draw feat, in which case, he's prepared and spent what could have been a good melee feat on an emergency weapon replacement)

Again, disintegrate is also good for this. He's not a monk, and unless he wants to waste his first round (and greatest chance of beating you) his best and most expensive +10 sword is going to be what he has drawn. Take that out and you'll have crippled him harshly.

Or, if you really want to drive in how a melee-dependent class is inferior, Sunder his weapon in melee, then toss your sword aside (so you're both unarmed) and then cast Shapechange and watch him run away without his sword.

But you know, that's only if you think the risk of losing by attempting to Sunder is really worth the pay-out humiliation (I definitely think it is)

Note that with Entice Gift you are trading actions, not wasting his. Also, drawing a weapon is a free action while moving for anyone with at least BAB +1.

[Knaight]

Further I would be willing to accept wizards being wizards in a duel but that is not what this is about. The gauntlet that has been thrown is the idea that the wizard can beat the fighter at being a beat stick while not acting particulary wizardish (that last part is an assumption since the person who made the statement is not here to clarify for sure but if he does allow a caster to be a caster the caster wins always).

Well, the Wizard just has to win in melee. There are two main, fair interpretations of this.
1) Melee attacks are the sum total of the Wizard's offense.
2) Melee attacks must be what actually kill the Fighter.

Either way, heavy buffing is reasonable, and leaving out obvious cheese such as Shapechange and Celerity preferable. Even without these, a wizard should be able to cut a fighter down, unchanged, with a weapon, if they see fit, particularly in case 2 which allows debuffing.

On a side note, melee touch attacks may be considered fair game, and if they are that opens up a lot of possibilities.

[NeoSeraphi]

Note that with Entice Gift you are trading actions, not wasting his. Also, drawing a weapon is a free action while moving for anyone with at least BAB +1.

But with Quickened spells, you have two actions a round and he only has one. Plus, it wastes your one standard action compared to his whole round (Entice Gift requires the person to walk as close as they can to you and then hand you the sword, which you take as a free action)

Plus, then you have their sword. It saves you a lot of WBL to depend on the fighter's +10 weapon (which you can gain proficiency with immediately with a 1st level spell just by touching it), than getting your own.

[dextercorvia]

But with Quickened spells, you have two actions a round and he only has one. Plus, it wastes your one standard action compared to his whole round (Entice Gift requires the person to walk as close as they can to you and then hand you the sword, which you take as a free action)

Plus, then you have their sword. It saves you a lot of WBL to depend on the fighter's +10 weapon (which you can gain proficiency with immediately with a 1st level spell just by touching it), than getting your own.

Let me put it this way: With tactics like these, I would play the Fighter to your Wizard.

[MeeposFire]

Well, the Wizard just has to win in melee. There are two main, fair interpretations of this.
1) Melee attacks are the sum total of the Wizard's offense.
2) Melee attacks must be what actually kill the Fighter.

Either way, heavy buffing is reasonable, and leaving out obvious cheese such as Shapechange and Celerity preferable. Even without these, a wizard should be able to cut a fighter down, unchanged, with a weapon, if they see fit, particularly in case 2 which allows debuffing.

On a side note, melee touch attacks may be considered fair game, and if they are that opens up a lot of possibilities.

You are forgetting how many buffs the fighter is flat out ignoring (that by the way the gish can't unless he tanks his CL). Most of the common buffs that people use (outside of the initiative buffing) are ignored by the mage slayer line and many of those will be dispelled in one hit for damage. Mirror images, concealment effects, and AC boosters (which include things like haste and polymorph spells for the most part) all are ignored and all are dispelled (except the mirror image and the concealment but he wont care since he has no problems from it).

[Eldariel]

Assuming this player has any intelligence what so ever he will have the mage slayer line. In doing he would ignore all the spells you listed except for heroism and greater magic weapon. He would also ignore the AC bonus from shape change and in one hit would dispel shapechange, haste, and every other spell that boosts AC. So your buffs are mostly a waste.

Pierce Magical Protection does not work against Polymorph-line spells. They don't grant Armor Class bonuses of any kind (though they do modify stats that modify Armor Class but it simply says "...that ignores any bonuses to Armor Class granted by spells..."). It also requires a standard action to use meaning he denies himself a full attack. It'd only remove Mage Armor and Shield if by some grace of a deity he hits and deals damage. By and large, it's an awful feat and there's little reason to be worried about it. If he uses it, just kill him. He has no way to stop your counterattack.

Also, he still doesn't see invisible without magic so regardless of his Pierce Magical Concealment he needs to somehow find which square you're in (a Wizard can easily attack from one square and e.g. Slide to another).


Further I would be willing to accept wizards being wizards in a duel but that is not what this is about. The gauntlet that has been thrown is the idea that the wizard can beat the fighter at being a beat stick while not acting particulary wizardish (that last part is an assumption since the person who made the statement is not here to clarify for sure but if he does allow a caster to be a caster the caster wins always).

Wasn't the idea that a Wizard with a usual Wizard's spell payload can outfight a Fighter? 'cause that's easy enough, with Shapechange. While he'll prolly have Freedom of Movement, might as well use a form with Improved Grab round 1 to force that; e.g. Nightcrawler can just chew him dead if he doesn't (10 higher BAB doesn't compare to higher Str and +16 Size bonuses).

[NeoSeraphi]

Let me put it this way: With tactics like these, I would play the Fighter to your Wizard.

Ouch, point taken. It was just a suggestion.

[Knaight]

Mirror images, concealment effects, and AC boosters (which include things like haste and polymorph spells for the most part) all are ignored and all are dispelled (except the mirror image and the concealment but he wont care since he has no problems from it).

If debuffs are allowed, the Mage Slayer line is easy to get around. Mordenkain's Disjunction, Greater Invisibility, Fly, Enlarge Person. Use a reach weapon, and you can now stab people from out of reach, and melee combat is won. If the wizard also gets feats (there was some wording in the opening post that suggested they might not), you could even win with something like Spring Attack, which is a complete joke of a feat. It also makes more of a point.

[MeeposFire]

Every time you use a polymorph effect to use a form that includes a bonus to AC (and most do) then it is vulnerable to the mage slayer feats as all it has to be is "any bonuses to armor class ranted by spells". If you change into a form that has even a +1 bonus to natural armor that is an armor class bonus from a spell. It does not say that the spell has to only give you an AC bonus.

As for spring attacking they just use lockdown feats. Best way to deal with a lockdown fighter is to magic it from a distance an dnot try to beat it in a straight fight.

[The Glyphstone]

So if a Dwarven Runesmith casts Bear's Endurance and gets his by someone with Mage Slayer, does he then lose the +40 HP granted by the spell because it also, indirectly, improves his AC?

[ZombyWoof]

1. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Wizard goes first.

2. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Fighter goes first.

3. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed (the Fighter can drink potions or activate items, the Wizard can cast spells/drink potions), Wizard goes first.

4. Standing 60ft. from each other, buffed, Fighter goes first.

He will tweak the Fighter however he likes before the matches; that said, I doubt he'll do more than ensure I didn't sneakily gimp him. Again, he's not an optimizer; for the spirit of the challenge, however, I really do want the best Fighter we can build.
Here's the problem:

A wizard will never be "unbuffed" because a wizard has some key buffs that last either all day or all week.

Buffed, the Fighter can never win.

Unbuffed, the Fighter can win if they start within 60' and he wins initiative, but he will never win initiative because there are buffs that a Wizard can cast that will give him absurd initiative counts.

EDIT: To make this really funny you could build an ubercharger on a horse... who happened to take the Wizard PrC. Nothing would be more emberassing than to be shock-troop'd by a Wizard from full to dead, right? :smallbiggrin:

[RaggedAngel]

If debuffs are allowed, the Mage Slayer line is easy to get around. Mordenkain's Disjunction, Greater Invisibility, Fly, Enlarge Person. Use a reach weapon, and you can now stab people from out of reach, and melee combat is won. If the wizard also gets feats (there was some wording in the opening post that suggested they might not), you could even win with something like Spring Attack, which is a complete joke of a feat. It also makes more of a point.

Oops, I didn't mean to say that the Wizard doesn't get feats from leveling; I was just reinforcing the "no ACF's" thing.

[SamBurke]

As to best fighter, I have a few questions:

How much money do you get? I assume WBL.

Here's my thought: give him a weapon that is loaded with wands as auto-reloading traps. Wand of Anti-magic comes to mind. If such, he has a massive chance of winning (since you want the best for him possible). Or, if not, just various wands of other things that trigger when touched, so that when he hits, it also activates 4+ wands.

[Akal Saris]

Just some food for thought, but a better question might be, "At what level is the wizard a better melee combatant than the fighter class?" Clearly the majority of the Playground agrees that this is so at level 20, but what about level 10? Level 5? Level 1?

[Eldariel]

Every time you use a polymorph effect to use a form that includes a bonus to AC (and most do) then it is vulnerable to the mage slayer feats as all it has to be is "any bonuses to armor class ranted by spells". If you change into a form that has even a +1 bonus to natural armor that is an armor class bonus from a spell. It does not say that the spell has to only give you an AC bonus.

But the spells don't grant any bonuses to AC. If something grants a bonus to AC, it says "grants +X bonus to AC". They modify your base stats; you get a new base Natural Armor, Dexterity, etc. Not a single one of those factors is a bonus. Your base stats can raise or fall (the fact that you usually use the spells to raise them is irrelevant).

If it gave you +X bonus to Natural Armor, then sure, but it makes your Base Natural Armor into whatever is the base value for the creature you're transforming into. It also might improve your Dexterity, but again, this isn't a bonus; your base stats cease to exist when you use Polymorph and the new numbers are for all intents and purposes your base stats.

I wouldn't be opposed to a houserule to enable dispelling and piercing a Polymorph-effect with PMP but that would be just that, a houserule (and I'm not sure it would be enough to win this anyways; Wizard will have a reach advantage especially if he's allowed to use Dispel Magic/Disjunction to remove Fighter's size increase so it's not certain that the Fighter ever gets out of a trip lockdown).

[MeeposFire]

So if a Dwarven Runesmith casts Bear's Endurance and gets his by someone with Mage Slayer, does he then lose the +40 HP granted by the spell because it also, indirectly, improves his AC?

Assuming that the spell is granting the AC bonus then yea that is what it says. What are they not allowed to have nice things:smalltongue:?

[Seerow]

Just some food for thought, but a better question might be, "At what level is the wizard a better melee combatant than the fighter class?" Clearly the majority of the Playground agrees that this is so at level 20, but what about level 10? Level 5? Level 1?

It goes back to defining melee combat. Do you consider a Wizard summoning stuff to protect him by beating down the Fighter in melee as melee combat? If so, probably anywhere from level 1 to 3.

If you mean standing toe to toe whacking at each other with full attacks, I'd say probably somewhere around 13-17.

If you extend it from straight Wizard to a Wizard Gish, then that goes back down to probably 7-9ish.

[dextercorvia]

Just some food for thought, but a better question might be, "At what level is the wizard a better melee combatant than the fighter class?" Clearly the majority of the Playground agrees that this is so at level 20, but what about level 10? Level 5? Level 1?

Definitely, the Wizard wins at level 1. In my opinion there is a gray area around level 6, where a well built fighter could outfight a fighting built wizard. I think Polymorph tips the balance again after that.

[Siosilvar]

Assuming that the spell is granting the AC bonus then yea that is what it says. What are they not allowed to have nice things:smalltongue:?

Bear's Endurance provides +4 Constitution.

I assume Dwarven Runesmiths get Con to AC, hence the question.

I doubt anybody would say that the spell is granting that AC bonus, because it's provided by some other feature (namely, the class).

Using the same reasoning, one can't say that a Polymorph spell gives you an AC bonus, but one can say that it turns you into some other creature (that may or may not have an AC bonus). Natural armor bonus provided by being some creature != natural armor bonus provided by a spell like Barkskin.

[Divide by Zero]

Just some food for thought, but a better question might be, "At what level is the wizard a better melee combatant than the fighter class?" Clearly the majority of the Playground agrees that this is so at level 20, but what about level 10? Level 5? Level 1?

Level 7 at the latest (polymorph).

[JaronK]

Heck, Alter Self on an Outsider Wizard should give the Wizard the win at level 3. Human Wizard with Otherworldly turning into a Dwarf Ancestor for +15 Natural AC should be pretty effective...

JaronK

[JonestheSpy]

Assuming this player has any intelligence what so ever he will have the mage slayer line.

