What is this things Challenge Rating?

[Kansaschaser]

Our DM, who happens to be fairly new to the DM role, has placed us against a creature that we can't seem to beat. I'll give you a rundown of what we know.

1. It starts with the base stats of an Iron Golem.
2. From there, we know it's an awakened, so it has a pretty high intelligence, wisdom, and/or charisma.
3. We know it has a high intelligence, wisdom, or charisma because it has at least 12 levels of some psionic class.
4. We know this because it's used Temporal Acceleration several times during the fight.
5. It still has all it's immunities, plus it's wearing magical items that gives it more immunities, and it has an artifcat weapon (brilliant energy hammer).
6. We made knowledge checks and we know iron golems get slowed by any electricity effect, so we fired electricity spells at it to slow it down. It absorbed the electricity somehow and now it's faster than before.
7. It can hit our fighter's AC. Our fighter is a super tough dwarf with an AC of 43. He was built to be almost un-touchable. The boss seems to be able to hit him and grapple him with ease.
8. We can't hit the boss, even with attack rolls in the 40's. When we landed a hit, we get hit with 6D6 points of sonic and/or cold damage. We've only hit a few times in the first 7 rounds of combat.
9. It has illithid tendrils comming out of it's mouth and it's about to suck the brain out of our high armor class fighter.


So, in sumation.

Immune to all spells that allow spell resistance.
Immune to all energy types.
High mental scores.
Psionic abilities of at least 6th level.
Oh, and he has wings so he can fly. (forgot to mention that)
Magic items out the whazoo.
Artifact weapon (brilliant energy).
AC in the 50's.
Attack bonus in the 50's.

So who can give me a rough estimate of this things challenge rating? :smallfrown:

[Diarmuid]

As it's something obviously created by your DM, there's no way to know what it's CR is/should be. You dont know how many of those abilities are from class levels, spell-like abilities, SU abilities, or items so it is nigh impossible to determine.

As for hitting your dwarf friend, if he's starting grapples all he has to do it make a Touch attack. If he has Improved Grapple, or Improved Grab (or whatever the feat is) this wont provoke an AoO.

Sounds like you need to get that dwarf out of there and then run for your lives.

Once you're safe, summon a rust monster and be done with it.

[ericgrau]

Do you think your party even has a chance? Then his CR is party level + 4. If your party might barely have a chance in a couple levels, it's party level + 6. Etc.

Its mentioned stats seem typical for something around CR 30 but you haven't said what it's damage and so on is. And at level 30 your fighter's AC would be very low and 6d6 would be no big deal, so ya I'm guessing it's some funky DM creation. Then I can't say what CR it is because it might be bad at other things you didn't mention.

[The Rabbler]

I'd just like to point out that although it probably does have a high attack bonus, it has a brilliant energy hammer, so all attacks target touch AC.

As far as CR, who cares? it's wildly powerful and your DM had to know that before throwing it at you. He probably expects it to kill you or you to be rescued at the last second or something along those lines. I doubt he expects you to have any shot at killing it, at least.

if you actually want help defeating it, we'll need a list of your party and available resources.

[Kansaschaser]

As it's something obviously created by your DM, there's no way to know what it's CR is/should be. You dont know how many of those abilities are from class levels, spell-like abilities, SU abilities, or items so it is nigh impossible to determine.

As for hitting your dwarf friend, if he's starting grapples all he has to do it make a Touch attack. If he has Improved Grapple, or Improved Grab (or whatever the feat is) this wont provoke an AoO.

Sounds like you need to get that dwarf out of there and then run for your lives.

Once you're safe, summon a rust monster and be done with it.

The dwarfs touch AC is the same as his normal AC. They are both 43. I watched the DM roll the attack and he rolled a 4 on the D20. He said, "Yep, I think a 58 hits your AC."


Do you think your party even has a chance? Then his CR is party level + 4. If your party might barely have a chance in a couple levels, it's party level + 6. Etc.

Its mentioned stats seem typical for something around CR 30 but you haven't said what it's damage and so on is. And at level 30 your fighter's AC would be very low and 6d6 would be no big deal, so ya I'm guessing it's some funky DM creation. Then I can't say what CR it is because it might be bad at other things you didn't mention.

I didn't want to tell you guys what level we were because I wanted an opinion on what you thought the monster's CR was. We are all level 11 and 12.

[ericgrau]

Well iron golem with 12 class levels is minimum of CR 19, if not 25+. But then I wonder why it didn't splat the party in an instant unless the DM made it all defensive. That's why I hesitated before knowing its damage.

[Kansaschaser]

Well iron golem with 12 class levels is minimum of CR 19, if not 25+. But then I wonder why it didn't splat the party in an instant unless the DM made it all defensive. That's why I hesitated before knowing its damage.

The DM keeps saying that there is a way to defeat it, but we just haven't thought of it yet.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Ah, we've been looking at this all wrong. The monster's CR is "Guess what the DM is thinking, or die!"

[Kansaschaser]

Do you think your party even has a chance? Then his CR is party level + 4. If your party might barely have a chance in a couple levels, it's party level + 6. Etc.

Its mentioned stats seem typical for something around CR 30 but you haven't said what it's damage and so on is. And at level 30 your fighter's AC would be very low and 6d6 would be no big deal, so ya I'm guessing it's some funky DM creation. Then I can't say what CR it is because it might be bad at other things you didn't mention.

It's done several hundred points of damage to the fighter. The only reason he didn't die was because our healer was doing a Heal spell once per round practically. The 6D6 damage is what we take if we hit the boss.

[ericgrau]

The DM keeps saying that there is a way to defeat it, but we just haven't thought of it yet.
Ah, so it's a lock and key challenge. Get out while you still can.

[The Rabbler]

I'm sure there's something you guys can do. Look through everyone's character sheets and see if there's a way to bypass it without fighting. Something like forcecage + dimensional lock + running?

[ericgrau]

Nononono that's the whole point. If they don't defeat it the exact way the DM is thinking he'll make up a reason why it still doesn't work. It's faster and easier to flee or sit through it until the DM throws up his arms and says "It's obviously X!" (or "It's Y! Aren't I so clever?") or etc. You should be focusing on minimizing the damage until that point.

[Kansaschaser]

I'm sure there's something you guys can do. Look through everyone's character sheets and see if there's a way to bypass it without fighting. Something like forcecage + dimensional lock + running?

1. There is already a dimensional lock (around the entire planet).
2. We are too low for a Forcecage spell (11th and 12th level).
3. We would have already ran if we could take our fighter with us, but he's grappled and has been for several rounds. Oh, and his brain is going to be sucked out soon.


Nononono that's the whole point. If they don't defeat it the exact way the DM is thinking he'll make up a reason why it still doesn't work. It's faster and easier to flee or sit through it until the DM throws up his arms and says "It's obviously X!" (or "It's Y! Aren't I so clever?") or etc. You should be focusing on minimizing the damage until that point.

Yes, we were trying to minimize the damage as much as possible. Now we are without a healer though. The boss took away our spellcasters's casting ability. It put some sort of parasite in the casters head. This parasite could use the healers spells to cast spells. It choose to use Tenser's Transformation. Now our healer is a fighter without any spellcasting ability for the next 12 rounds.

[ericgrau]

<cough> So the healer was the only thing keep the fighter alive and now he can't heal? You sure the golem didn't just grow a new ability? If you leave the fighter you'll only lose 1 party member, sounds reasonable. OTOH the DM might be leaving the cleric alive so you guys can still tell the DM the number he's thinking of in his head (so to speak). If you flee you could make the DM mad and some sort of ad hoc entanglement may pop out of the ground... or maybe you should sit down and talk to the DM.

[The Rabbler]

how about you tell us what your party is composed of instead of us guessing about things that might work if you have the right class for it.

[Amnestic]

3. We would have already ran if we could take our fighter with us, but he's grappled and has been for several rounds. Oh, and his brain is going to be sucked out soon.

Cut your losses, leave him and run. Sucks, but he's not doing much without a brain anyway.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Cut your losses, leave him and run. Sucks, but he's not doing much without a brain anyway.Funny, I was going to say the same thing about the DM.

[BlueInc]

Pretty sure you're up against an Illithid Savant

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030608a

It's originally from Savage Species, IIRC.

Doesn't help much in fighting it, but hey; the more you know.

[Amnestic]

Funny, I was going to say the same thing about the DM.

Hah! I can't argue with that.

[JackRackham]

Is there anything in the battle terrain that could be of use? At level 12, this doesn't seem like the type of monster he expects your class abilities to defeat, so maybe there's something around you could improvise to your advantage?

[erikun]

Does it matter what the technical CR is for the thing? Unless you are magically going to grow bonuses if it has an unusually high CR, it won't matter if it is CR 1 or CR 100. It's still just as dangerous.

Cast Freedom of Movement on the fighter so that he can escape from grapple without a roll, then get out of there. If you don't have Freedom of Movement in some form or another, you can try something that would help with grapple (Enlarge Person, perhaps) or perhaps turn him into something without a brain. You don't really have many other choices.

Beyond that, hold it off and run. Brilliant Energy weapons can't affect non-living things, so anything from a Wall of Stone to a simple summoned skeleton will hold it off. I'm not sure if it actually has levels in a psionic class or if it just has a few psionic abilities, so your best bet is to get out of there and regroup. Sticking around to fight will become very unpleasant if you find out is can manifest Disintegrate repeatedly.

[Andorax]

As your fighter's final act, tell him to chop off a finger (his, not the uber-golem's) and toss it to you.

If you survive escaping, go adventure elsewhere until your cleric gains a level to 13th, and Resurrect him from the finger.