Which is another reason why a better test of ability is against a series of encounters, instead of characters created specifically to win this one duel.

As others have said, I think it also would be a more interesting to try the test at a lower level, 10 or so - not only are the highest level spells way overpowered, but not all that many campaigns get that far. Seems better to test it at levels one is more likely to actually be playing.

Lastly, I wonder how it would stack up if the obviously broken spells that DM's often ban or nerf were disallowed - the polymorph line, crafted contingencies, etc. Heck, Alter Self was demonstrated to be horribly overpowered in a low level fighter vs wizard duel on the board awhile ago (wizard changed to Troglodyte, got higher stats and a +6 AC bonus - compare that to an equivalent level druid casting Barkskin and only getting +3 AC and nothing else). Obviously, what would be disallowed is a huge gray area, but in considering actual play vs internet theory, it's something to think about.

EDIT:


Definitely, the Wizard wins at level 1.

I love how these discussions always assume no one ever makes a savings throw.

[dextercorvia]

I love how these discussions always assume no one ever makes a savings throw.

I resent that assertion. I planned to allow no saving throws. I was under the impression we were beating the fighter at his own game.

[Big Fau]

I love how these discussions always assume no one ever make a savings throw.

Statistically speaking, the odds of a 1st level Fighter passing a DC 15 or 16 Will save are slim (he has a base +0 and likely 8 or 10 Wis, since it isn't a vital stat). Unless he's pumping Wis and focusing on his Will save, he can't make the save that reliably.

[faceroll]

If the Wizard goes first, he casts Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

If the Fighter goes first, the Wizard casts Celerity, then Time Stop, and proceeds to win from there.

Celerity isn't on the approved sources.

[WinWin]

No mention of familliars?

Share a Mental Pinnacle (XPH...technically completes) with your pet toad and then let it Ego Whip the fighter into submission.

Or just share a shapechange and allow it to do all the heavy lifting. Preferably as something incorporeal with either energy drain or ability damage. Otherwise, just make it grow and have it grapple the fighter into submission.

[Killer Angel]

1. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Wizard goes first.

2. Standing 60ft. from each other, unbuffed, Fighter goes first.


OK, I'm pretty sure someone already asked for it but... unbuffed?
What this means? nothing at all already active?
Not even spells that last all day, or many days, like overland flight or contingency?
...'cause I've got a hard time, believing that.

[JonestheSpy]

I resent that assertion. I planned to allow no saving throws. I was under the impression we were beating the fighter at his own game.

Well, please demonstrate how this 1st level wizard can definitely win against a 1st level fighter without spells that require savings throws.

In any case, I'm commenting on a larger phenomenon that I often see, where some posts things like "I cast Sleep, I win" or the like.


Statistically speaking, the odds of a 1st level Fighter passing a DC 15 or 16 Will save are slim (he has a base +0 and likely 8 or 10 Wis, since it isn't a vital stat). Unless he's pumping Wis and focusing on his Will save, he can't make the save that reliably.

Well if one is going to play a duel like this, it would be pretty stupid for the fighter not to, wouldn't it?

[Eldariel]

No mention of familliars?

Share a Mental Pinnacle (XPH...technically completes) with your pet toad and then let it Ego Whip the fighter into submission.

Or just share a shapechange and allow it to do all the heavy lifting. Preferably as something incorporeal with either energy drain or ability damage. Otherwise, just make it grow and have it grapple the fighter into submission.

We kinda concluded the Fighter is boned as soon as the Wizard gets an action so it's unnecessary to bring a second body to the deal :smallwink: You can just share all your buffs and have twice the fun but that's largely likely to be unnecessary.

[Big Fau]

Well if one is going to play a duel like this, it would be pretty stupid for the fighter not to, wouldn't it?

True, but Precocious Apprentice makes up for that problem (since you can get better spells).

[Telonius]

Here's the problem:

A wizard will never be "unbuffed" because a wizard has some key buffs that last either all day or all week.

Buffed, the Fighter can never win.

Unbuffed, the Fighter can win if they start within 60' and he wins initiative, but he will never win initiative because there are buffs that a Wizard can cast that will give him absurd initiative counts.

EDIT: To make this really funny you could build an ubercharger on a horse... who happened to take the Wizard PrC. Nothing would be more emberassing than to be shock-troop'd by a Wizard from full to dead, right? :smallbiggrin:

... this could be hilarious. The guy takes 20 levels of the Wizard class, but has high STR, doesn't actually know any spells, uses his feats like a Barbarian, gets Mounted Combat/Ride-By Attack, gets proficiency in Lance ... are there enough feat slots for him to pull that off?

[Eldariel]

... this could be hilarious. The guy takes 20 levels of the Wizard class, but has high STR, doesn't actually know any spells, uses his feats like a Barbarian, gets Mounted Combat/Ride-By Attack, gets proficiency in Lance ... are there enough feat slots for him to pull that off?

You only need Spirited Charge & Shock Trooper for basic charging. That's only 6 feats. Then Lance-proficiency, for 7. Without Martial Wizard, Human or any spells that mimic feats (like Master's Touch, Heroics & co.) you'd have enough for the bare-bones version.

[Koury]

There was a level 5 Wizard vs. Fighter fighting dual a while back. IIRC, The Wizard (Koury?) did fairly well.

Yeah, that was me. I was core only, I forget which, if any, of my opponents were.

I know I lost pretty bad to the guy I fought who was using Incarnum. They were fun though. :smallsmile: Surprised someone remembered that.

[faceroll]

It goes back to defining melee combat. Do you consider a Wizard summoning stuff to protect him by beating down the Fighter in melee as melee combat? If so, probably anywhere from level 1 to 3.

Summoned monsters suck. A fighter would cleave through them, and only if the wizard was a specialist conjurer that used a rapid casting variant. Otherwise the wizard would get splattered as soon as he started casting.

[faceroll]

You only need Spirited Charge & Shock Trooper for basic charging. That's only 6 feats. Then Lance-proficiency, for 7. Without Martial Wizard, Human or any spells that mimic feats (like Master's Touch, Heroics & co.) you'd have enough for the bare-bones version.

Shocktrooper's for chumps who can't cast a quickened true strike.

[sonofzeal]

Well, please demonstrate how this 1st level wizard can definitely win against a 1st level fighter without spells that require savings throws.

In any case, I'm commenting on a larger phenomenon that I often see, where some posts things like "I cast Sleep, I win" or the like.
Can't win without saving throws, but the math still doesn't work out in the Fighter's favour.

lvl 1 Fighter vs lvl 1 Wizard

32 pointbuy

Grey Elven Wizard (stats: 6/16/14/20/8/8), toad familiar
- Offence: Sleep x3, DC 16
- Defence: AC 13, HP 9

Human Fighter (stats: 18/12/16/8/10/8), Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, etc
- Offence: Greatsword +5(2d6+6)
- Defence: Will +0



The Wizard has a far larger range than the Fighter. It's virtually guaranteed that the Wizard will get the Sleep off first, unless you start them next to each other and the Fighter wins initiative, which is unlikely. I'm going to assume the Fighter can close to hit the Wizard after that, but if the Wizard is backpedaling even that isn't guaranteed. I'll ignore that though, because I'm lazy and because it's still not going to save the Fighter's ass. The Wizard has a 75% chance to knock the Fighter out any given turn. The Fighter has a 63% chance to kill the Wizard in any particular attack. The probabilities thus descend as follows...

Turn 1 Wizard victory: 75%
Turn 1 Fighter victory: 15.75%
9.25
Turn 2 Wizard victory: 6.94%
Turn 2 Fighter victory: 1.45%
Turn 3 Wizard victory: 0.64%
Turn 3+ Fighter victory: 0.21%

TOTAL
Wizard: 82.59%
Fighter: 17.41%

Wizard wins. Not 100%, few things in this game are 100%... but Wizard wins handidly. Not a close contest.



(That said, a lvl 1 Fighter is probably a more useful ally than a lvl 1 Wizard, simply because the Wizard is tapped after that fight and the Fighter can keep rockin' it up. Still, the Wizard has great odds of being able to end the fight before the Fighter can even get his first swing in.)

[Eldariel]

That said, a lvl 1 Fighter is probably a more useful ally than a lvl 1 Wizard, simply because the Wizard is tapped after that fight and the Fighter can keep rockin' it up. Still, the Wizard has great odds of being able to end the fight before the Fighter can even get his first swing in.

Sleep is 1 round casting time which is quite the disadvantage. On the other hand, Wizard's payload hits multiple targets and Wizard has a good chance of doing more than his job in any given encounter with a single casting (catch 4 enemies in Sleep, I'm betting they won't all make their saves and on average, assuming Fighter-level saves, you can knock 3 of the 4 out). So a Wizard has absolutely no trouble going for 4 encounters.

Though really, he probably should specialize (prolly Conjuration), pick up maybe Enlarge Person, Color Spray, Grease & Sleep (or second Color Spray) for his spells if actually making a Wizard for a game. Note that such a Wizard would have just fine chances against Fighter as well (Color Spray is shorter range but still outranges Fighter's melee, and is a standard action to cast).

[JonestheSpy]

True, but Precocious Apprentice overpowered splatbook cheese makes up for that problem (since you can get better spells).

Fixed that for you. And sure, what can't one accomplish with cheese?

[sonofzeal]

Fixed that for you. And sure, what can't one accomplish with cheese?
*sighs*

Really? Is that the stage we've reached?

This thread is about the relative capabilities of the Wizard vs the Fighter. Precocious Apprentice is part of defining the sum total capabilities of the Wizard. It is entirely relevant to this thread.

By denouncing things you dislike as "overpowered splatbook cheese", you're effectively just reducing the Wizard to whatever your personal preconceived notions of a Wizard's capabilities are. So... have fun arguing against yourself, I guess?

[dextercorvia]

Well, please demonstrate how this 1st level wizard can definitely win against a 1st level fighter without spells that require savings throws.

I'm liable to go for a natural attack blender with Corrosive Grasp augmenting said attacks. Nerveskitter + Improved Init mean wizard goes first. It wouldn't be 100%, but it would be melee rocket tag with a definite wizard advantage. Honestly, either can drop the other with a single attack, so this is going to be initiative optimization.


Sleep is 1 round casting time which is quite the disadvantage. Uncanny Forethought would be worth it in a game where you were relying on Sleep.

[JonestheSpy]

*sighs*

Really? Is that the stage we've reached?

This thread is about the relative capabilities of the Wizard vs the Fighter. Precocious Apprentice is part of defining the sum total capabilities of the Wizard. It is entirely relevant to this thread.

By denouncing things you dislike as "overpowered splatbook cheese", you're effectively just reducing the Wizard to whatever your personal preconceived notions of a Wizard's capabilities are. So... have fun arguing against yourself, I guess?

Well, sorry that I sounded so rude. I know this isn't a core-only discussion, but there's just so much stuff in the splatbooks that's grossly overpowered (most of it for spellcasters) that it seems a waste of time to even discuss the issue when it starts being included. Heck, why doesn't everyone just play a Planar Shepard then and be done with it?

And yes, I know the SRD has plenty of broken stuff - I pointed some of it out myself in an earlier post. But look at all the "guaranteed win"suggestions for low levels that are all splatbook material just in this thread - Precocious Apprentice, Nerveskitter, Corrosive Touch, Celerity - throwing in all the supplements without any judgment calls makes the brokenness much worse and happen much quicker.

[Doc Roc]

Well, sorry that I sounded so rude. I know this isn't a core-only discussion, but there's just so much stuff in the splatbooks that's grossly overpowered (most of it for spellcasters) that it seems a waste of time to even discuss the issue when it starts being included. Heck, why doesn't everyone just play a Planar Shepard then and be done with it?

And yet, fighter loses in core too, in most of the duels and SGTs I've seen. Kvetch all you want, fighter is horrible by almost any metric you use outside of some getchy pile of house rules.

[JonestheSpy]

And yet, fighter loses in core too, in most of the duels and SGTs I've seen. Kvetch all you want, fighter is horrible by almost any metric you use outside of some getchy pile of house rules.

Well, not at first level, which was the point that set off this particular debate.

Anyway, I'm not against using supplements per se, just the unthinking acceptance of all the material. For example, I like lots of what's in PH2, but I'd never let the Celerity spells in any game I run.

[dextercorvia]

Well, not at first level, which was the point that set off this particular debate.

Anyway, I'm not against using supplements per se, just the unthinking acceptance of all the material. For example, I like lots of what's in PH2, but I'd never let the Celerity spells in any game I run.

It really is there, too. It's not as bad then, as later, but it's best feature (bonus feat) is had by a Wizard. Then it has a worse skill list, better HD, +1 to attack, the armor can be equaled with a spell, and the damage difference between MWP and wizard weapons can be made up with a spell.

[Doc Roc]

Well, not at first level, which was the point that set off this particular debate.

Anyway, I'm not against using supplements per se, just the unthinking acceptance of all the material. For example, I like lots of what's in PH2, but I'd never let the Celerity spells in any game I run.

I think you'd be surprised, actually. Wizards are pretty boss even at L1.

[faceroll]

I think you'd be surprised, actually. Wizards are pretty boss even at L1.

If you really want to make sure the fighter dies, you prep a lot of color spray, sell the spell book, buy a mess of riding dogs, have them all instructed to guard you, and carry a tower shield.

A level 1 fighter with 28pb can be seriously challenged by a riding dog.

[sonofzeal]

Note: the following Wizard build is not intended as a viable 20th lvl build, merely as a thought exercise. A lvl 1 core only melee wizard is just about the worst-case scenario on the Wizard side, so a fairly degenerate build is called for.

lvl 1 Fighter vs lvl 1 Wizard, Core only, Wizard has to win in melee

32 pointbuy

Human Wizard (stats: 16/16/14/14/8/8), toad familiar, Proficiency: Greatsword
- Offence: +3(2d6+4)
- Spells: Mage Armor, Enlarge Person
- Defence: AC 17, HP 9

Human Fighter (stats: 18/12/16/8/10/8), Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, etc
- Offence: Greatsword +5(2d6+6)
- Defence: AC 15 (touch 11), HP 13


After Enlarge, the Wizard is swinging +3(3d6+6), with an AC of 16. The Fighter has a roughly 29% chance of a OHKO against the Wizard any given round. The Wizard meanwhile is almost guaranteed a OHKO if they connect, giving a 39% chance of a OHKO.

The end result, honestly, is pretty much even if the Fighter gets the first swing. If the Wizard gets the first swing, they win 70% of the time. And given that Mage Armor has a huge duration and Enlarge Person lasts 10 rounds even at this level, that's not unfeasible. Overall, I'd say the Wizard is the scarier combatant.

[Ursus the Grim]

Hm. Pretty sure a Wizard would win in nearly every situation, except perhaps Unbuffed with the Initiative to the Fighter.

I set up a demo to explain to my group the purpose and meaning of tiers by taking a Monk and a Wizard against each other at level 1 and level 20. The Monk had a great deal of items at 20 that I picked specifically to negate some of the Wizard's biggest killers. Even hitting reliably with flurry and some 6d6 damage per hit, once the Wizard shapechanged into a Balor, it was all over.

Shapechange puts a whole host of melee-oriented Fighter killers at your disposal. Really big sword? Grapple/Swallow Whole. High number of attacks? Regeneration/High DR. Trip-focused? Anything without legs or stable.

He needs to focus his feats and gear if he is going to beat you, and because you have 95% of the Monster Manual to choose from, its essentially impossible for him to account for it all. Personally, I would lean towards a 12-headed Cryohydra at first, but there are much better picks.

I think people are forgetting how much the Fighter will suffer from being a straight fighter. There are a few good feats out there, but all the good fighter builds are, perhaps obviously, multiclassed.

[WinWin]

The familliar should be using Aid Another in combat. Round 1 it should hide using a peice of dropped equipment as cover (and get a massive bonus due to size). If it moves into the fighters space it is no longer hidden, but that does not matter.

If it remains within 5 feet of the mage (likely unless the fighter is also benefiting from reach), then it gains the benefit of mage armor.

The fighter now has 2 targets. One of them can hit back.

Sure, the Wizard loses if his familliar is killed. The Fighter loses more if he eats the Wizards greatsword.

[Seerow]

Note: the following Wizard build is not intended as a viable 20th lvl build, merely as a thought exercise. A lvl 1 core only melee wizard is just about the worst-case scenario on the Wizard side, so a fairly degenerate build is called for.

lvl 1 Fighter vs lvl 1 Wizard, Core only, Wizard has to win in melee

32 pointbuy

Human Wizard (stats: 16/16/14/14/8/8), toad familiar, Proficiency: Greatsword
- Offence: +3(2d6+4)
- Spells: Mage Armor, Enlarge Person
- Defence: AC 17, HP 9

Human Fighter (stats: 18/12/16/8/10/8), Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, etc
- Offence: Greatsword +5(2d6+6)
- Defence: AC 15 (touch 11), HP 13


After Enlarge, the Wizard is swinging +3(3d6+6), with an AC of 16. The Fighter has a roughly 29% chance of a OHKO against the Wizard any given round. The Wizard meanwhile is almost guaranteed a OHKO if they connect, giving a 39% chance of a OHKO.

The end result, honestly, is pretty much even if the Fighter gets the first swing. If the Wizard gets the first swing, they win 70% of the time. And given that Mage Armor has a huge duration and Enlarge Person lasts 10 rounds even at this level, that's not unfeasible. Overall, I'd say the Wizard is the scarier combatant.

So the Wizard takes Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword), which as far as I know no Wizard would ever take in a practical situation (even if they want the proficiency, they'd multiclass for it + some martial abilities)... so is clearly being built specifically for the duel. Also has a hr/level spell and minute/level spell up at the start of a fight at level 1?

Meanwhile the Fighter has only 2 of his 3 feats, and is using none of them in the duel.



Seriously, I agree that Wizards beat fighters, but this example is terrible for it, and weighted heavily in favor of the Wizard.

[sonofzeal]

Meanwhile the Fighter has only 2 of his 3 feats, and is using none of them in the duel.
Eh, the Wizard has a spare feat too. Maybe I should have made them both Dwarves. That'd tilt it further in favour of the Wizard, actually, since the +1 hp is more significant.

Also, I figure the Mage Armor could be prebuffed, and the Enlarge Person could be tossed up during the fight. Depending on the battlefield setup, it shouldn't be impractical for the Wizard to have that turn of grace.

...or...

lvl 1 Fighter vs lvl 1 Wizard, Core only, Wizard has to win in melee

32 pointbuy

Elf Wizard (stats: 16/18/12/14/8/9), toad familiar, Dodge
- Offence: Quarterstaff +3(1d6+4)
- Spells: Mage Armor, Shield
- Defence: AC 23, HP 8

Dwarf Fighter (stats: 18/12/16/8/10/8), Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
- Offence: Greatsword +5(2d6+6)
- Defence: AC 15 (touch 11), HP 14


......after crunching the numbers via simulation, I get a slight edge to the Wizard, but it's minimal. If the Fighter hits first, he gets 52.4% chance of victory. If the Wizard hits first, he gets 56.0% chance of victory. Ah well, worth a shot.

Of course, past lvl 1, or outside of melee, things start tilting heavily in the Wizard's favour. It just isn't quite true that the Wizard can reliably out-melee the Fighter at lvl 1. Close, but no cigar.

[JonestheSpy]

snip

Again, this all seems to assume a not very intelligent fighter build while the wizard is specialized to this one fight. Taking characters with the same race and stats (though I think 32 point buy is wayyyy overpowered), I'd play it like this:

Dwarf Fighter: Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe), Improved Initiative
Offense: Dwarven Waraxe +6 (1-10+4, still likely to one-shot the elven wizard)
Defense: AC 19 (Armor + Tower shield)

Without doing a gigantic amount of number crunching, this seems to give a definitive win to the Fighter based on Sonofzeal's figures, and isn't an extreme build designed just to win one fight - despite the conventional wisdom of "AC doesn't matter at high levels", I think most experienced players are aware it matters quite a lot at low and mid levels.

The fighter can also go full defense and try to wait out the wizards Shield spell - after that, it's gravy.

[sonofzeal]

The fighter can also go full defense and try to wait out the wizards Shield spell - after that, it's gravy.
If the fighter goes full defence, the Wizard can still quite possibly hit him. Shield takes 10 rounds to run out. After 10 rounds of unreturned attacks, I wouldn't want to be the Fighter.

And remember that Tower Shields have a -4 to your melee attacks, even with proficiency.


Again, this all seems to assume a not very intelligent fighter build while the wizard is specialized to this one fight.
Well yes. But"Level 1 Core Only Melee Only" is kiiiiind of a bit ludicrous of a challenge for a theoretical Wizard vs Fighter context.

So. For "Level 1 Core Only Melee Only", Fighters beat Wizards. Most of the time. Depending on the respective builds.

Yay. http://griefsjourney.com/bb/Smileys/default/EmoticonParty.gif


though I think 32 point buy is wayyyy overpowered
You know, suddenly this thread makes a whole lot more sense....

[Flickerdart]

Again, this all seems to assume a not very intelligent fighter build while the wizard is specialized to this one fight. Taking characters with the same race and stats (though I think 32 point buy is wayyyy overpowered), I'd play it like this:

Dwarf Fighter: Weapon Focus (Dwarven Waraxe), Improved Initiative
Offense: Dwarven Waraxe +6 (1-10+4, still likely to one-shot the elven wizard)
Defense: AC 19 (Armor + Tower shield)

Without doing a gigantic amount of number crunching, this seems to give a definitive win to the Fighter based on Sonofzeal's figures, and isn't an extreme build designed just to win one fight - despite the conventional wisdom of "AC doesn't matter at high levels", I think most experienced players are aware it matters quite a lot at low and mid levels.

The fighter can also go full defense and try to wait out the wizards Shield spell - after that, it's gravy.
+6? +1 BAB, +4 STR, +1 WF, -2 Tower Shield is +4. Then I'm really not sure how you're able to afford a Tower Shield (30gp), a Dwarven waraxe (30gp) and Breastplate (200gp) all at first level - Fighters only get 150gp of average starting gold, and an absolute maximum of 240. Even barring this egregious cheat in the Fighter's favour, you're only hitting the Wizard about 35% of the time, and when you do hit him, you have about a 50% chance of bungling the kill.

[dextercorvia]

The point is not that random Joe the wizard is automatically a better fighter that Stefen the Fighter -- That doesn't happen until polymorph or shapechange. The point is that a Wizard can be optimized to out-melee an optimized melee Fighter, which says something about Fighter's baseline optimization levels.

[Killer Angel]

(That said, a lvl 1 Fighter is probably a more useful ally than a lvl 1 Wizard, simply because the Wizard is tapped after that fight and the Fighter can keep rockin' it up.

Even that is debatable:
Lev. 1 wizard got few spells.
Lev. 1 fighter got few HP.
1 hit taken, and without healing the fighter will have problems, if it wants to stay alive 'til the end of the day.

[Ursus the Grim]

The point is not that random Joe the wizard is automatically a better fighter that Stefen the Fighter -- That doesn't happen until polymorph or shapechange. The point is that a Wizard can be optimized to out-melee an optimized melee Fighter, which says something about Fighter's baseline optimization levels.

But they are.

A wizard, barring low Intelligence (the character and the player) will eventually get spells that make him a better melee fighter than the fighter, regardless of feats or such. Looking at the ability boosters and the touch spells. At first level they can deal Str damage plus normal damage on a touch attack. They can also make a touch attack at +3 bonus (which presented fighter doesn't wear metal?). Third level they get Vampiric Touch, letting them (again, ignoring the vast majority of the fighter's AC) deal 2d6 and HEAL it.

If touch spells are out, you still have Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance. Bear's endurance brings average hit points per hit die up from 2.5 (d4) to 4.5 (d8). That's an 80% increase. Cat's Grace increases AC by another 2 (its unlikely that the Wizard has a maximum Dexterity bonus), easily mimicking a heavy shield on its own, except it gets to apply to touch attacks, trip attacks, etc. If using Weapon Finesse, it goes straight to attack bonus. If not, you've got Bull's Strength, buffing attack and damage by 2 each (or 3 to damage if a two handed weapon.

The original challenge was at 20th level. These discrepancies, these counters to the Fighter 'advantages' start showing up at 1st. Any fight against a wizard would have to be unbuffed for the fighter to stand a chance.

A fighter has to choose feats and optimize to be a decent fighter.

[sonofzeal]

Even that is debatable:
Lev. 1 wizard got few spells.
Lev. 1 fighter got few HP.
1 hit taken, and without healing the fighter will have problems, if it wants to stay alive 'til the end of the day.
But the Wizard has the same problem. One arrow or javalin, or one failure of the Fighter to hold Aggro, and the Wizard's in even worse condition. Level 1 is kind of borked.