No, it's not an optimal strategy...that's half the point. You're making it clear that you're throwing your collective hands up in the air and conceding that your DM has just *won* at D&D.

[BlueInc]

Thinking about this more from a DM's point of view...

Do you have to kill this golem? If it's sentient, is there a way you can reason with it, bribe it, or ally with it?


What is the purpose of the battle? Is there a way you can accomplish your mission without fighting it to the death? Can you walk past it, take another path to get around it, steal from it, etc.?

Do you have any items or bits of knowledge from previous experiences from the campaign that might be useful? ("Yup, that ol' wizard up in the castle over yonder went crazy and turned hisself into a golem 'bout the time his wife up an' died. I suppose if someone could find her favorite mirror that he lost and never forgave himself for losing, he might help them.")

Pray to Pun-Pun?

[Kansaschaser]

Thinking about this more from a DM's point of view...

Do you have to kill this golem? If it's sentient, is there a way you can reason with it, bribe it, or ally with it?


What is the purpose of the battle? Is there a way you can accomplish your mission without fighting it to the death? Can you walk past it, take another path to get around it, steal from it, etc.?

Do you have any items or bits of knowledge from previous experiences from the campaign that might be useful? ("Yup, that ol' wizard up in the castle over yonder went crazy and turned hisself into a golem 'bout the time his wife up an' died. I suppose if someone could find her favorite mirror that he lost and never forgave himself for losing, he might help them.")

Pray to Pun-Pun?

Set Up
There are cages located all around the room with hostages we are trying to rescue. If we leave, I'm pretty sure the golem will kill them. All around the room are "computers". We are on another planet that had technology and the golems took over and killed almost every sentient creature. We are trying to save the few that are left.

There are four invisible objects in each corner of the room. We started destroying them in hopes that it would reduce the monsters abilities. Another one of our party members was captured in an earlier game and he's on a table and hooked up to wires and tubes.

We are on catwalks 100 feet above a "disintigration" field. It's literally a "Wall of Disintigration" at the bottom. If we fall, we die. If the hostages fall, they die. If the golem falls, well he can't fall. Even if we were to some how push him into the field, he would be immune to it since it allows spell resistance. The golem has wings and can fly.

Characters (All Gestalt)
1. Level 11 Wizard/Bard (Party buffer and utility caster).
2. Level 12 Favored Soul/Warmage (Healer and Blaster).
3. Level 12 Fighter/Warblade/Psychic Warrior (Tank and Meat Shield).
4. Level 12 Warblade/Rogue/Tigerclaw Master (Striker).
5. Level 12 Soulknife/Barbarian/Frenzied Bezerker (Striker). NPC
6. Level 12 Succubus/Wilder/Enchanter (Minor Healing, Utility, Charmer). NPC

Yes, the golem is sentient. We have tried to reason with it. No success.

[BlueInc]

Has the DM explicitly stated that the "disintegration field" is magical/allows SR to apply? If it's a "technologically based disintegration field," the DM might have decided SR doesn't apply.

Alternatively, what about throwing the invisible objects into the field?

Can you talk with any of the prisoners to see if any of them know its weaknesses or have seen it afraid of anything?

[MeeposFire]

It is a little late but you could have tried to distract the golem while the party tries to rescue the hostages and then bugs out once the hostages are freed. No reason to kill it yet just get what you need and run. Other than that push the golem into the disintegrate field hopefully it will work but if it doesn't it could buy you a round.

[erikun]

Have someone (or several someones) run to the other side of the disintegrate field, and try to grab the golem's attention so that it runs through it. That, or if it is on a catwalk, destroy the catwalk it is standing on.

It seems kind of stupid that something with wings would just fall to the ground, but that is as much of an "obvious solution" as I can think of. (Be sure to point out how stupid and unobvious this "obvious" solution is if it works, just so the DM recognizes the inconsistency there.)

[Kansaschaser]

Have someone (or several someones) run to the other side of the disintegrate field, and try to grab the golem's attention so that it runs through it. That, or if it is on a catwalk, destroy the catwalk it is standing on.

It seems kind of stupid that something with wings would just fall to the ground, but that is as much of an "obvious solution" as I can think of. (Be sure to point out how stupid and unobvious this "obvious" solution is if it works, just so the DM recognizes the inconsistency there.)

The golem can fly. It has wings. Even if we destroy the catwalk, only our party will die except for the few of us that can fly.

Also, we all had Greater Invisibility on at the beginning of the fight and the golem seems to be able to see through invisibility.

[ericgrau]

Glitterdust the invisible objects to see them or if you don't have that then pour something over them like oil, water or potion liquid if you have to.

[Kansaschaser]

Glitterdust the objects to see them or if you don't have that then pour something over them like oil, water or potion liquid if you have to.

We've got one of them destroyed so far. They seem to have over 100 hit points. We are working on the other three. I hope that helps. I won't know until we play again, and that's 6 days from now.

What I seem to be getting from people here is that the boss/monster/golem thing is about a challenge rating of 20-30, which is well above what we are supposed to be able to handle.

I need to have a heart to heart with the DM and let him know that we are way over our heads in this fight. Even though he thinks we should be able to handle it.

[sonofzeal]

We've got one of them destroyed so far. They seem to have over 100 hit points. We are working on the other three. I hope that helps. I won't know until we play again, and that's 6 days from now.

What I seem to be getting from people here is that the boss/monster/golem thing is about a challenge rating of 20-30, which is well above what we are supposed to be able to handle.

I need to have a heart to heart with the DM and let him know that we are way over our heads in this fight. Even though he thinks we should be able to handle it.
Eh, it's a puzzle fight. Those aren't fun, but simply telling the DM that the monster is ridiculous won't help. He knows it, and you're not supposed to beat the guy through combat most likely, so it doesn't matter to him how hard it is for you to kill that way.

If PCs die, or players aren't having fun, THEN have a heart to heart and make THOSE the focus of the talk, not the thing's ridiculous stats.

[erikun]

Well, it could be that you're supposed to feel around the machines and pull a level, rather than just smashing them apart. Also, perhaps the think takes a round to open up its wings, so that dropping it into the disintegratifield would actually work?

It actually doesn't sound like this thing is unbeatable as much as it is not beatable by dealing damage through melee combat. Think of a few options that don't involve trying to stick a sword into something. That clearly isn't working, and you don't have much to lose at this point.

[ericgrau]

Yeah if there's a big drape hiding something and an unsolvable DM fiat challenge you obviously pull down the drape and look behind it. Try to make the invisible things visible.

The challenge is more about figuring out what the DM is thinking than anything, if you aren't gonna fight the scenario then try to find the bait and take the bait. Whatever he lays in front of you treat it as the most interesting thing in the world to be poked and prodded at rather than coming up with your own solution, even if it's technically better.

[ffone]

Two NPCs eh? One of whom sounds vaguely alpha-male tropey (Frenzied Berserker) and sexy vixen tropey (the succubus)? Reminds me of the scene from Conan where Ahnuld has to romp with the witch for a Plot Clue (which she screams out orgasmically, no less), but I digress.

The DM is probably DMPCing his self-insertion and fantasy partner chars. I'd guess the "Think of what the DM is thinking or die" key is one of these two chars' abilities, so have your PCs just ask them what to do, or make guesses from what you know about their abilities. Or at least, try to position your chars so the golem can't kill them without killing the NPCs first.

[Kansaschaser]

Well, it could be that you're supposed to feel around the machines and pull a level, rather than just smashing them apart. Also, perhaps the think takes a round to open up its wings, so that dropping it into the disintegratifield would actually work?

It actually doesn't sound like this thing is unbeatable as much as it is not beatable by dealing damage through melee combat. Think of a few options that don't involve trying to stick a sword into something. That clearly isn't working, and you don't have much to lose at this point.


Yeah if there's a big drape hiding something and an unsolvable DM fiat challenge you obviously pull down the drape and look behind it. Try to make the invisible things visible.

The challenge is more about figuring out what the DM is thinking than anything, if you aren't gonna fight the scenario then try to find the bait and take the bait. Whatever he lays in front of you treat it as the most interesting thing in the world to be poked and prodded at rather than coming up with your own solution, even if it's technically better.


Two NPCs eh? One of whom sounds vaguely alpha-male tropey (Frenzied Berserker) and sexy vixen tropey (the succubus)? Reminds me of the scene from Conan where Ahnuld has to romp with the witch for a Plot Clue (which she screams out orgasmically, no less), but I digress.

The DM is probably DMPCing his self-insertion and fantasy partner chars. I'd guess the "Think of what the DM is thinking or die" key is one of these two chars' abilities, so have your PCs just ask them what to do, or make guesses from what you know about their abilities. Or at least, try to position your chars so the golem can't kill them without killing the NPCs first.

I have a feeling he expects us to try to dispell some of the bosses buffs. Problem is, we already tried Dispel Magic and it failed to dispell anything. Other than that, I could cast Heroics and give the fighter a fighter bonus feat called "Pierce Magical Protection". He might be able to hit then, and it would dispell any buffs to the bosses AC.

Arn't DM's supposed to give us challenges that any group combination can handle? What if we had all played fighters, warblades, rogues, and crusaders? If he expects one specific class to use one specific ability that isn't available to any other class, how could we defeat it if we didn't have that specific class with us?:smallconfused:

[BlueInc]

Arn't DM's supposed to give us challenges that any group combination can handle? What if we had all played fighters, warblades, rogues, and crusaders?

That's up to the DM's personal style.

Myself, I try to include a mix of things that any general party could do and thing specifically tailored to my group, particularly if someone is under-performing or feel they're not integrated into the group.