[Retech]

If touch attacks count as melee...

-Insert touch attack here- + Fell Drain + Metamagic reducers?



If we were optimising for a level 1 wizard that was designed to kill other level 1s with or without melee, I think there was a cantrip that hit with no save which you could stack fell drain with to win automatically if you won initiative.

[dextercorvia]

But the Wizard has the same problem. One arrow or javalin, or one failure of the Fighter to hold Aggro, and the Wizard's in even worse condition. Level 1 is kind of borked.

So, if both Wizard and Fighter can be taken down as one hit wonders, and both can remove a threat in one melee hit, which is better? The one with more options to remove threats.

[Occasional Sage]

So when does this actually take place?

[RaggedAngel]

So when does this actually take place?

I believe sometime next week. I thank you guys for all the ideas, by the way; I think we're going to go with level 10 instead, as it's more balanced than level 20.

...In other words, he's afraid of Shapechange and I want to prove my point without 9th level spells.

He is, I believe, just going with a standard ubercharger with a greatsword. That said, I could use a few build ideas; namely, is there any reason to be a race other than Human? What are the highlight spells I should pick? I don't normally gish it up, and while I have some ideas it would be nice to hear from you all.

[OracleofWuffing]

:smallconfused: Er... wait, does the "60 ft apart" rule apply to the level 1 versus level 1 fights? 'Cause... In that situation, wouldn't the Dwarven fighter hit second, even if he wins initiative?


If we were optimising for a level 1 wizard that was designed to kill other level 1s with or without melee, I think there was a cantrip that hit with no save which you could stack fell drain with to win automatically if you won initiative.
Sonic Snap, I believe, is what you're thinking of. Well, that's a little bit misleading, Sonic Snap has a Will save to resist deafness, but it deals Sonic damage regardless of the save, so yeah, Fell Drain applies. That said, Races of the Dragon's Versatile Spellcaster and Complete Mage's Metamagic School Focus would probably trip the cheesewire at most tables.

[The Glyphstone]

I believe sometime next week. I thank you guys for all the ideas, by the way; I think we're going to go with level 10 instead, as it's more balanced than level 20.

...In other words, he's afraid of Shapechange and I want to prove my point without 9th level spells.

He is, I believe, just going with a standard ubercharger with a greatsword. That said, I could use a few build ideas; namely, is there any reason to be a race other than Human? What are the highlight spells I should pick? I don't normally gish it up, and while I have some ideas it would be nice to hear from you all.

That shrinks the BAB-difference in To-hit by 50% (20/10 vs. 10/5), so it somewhat works in your favor.

Polymorph into a Hydra, maybe, then tear him apart with 10 bite attacks? Abrupt Jaunt will save you from his charge if he gets one off.

[EarFall]

That shrinks the BAB-difference in To-hit by 50% (20/10 vs. 10/5), so it somewhat works in your favor.

Polymorph into a Hydra, maybe, then tear him apart with 10 bite attacks? Abrupt Jaunt will save you from his charge if he gets one off.

PHII isn't on the list of books, I believe. Otherwise Abrupt Jaunt defeats most things, including 18d12 Asmodeus'.... Asmodeii?

[Flickerdart]

You could always park your familiar between yourself and the Fighter. It might mean the little XP bomb goes down fighting, but it'll buy you the opportunity you need to Polymorph and win.

[JonestheSpy]

I'll say again, it's a pointless exercise because a wizard with their full spell complement to blow on one fight has a tremendous advantage above and beyond the power of any particular spell. But if you are going to do it, may I suggest trying it without the polymorph line of spells, which are commonly regarded as badly written and way overpowered, and are frequently nerfed/baned in actual games?

[RaggedAngel]

I'll say again, it's a pointless exercise because a wizard with their full spell complement to blow on one fight has a tremendous advantage above and beyond the power of any particular spell. But if you are going to do it, may I suggest trying it without the polymorph line of spells, which are commonly regarded as badly written and way overpowered, and are frequently nerfed/baned in actual games?

That's the plan. I intend to kill him with an actual weapon; it'll prove my point better.

[Ursus the Grim]

I believe sometime next week. I thank you guys for all the ideas, by the way; I think we're going to go with level 10 instead, as it's more balanced than level 20.

...In other words, he's afraid of Shapechange and I want to prove my point without 9th level spells.


...In other words, he's forced to admit that he is incorrect at level 20. You've won one point already.


I'll say again, it's a pointless exercise because a wizard with their full spell complement to blow on one fight has a tremendous advantage above and beyond the power of any particular spell. But if you are going to do it, may I suggest trying it without the polymorph line of spells, which are commonly regarded as badly written and way overpowered, and are frequently nerfed/baned in actual games?

But the opponent's stay was that a straight fighter was better at melee than a straight wizard. Nothing about the situation seemed to imply this was to prove balance. I think the whole exercise is exactly to prove that the Wizard IS overpowered, even in melee.

That being said, bringing it down to level 10 actually does indeed work in your favor. Less WBL and less feats mean less nasty tricks the fighter can bring. Many of the lower HD creatures are more brutal melee bruisers, wheras the High HD creatures usually have a host of useless SLA's. The Hydra has been mentioned for High damage output. I also recommend the Roper, especially if you pick up Combat Reflexes. Multiple AoOs with a 50 feet reach that force a Fort save or deal 2d8 Str. By the time he gets to you, he won't be hitting for much.

A thought just occurred to me. Technically, Draconic Polymorph appears in the SpC. Seriously, look in the Wizard spell list. But you'd have to go to Draconomicon to find it. Basically a higher HD cap (meh) but a buff to your scores.

If you're really afraid of his attacks, just go troll or kyton. Regeneration 5 (or 2 and DR) is still regeneration, and you can wield a weapon and benefit from a buff to your physical scores that probably eclipse his.

Essentially, your primary goal in this is to avoid getting hit. Because you aren't rolling, buffing initiative won't help (even though it should) and because your ref will probably decide that you are indeed flat-footed (thus no Quickened Spells), you should use up all your WBL on survival gear. I can't find it, but I'm sure there's an item in there somewhere.

Alternatively, you could just pay for a high-level Contingency with Dimension Door. Lasts easily for two weeks or more, and technically Contingency doesn't do anything, so its not a buff. Trigger could be when a hostile enemy moves within 10 feet of you. He can't adjust his charge easily, so bam, the glass cannon is wide open.

Does anyone have a likely build skeleton for a level 10 Ubercharger? I'm not terribly familiar with it.

Edit: Ah, so you definitely want to kill him with a weapon? Troll's still open for business. I would just recommend [Censored]'s Transformation, but because you've been neutered, you can't quite cast that.

Problem is that if you are denied buffs and first turn, you don't have the time to cast anything that can give you the edge. You need to either win time to cast half-a-dozen buffs, find a way to trigger them for free, or find some other way to turn you beast.

[Telonius]

Bare-bones charger, assumes Human

1 Power Attack, Blind-Fight
2 Improved Bull Rush
3 Mage Slayer
4 Pierce Magical Concealment
6 Shock Trooper, Leap Attack
8 Pierce Magical Protection
9 Feat
10 Fighter Feat

I think it's pretty likely that the Fighter will have all the feats listed up to level 8. They're the ubercharger standards, plus the (pretty fair) assumption that he's going to go with the Mage Slayer line. That leaves two spare feats.

Since ToB isn't allowed, his options are kind of limited. If I were designing this guy, the charging stuff basically guarantees a one-hit kill on a wizard if it connects. I wouldn't waste any more feats on specifically offensive stuff. What I would do, is rearrange the feats a little.

8 Combat Reflexes
9 Hold the Line
10 Pierce Magical Protection

This would probably give the Fighter the best chance of survival given the situation.

Interestingly enough, it could also give the Wizard a way of negating Mr. Charger, whether or not he goes first. Combat Reflexes/Hold the Line/Improved Trip as feats at 1, 3, and 6. (Unfortunately you won't qualify for Elusive Target (BAB prereq), which could further shut the Fighter down).

[maysarahs]

It might be a little late for suggestions especially for an underpowered, not very optimized one, but I have always wanted to build a wizard gish (though kinda just a straight wizard) specializing in using a spell called Thunderlance in the SpC as his main weapon. I think this would do the best job of convincing him of melee prowess since it provides the most " melee flavor" in fighting him. Just showing him that the sheer amount of spell options allows you to become a fighter, with your strongest stat as the main one for determining to hit, with a weapon that is treated as a lance (for charging) with a higher base damage might convince him that sure, he can be an ubercharger, but with just one spell, you can replicate an unoptimized one pretty easily. (add heroics for feat replication, and standard buff/ debuff)

[Endarire]

Just for reference:

A Core-Only Wizard20 vs. a Splatbook Fighter20 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Core-only_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20...?pg=1).

I expect things to go similar to this.

[Ursus the Grim]

Just for reference:

A Core-Only Wizard20 vs. a Splatbook Fighter20 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Core-only_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20...?pg=1).

I expect things to go similar to this.

That. . . was golden.

[RaggedAngel]

That. . . was golden.

...This is exactly what I needed. Excellent. However, the fighter didn't play very well. I'm pretty sure my friend isn't going to UMD at all, however. And I'm attempting to bash him to death, which isn't a good tactic for a wizard. He accepts that a wizard is stronger; I'm trying to prove that a wizard is better at melee combat.

[opticalshadow]

what level and what amount of wealth to they have? because a wizard is likly not even getting hit, and if hes a decent level he will have his immortality set up anyways, and so he cant even lose.

id give the wizard winning anyday over a fighter. any number of his spells are just auto win.

Edit: also given the fact youll prolly be high level, the wizard could pull out ultimate cheese in his life time acheiving pun pun esq power.


there is no scenario i see a fighter winning a wizard, maybe unbuffed and 60 ft away with the fighter going first, pending on items. but at this point the only thing you havemnt done is disallow magic to nerf the wizard in the duel.

a stright even fight under realistic conditions, the fighter would be dead before he knew the fight started.

edit2: if your just trying to prove your better at melee just explain to him you can turn into nearly any creature in dnd, and then buff yourself to inifinity. just go though the monster manuals and start picking out everything he couldnt 1v1 unbuffed, and remind him you will be.

[Flickerdart]

what level and what amount of wealth to they have? because a wizard is likly not even getting hit, and if hes a decent level he will have his immortality set up anyways, and so he cant even lose.

id give the wizard winning anyday over a fighter. any number of his spells are just auto win.

Edit: also given the fact youll prolly be high level, the wizard could pull out ultimate cheese in his life time acheiving pun pun esq power.


there is no scenario i see a fighter winning a wizard, maybe unbuffed and 60 ft away with the fighter going first, pending on items. but at this point the only thing you havemnt done is disallow magic to nerf the wizard in the duel.

a stright even fight under realistic conditions, the fighter would be dead before he knew the fight started.
The duel is at 10th level, presumably with full WBL. As for immortality... Lesser Planar Bind a Nightmare, force it to astral project you, stuff your body into a Bag of Holding along with a Bottle of Air, immortality complete. The duration on astral projection is indefinite, so it's not really a buff; the Wizard could have bound the Nightmare a year and a day ago.

[Gnaeus]

You could always park your familiar between yourself and the Fighter. It might mean the little XP bomb goes down fighting, but it'll buy you the opportunity you need to Polymorph and win.

Familiar use could really help you a lot at that level. 6 ranks in cross class UMD + an Imp or Quasit + a good wand or 4 (Level 1-2 wands are cheap) could shift things a lot in your favor.

[Gnome Alone]

Two stray observations:

1.) Not that I actually disapprove or am trying to be a snotbag or anything, but I find it interesting that apparently many posters identify with wizards, or at least the superiority of arcane magic, to the point that most of the suggestions have been geared toward helping the OP's wizard (cast Shapechange, Polymorph or Alter Self, etc.), when she actually asked to help optimize her opponent the fighter, to make the demonstration of wizardly melée power all the more cutting. (Horrific pun not intended [yet left in because I have amused myself inadvertently.])

2.) I think I may be getting the hang of this optimization thing a little bit, as my first thought upon reading the first post was, indeed, "Shapechange into a dragon and eat him."

[JonestheSpy]

But the opponent's stay was that a straight fighter was better at melee than a straight wizard. Nothing about the situation seemed to imply this was to prove balance. I think the whole exercise is exactly to prove that the Wizard IS overpowered, even in melee.



But would said wizard perform as well in melee in four separate battles - the supposed average encounter day - as a fighter? Otherwise, it proves nothing accept that wizards who can afford to blow any and all of their spells in a single fight have a huge advantage.

[Eldariel]

Not that I actualy disapprove or am trying to be a snotbag or anything, but I find it interesting that apparently many posters identify with wizards, or at least the superiority of arcane magic, to the point that most of the suggestions have been geared toward helping the OP's wizard (cast Shapechange, Polymorph or Alter Self, etc.), when she actually asked to help optimize her opponent the fighter, to make the demonstration of wizardly melée power all the more cutting. (Horrific pun not intended [yet left in because I have amused myself inadvertently.])

This is because the Fighter is absolutely trivial to optimize while the Wizard has more options. Fighter picks up Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, reach weapon, Mage Slayer, Combat Reflexes, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, EWP: Spiked Chain or some such and he's done. It's really, Fighters are supereasy to make once you know what you're doing.

This mostly owes to the fact that there's exactly one way to make a semi-passable Fighter with these sources allowed and that's a charging controller (guess you could pick up Rapid Shot for the lulz but it's unlike to be very efficient without more sources; you can hit but the hits won't be in the ballpark of one-shotting a Wizard and you won't get a second turn of shots). I mean, yeah, you can do a bit with the Devotion-feats from Complete Champion but really, Thug + 14 Int + Knowledge Devotion is probably the extent of that.


But would said wizard perform as well in melee in four separate battles - the supposed average encounter day - as a fighter? Otherwise, it proves nothing accept that wizards who can afford to blow any and all of their spells in a single fight have a huge advantage.

I've never seen any of these Wizards blow even half of their spells in one of these fights. Wizards just have quite a few slots, to say nothing of the long duration buffs generally employed which could easily last through multiple encounters especially if doing something like a Dungeon (10 min/level buffs last almost two hours on these levels already; easily enough to go through most dungeons).

Furthermore, if we pit the Wiz against a Fighter of equal level, it's supposed to be a 50/50 fight provided you expend all your resources; that is, you're only expected to beat one such fight a day by CR guidelines and then you're expected to avoid fighting. If you want to go the 4 fights per day, you need to drop the CR by 4 as well.

[Veyr]

Of course, in the linked thread, Lycanthromancer's Wizard would have had absolutely no trouble whatsoever going through four of her opponent's Fighters in a day. Hell, there would have been no trouble taking all four at once.

[Ursus the Grim]

Two stray observations:

1.) Not that I actualy disapprove or am trying to be a snotbag or anything, but I find it interesting that apparently many posters identify with wizards, or at least the superiority of arcane magic, to the point that most of the suggestions have been geared toward helping the OP's wizard (cast Shapechange, Polymorph or Alter Self, etc.), when she actually asked to help optimize her opponent the fighter, to make the demonstration of wizardly melée power all the more cutting. (Horrific pun not intended [yet left in because I have amused myself inadvertently.])

2.) I think I may be getting the hang of this optimization thing a little bit, as my first thought upon reading the first post was, indeed, "Shapechange into a dragon and eat him."

1) Actually, I hate wizards. But its fun to prove just how broken they are. Also, I don't recall seeing that part about buffing the fighter originally, and the OP's been edited since. I agree that regardless, many of us jumped on the "CRUSH ZE FIGHTER" Bandwagon, but it was fuuuuun.

2.) Yeah, its a shame Dragons have so many Hit Die for their CR. He can't afford to turn into any of the good ones.


But would said wizard perform as well in melee in four separate battles - the supposed average encounter day - as a fighter? Otherwise, it proves nothing accept that wizards who can afford to blow any and all of their spells in a single fight have a huge advantage.

This is true. In my defense, though, I mentioned only a few, fairly long duration buffs and Shapechange/Polymorph. I don't recall saying "Timestop and half a dozen empowered, quickened, maximized delayed blast fireballs." Yes, I know that's impossible with a Wizard 20, but the point remains.

[Flickerdart]

But would said wizard perform as well in melee in four separate battles - the supposed average encounter day - as a fighter? Otherwise, it proves nothing accept that wizards who can afford to blow any and all of their spells in a single fight have a huge advantage.
Yes.

Fighter: I charge, deal ni damage, my target dies.
Target's best friend, Bob: I 5ft step within melee range and open with a full attack.
Fighter: I am now a full attack down, against what is most likely a superior opponent, and cannot charge him in order to kill his face. I am not long for this world.

OR

Bob: I am an enormous monster that picks up the Fighter by his neck and spins him right round until the head pops off. My strength score, large amount of HD and size mean that he is unlikely to beat my grapple check.
Fighter: It would appear that I am missing my head. This is not working as well as I had hoped.

The Wizard has the capability to raise a useful defense (miss chances, to name but one) against his enemies. The best Fighter can do is shell out megabucks on a Cloak of Displacement, and pray.

[opticalshadow]

like stated above, people side with the wizard so much more easily because its just a stupid notation. you would have to handicap the mage so powerfuly to even give the fighter a hint of chance its just becomes comical. in much the same way rigging a race betweem a hamster and airplane to see which would cross an ocean in less time/

the problem is, the fighter and wizard will have acess to the exact same items, the iwzard just has better class features, there inst anything the fighter can do a wizard cant. the most optimized fighter built specifically to destroy a mage, still depends on a fight where to start at a set distence with rules, where in the best case possible its a int round winner takes all, becuase under any real condition, the fighter wouldnt even know of the wizard as his life ends.

[Gnome Alone]

Also, I don't recall seeing that part about buffing the fighter originally, and the OP's been edited since.


He will tweak the Fighter however he likes before the matches; that said, I doubt he'll do more than ensure I didn't sneakily gimp him. Again, he's not an optimizer; for the spirit of the challenge, however, I really do want the best Fighter we can build.

That is the impression I got from that, anyway.

[Endarire]

For example, a level 5 Human Wizard, with the right preps, can have all these active. No, none are from items:

-Alter self into a Tren (Serpent Kingdoms 87) for 8 natural AC. Core has the Troglodyte for 6 natural AC. 10 min/lvl.

-Displacment for a 50% miss chance. Crit or no crit, there just went 50% of the Fighter's goodness. 1 rnd/lvl. Substitute blur for a 20% miss chance for 1 min/lvl and the ability to make Hide checks due to concealment.

-Mage armor for +4 armor AC. That armor AC is comparable to the group's front-liner at this level. 1 hour/lvl.

-Mirror image for d4+1 fakes. Images can only be destroyed by targeted attacks that actually hit them. 1 min/lvl.

-Shield for +4 shield AC. 1 min/lvl.

And these are core, and reasonable for a prepared Wizard to have on hand if he believes he'll need to be "in the fight." Alter self: Tren, mage armor, and shield can turn a 14 DEX Human into a short-term front-liner with 30 AC.

I'm reminded of this Penny Arcade comic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/5/13/). Replace "Medic" with "Wizard."

[ZombyWoof]

Summoned monsters suck. A fighter would cleave through them, and only if the wizard was a specialist conjurer that used a rapid casting variant. Otherwise the wizard would get splattered as soon as he started casting.
Um no...

Summon: 1d4+1 Avorals. 5 Avorals each with Empowered Magic Missile as an at-will 3/day ability? These Magic Missiles would be doing (5d4+5)*1.5 damage each? Five of those (if you have Rod of Maximize) is (25d4+25)*1.5 or an average of 131 damage per round... and the only thing you need to do as a wizard is keep them off of you?

1d4+1 Vrocks. 5 Vrocks each with their spores? 5d8 damage, then 5d4 damage per round for 10 rounds comes out to 180 damage... and they can release them every three rounds... AS A FREE ACTION.

As for summoning, Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm) and Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) do a very good job of keeping our fighter out.

[Ursus the Grim]

That is the impression I got from that, anyway.

Well, yeah. Its obvious now. What I meant was that I didn't see that there to begin with. You're right.

[Flickerdart]

Um no...

Summon: 1d4+1 Avorals. 5 Avorals each with Empowered Magic Missile as an at-will 3/day ability? These Magic Missiles would be doing (5d4+5)*1.5 damage each? Five of those (if you have Rod of Maximize) is (25d4+25)*1.5 or an average of 131 damage per round... and the only thing you need to do as a wizard is keep them off of you?

1d4+1 Vrocks. 5 Vrocks each with their spores? 5d8 damage, then 5d4 damage per round for 10 rounds comes out to 180 damage... and they can release them every three rounds... AS A FREE ACTION.

As for summoning, Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm) and Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) do a very good job of keeping our fighter out.
Damage over time sucks the big one, though, and CL8 missiles are a non-issue with 20th level SR. Sure, you could waste your spell on summoning vrocks or avorals, and then they could do their actions and whatever, or you could use the slot for a real spell and win right away.

[Eldariel]

Um no...

Summon: 1d4+1 Avorals. 5 Avorals each with Empowered Magic Missile as an at-will 3/day ability? These Magic Missiles would be doing (5d4+5)*1.5 damage each? Five of those (if you have Rod of Maximize) is (25d4+25)*1.5 or an average of 131 damage per round... and the only thing you need to do as a wizard is keep them off of you?

1d4+1 Vrocks. 5 Vrocks each with their spores? 5d8 damage, then 5d4 damage per round for 10 rounds comes out to 180 damage... and they can release them every three rounds... AS A FREE ACTION.

As for summoning, Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm) and Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) do a very good job of keeping our fighter out.

I guess he was talking about low level Summon Monsters tho. SMI isn't exactly the brightest of the spells and 1 round duration doesn't help either.

[JonestheSpy]

I've never seen any of these Wizards blow even half of their spells in one of these fights. Wizards just have quite a few slots, to say nothing of the long duration buffs generally employed which could easily last through multiple encounters especially if doing something like a Dungeon (10 min/level buffs last almost two hours on these levels already; easily enough to go through most dungeons).


You forget that the spellcaster has to constantly choose which spells they should use and which they might need more later. It's not just number of spell slots, but choice - you know, that whole thing that makes the wizard superior to a sorcerer. And two hours to go through an entire dungeon level? Let's just say the campaigns you play in are vastly different than mine.

As for your other point - sure, I was assuming multiple CR-appropriate encounters.


Yes.

Fighter: I charge, deal ni damage, my target dies.
Target's best friend, Bob: I 5ft step within melee range and open with a full attack.
Fighter: I am now a full attack down, against what is most likely a superior opponent, and cannot charge him in order to kill his face. I am not long for this world.

OR

Bob: I am an enormous monster that picks up the Fighter by his neck and spins him right round until the head pops off. My strength score, large amount of HD and size mean that he is unlikely to beat my grapple check.
Fighter: It would appear that I am missing my head. This is not working as well as I had hoped.


I also love how the fighter-haters like to frame every hypothetical situation so the fighter acts like an idiot and is put it impossible situations to demonstrate their incompetence, while wizards never ever meet magic-resistant foes who are capable of intelligent tactics.

[Doc Roc]

They don't use intelligent tactics because that would require being a caster.

[Killer Angel]

I also love how the fighter-haters like to frame every hypothetical situation so the fighter acts like an idiot and is put it impossible situations to demonstrate their incompetence

While your observation regardin the attitude can sometime be true, it's also truer that, usually, if the fighter wants to deal damage, it must go in melee against stronger and bigger critters.
Which is not exactly the smartest thing to do.

[Sir Homeslice]

I also love how the fighter-haters like to frame every hypothetical situation so the fighter acts like an idiot and is put it impossible situations to demonstrate their incompetence, while wizards never ever meet magic-resistant foes who are capable of intelligent tactics.

I love how you like to bash the people who aren't on your side in lieu of an actual argument while the other side has a much more stable leg to stand on.

[EarFall]

You forget that the spellcaster has to constantly choose which spells they should use and which they might need more later. It's not just number of spell slots, but choice - you know, that whole thing that makes the wizard superior to a sorcerer. And two hours to go through an entire dungeon level? Let's just say the campaigns you play in are vastly different than mine.

As for your other point - sure, I was assuming multiple CR-appropriate encounters.



I also love how the fighter-haters like to frame every hypothetical situation so the fighter acts like an idiot and is put it impossible situations to demonstrate their incompetence, while wizards never ever meet magic-resistant foes who are capable of intelligent tactics.