What's the point in having classes with different abilities if they can't use those abilities to shine at different times?

[Lost Schizo]

As a quick question you said this thing can fly? Now have you seen it fly or are you only assuming it can fly because it has wings? I know it sounds silly but it could just be a distraction.

It may also be a "poor" flyer and would actually fall into the disentegrate field. As a note I do believe that disentigrate does work on constructs even though they are immune to SR correct me if I am wrong. It works the same as blasting innanimate objects like walls and doors I belive.

The next question is how many arms does it have? If it is already grappling the fighter is it completly tied with him or is it still attacking people? because if it is already grappling and is focused on the fighter have somebody take their chain shirt or some other solid object and rap around the creatures head. It cant see and it cant devour. Then for good measure use an immovable rod to keep it in place.

You could also start grabbing the hostages and forfeit the tank. Which might be what the DM wants to see if you will do.

Have you found any strange items in the world that just don't seem to make sense. Heck for that matter just start pulling random things out of bags and see if the monster reacts.

And is the DM controlling the NPC's? If so treat them as fodder. Ask them anything they may know and be sure to put them in harms way. And when did you pick up said NPC's? the could also be the cause of this monstrosity so killing them might be the answer as well.

Those are some of the options I came up with after reading this thread.

Your friendly angry Lost Schizo

[Kansaschaser]

As a quick question you said this thing can fly? Now have you seen it fly or are you only assuming it can fly because it has wings? I know it sounds silly but it could just be a distraction.

It may also be a "poor" flyer and would actually fall into the disentegrate field. As a note I do believe that disentigrate does work on constructs even though they are immune to SR correct me if I am wrong. It works the same as blasting innanimate objects like walls and doors I belive.

The next question is how many arms does it have? If it is already grappling the fighter is it completly tied with him or is it still attacking people? because if it is already grappling and is focused on the fighter have somebody take their chain shirt or some other solid object and rap around the creatures head. It cant see and it cant devour. Then for good measure use an immovable rod to keep it in place.

You could also start grabbing the hostages and forfeit the tank. Which might be what the DM wants to see if you will do.

Have you found any strange items in the world that just don't seem to make sense. Heck for that matter just start pulling random things out of bags and see if the monster reacts.

And is the DM controlling the NPC's? If so treat them as fodder. Ask them anything they may know and be sure to put them in harms way. And when did you pick up said NPC's? the could also be the cause of this monstrosity so killing them might be the answer as well.

Those are some of the options I came up with after reading this thread.

Your friendly angry Lost Schizo

Yes, it can fly with Perfect maneuverability. In a previous encounter, we witnessed him/her/it hovering.

It has two arms. We thought that would make it easier to hit since you loose your Dex bonus to attacks from outside the grapple. However, the DM said the boss didn't loose anything because he's using Illithid tentacles to grapple the fighter. So even though the boss is grappling, he's been able to cast psionics, do slam attacks, and defend against outside attacks.

The cages are suspended 100 feet above the disintigration fields too. We haven't seen a way to open these cages. The DM is using futuristic technology, so our characters wouldn't recognize a "key pad" or "magnetic locking mechanism". We are pretty sure if we fiddle with the cages that they will fall into the field. There are a total of 4 cages.

Asking the DMNPC's was going to be my next step. The Succubus has some psionic abilities. I was going to see if she could somehow dispell some of the bosses abilities.

[Amphetryon]

Is this a game with Magic/Psionic Transparency, or is it a "Psionics are Different" campaign? Dispel Magic might not work in the latter environment.



Arn't DM's supposed to give us challenges that any group combination can handle? What if we had all played fighters, warblades, rogues, and crusaders? If he expects one specific class to use one specific ability that isn't available to any other class, how could we defeat it if we didn't have that specific class with us?Some groups do play that way, most assuredly. Other DMs - particularly (in my experience) those with a more "old-school" philosophy of D&D - find it more consistent to have places on the map that are marked "Here There Be Dragons," so to speak, such that everything the characters stumble upon doesn't just so happen to be exactly in their Challenge Rating.

[PollyOliver]

The DM probably has a magical plot device answer to this. Did you get any effect when you attacked the invisible things in the corners? Have you tried interacting with them besides attacking them (maybe they do something?). Has anyone tried using one of the computers? Maybe there's, bizarre as it would be, a shut-down mechanism?

Because basically, you probably need to either have that heart-to-heart with the DM or guess what exactly they're thinking.

[Kansaschaser]

The DM probably has a magical plot device answer to this. Did you get any effect when you attacked the invisible things in the corners? Have you tried interacting with them besides attacking them (maybe they do something?). Has anyone tried using one of the computers? Maybe there's, bizarre as it would be, a shut-down mechanism?

Because basically, you probably need to either have that heart-to-heart with the DM or guess what exactly they're thinking.


We attacked and destroyed one "invisible object" in one corner so far. There are three more to go. We haven't seen or felt any changes after we destroyed the first one. Since this is a world with technology, we might have just destroyed the invisible cleaning bot or the invisible drink hold for all we know.

No one has tried to use the computers. All the DM told us is that we see blinking lights. Most of us think they are just glowing gems or something. I haven't had time to do a Dectect Magic, otherwise I would have.


Is this a game with Magic/Psionic Transparency, or is it a "Psionics are Different" campaign? Dispel Magic might not work in the latter environment.

Some groups do play that way, most assuredly. Other DMs - particularly (in my experience) those with a more "old-school" philosophy of D&D - find it more consistent to have places on the map that are marked "Here There Be Dragons," so to speak, such that everything the characters stumble upon doesn't just so happen to be exactly in their Challenge Rating.

The problem is, I don't think this is anywhere near an appropriate challenge rating. Most people seem to think this boss is about a 20-30 challenge rating. For a group of level 11 and 12 characters, that's a bit much. I think the DM has overestimated the power of Gestalt. None of us have super optimized characters. Most of us played for style.

[Anxe]

Have you tried Turning it? Your DM might have made that the way to defeat this unholy horror.

[Starbuck_II]

Our DM, who happens to be fairly new to the DM role, has placed us against a creature that we can't seem to beat. I'll give you a rundown of what we know.

So, in sumation.

Immune to all spells that allow spell resistance.
Immune to all energy types.
High mental scores.
Psionic abilities of at least 6th level.
Oh, and he has wings so he can fly. (forgot to mention that)
Magic items out the whazoo.
Artifact weapon (brilliant energy).
AC in the 50's.
Attack bonus in the 50's.

So who can give me a rough estimate of this things challenge rating? :smallfrown:

CR 27 minimum. I worked out it gained around CR 13 base + 14 =27.
Gear (ring of electric protection/hammer/AC bonuses) is +3 CR. Flight (clumsy or average)+1 (+1 more if perfect)=+2.
Spells/Psionic power of 6th is +6 CR.
1/2 Illithid Template +3
But you can't add this template to constructs... so DM cheated or goofed.

It has Gear of not its base NPC status, but its end CR so that was why the CR adjustment is +3 not 1 (just using NPC CR is CR +1, PC is Gear is +2, and more than that is +3).


My suggestion: Lesser Planar ally/Planar Binding: 1/2 Celestial Rust Monster.

Promise to split the metal treasure with it.

[Kansaschaser]

Have you tried Turning it? Your DM might have made that the way to defeat this unholy horror.

No one in our party has any ability to turn undead.


CR 27 minimum. I worked out it gained around CR 13 base + 14 =27.
Gear (ring of electric protection/hammer/AC bonuses) is +3 CR. Flight (clumsy or average)+1 (+1 more if perfect)=+2.
Spells/Psionic power of 6th is +6 CR.
1/2 Illithid Template +3
But you can't add this template to constructs... so DM cheated or goofed.

It has Gear of not its base NPC status, but its end CR so that was why the CR adjustment is +3 not 1 (just using NPC CR is CR +1, PC is Gear is +2, and more than that is +3).


My suggestion: Lesser Planar ally/Planar Binding: 1/2 Celestial Rust Monster.

Promise to split the metal treasure with it.

Thanks for the suggestion on the CR. I'll let the DM know that.

As for summoning, we can't do that either. Teleportaion, Gating, and Conjuration(Calling) don't work. We used a Gate Key that we found the previous game session. The Golem saw us use it to escape a trap. Less than two hours after we used the Gate Key, we all noticed a "static electricity" type of effect in the air. This "static electricity" seems to cover the entier planet and it blocks all forms of teleportation, gating, and conjuration(calling). So the golem must have some technology that prevents any kind of teleportation effects. Also, we have no one that can cast Planar Binding or Planar Ally. Our healer is a Favored Soul with a small spell list.

[PollyOliver]

No one in our party has any ability to turn undead.



Thanks for the suggestion on the CR. I'll let the DM know that.

As for summoning, we can't do that either. Teleportaion, Gating, and Conjuration(Calling) don't work. We used a Gate Key that we found the previous game session. The Golem saw us use it to escape a trap. Less than two hours after we used the Gate Key, we all noticed a "static electricity" type of effect in the air. This "static electricity" seems to cover the entier planet and it blocks all forms of teleportation, gating, and conjuration(calling). So the golem must have some technology that prevents any kind of teleportation effects. Also, we have no one that can cast Planar Binding or Planar Ally. Our healer is a Favored Soul with a small spell list.

Okay, given this on top of everything else you've said, I'm pretty sure the golem just has the Magical-Plot-Swiss-Army-Knife of You-Will-Solve-this-Encounter-My-Way-or-not-at-All. Which sucks. You should probably just talk to your DM.

[Kantolin]

Personally?