The problem here is a constant redefinition of what's available by both sides. First it's core only, until that doesn't benefit the other, then they pull something from another book. The other person calls that book "munchkin" (despite, aside from celerity, most of the nonsensically powerful spells being Core), and then both sides beat their heads against the wall.

Feats like alacritous cogitation and there's another that's even more stupidly powerful mean that even if the wizard didn't prepare some obscure spell, they can cast it. The other feat literally lets them cast spontaneously from their spellbook at the cost of two spell slots for one. Worse yet, they can burn two prepared spells of one level to cast one spontaneously of that level or higher!

So you're right, many wizards won't have that many melee buffs prepared, but those feats make it increasingly unnecessary to worry about what is prepared. You get more spells assuming you have the correct ones, of course, so your staple spells get prepared. And then you've got a potentially unlimited number of options for when they aren't correct.

I'm sure your response is "I don't use those feats", to which I'll respond that I've completely overhauled the fighter to make them not pieces of crap... but that in no way actually affects the argument that the wizard will kill the fighter every time after a certain level, probably around 9... and that's assuming melee. I give it good odds to kill the fighter at every level after 3 otherwise.

I also give it good odds to win encounters against monsters better. Could a party of two wizards fight better than a party of a wizard and a fighter? Yes. One could specialize, in fact, in being a distraction, which is what the fighter is (unless the fighter specializes in some irritatingly limited tactic such as trip).

You think because we know fighters are AWFUL as written we hate fighters? Fighters are my second favorite class. I played one when I was 8 and had a redbox game. Admittedly, wizards are my favorite, but I don't like them for their power, I like them for their smarts. If I was all about the power I'd like clerics and esp. druids. But I don't. Druids are actually my least favorite class, and I never play 'em. No, for me, I argue how bad they are in the hopes that people will re-tool fighters so they DON'T suck.

They'll never be Tier 1, but they don't need to be.

[Telonius]

I also love how the fighter-haters like to frame every hypothetical situation so the fighter acts like an idiot and is put it impossible situations to demonstrate their incompetence, while wizards never ever meet magic-resistant foes who are capable of intelligent tactics.

If "A Fighter enters into combat with a wizard, under the most favorable rules and conditions possible for the Fighter," is the same as "The Fighter is acting like an idiot and is in an impossible situation," I think the argument is pretty much over.

[faceroll]

Um no...

Summon: 1d4+1 Avorals. 5 Avorals each with Empowered Magic Missile as an at-will 3/day ability? These Magic Missiles would be doing (5d4+5)*1.5 damage each? Five of those (if you have Rod of Maximize) is (25d4+25)*1.5 or an average of 131 damage per round... and the only thing you need to do as a wizard is keep them off of you?

1d4+1 Vrocks. 5 Vrocks each with their spores? 5d8 damage, then 5d4 damage per round for 10 rounds comes out to 180 damage... and they can release them every three rounds... AS A FREE ACTION.

As for summoning, Resilient Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm) and Wall of Force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) do a very good job of keeping our fighter out.

Yeah, um, how is a level 1-3 wizard doing any of this again?


Damage over time sucks the big one, though, and CL8 missiles are a non-issue with 20th level SR. Sure, you could waste your spell on summoning vrocks or avorals, and then they could do their actions and whatever, or you could use the slot for a real spell and win right away.

Ding ding ding.
The best way to make SM spells good is get access to them 3 spell levels early via warmage or some such.


While your observation regardin the attitude can sometime be true, it's also truer that, usually, if the fighter wants to deal damage, it must go in melee against stronger and bigger critters.
Which is not exactly the smartest thing to do.

If playing vanilla monsters, it's not impossible to make it so that YOU are the bigger and stronger monster. Or, at least, with decent itemization and not being scared of potions, you can survive a bit. A ring of FoM, for instance, covers grappling, which just about every heavy over CR9 will do.


You think because we know fighters are AWFUL as written we hate fighters? Fighters are my second favorite class. I played one when I was 8 and had a redbox game. Admittedly, wizards are my favorite, but I don't like them for their power, I like them for their smarts. If I was all about the power I'd like clerics and esp. druids. But I don't. Druids are actually my least favorite class, and I never play 'em. No, for me, I argue how bad they are in the hopes that people will re-tool fighters so they DON'T suck.

Oh man, I know. In your typical game, druids will by far be the most powerful, most competent, all around badass character at the table But I just can't get into playing some nature worshipping tree hugging hippy. The things that make a druid tick don't seem like at all the the things that would have him hanging out with adventurers.

[Arbane]

some nature worshipping tree hugging hippy.

The Druids (originally) came from one of the five most terrifying civilzations in history (http://www.cracked.com/article_16972_the-5-most-terrifying-civilizations-in-history-world.html). Mother nature can be a real bitch at times, and her worshippers can be just as bad.


The things that make a druid tick don't seem like at all the the things that would have him hanging out with adventurers.

That goes for a lot of characters class stereotypes. Why isn't the Cleric off praying in a temple? Why isn't the Monk meditating? Why's the Wizard risking their life instead of staying in a nice warm lab doing research?

Characters generally need an motivation. Or at least an excuse.

[faceroll]

The Druids (originally) came from one of the five most terrifying civilzations in history (http://www.cracked.com/article_16972_the-5-most-terrifying-civilizations-in-history-world.html). Mother nature can be a real bitch at times, and her worshippers can be just as bad.

Sure, if I played by myself, that'd work. But the druid's motives just don't seem to mesh will with a non-chaotic or non-evil party, and even then, the druid seems more like he's going to be off burninating or bringing plagues than socializing with 3 murderous hobos who like treasure more than dragons do.


That goes for a lot of characters class stereotypes. Why isn't the Cleric off praying in a temple? Why isn't the Monk meditating? Why's the Wizard risking their life instead of staying in a nice warm lab doing research?

Characters generally need an motivation. Or at least an excuse.

Because those characters have inwards paths- venerating a god, venerating themselves, getting stupidly powerful. But a druid is like a cleric with a very specific flavor, and that very specific flavor just doesn't make sense in the games I play in. I just don't see a druid worrying about material things, hoarding gold to trade at the market, etc. Nature's holy warrior is going to ignore about half the plot hooks out there because he doesn't give a damn about the rewards, the threats, or the weak humanoid races.

[Telonius]

Adventuring for a stereotypical Wizard makes some amount of sense - gotta earn those crafting XPs somehow, and "shortcut to power" is a great motivator. Stereotypical Cleric isn't in the temple doing the preaching because that's what Adepts and Experts are for. Stereotypical Monk is a bit harder, but going on a quest to test the strength of his ki against others isn't a hard stretch.

For Druid? Their whole thing is being about natural cycles, keeping in balance, that sort of thing. It's a bit harder to mesh that with the standard "Kill the dudes and take their stuff!" parts of a typical adventure. It can certainly be done, depending on the kind of campaign. If the cultists open a gate to the Abyss, all the natural world will suffer. Maybe he's on a personal environmental crusade to help the city-dwellers understand the natural world. But those seem a little bit more of a stretch than the others. (Don't know why it seems that way to me, it just does).

Of course if you're going to really carefully craft a character, their individual backgrounds and motivations are going to matter a whole lot more than the stereotype of what their class is about. But I would guess that not too many people put that much effort into it.

[faceroll]

Of course if you're going to really carefully craft a character, their individual backgrounds and motivations are going to matter a whole lot more than the stereotype of what their class is about. But I would guess that not too many people put that much effort into it.

I try to build characters that are party friendly & campaign friendly. Druids tend to have rather... niche preferences.

OTOH, they are so stupidly powerful. Just about everywhere a typical character is weak, the druid is strong. It gets diplomacy and doesn't need to dump charisma. It can turn into a bear, it has a pet bear, it flies and casts spells (the druid spell list is almost as good as the wizards, no joke), and can handle the wilderness no problem. But I just can't... do it. Which is kinda weird, I'm kind of an outdoorsy person and really like the raw isolation of big skies and mountains and self reliance. But in my D&D? I dunno man.

[Ursus the Grim]

Because those characters have inwards paths- venerating a god, venerating themselves, getting stupidly powerful. But a druid is like a cleric with a very specific flavor, and that very specific flavor just doesn't make sense in the games I play in. I just don't see a druid worrying about material things, hoarding gold to trade at the market, etc. Nature's holy warrior is going to ignore about half the plot hooks out there because he doesn't give a damn about the rewards, the threats, or the weak humanoid races.

Generally, its up to the DM to provide the hooks. I play druids often, and there's normally a good hook that I have to bite. My current one involves a necromancer poisoning a town's river in order to create more bodies to use.

It also helps to look at things Druids generally don't like. Aberrations, undead, constructs, and the like. There are a lot of things they view as offensive towards the natural cycle that happen to be involved in plots. This is especially true when the more grand plots come into play. If Tharivol Xiloscient of the Silver Grove doesn't think the impending demonic invasion is going to impact the natural world, he is a silly silly man.

Back on topic, would a spiked chain trip build help thwart an ubercharger?

[Eldariel]

Back on topic, would a spiked chain trip build help thwart an ubercharger?

With these sources? Yes, if you pick Hold the Line or outreach the Charger. Wizard without combat feats might have trouble on that front though, not being able to cast all that many spells. But yeah, Trip is a good choice given it ignores BAB.

[Ursus the Grim]

With these sources? Yes, if you pick Hold the Line or outreach the Charger. Wizard without combat feats might have trouble on that front though, not being able to cast all that many spells. But yeah, Trip is a good choice given it ignores BAB.

So for the Wizard, picking up Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, and Improved Trip with EWP Spiked Chain would be my recommendation. These were all already suggested by Telonius, I learned after researching lockdown builds. You've got enough feats as human for all of those, and once locked down you can just cast the spells you need to get your edge back. Unless he's using a reach weapon too, you can ditch Improved Trip. Hold the Line will keep him from getting close to you and ruin his charge. Advice? Keep reasonable intelligence, have at least 13 Str and Dex. Not that hard to do, given 10th level WBL.

This issue is, as mentioned multiple times, that you are beginning half of them flatfooted, and thus can't make your AoO's, or pretty much defend yourself at all. In the great realm of the Complete Tomes and such, I would suspect there would lie a way to defend oneself when flat-footed, but I am not aware of such.

I believe Telonius already posted a decent ubercharger for the fighter to use.

[Flickerdart]

I also love how the fighter-haters like to frame every hypothetical situation so the fighter acts like an idiot and is put it impossible situations to demonstrate their incompetence, while wizards never ever meet magic-resistant foes who are capable of intelligent tactics.
I would very much enjoy watching you try to be a melee combatant without entering into melee range.

[Doc Roc]

I would very much enjoy watching you try to be a melee combatant without entering into melee range.

I'd pay to watch that, and you don't get bloodstorm blade because it's from a splat.

[Killer Angel]

If playing vanilla monsters, it's not impossible to make it so that YOU are the bigger and stronger monster. Or, at least, with decent itemization and not being scared of potions, you can survive a bit. A ring of FoM, for instance, covers grappling, which just about every heavy over CR9 will do.


Agreed, but not all the monsters are vanilla, and if the fighter is competent and with good gear (let's say "optimized"?), I suppose that also the monsters will be accordingly dangerous.
On a related note: with a fighter (and many feats to spend) a ring of FoM is still costly, at mid level (9-10)... wouldn't it be cheaper (although less effective) something like close quarter fighting, saving money for other kind of useful equipment?

[EarFall]

Agreed, but not all the monsters are vanilla, and if the fighter is competent and with good gear (let's say "optimized"?), I suppose that also the monsters will be accordingly dangerous.
On a related note: with a fighter (and many feats to spend) a ring of FoM is still costly, at mid level (9-10)... wouldn't it be cheaper (although less effective) something like close quarter fighting, saving money for other kind of useful equipment?

Possibly, but FoM stops a zillion other things that ruin fighters.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Wouldn't the easiest way to shut down the fighter (ie not worry about initiative) be to buy a wagon and either park it between the two of you or be inside it when the fight starts? I don't think you will ever lose then.

[Killer Angel]

Possibly, but FoM stops a zillion other things that ruin fighters.

That's absolutely true, but you can spend those 40k in something else, more useful than a "situational" FoM and functional also when you'd need FoM. Staying in Core magical objects, Ring of blinking and Cape of the mountebank, for example.

[faceroll]

Agreed, but not all the monsters are vanilla, and if the fighter is competent and with good gear (let's say "optimized"?), I suppose that also the monsters will be accordingly dangerous.
On a related note: with a fighter (and many feats to spend) a ring of FoM is still costly, at mid level (9-10)... wouldn't it be cheaper (although less effective) something like close quarter fighting, saving money for other kind of useful equipment?