I do agree with the rest of the group - this is some kind of a bizzaro-solve. But unless this is wrecking everyone's fun (Which it sounds like it might be, given you're asking for help about it!), I'd just keep trying different things. Make it look like you're attempting to think outside of the box, when you're really just trying things at random in the hopes that this works.

Usually, that will get the DM to throw you a bone.

[Kansaschaser]

Okay, given this on top of everything else you've said, I'm pretty sure the golem just has the Magical-Plot-Swiss-Army-Knife of You-Will-Solve-this-Encounter-My-Way-or-not-at-All. Which sucks. You should probably just talk to your DM.

It's unfortunate it's come to this. The end of the game session broke down into two players and the DM yelling at each other over who's fault it was that we were loosing.

The DM kept saying that there is a way to defeat this thing and that we just haven't thought of it yet. That's the only reason we didn't run after the first two rounds.

One player has left the game permanently after that last session. The rest of us are going to have a heart to heart with the DM and let him know that we think it was too difficult of a fight.

At a CR 27, even if we defeat him, we wouldn't get any experience. Once you go 8 points above or below your intented challenge rating, you don't get any experience.

[Kantolin]

It's unfortunate it's come to this. The end of the game session broke down into two players and the DM yelling at each other over who's fault it was that we were loosing.

...

One player has left the game permanently after that last session. The rest of us are going to have a heart to heart with the DM and let him know that we think it was too difficult of a fight.

Ugh, that sucks that that happened. It's never pleasant when a game night concludes with angry shouting, especially if people storm out.

Hopefully things clear up after next time. It sounds like your DM is the type who gets increasingly upset when the party isn't losing, so this may have gotten it out of his system.

[PollyOliver]

It's unfortunate it's come to this. The end of the game session broke down into two players and the DM yelling at each other over who's fault it was that we were loosing.

The DM kept saying that there is a way to defeat this thing and that we just haven't thought of it yet. That's the only reason we didn't run after the first two rounds.

One player has left the game permanently after that last session. The rest of us are going to have a heart to heart with the DM and let him know that we think it was too difficult of a fight.

At a CR 27, even if we defeat him, we wouldn't get any experience. Once you go 8 points above or below your intented challenge rating, you don't get any experience.

You might still get XP, as there are I believe guidelines for how to CR "easy if handled right, lethal otherwise" encounters (my least favorite kind, except for "certain tpk") in the DMG. Not sure, as I use free-form experience when I DM.

But yeah, "there's a way to defeat it, guess what I'm thinking" only works if you
1) Give plenty of hints as to what you are thinking, and
2) Allow outside-the-box solutions you didn't think of to work, even if they weren't the super-cool ending you intended.

I'm sorry your group is having problems. Hopefully you will be able to have a rational conversation with the DM about this and bring the other player back. I think what you guys probably need to do is take a break and cool off. It's to be expected that you're all totally pissed off. Though I can't know the whole situation, I feel like you guys are at least somewhat in the right and are owed an explanation from the DM. But everyone yelling at each other just makes things worse.

Write down your concerns logically, so you don't get all flustered and forget them if the next exchange gets heated, and try to use relatively neutral language. "This isn't really fun for us anymore because we feel like you expect us to guess what you're thinking without much in the way of clues and won't let us try other solutions even though it seems to us like some of our solutions could work" is going to be more constructive than "this is all your fault, you're railroading us and this thing is way overpowered and we don't want to play with you anymore". (Obviously the second is an exaggeration, but still)

Then...hope both sides can be rational about it, I guess. But you're not going to fix this angry, and unless you magically guess exactly what your DM is thinking, you're not going to solve it in-game either.

[Kansaschaser]

You might still get XP, as there are I believe guidelines for how to CR "easy if handled right, lethal otherwise" encounters (my least favorite kind, except for "certain tpk") in the DMG. Not sure, as I use free-form experience when I DM.

But yeah, "there's a way to defeat it, guess what I'm thinking" only works if you
1) Give plenty of hints as to what you are thinking, and
2) Allow outside-the-box solutions you didn't think of to work, even if they weren't the super-cool ending you intended.

I'm sorry your group is having problems. Hopefully you will be able to have a rational conversation with the DM about this and bring the other player back. I think what you guys probably need to do is take a break and cool off. It's to be expected that you're all totally pissed off. Though I can't know the whole situation, I feel like you guys are at least somewhat in the right and are owed an explanation from the DM. But everyone yelling at each other just makes things worse.

Write down your concerns logically, so you don't get all flustered and forget them if the next exchange gets heated, and try to use relatively neutral language. "This isn't really fun for us anymore because we feel like you expect us to guess what you're thinking without much in the way of clues and won't let us try other solutions even though it seems to us like some of our solutions could work" is going to be more constructive than "this is all your fault, you're railroading us and this thing is way overpowered and we don't want to play with you anymore". (Obviously the second is an exaggeration, but still)

Then...hope both sides can be rational about it, I guess. But you're not going to fix this angry, and unless you magically guess exactly what your DM is thinking, you're not going to solve it in-game either.

Thanks for the advice. I wasn't one of the angry players. I kept a level head and was still trying to think of a soultion. That's why I came here to first determine if we were up against a proper challenge rating.

The remaining players and myself will be bringing our concerns to the DM. That includes the "overpowered" boss with the super high challenge rating.

One more thing.

In previous game sessions, we were fighting stone and iron golems. They all had what looked like giant scroll cases mounted on their shoulders. When we got into combat, they shot a light beam at us that encased us in a "faerie fire" effect. We didn't think much of it until we realized that the golems couldn't miss after that. They auto-hit with everything. Also, some of the golems could call down fire from the sky. It was basically orbital satellites that fired mega-lasers. We found an "engineer" npc who told us the factories and control towers we would have to take out to reduce the power of the golems. We took out all the towers and factories before we started the fight with this boss golem. Now it seems like we were wasting our time trying to reduce his power before battle. Can you immagine the kind of smackdown we would receive if we didn't take out these extra powers?

[Big Fau]

2. We are too low for a Forcecage spell (11th and 12th level).


YOUR DM IS AN IDIOT.


There, I said it. This thing has as many class levels as your party does, but has an AC above 50 and an attack bonus above that. Never mind that it's got abilities of a Psion around that level and the traits of an Iron Golem/Mind Flayer.

[PollyOliver]

I think one of the more depressing things about this (besides the group possibly breaking thing) is that it sounds like it could have been totally awesome if handled well.

[BlueInc]

In previous game sessions, we were fighting stone and iron golems. They all had what looked like giant scroll cases mounted on their shoulders. When we got into combat, they shot a light beam at us that encased us in a "faerie fire" effect. We didn't think much of it until we realized that the golems couldn't miss after that. They auto-hit with everything. Also, some of the golems could call down fire from the sky. It was basically orbital satellites that fired mega-lasers. We found an "engineer" npc who told us the factories and control towers we would have to take out to reduce the power of the golems. We took out all the towers and factories before we started the fight with this boss golem. Now it seems like we were wasting our time trying to reduce his power before battle. Can you immagine the kind of smackdown we would receive if we didn't take out these extra powers?

Have you tried using the "faerie fire" guns on the boss so that you autohit?

Did the engineer NPC know how to use the orbital defense guns - or did you already destroy all the equipment to use them?

Is the engineer NPC with you/easily accessible? Have him come in and start working on the computers in the room.

[Edit]: I'd just like to say, the orbital laser is making me thinking of the "Hammer of Dawn" from Gears of War XD

[Edit 2]: Wait... doesn't the "boss" have some kind of hammer of light? If your DM likes Gears of War, that might be a big hint.

[Kansaschaser]

Have you tried using the "faerie fire" guns on the boss so that you autohit?

Did the engineer NPC know how to use the orbital defense guns - or did you already destroy all the equipment to use them?

Is the engineer NPC with you/easily accessible? Have him come in and start working on the computers in the room.

[Edit]: I'd just like to say, the orbital laser is making me thinking of the "Hammer of Dawn" from Gears of War XD

[Edit 2]: Wait... doesn't the "boss" have some kind of hammer of light? If your DM likes Gears of War, that might be a big hint.

EDIT: We took the "bombs" and "guns" out of the destroyed golems and took them to the engineer. We asked him to show us how to use them. He said we didn't have the right power source and "codes" to activate the weapons.

We destroyed all the towers the communicate with the satellites.

We left the engineer back at our home base (it's a secret underground locations miles and miles away). He said he was "just an engineer and he didn't want to fight".

Yes, the orbital laser we encountered is basically like the "Hammer of Dawn" from Gears of War and Gears of War 2. There is no way to activate the hammer of dawn now since all the towers were destroyed. Also, we fought our way through a giant building to get to the boss inside. The "Hammer of Dawn" only works outside.

We can't beat this boss on a single grapple check, what makes you think we'd have any better luck with a disarm check? I was thinking of trying to take the brilliant energy hammer away too, but I can't figure out how.

[BlueInc]

We destroyed all the towers the communicate with the satellites.

We left the engineer back at our home base (it's a secret underground locations miles and miles away). He said he was "just an engineer and he didn't want to fight".

Yes, the orbital laser we encountered is basically like the "Hammer of Dawn" from Gears of War and Gears of War 2. There is no way to activate the hammer of dawn now since all the towers were destroyed. Also, we fought our way through a giant building to get to the boss inside. The "Hammer of Dawn" only works outside.

We can't beat this boss on a single grapple check, what makes you think we'd have any better luck with a disarm check? I was thinking of trying to take the brilliant energy hammer away too, but I can't figure out how.

Darn. What about the autohit faerie fire guns?

[Kansaschaser]

Darn. What about the autohit faerie fire guns?

See my post above. I put in an "EDIT".


YOUR DM IS AN IDIOT.