Ehh, all the bs wizard CharOp always assumes vanilla monsters. Why doesn't an optimized fighter get vanilla monsters?


That's absolutely true, but you can spend those 40k in something else, more useful than a "situational" FoM and functional also when you'd need FoM. Staying in Core magical objects, Ring of blinking and Cape of the mountebank, for example.

Uh, the ring is awesome against any cloud spells that might hinder movement, being underwater, being in webs. The amount of total "no" effects a ring of FoM lets you ignore is great. The ring should really cost like 200,000gp. But then, you'd only ever see it on wizards cause they don't really need much gear, anyway.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I also love how the fighter-haters like to frame every hypothetical situation so the fighter acts like an idiot and is put it impossible situations to demonstrate their incompetence, while wizards never ever meet magic-resistant foes who are capable of intelligent tactics.

I love how you forget that they're standing 60 ft. apart with no difficult terrain so the fighter can charge on the first round.

[olentu]

I love how you forget that they're standing 60 ft. apart with no difficult terrain so the fighter can charge on the first round.

Oh come now I would agree that the situation is "impossible" I mean what kind of wizard forgets to cast day long or longer buffs half the time.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I love how you forget that they're standing 60 ft. apart with no difficult terrain so the fighter can charge on the first round.

To be fair, a Wizard using the aforementioned wagon tactic would cause serious problems for Mr. Ubercharger.

[Delcor]

I would like to present my humble opinion.

ALL OF IT, understand, EVERYTHING that has been said, DEPENDS

No matter how you put, optimization, buffed, 60ft, no ft unbuffed or whatever, almost no argument is sound, because it all depends on almost every detail of each build. I think that duels prove nothing, and will remain stubborn in that sense. Gear matters a lot, and with the budget of a lvl 20, thats a lot of room for gear planning. Also tactics, initiative, charge, and all that, depends and will vary, which will inevitably lead to some advantage for someone. I believe that there are some situations where the a fighter could beat a wizard It also depends on your definition of "straight up melee confrontation". Shapechange, in the situation that has been layed out in this forum, I believe would be cheating, because then your just saying can a fighter toe to toe a dragon or whatever the wizard transforms into, when the focus is on the wizard. "Or we could summon a hoard of angels" would also be cheating, your trying to prove the wizard could beat the fighter, not the wizards pet solar. The Ring of nine lives, would be cheating; if you kill Orcus, but he gets back up because he had a ring of nine lives, did you defeat him? I think it should be first kill. Its almost impossible to make this into a fair fight, and I don't think it proves much either way.

It all depends on a lto of things, and it is essentially a pointless argument all in the sense that, it all comes down to if you are having fun. Ok I know I'm gonan get ragged on for this :frown:

[Adamantrue]

1.) Not that I actually disapprove or am trying to be a snotbag or anything, but I find it interesting that apparently many posters identify with wizards, or at least the superiority of arcane magic, to the point that most of the suggestions have been geared toward helping the OP's wizard (cast Shapechange, Polymorph or Alter Self, etc.), when she actually asked to help optimize her opponent the fighter, to make the demonstration of wizardly melée power all the more cutting. (Horrific pun not intended [yet left in because I have amused myself inadvertently.]) Could the Fighter max out Use Magic Device, and grab a scroll with Antimagic Field for 1650?

I'm only bringing this up because the poster specifically wants to play the Wizard as a Fighter in a melee situation, and if the Fighter can remove magic from the equation (admittedly, including his own), all they have is the base stats and mundane abilities, which in this case would be in the Fighter's favor.

[Delcor]

Could the Fighter max out Use Magic Device, and grab a scroll with Antimagic Field for 1650?


Disjunction breaks anti magic fields :P

[Adamantrue]

Wasn't this at level 10 now?

[Delcor]

My mistake :smalleek:

[NNescio]

Wasn't this at level 10 now?

Trying to hit DC 31 with only six ranks in UMD is somewhat hard to do. At least not without some op-fu (e.g. Item Familiar).

[MeeposFire]

Could the Fighter max out Use Magic Device, and grab a scroll with Antimagic Field for 1650?

I'm only bringing this up because the poster specifically wants to play the Wizard as a Fighter in a melee situation, and if the Fighter can remove magic from the equation (admittedly, including his own), all they have is the base stats and mundane abilities, which in this case would be in the Fighter's favor.

In my opinion a fighter using a wizard's tactics to win negates the validity of this contest as much as a wizard using those tricks. This is supposed to be a duel of a warrior versus a wizard pretending to be one. A fighter pretending to be a wizard is not helping this goal, it just muddies the discussion.

[NNescio]

In my opinion a fighter using a wizard's tactics to win negates the validity of this contest as much as a wizard using those tricks. This is supposed to be a duel of a warrior versus a wizard pretending to be one. A fighter pretending to be a wizard is not helping this goal, it just muddies the discussion.

AKA "Congratulations, you've proven that a fighter emulating a wizard is better than a wizard emulating a fighter." (Or vice versa) Which doesn't help the argument in either case anyway.

[Adamantrue]

AKA "Congratulations, you've proven that a fighter emulating a wizard is better than a wizard emulating a fighter." (Or vice versa) Which doesn't help the argument in either case anyway.
In my opinion a fighter using a wizard's tactics to win negates the validity of this contest as much as a wizard using those tricks. This is supposed to be a duel of a warrior versus a wizard pretending to be one. A fighter pretending to be a wizard is not helping this goal, it just muddies the discussion. I just read through 5 pages of Polymorphs/Shapechanges/Timestops/etc, and THAT would be the "dirty" trick?

It actually seems like it could be a valid counter to the Fighter being able to function all day, while the Wizard is able to expend all of his spells in a single encounter. It also highlights one of the few Fighter strengths, in that he isn't helpless in the Antimagic Field, nor is he so incapable of using Magic himself (albeit, not with the sheer magnitude of the Wizard's options).

And then there is always the caveat that such a tactic only works in such a specific situation.

[MeeposFire]

I just read through 5 pages of Polymorphs/Shapechanges/Timestops/etc, and THAT would be the "dirty" trick?

It actually seems like it could be a valid counter to the Fighter being able to function all day, while the Wizard is able to expend all of his spells in a single encounter. It also highlights one of the few Fighter strengths, in that he isn't helpless in the Antimagic Field, nor is he so incapable of using Magic himself (albeit, not with the sheer magnitude of the Wizard's options).

And then there is always the caveat that such a tactic only works in such a specific situation.

Actually if you read what I have been writing I am against the wizard from using blatant caster tricks as well since it does not answer the question on whether a wizard can out melee a fighter (it answers the question that even the fighter player knows that a wizard using caster tricks beats a fighter which nobody is contesting). A wizard using polymorph is fine in my book but using time stop and gating in solars would not be since he would not be meleeing but summoning.

[Adamantrue]

Actually if you read what I have been writing I am against the wizard from using blatant caster tricks as well since it does not answer the question on whether a wizard can out melee a fighter (it answers the question that even the fighter player knows that a wizard using caster tricks beats a fighter which nobody is contesting). A wizard using polymorph is fine in my book but using time stop and gating in solars would not be since he would not be meleeing but summoning. So...a Wizard using Polymorph is fine, but a Fighter that works to have an answer to Polymorph is not (assuming being in the AM Field suppresses Polymorph)?

Is there nothing the Wizard can do in this situation to keep up, without breaking the rules of the contest?

[olentu]

I just read through 5 pages of Polymorphs/Shapechanges/Timestops/etc, and THAT would be the "dirty" trick?

It actually seems like it could be a valid counter to the Fighter being able to function all day, while the Wizard is able to expend all of his spells in a single encounter. It also highlights one of the few Fighter strengths, in that he isn't helpless in the Antimagic Field, nor is he so incapable of using Magic himself (albeit, not with the sheer magnitude of the Wizard's options).

And then there is always the caveat that such a tactic only works in such a specific situation.

Well this only really works well if the fighter has sufficiently fast nonmagical flight. If that is not available then the wizard need merely turn into something with sufficient reach grab a reach weapon and melee the fighter to death from overhead while out of range of the antimagic field.

Or alternatively if one is running with a charging build the reach need only be sufficient to hit the fighter from outside the field as presumably one charge will spell death.

[NNescio]

So...a Wizard using Polymorph is fine, but a Fighter that works to have an answer to Polymorph is not (assuming being in the AM Field suppresses Polymorph)?

Is there nothing the Wizard can do in this situation to keep up, without breaking the rules of the contest?

Polymorph is a Wizard class feature.

Antimagic Field is not a Fighter class feature.

Consider the following analogy, if you will:

Swordsman: Well, guns may be better than swords, but I'm very good at swords.

Gunman: Actually, you suck. I'll wager I can beat you at swordfighting, even though guns are my speciality. Let me get a sword.

Swordsman: In that case I'll use a gun instead.

Gunman: ... So you admit you suck at swords?

Also, again, how the freaking heck are you supposed to hit DC 31 reliably with only 6 ranks in UMD? Explain.

[Adamantrue]

See...now, it is getting interesting...

I assume Raptoran is out, since the Races books weren't on the list.

Mounts were mentioned before (don't quite remember the context). I'm not near any books at the moment, but is a Hippogriff or Pegasus within a reasonable price range at this point?

[edit]


Also, again, how the freaking heck are you supposed to hit DC 31 reliably with only 6 ranks in UMD? Explain. I'm sure it can be made to happen. Let's see...

Assume we can start with a Cha of 18 somehow (don't know the details of Ability Score generation) and putting another 2 in it by leveling (+5), investing the skill points (+6), Skill Focus (+3), Magical Aptitude (+2), Charisma booster of some sort (+3 maybe, depending on price ranges at level 10), Item Familiar (another +6)...that's +25, right?

How far would you consider "reliable"? I could probably swing more.

[edit again]

D'oh...synergy bonus from Decipher Script and Spellcraft would be another +4. I guess he'd need a decent Int too, for the Skill Points.

[MeeposFire]

So...a Wizard using Polymorph is fine, but a Fighter that works to have an answer to Polymorph is not (assuming being in the AM Field suppresses Polymorph)?

Is there nothing the Wizard can do in this situation to keep up, without breaking the rules of the contest?

Polymorph to beat sometinh up in melee is exactly what is being contested. A fighter using anti magic to win is proving that it takes magic to beat magic not warriors can beat magic trying to be a warrior. Are you forgetting what the question is? The OP is doing a duel to prove whether a wizard can out melee a fighter. A wizard with no magic is not a wizard at all so congrats you would prove a fighter can beat a commoner.

[jseah]

Wizard needs to outmelee a fighter in an AM field? Does disjoining the field first count? Or is getting rid of buffs not allowed anymore?

[Ifni]

Mm, if your friend is going with the UberCharger build, make sure he has a way to reroll a nat 1 on the attack, with Gloves of Fortunate Striking or something similar.

Tbh, I wouldn't do an UberCharger in this scenario, unless I could have a mount. Valorous weapons aren't on the allowed list unless I overlooked them, Pounce isn't available unless he can get a custom item of Lion's Charge or something similar - he's going to get one attack doing ordinary damage (albeit at a good attack bonus and with +BAB damage from Leap Attack) and then be screwed. I feel like I must be missing something: what is there in Core + Completes that makes the (non-druid, non-barbarian) UberCharger uber?

For the L20 version, I would lean toward a spiked-chain fighter with karmic strike and elusive target (maybe defensive throw as well) - Shapechange is still very dangerous, but if the wizard is restricted to MM1 and Completes, that makes it a lot less nasty, and if it's a straight-up melee fight against a single opponent then getting automatic attacks back every time they hit you is quite useful. Boots of Speed + Belt of Battle and/or Travel Devotion allow him to move up and full attack on round 1, with Greatreach Bracers to extend reach as necessary. A Ring of Spell-Battle would be very nasty here, if the fighter dumps cc ranks into Spellcraft and buys a cheap skill-boosting item: then he can steal the wizard's Time Stop, and it might even be in-flavor for a mage-slayer type :smalltongue: For the buffed scenarios, Greater Dispelling weapons are only CL 15, but eh, if you roll enough dispel checks something might get through. With L20 WBL you can get freedom of movement, flight and true seeing from items, and stick greater truedeath crystals on your weapons to deal with incorporeality; you'd usually worry about them all getting dispelled/disjoined, but this is meant to be a melee fight. Of course, I'm suggesting a lot of items with immediate or swift activations: lack of actions is likely to be a problem, but it's a lot better than just doing nothing with those actions while the wizard casts quickened spells.