There, I said it. This thing has as many class levels as your party does, but has an AC above 50 and an attack bonus above that. Never mind that it's got abilities of a Psion around that level and the traits of an Iron Golem/Mind Flayer.

He's a smart guy. It's just that this is his first time as a DM. I think he may have thought that since we were gestalt, he could gestalt the bad guys and it would make them an even challenge rating. So I think he took an Iron Golem and added class levels next to the racial hit dice instead of adding class levels on top of the racial hit dice.

[BlueInc]

EDIT: We took the "bombs" and "guns" out of the destroyed golems and took them to the engineer. We asked him to show us how to use them. He said we didn't have the right power source and "codes" to activate the weapons.

Is it possible the power source and codes are in the room?

...though I'm guessing you don't have any of the guns or bombs with you and that even if you did, you'd probably need someone to show you how to use them, and the NPC engineer is miles away and all teleportation spells are blocked.

-_-

[BlueInc]

I suppose it's incredibly unlikely to work, but have you tried bull rushing him off the platform?

[Kansaschaser]

Is it possible the power source and codes are in the room?

...though I'm guessing you don't have any of the guns or bombs with you and that even if you did, you'd probably need someone to show you how to use them, and the NPC engineer is miles away and all teleportation spells are blocked.

-_-

Yeah, we left all the technology back at our base for the engineer to use. He was using the spare parts to fix a "ship" so we could return to our home sphere.

If the DM said we have what we need to beat this boss, then the technology isn't it.


I suppose it's incredibly unlikely to work, but have you tried bull rushing him off the platform?

The boss is Huge size. I enlarged the dwarf fighter to Large size to help him in combat. Not sure if bull rushing will accomplish anything. The boss has a perfect maneuverability flight. Also, since the only character with any chance of bull rushing is being grappled, I don't think that's going to happen.

[Big Fau]

He's a smart guy. It's just that this is his first time as a DM. I think he may have thought that since we were gestalt, he could gestalt the bad guys and it would make them an even challenge rating. So I think he took an Iron Golem and added class levels next to the racial hit dice instead of adding class levels on top of the racial hit dice.

There's a difference between smart people and smart DMs. Smart DMs may or may not be smart people, but they know the rules and know how to work with them to achieve a desired result. Smart people can still be idiots when put behind the DM screen. The rules may be only a guideline, but without those rules you may as well not even read the books.

And yes, the HD thing is what I meant. Never mind that it seems to have custom magic items. And custom abilities. From the sounds of it, he's never designed a custom encounter and needs some serious training. Send him either here or to BG, we'll set things straight and make the encounters enjoyable instead of half-assed.

[Kansaschaser]

There's a difference between smart people and smart DMs. Smart DMs may or may not be smart people, but they know the rules and know how to work with them to achieve a desired result. Smart people can still be idiots when put behind the DM screen. The rules may be only a guideline, but without those rules you may as well not even read the books.

And yes, the HD thing is what I meant. Never mind that it seems to have custom magic items. And custom abilities. From the sounds of it, he's never designed a custom encounter and needs some serious training. Send him either here or to BG, we'll set things straight and make the encounters enjoyable instead of half-assed.

I will point him this way and tell him to post his full encounter plus what he thought the challenge rating was. We'll do this when we have our little heart to heart with him.

[erikun]

I was thinking of trying to take the brilliant energy hammer away too, but I can't figure out how.
Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm)fourmoreletters

[PollyOliver]

It gets a save though, since it's in someone's possession. And since it's artifact, level, its save will be high. And since this encounter appears to be solvable by only the one precise method the DM says it is, I imagine its save will be arbitrarily high. But it's worth a shot.

[Kansaschaser]

Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm)fourmoreletters


It gets a save though, since it's in someone's possession. And since it's artifact, level, its save will be high. And since this encounter appears to be solvable by only the one precise method the DM says it is, I imagine its save will be arbitrarily high. But it's worth a shot.

What PollyOliver said. My save for first level spells is only an 18. I'm the only one that could cast grease since I'm the utility spellcaster, but I didn't memorize it for the encounter. Plus, I think it would make the save. :smallfrown:

[Starbuck_II]

See my post above. I put in an "EDIT".



He's a smart guy. It's just that this is his first time as a DM. I think he may have thought that since we were gestalt, he could gestalt the bad guys and it would make them an even challenge rating. So I think he took an Iron Golem and added class levels next to the racial hit dice instead of adding class levels on top of the racial hit dice.

Gestalt right? So that lowers CR to CR 21.
So... still overpowering but not double your level.

I say try Grease., he will roll a 1 eventually. Heck, grease the tentacles so he can't grab you. :smallcool:

Or go make some scrolls of grease?
Knock its weapon/him into disintegrate field? Weapon doesn't have SR so it will be destroyed.

[Slipperychicken]

Lure it into one of the cages (break in if you have to), keep it in there long enough to destroy whatever's holding it above the field. Perfect Flight, AC, and all the saves in the world won't help him when he's in a giant cage weighed down with prisoners hurtling downward. To have enough time to break the suspension, you may need someone/something to block the hole/door to the cage. That's what I'd try to do.


It clearly wants the prisoners for *something*, or else it would've killed them by now. Maybe you can threaten/kill some prisoners and hope that changes its mind. You can try disbelieving it, it might be unaffected by your attacks because it's an illusion. Or you might've been unlucky with miss chances. Do you possess any Items that could ever conceivably be used in this situation? Do the hostages know anything useful? Did any other items/terrain catch your eye in the room?

But this might be the most important question: When you spoke to it, what did it say? (exact quote would be nice, but not required) This might give some indication of its goals or weakness(es).

[Quellian-dyrae]

It might not be enough, but you might try to see if the DM will undo the Tenser on account of the rules not working like that. It used Personality Parasite, right? The parasite created by that power can only take purely mental actions. Casting Tenser's Transformation has Verbal, Somatic, and Material components, and requires both having and drinking a Potion of Bull's Strength. It's not a valid choice, because it requires physical actions to perform the spell (in fact, Personality Parasite is a pretty weak power to use on any non-psionic character, since spells are rarely purely mental, Stilled Silent spells aside).

If you can get a retcon so the healer can actually take any actions it lost, even better.

'Course, if I'm wrong about what it used, then this won't help you.

[stemfish]

In the past I've made up encounters like this and sometimes you just have to run like hell. Yea, you lose your fighter, but as was posted earlier-have him chop off a part and let you all run and res. Next time have some see invis or glitterdust ready, don't bother with invisibility if he's immune, and have some freedom of movement. If you want to try this now, then typically the monster is being buffed up the wazzoki by something else. As somebody else posted, if almost all organic sentient life is gone, then why are their people alive?

But really, get some thing from the dwarf, grab some hairs as you sprint out, and come back when you know more.

[koeldflare]

Not to be defending the DM or anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual creaure itself, minus the mystical artifacts of doom, was actually under epic levels.

The reason I mention this is that constructs, by the usual nature at least, would only get a a +1 to CR for every 2 non-associated class levels. So if the uber golem of DOOM is using temporal acceleration, which would make him a level 12(?) psion. So that would be about a +6 to CR, for about an 19 total.

Also, as far as the tentacles and brain extraction, I would bet my money that he probably took the Illithid Heritage feat tree from the almost useless book Complete Psionic.. He probably took the Illithid Grappe Feats, then took Illithid Extraction after. The only problem I see with this is that is a total of 7 feats to do so, which means he used his feats exclusively to do this. Also, you can only ever use the tentacles to grapple a creature within 1 size category of you, so no grappling medium creatures if he's actually huge sized.

In the end, the only problems I have with this encounter is that:
A) The DM clearly has only one solution to the encounter, and unless you get this specific solution, you are going to fail.
B) The base monster is clearly awakened somehow, and also probably has a boatload of class levels, which makes him at least CR 19, and most certainly higher with the items.
C) Overall I would say that you should probably shrink your characters somehow (to prevent being brain-drained), then try to get the frenzied berserker to distract the boss as you either figure out how to disable it, or gtfo.

[Kansaschaser]

Lure it into one of the cages (break in if you have to), keep it in there long enough to destroy whatever's holding it above the field. Perfect Flight, AC, and all the saves in the world won't help him when he's in a giant cage weighed down with prisoners hurtling downward. To have enough time to break the suspension, you may need someone/something to block the hole/door to the cage. That's what I'd try to do.


It clearly wants the prisoners for *something*, or else it would've killed them by now. Maybe you can threaten/kill some prisoners and hope that changes its mind. You can try disbelieving it, it might be unaffected by your attacks because it's an illusion. Or you might've been unlucky with miss chances. Do you possess any Items that could ever conceivably be used in this situation? Do the hostages know anything useful? Did any other items/terrain catch your eye in the room?

But this might be the most important question: When you spoke to it, what did it say? (exact quote would be nice, but not required) This might give some indication of its goals or weakness(es).

Ok, wow. Just wow. We are all good characters, so we would never threaten or kill any of the prisoners. It's because the golem kidnapped them that we are even there in the first place.

Every person in the game was going over their character sheets several times, looking at their items, and checking their feat/spell lists. We can't find anything useful.

As for an exact quote? Just so you know, the golem calls himself "Alpha".

I said, "Alpha, you were created to destroy the illithids and defend these people. You should be protecting them, not exterminating them."

Alpha responded, "They are weak, so they must die. They are imperfect, so they must be exterminated."