For the L10 option, WBL is a lot more restrictive, but the wizzie's options are also rather less. On the wizard's side, I'm guessing Wraithstrike and perhaps the Bite of the Werebeast spells will feature prominently? I still think you probably lose if you're really totally unbuffed and he goes first, since he can stroll over and full attack you, most everything you can do is an immediate action which can't be taken flatfooted, and L10 is one level too early for Contingency. If the buffed case is fully buffed - as in, you get all the time you want to cast buff spells before the fight starts - then I'd expect the wizard to win pretty straightforwardly, SpC + the Completes have a LOT of buffs if you get unlimited in-combat time to cast them. For the fighter, a (Greater) Dispelling weapon might be a good call here, if it's affordable within WBL. The fighter might want to consider the Scout's Headband to see invisibility and the Eyes of Truth to pierce non-invisibility illusions, and of course also needs some way to fly and be protected against grapple - potions of fly, at the very least, for the former, and perhaps a vest of free movement for the latter (or a third eye freedom, if he's not getting a third eye clarity).

Belt of Battle is still a great investment for both characters, but the fighter probably can't afford a Ring of Spell-Battle anymore. Otoh, a Ring of Silent Spells (for swift-action personal Silence effect) + grapple might actually work to shut down a wizard at L10, whereas at L20 it would be a very foolish wizard who got caught by that. The wizard might just activate Heart of Water if they have it active, but they can only do that on their turn, and while it means they automatically win grapple checks to escape, they still need to spend an action on it - and once they get out they're still standing next to the fighter in a Silence field.

Are you allowing either character to have paid for spells cast with Permanency, out of their WBL?

Anyway, just some ideas.

[Togo]

As a fighter I'd certainly want to disarm the wizard of any spell component pouches, foci, and useful items they'd be carrying.

I'd probably go for a set of throwing spears of spell storing, with dispel magic in them, and hurling charge

[Curious]

As a fighter I'd certainly want to disarm the wizard of any spell component pouches, foci, and useful items they'd be carrying.

I'd probably go for a set of throwing spears of spell storing, with dispel magic in them, and hurling charge

If I were a Fighter, I would want to disarm the wizard. Full stop.

[Glimbur]

This issue is, as mentioned multiple times, that you are beginning half of them flatfooted, and thus can't make your AoO's, or pretty much defend yourself at all. In the great realm of the Complete Tomes and such, I would suspect there would lie a way to defend oneself when flat-footed, but I am not aware of such.

I believe Telonius already posted a decent ubercharger for the fighter to use.

Combat Reflexes actually lets you make AoO's while flat footed, in addition to giving you more AoO's. Which can be handy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If I were a Fighter, I would want to disarm the wizard. Full stop.

I'd use pierce magical protection and/or concealment. That takes out most of their defensive options, since time stop isn't on the table.

[kardar233]

I think he means to remove the Wizard's arms. Effective way to deny somatic components, no?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think he means to remove the Wizard's arms. Effective way to deny somatic components, no?

I know that. :smalltongue:

[Curious]

Stupid, stupid computer.

[Hiro Protagonest]

In My Kingdom, It Is Illegal For Wizards To Have Arms.

Did you try to write that in all caps?

[Curious]

Did you try to write that in all caps?

. . .
Stupid computer.
:smallredface:

[mootoall]

Meh, Sumerian Foot Casting solves that problem.

[Hiro Protagonest]

. . .
Stupid computer.
:smallredface:

I tried the same thing once, it's the site, not the computer.

[Curious]

I tried the same thing once, it's the site, not the computer.

Well, clearly, the site is telling me something; I need to stop spending so much time yelling at people on 4chan and civilize myself like the rest of the planet. :smalltongue:

[candycorn]

First, on antimagic field:

It must be classified as either a buff or a debuff first. Let's look at the intent and use of the spell.

It is a spell designed to deny the use of hostile spells against the caster - in this way, it's a buff.

It is a spell designed to suppress beneficial spells on nearby foes - in this way, it's a debuff, just as Invisibility Purge would be.

Using it with the intent to counter shapechanging tactics by denying use of spells to the opposing force clearly shows that the spell is being used in the latter fashion.

If debuffs are not allowed to the wizard (dispel magic, disjunction, etc), then AMF should not be allowed to the fighter, even through UMD. It is a double standard.

Even in this case, it's trivial for a wizard at high level to have access to PaO. Let's imagine for a moment, a wizard who PaO'd most powerful animals he encountered... T-rex's and the like. He shifted them into coins. A second casting rendered them permanently coins.

Let's say on a battleground, he scatters these coins while atop a phantom steed, and does nothing else with them. No dispels on them, no disjunctions, etc.

If an Antimagic field is brought in the area of the coins, that "debuff" creates a host of ready-made monsters that appear within 10 feet of the fighter, likely confused and angry.

This is a way to creatively use spells to counter the use of antimagic. You create effects that are perfectly safe, provided magic is allowed. When the enemy attempts to deny the use of magic, the consequences are that he must choose to dismiss his spell, or deal with the consequences of his own spell.

**************
Even at low levels, with Expeditious Retreat, Enlarge Person, Obscuring Mist, and Fist of Stone, a relatively low intelligence orc wizard (12 or so) with good strength (22) will prove a credible threat to the fighter in any situation where melee combat is required. That works as early as level 1, and provides up to a +9 to hit for 1d6+15 damage. Will the wizard win every time? Not always. A bow and arrow fighter will have a good chance of winning when buffs are discounted.

But often as not, in a straight duel, the wizard will have a very good chance at level 1.

[faceroll]

Meh, Sumerian Foot Casting solves that problem.

It's in a Dragon magazine.

[Adamantrue]

As a fighter I'd certainly want to disarm the wizard of any spell component pouches, foci, and useful items they'd be carrying.

I'd probably go for a set of throwing spears of spell storing, with dispel magic in them, and hurling charge Wasn't this purely a melee thing?

Wouldn't Sundering work just as well here, perhaps even better? Mind you, Eschew Materials limits how effective this could be, but that would be true with the Disarm too.

In theory, a Charge ending with a Grapple could prove effective too, though there are an awful lot of ways it could go wrong. I wouldn't bank on it, but it could be something to be mindful of.

With the UMD...if Polymorph is fair game, maybe he could pick it up as well in scroll form?

[Flickerdart]

With the UMD...if Polymorph is fair game, maybe he could pick it up as well in scroll form?
Scrolls are difficult to UMD, so he would have as low a CL for it as possible for the better chance (a CL10 scroll is a DC30 check, with 6 CC ranks and dubious Charisma)...which means the Wizard has better forms available. It is in the Fighter's best interest to avoid legitimizing the use of as many spells as possible, because the Wizard can simply do them better.

[Ursus the Grim]

Combat Reflexes actually lets you make AoO's while flat footed, in addition to giving you more AoO's. Which can be handy.

I nearly never pick up Combat Reflexes, but that would be incredibly useful and completely negate the advantage the Fighter has on the one in which he gets to start.

A melee lockdown build also has the advantage of being completely fine in an AMF, rendering the stretches the fighter may have gone through to get it to be hilariously pointless. Speaking of which. . . .



Assume we can start with a Cha of 18 somehow (don't know the details of Ability Score generation) and putting another 2 in it by leveling (+5), investing the skill points (+6), Skill Focus (+3), Magical Aptitude (+2), Charisma booster of some sort (+3 maybe, depending on price ranges at level 10), Item Familiar (another +6)...that's +25, right?
[edit again]

D'oh...synergy bonus from Decipher Script and Spellcraft would be another +4. I guess he'd need a decent Int too, for the Skill Points.

That's a big assumption. I don't think Standard Point Buy gives you much room for an 18 right off the bat. Sure, we could go high-powered, but as you said, we don't know the specifics. Regardless that's an 18 in Charisma, not an 18 in a relevant physical stat, that you just sacrificed, plus the two ability boosts burned into it.

Fighters have 2+ skill points per level. You're using half of them at this point, not accounting for high intelligence or Human.

You're using three feats. In addition, I don't see Unearthed Arcana on the acceptable sourcebook list.

You're using your WBL to buy a scroll and charisma boosters.

You're also putting ranks into two more skills that don't work well for Fighters.

Basically, the constraint of your build is this.
Primary ability is Charisma, and needs to be at least 16, or you need to emulate the 16, too.
Needs Intelligence of at least 12 or 10 and Human. (Otherwise, can't afford all the skills listed)

I think you're grossly underestimating costs here. A +6 Cloak of Charisma (for that +3 bonus to UMD) costs 36000 gp. A Scroll of Antimagic Field, cast by an 11th level Wizard, costs 1650. Actually, the DMG recommends it costs 8250 because this is a one-shot adventure. You're using at least 37650 of 49000 gp, leaving you with about 24% of the WBL the Wizard is bringing to the fight. And because the Wizard has pretty much been stripped of any spells of use (in order to make this a fair melee fight :smallannoyed:), a melee wizard is going to have all that WBL available.

Then there's the issue of the Item Familiar itself. In addition to being from UA, there's the issue of what happens when it enters the AMF. Its a magical item and a familiar, and I'd be surprised if there are no repercussions for it being in an AMF. Aside from you losing the +6 to Charisma after activating the AMF that is.

Given all of that, I think you'd lose the Item Familiar (unauthorized sourcebook), but get the synergy for a net total of +23. You still have, roughly, a 25% chance of failing utterly. Let's assume it works though.

So the fighter is no longer optimized for combat, spends a standard action to activate the scroll. Congratulations, there is a 10 ft AMF surrounding the Fighter. The Wizard is 50 feet away from it. Fighter can't close to attack, and can't even close the distance in one turn. Wizard is safely out of the radius of the AMF and can now do pretty much whatever. When they enter melee, you have a gimped Fighter against a melee-built Wizard. Further more, a decent melee lockdown build could actually keep the Fighter from getting close enough for the AMF to even affect the Wizard.

I mean, you can do it. It just wouldn't be all that effective.

[NNescio]

Wasn't this purely a melee thing?

Wouldn't Sundering work just as well here, perhaps even better? Mind you, Eschew Materials limits how effective this could be, but that would be true with the Disarm too.

In theory, a Charge ending with a Grapple could prove effective too, though there are an awful lot of ways it could go wrong. I wouldn't bank on it, but it could be something to be mindful of.

With the UMD...if Polymorph is fair game, maybe he could pick it up as well in scroll form?

If you can charge the wizard, it'll be better to just ubercharge him instead of trying to fiddle around with grappling.

[dextercorvia]

So, if we agree that the only way that the Fighter wins is to one shot him before the Wizard buffs, and the Wizard takes Combat Reflexes and Stand Still, all we have to do is give the Wizard sufficient reach to keep the fighter out of melee range, and enough damage to beat the Fighter's Reflex save.

Can we do that?

[NNescio]

Enlarge Person/Polymorph with a Sizing weapon? Or a Shrink Item'ed mundane weapon, if AMF is in play for some weird reason?

[Veyr]

Can Arcane Strike be used on an AoO? It might help. Also, those boots that make you always set against a charge would be awesome; it'll give you a second attack. Evasive Reflexes for a 5' step when he charges you? Depending on the ruling, that may nix any follow-up attacks from Pounce (though I'm not sure a Fighter 20 can get Pounce...).

And every one of those suggestions is non-Core; forgot about that.

[dextercorvia]

Enlarge Person/Polymorph with a Sizing weapon? Or a Shrink Item'ed mundane weapon, if AMF is in play for some weird reason?

We only have to worry about the pre-buff combat.


Can Arcane Strike be used on an AoO? It might help. Also, those boots that make you always set against a charge would be awesome; it'll give you a second attack. Evasive Reflexes for a 5' step when he charges you? Depending on the ruling, that may nix any follow-up attacks from Pounce (though I'm not sure a Fighter 20 can get Pounce...).

And every one of those suggestions is non-Core; forgot about that.

Completes are on the table, but Arcane Strike has to be activated on you turn. Stand Still only works on the AoO generated by leaving a square you threaten.

[Veyr]

Yeah, and setting against a charge seems to be a Readied Action, anyway. Not sure how those boots (which are in MIC) work, though...

[dextercorvia]

Is there a +1LA large template or race in our sources? I'm having trouble getting decent reach without spells.