It might not be enough, but you might try to see if the DM will undo the Tenser on account of the rules not working like that. It used Personality Parasite, right? The parasite created by that power can only take purely mental actions. Casting Tenser's Transformation has Verbal, Somatic, and Material components, and requires both having and drinking a Potion of Bull's Strength. It's not a valid choice, because it requires physical actions to perform the spell (in fact, Personality Parasite is a pretty weak power to use on any non-psionic character, since spells are rarely purely mental, Stilled Silent spells aside).

If you can get a retcon so the healer can actually take any actions it lost, even better.

'Course, if I'm wrong about what it used, then this won't help you.

Oh, that's a great point. Our healer/blaster didn't have the material components to cast that spell either. I've been so focused on the boss, I didn't take into account a companions material components. Thanks! I'll point that out to the DM. Maybe we can get our healer back.


In the past I've made up encounters like this and sometimes you just have to run like hell. Yea, you lose your fighter, but as was posted earlier-have him chop off a part and let you all run and res. Next time have some see invis or glitterdust ready, don't bother with invisibility if he's immune, and have some freedom of movement. If you want to try this now, then typically the monster is being buffed up the wazzoki by something else. As somebody else posted, if almost all organic sentient life is gone, then why are their people alive?

But really, get some thing from the dwarf, grab some hairs as you sprint out, and come back when you know more.

We could try to run, but this thing had a movement of 120 last time we saw him. We've seen this boss several times over the last few games sessions and we knew some of his abilities before we fought him. The illithid tentacles on his face was new since we saw him last.

The survivors we found were deep underground. They were half dead and starving. We used magic to fortify their defenses, feed them, cloth them, and give them basic needs.

As for resurrecting the dwarf later, that's not going to be possible. This is a world of technology and not magic. We are not a high enough level to cast true resurrection. We can't just pop down to the local jeweler and purchase the gems we need to cast a resurrection spell. Also, there are no temples to purchase scrolls and no other spellcasters to hire here.


Not to be defending the DM or anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual creaure itself, minus the mystical artifacts of doom, was actually under epic levels.

The reason I mention this is that constructs, by the usual nature at least, would only get a a +1 to CR for every 2 non-associated class levels. So if the uber golem of DOOM is using temporal acceleration, which would make him a level 12(?) psion. So that would be about a +6 to CR, for about an 19 total.

Also, as far as the tentacles and brain extraction, I would bet my money that he probably took the Illithid Heritage feat tree from the almost useless book Complete Psionic.. He probably took the Illithid Grappe Feats, then took Illithid Extraction after. The only problem I see with this is that is a total of 7 feats to do so, which means he used his feats exclusively to do this. Also, you can only ever use the tentacles to grapple a creature within 1 size category of you, so no grappling medium creatures if he's actually huge sized.

In the end, the only problems I have with this encounter is that:
A) The DM clearly has only one solution to the encounter, and unless you get this specific solution, you are going to fail.
B) The base monster is clearly awakened somehow, and also probably has a boatload of class levels, which makes him at least CR 19, and most certainly higher with the items.
C) Overall I would say that you should probably shrink your characters somehow (to prevent being brain-drained), then try to get the frenzied berserker to distract the boss as you either figure out how to disable it, or gtfo.

A) Yes, he knows the only solution. I tried to tell the DM that I as a player cannot conceive of the correct solution, but maybe my character with an intelligence of 24 can. I asked if he could give me a clue as to what we need to do. His answer, "It's something you've already done or spoke about doing but you did it wrong." On the first round of combat I readied an action to cast Dispel Magic to counter the bosses Dispel Magic.

B) Yes, I stated that the boss is Awakened. As for the items, I instructed the Dwarf to start sundering all the bosses worn items in hopes that it would loose buffs and or immunities to electricity. After destroying the Bracers, Gloves, Rings, Necklace, and Belt, we have seen no appreciable difference.

C) I didn't know they had to be within one size category to have their brain extracted. So when I enlarged the Dwarf to Large size, that was a mistake. I should shrink the Dwarf back down to Medium. Since the boss is Huge, he wouldn't be able to suck out the Dwarf's meager brain. Is that correct?

[koeldflare]

C) I didn't know they had to be within one size category to have their brain extracted. So when I enlarged the Dwarf to Large size, that was a mistake. I should shrink the Dwarf back down to Medium. Since the boss is Huge, he wouldn't be able to suck out the Dwarf's meager brain. Is that correct?

If he's using the feat then yes, as long as you shrunk the dwarf down to medium size, he actually wouldn't be able to grapple him with the tentacles.

[Malimar]

C) I didn't know they had to be within one size category to have their brain extracted. So when I enlarged the Dwarf to Large size, that was a mistake. I should shrink the Dwarf back down to Medium. Since the boss is Huge, he wouldn't be able to suck out the Dwarf's meager brain. Is that correct?

It's only correct if it's those specific feats. It could just have the half-illithid template, which lets you suck out the brain of anything smaller than you.

[Kansaschaser]

If he's using the feat then yes, as long as you shrunk the dwarf down to medium size, he actually wouldn't be able to grapple him with the tentacles.


It's only correct if it's those specific feats. It could just have the half-illithid template, which lets you suck out the brain of anything smaller than you.

Well, that's something. It's worth trying, so we'll see. It couldn't get much worse. Could it? :smalleek:

[stemfish]

Even with a 24 int and an obviously losing party, you didn't get any easy hints? I understand the fact that it's technology, not anything you'd know, but you may want to try that again.

This is a truly strong monster and you guys don't have forcecage/limited wish or any way to control him... Resilient Sphere would be too small to really work, he can see invisible so using illusions will be hard, wall of ice/stone/force could work, he has flight you'd have to somehow trap him and good luck with that. Sunder the wings?

And you took out 5 magical items to no avail on the magic? Wow, try smacking it again, possibly it's AC is down to a level where you can actually hit it.

[Quellian-dyrae]

I just had a thought. Are you absolutely positive that this thing has magic immunity? Did your DM specifically tell you it did, or did you empirically determine that it did? Or are you assuming so because it's an iron golem? Because unless I miss my guess, this thing isn't a custom creature at all, and your DM isn't building a puzzle encounter. He's just giving you an introduction to high level Tier 2 gestalt combat.

I'm betting it's a level 15+ Psion//Psychic Warrior with either those illithid feats or that illithid class or whatever and a high level gestalt psionic character's full assortment of buffs, including, but by no means limited to, Iron Body, Expansion, Power Resistance, and Dispelling Buffer (EDIT: And Energy Retort, that's that 6d6 when you hit it or whatever). Plus all the stat boosts you can get with two different manifesting classes providing stackable PP. Maybe Metamorphosis or a template or an item or a refluffed psionic flying power for the wings.

If I'm right, your best move is to buff your CL in any way you can and spam dispels until its buffs go down, and then use superior action economy to tear it to shreds.

[Talakeal]

Many DMs are used to playing video games or watching movies where most of the boss fights are resolved by some sort of "gimmick" on the part of the heroes and they try and incorporate this into their games, never thinking about just how hard it is for players to guess what they are thinking.
It's a very hard line for a DM to draw the line between a legitimate overwhelming encounter which cannot be solved with conventional combat (which the DMG suggests should happen now and again) and a guessing game which leads to an inevitable TPK.

One time I had a big boss monster that was the embodiment of the PCs fears. It started out overwhelmingly powerful, but grew weaker and weaker as the PCs faced it, basically getting -1 HD each time anyone did any offensive action against it, and almost any tactic they would have used would have brought it down to their level very quickly.
The players knew it was fueled by their fear, but didn't grasp the significance of it. So, after the first couple rounds of getting beaten up they decided that this monster simply couldn't be beaten and decided to run away. The monster was faster than they were, and the result was a horrible TPK.

I learned a hard lesson that day. No matter how obvious or simple the solution may seem to you as a DM the player's WILL NOT GET IT, and you are only asking for trouble by involving such fights in the game. Your DM will learn the same lesson eventually, I wouldn't suggest quitting the game over it.

By the way, my guess would be you are supposed to talk to the creature. If it believes imperfect things must be destroyed maybe you are supposed to point out that it is itself an imperfect product of an imperfect world.




By the way, to the people who are insisting the DM is "cheating", I would not say using a gestalt monster / npc with standard WBL is out of line for a gestalt game, and CRs of up to average level +6 are doable by a six a person under standard DMG guidelines.

[Kansaschaser]

Even with a 24 int and an obviously losing party, you didn't get any easy hints? I understand the fact that it's technology, not anything you'd know, but you may want to try that again.

This is a truly strong monster and you guys don't have forcecage/limited wish or any way to control him... Resilient Sphere would be too small to really work, he can see invisible so using illusions will be hard, wall of ice/stone/force could work, he has flight you'd have to somehow trap him and good luck with that. Sunder the wings?

And you took out 5 magical items to no avail on the magic? Wow, try smacking it again, possibly it's AC is down to a level where you can actually hit it.

None of us have access to Forcecage. It's too high for us and we don't have access to any magic shops here. I doubt the DM would let us "sunder" body parts. We've already asked if we can attack the tentacles that are grappling the Dwarf fighter. He said we would have to hit it's AC to hit the tentacles.

The DM kind of chuckled that the bosses AC dropped a few points after we sundered one of the rings. So it could have lost up to 5 points of AC from a Ring of Protection. I bet it was only a +3 bonus. I think the AC is still around the 50's somewhere.


I just had a thought. Are you absolutely positive that this thing has magic immunity? Did your DM specifically tell you it did, or did you empirically determine that it did? Or are you assuming so because it's an iron golem? Because unless I miss my guess, this thing isn't a custom creature at all, and your DM isn't building a puzzle encounter. He's just giving you an introduction to high level Tier 2 gestalt combat.

I'm betting it's a level 15+ Psion//Psychic Warrior with either those illithid feats or that illithid class or whatever and a high level gestalt psionic character's full assortment of buffs, including, but by no means limited to, Iron Body, Expansion, Power Resistance, and Dispelling Buffer (EDIT: And Energy Retort, that's that 6d6 when you hit it or whatever). Plus all the stat boosts you can get with two different manifesting classes providing stackable PP. Maybe Metamorphosis or a template or an item or a refluffed psionic flying power for the wings.

If I'm right, your best move is to buff your CL in any way you can and spam dispels until its buffs go down, and then use superior action economy to tear it to shreds.

Yes, it has magic immunity because it's an Iron Golem. That much we know for a fact since we made our knowledge checks. We know lightning spells slow him and fire spells heal him. On the first round of combat, our blaster shot him with an orb of electricity. We thought it would slow him, but he absorbed the electricity and he seemed to speed up. We have fought many other golems since we got to this planet. They have all been immune to spells.

Yeah, I guess the "throns" effect we are getting is from Energy Retort.

I have only one way of boosting my caster level. I have Harmonic Chorus. Even if I boost my caster level, I'm limited to a +10 to my roll for Dispel Magic. I'm an 11th level caster, so boosting my caster level for Dispel Magic would be no different. If we had access to Greater Dispel Magic, we could get up to +15 to our roll.

[Socratov]

ok, im stricken with the rubx complex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_House) for now...

in storytelling you often find certein concepts... if the bbeg is big you will need find a stength of you being smaller they he is... (mostly the biggger they are, the harder they fall) If you see things empowering them (like those invisible things in the corner) try and move them, or use those at your advantage, if you a computer liek thing, try meddeling with that to see how the golem reacts to it, if he has prisoners, try to see if you see those prisoners have some abilities the golem has (as if he has stolen them) and try to free a prisoner to see what kind of an effect that has on the golem, if he seems invincible, try so find a weak spot (it will be likely to bo something really stupid) if he is strong, use your wits to battle him, try to be that anti golem, or try to find characteristics he has, and take those opposite to them. This encoutner is (as said before) a puzzle instead of a fight with a CR. Chances are you will need to find the pieces and complete the puzzle. If you as a group can't seem to find the answer, ask for hints, say you know you aren't supposed to fight it, but solve the puzzle. Also mention what your character's outlook on this environment is, and explain how you are unable to solve this in character. If he stubbornly keeps saying you jsut need to find the answer on your won you can still leave as a group, but this will probably create resentment between your party and the DM IRL. If need be let yourselves die and congatulate him on the fact that he has made a puzzle you as a party couldn't solve (abeit with a lot of sarcasm indicating you are not pleased with him as a DM).

[Skaven]

In this situation my group would probably begin discussing what characters they're going to make next and maybe who is running the game next.

Gimmicks do not work in this kind of game as gimmicks only work via obvious clues and visuals: which only the DM has properly in their head. Gimmicks work in video games because they're incredibly obvious in the visual, many games even put a big ! sign or its equivalent above gimmicks that are required to be used.

It sounds like your DM has made a big mistake: don't get too angry over it. If its his first time DMing we all make mistakes on our first tries. Even veteran DM's mess up from time to time. Talk to him, explain everything, and above all else, don't be afraid to throw in the towel and just say you are not having fun any more and it may be best for him to take a DMing break and have someone else run the game while things cool off. It may even turn into a big group joke in the future.

[Kansaschaser]

ok, im stricken with the rubx complex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_House) for now...

in storytelling you often find certein concepts... if the bbeg is big you will need find a stength of you being smaller they he is... (mostly the biggger they are, the harder they fall) If you see things empowering them (like those invisible things in the corner) try and move them, or use those at your advantage, if you a computer liek thing, try meddeling with that to see how the golem reacts to it, if he has prisoners, try to see if you see those prisoners have some abilities the golem has (as if he has stolen them) and try to free a prisoner to see what kind of an effect that has on the golem, if he seems invincible, try so find a weak spot (it will be likely to bo something really stupid) if he is strong, use your wits to battle him, try to be that anti golem, or try to find characteristics he has, and take those opposite to them. This encoutner is (as said before) a puzzle instead of a fight with a CR. Chances are you will need to find the pieces and complete the puzzle. If you as a group can't seem to find the answer, ask for hints, say you know you aren't supposed to fight it, but solve the puzzle. Also mention what your character's outlook on this environment is, and explain how you are unable to solve this in character. If he stubbornly keeps saying you jsut need to find the answer on your won you can still leave as a group, but this will probably create resentment between your party and the DM IRL. If need be let yourselves die and congatulate him on the fact that he has made a puzzle you as a party couldn't solve (abeit with a lot of sarcasm indicating you are not pleased with him as a DM).

One of the reasons we haven't started trying to mess with the computers is this...

The building we are in is actually a Fusion (or possibly Fisson) Power Plant. We talked to the engineer about the building and we said we could probably just destroy the building. The engineer said if the plant shuts down, it would probably explode, destroying the entire city, and the few remaining survivors that are hidden in the city. We thought that was a bad idea since Alpha (the golem boss) heals when he takes fire damage.


In this situation my group would probably begin discussing what characters they're going to make next and maybe who is running the game next.

Gimmicks do not work in this kind of game as gimmicks only work via obvious clues and visuals: which only the DM has properly in their head. Gimmicks work in video games because they're incredibly obvious in the visual, many games even put a big ! sign or its equivalent above gimmicks that are required to be used.

It sounds like your DM has made a big mistake: don't get too angry over it. If its his first time DMing we all make mistakes on our first tries. Even veteran DM's mess up from time to time. Talk to him, explain everything, and above all else, don't be afraid to throw in the towel and just say you are not having fun any more and it may be best for him to take a DMing break and have someone else run the game while things cool off. It may even turn into a big group joke in the future.

When I sit down and talk with the DM, I will ask for more clues as to what the solution might be. We as players can't seem to come up with the solution that the DM is thinking of.

I spoke with some of the other players that haven't quit and we said we'd like to continue the fight and let it take it's natural course. If we end up dying, it's just a lesson the DM would have to learn.

[Sorcerer Blob]

When I sit down and talk with the DM, I will ask for more clues as to what the solution might be. We as players can't seem to come up with the solution that the DM is thinking of.

When are you planning on speaking with him? Sooner rather than later is definitely a good rule of thumb here. At the very least, if he decides to give you hints, your group can think about what to do next. Ideally, after your conversation, he can either retcon or adapt the encounter to closer to your level, and that might take some time and work on his part. That, and springing your group complaints/concerns on him the day before you game would just suck!

[Kansaschaser]

When are you planning on speaking with him? Sooner rather than later is definitely a good rule of thumb here. At the very least, if he decides to give you hints, your group can think about what to do next. Ideally, after your conversation, he can either retcon or adapt the encounter to closer to your level, and that might take some time and work on his part. That, and springing your group complaints/concerns on him the day before you game would just suck!

Unfortunatly, we may have to have the "heart to heart" right before the next game. I can text him right now, but I'd rather not have that "heart to heart" over text.

[ragingrage]

Yeah, this happened to my group once, and it wasn't very pleasent. The GM is chiding you on being so oblivious, and everyone's just getting angrier and angrier. Definately talk to him
Also, do tell us how the talk goes, please.

[erikun]

C) I didn't know they had to be within one size category to have their brain extracted. So when I enlarged the Dwarf to Large size, that was a mistake. I should shrink the Dwarf back down to Medium. Since the boss is Huge, he wouldn't be able to suck out the Dwarf's meager brain. Is that correct?
Enlarge Person is dismissable as a standard action. As others have said, it may not save him, but it is possible to turn off your spell without wasting another dispel magic.

Also, I'd like to know what the "solution" is after your next game session. I've been made curious about how truely obvious it should be.

[PirateLizard]

If it is a puzzle, the CR will be that of how difficult the DM deems it, and the monster's is relatively irrelevant since it won't kill you until x amount of time has expired. The first thing you should do is figure out what the objects are. The second thing you should do is go all AGC and power gamer a way to defeat it, that rust monster idea is excellent if you can swing it. If neither of those provide any clues, you can always kick him in the balls and hope he gets the clue. :smallcool:

[Quellian-dyrae]

Yes, it has magic immunity because it's an Iron Golem. That much we know for a fact since we made our knowledge checks. We know lightning spells slow him and fire spells heal him. On the first round of combat, our blaster shot him with an orb of electricity. We thought it would slow him, but he absorbed the electricity and he seemed to speed up. We have fought many other golems since we got to this planet. They have all been immune to spells.

See, I could be missing something, but that sounds to me like you might be getting shell gamed here. A Psion//Psychic Warrior using Iron Body and Expansion would appear just like an iron golem. So of course, any Knowledge checks with regards to iron golems would reveal it has magic immunity.

A psion can also grant itself immunity to energy types (Energy Nullification Field or Mind Over Energy). I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's some obscure feat, item, or power that makes damage of a certain type speed you up, or it could have just manifested a speed-boosting power after getting hit or something.

I mean, I could be wrong, but when you look at all the potential powers a high level gestalt psionic character could have, and factor in magic items, possible prestige classes, and so on, just about everything this thing does except magic immunity can be explained. But if you are convinced it's a golem (and the DM refers to it as a golem), you might never actually try to hit it with an SR - Yes spell.

I don't know, this just seems like a very highly-optimized gestalt psionic character, rather than an Epic CR custom monstrosity. 'Course, I don't know your DM, so I could very easily be wrong.

[Kansaschaser]

Yeah, this happened to my group once, and it wasn't very pleasent. The GM is chiding you on being so oblivious, and everyone's just getting angrier and angrier. Definately talk to him
Also, do tell us how the talk goes, please.


Enlarge Person is dismissable as a standard action. As others have said, it may not save him, but it is possible to turn off your spell without wasting another dispel magic.

Also, I'd like to know what the "solution" is after your next game session. I've been made curious about how truely obvious it should be.


If it is a puzzle, the CR will be that of how difficult the DM deems it, and the monster's is relatively irrelevant since it won't kill you until x amount of time has expired. The first thing you should do is figure out what the objects are. The second thing you should do is go all AGC and power gamer a way to defeat it, that rust monster idea is excellent if you can swing it. If neither of those provide any clues, you can always kick him in the balls and hope he gets the clue. :smallcool:

I will try to let you all know what the solution was once we discover it. I promise I won't keep you guys in the dark.


See, I could be missing something, but that sounds to me like you might be getting shell gamed here. A Psion//Psychic Warrior using Iron Body and Expansion would appear just like an iron golem. So of course, any Knowledge checks with regards to iron golems would reveal it has magic immunity.

A psion can also grant itself immunity to energy types (Energy Nullification Field or Mind Over Energy). I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's some obscure feat, item, or power that makes damage of a certain type speed you up, or it could have just manifested a speed-boosting power after getting hit or something.

I mean, I could be wrong, but when you look at all the potential powers a high level gestalt psionic character could have, and factor in magic items, possible prestige classes, and so on, just about everything this thing does except magic immunity can be explained. But if you are convinced it's a golem (and the DM refers to it as a golem), you might never actually try to hit it with an SR - Yes spell.

I don't know, this just seems like a very highly-optimized gestalt psionic character, rather than an Epic CR custom monstrosity. 'Course, I don't know your DM, so I could very easily be wrong.

It is a golem. That is a fact. In previous encounters, we cast spells at him (Magic Missile, Fireball, and Chain Lightning). He was completely immune to any spell with spell resistance. Any spell that did fire damage, it healed him instead. Any spell that did electricity damage slowed him instead. That's how we escaped him last time. We used electricity to slow him down so we could escape. He seem to be immune to electricity now.

He's also used the Iron Golem's free action breath weapon. However, instead of only doing the breath weapon every 1d4+1 rounds, it was able to do the breath weapon every round.

[Forbiddenwar]

I said, "Alpha, you were created to destroy the illithids and defend these people. You should be protecting them, not exterminating them."

Alpha responded, "They are weak, so they must die. They are imperfect, so they must be exterminated."

This is right out of Star Trek. Go Kirk on him.

On DM behavior
Puzzles in general and puzzle fights in particular can be fun, if:
a) The party knows it's a puzzle and enjoys it.
b) There is no time limit and no penalty for failure besides lost time.
c) The DM recognizes that there are many solutions to the puzzle and allows ones he didn't think of to work.

Your DM needs to know that he needs to have all 3 or else a puzzle fight can destroy his group.

[Kansaschaser]

This is right out of Star Trek. Go Kirk on him.

On DM behavior
Puzzles in general and puzzle fights in particular can be fun, if:
a) The party knows it's a puzzle and enjoys it.
b) There is no time limit and no penalty for failure besides lost time.
c) The DM recognizes that there are many solutions to the puzzle and allows ones he didn't think of to work.

Your DM needs to know that he needs to have all 3 or else a puzzle fight can destroy his group.

a) We didn't enter the fight thinking it was a puzzle.
b) There certinly is a time limit. The limit is reached when he finally kills us all. We have basically exhausted all of the healers top heals in the first 7 rounds keeping people alive.
c) The DM seems to believe that the only solution is his solution. He also seems to think it's obvious and that we should have figured it out by now.

[Forbiddenwar]

a) We didn't enter the fight thinking it was a puzzle.
b) There certinly is a time limit. The limit is reached when he finally kills us all. We have basically exhausted all of the healers top heals in the first 7 rounds keeping people alive.
c) The DM seems to believe that the only solution is his solution. He also seems to think it's obvious and that we should have figured it out by now.

Which means as a DM, he has messed up royally, and he needs to know that. If he refuses to acknowledge that fact, get a new DM.

Tell him that unfortunately Psionics don't work in real life. It's a pain, but his actions clearly show that he is deluding himself. (AKA we can't read you F___ mind)

[Kansaschaser]

Tell him that unfortunately Psionics don't work in real life. It's a pain, but his actions clearly show that he is deluding himself. (AKA we can't read you F___ mind)

Hehe, yeah. That's what we are going to tell him, but in a nicer way. Plus, I hope to get him signed up on here so he can ask for advice on DM'ing. Then he could also post his boss golem and we can have the playgrounders figure out his real challenge rating.:smallwink:

[BlueInc]

I said, "Alpha, you were created to destroy the illithids and defend these people. You should be protecting them, not exterminating them."

Alpha responded, "They are weak, so they must die. They are imperfect, so they must be exterminated."

My guess: You have to prove to prove to Alpha that it is imperfect, causing it to freak out and either exterminate it or have a change of heart.

The hard part: Figuring out how to prove to it it's not perfect when the DM has basically made it so.

One possibility from the SRD:

"An iron golem is affected normally by rust attacks, such as that of a rust monster or a rusting grasp spell."

Unfortunately, that's a 4th level Druid spell.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Regarding people who liken this to an MMO, you've got a point there. The difference is in a game like WoW, you've got a team of professional designers and hundreds of volunteer playtesters balancing content, as opposed to one designer playtesting encounters on the fly.

That said, I've had good results with gimmick/puzzle fights...partially because both I and my players play MMOs and can think that way quickly. One fight I did put a troll-like demon on a chain against the players. They almost instantly realized how to get it to entangle itself :P

[Ungoded]

A) Yes, he knows the only solution. I tried to tell the DM that I as a player cannot conceive of the correct solution, but maybe my character with an intelligence of 24 can. I asked if he could give me a clue as to what we need to do. His answer, "It's something you've already done or spoke about doing but you did it wrong." On the first round of combat I readied an action to cast Dispel Magic to counter the bosses Dispel Magic.

Maybe he wants you to dispel something in the room other than the golem.

[Big Fau]

Maybe he wants you to use a Paradox against it?

[Quellian-dyrae]

It is a golem. That is a fact. In previous encounters, we cast spells at him (Magic Missile, Fireball, and Chain Lightning). He was completely immune to any spell with spell resistance. Any spell that did fire damage, it healed him instead. Any spell that did electricity damage slowed him instead. That's how we escaped him last time. We used electricity to slow him down so we could escape. He seem to be immune to electricity now.

He's also used the Iron Golem's free action breath weapon. However, instead of only doing the breath weapon every 1d4+1 rounds, it was able to do the breath weapon every round.

Ah okay. Well, so much for that theory.

[Kansaschaser]

My guess: You have to prove to prove to Alpha that it is imperfect, causing it to freak out and either exterminate it or have a change of heart.

The hard part: Figuring out how to prove to it it's not perfect when the DM has basically made it so.

One possibility from the SRD:

"An iron golem is affected normally by rust attacks, such as that of a rust monster or a rusting grasp spell."

Unfortunately, that's a 4th level Druid spell.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Regarding people who liken this to an MMO, you've got a point there. The difference is in a game like WoW, you've got a team of professional designers and hundreds of volunteer playtesters balancing content, as opposed to one designer playtesting encounters on the fly.

That said, I've had good results with gimmick/puzzle fights...partially because both I and my players play MMOs and can think that way quickly. One fight I did put a troll-like demon on a chain against the players. They almost instantly realized how to get it to entangle itself :P

When we first encountered the Iron Golem, we knew that rust attacks would work as well as Electricity spells. We don't have access to Rusting Grasp, so we made sure our blaster could do Electricity. However, the boss seems to be immune to Electricity now.


Maybe he wants you to dispel something in the room other than the golem.

Yeah, that's a problem. Short of taking three rounds to use Detect Magic and then two more rounds to cast Dispel Magic, that's not going to be possible. I highly doubt we have 5 more rounds to do anything.


Maybe he wants you to use a Paradox against it?

Ok, I'm open for suggestions. Know any good paradoxes?


Ah okay. Well, so much for that theory.

Yup... :smallannoyed:

[Amnestic]

Ok, I'm open for suggestions. Know any good paradoxes?


I've always been a fan of the Sorites Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox) personally.

[PollyOliver]

This is cheesy as all heck, and if it turns out to be the actual answer I'd be extremely annoyed, but--verify that it wants to destroy imperfection and ask it if someone imperfect can make something perfect. It probably can't say yes, but if it can, if will have to admit the possibility that the "imperfect" beings it is trying to destroy can create things which are perfect and thus probably should not be destroyed, as they are a source of perfection. If it says no, it might self-destruct, as it is imperfect and, as the strongest thing around, probably the largest source of imperfect in the world. I really hope this isn't the answer, though, because that would be so cliched I'd want to punch somebody.

[Big Fau]

Ok, I'm open for suggestions. Know any good paradoxes?

I have one, but it requires a sentient potato battery...

[Kansaschaser]

I've always been a fan of the Sorites Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox) personally.

Ok, that seems like it would take several rounds to explain to the Golem. That would kind of be my last resort. The interesting thing about that Paradox is that you could use it for a current event. "How much of a man does someone have to be to be considered a man and how much of a woman does someone have to be to be considered a woman?"


This is cheesy as all heck, and if it turns out to be the actual answer I'd be extremely annoyed, but--verify that it wants to destroy imperfection and ask it if someone imperfect can make something perfect. It probably can't say yes, but if it can, if will have to admit the possibility that the "imperfect" beings it is trying to destroy can create things which are perfect and thus probably should not be destroyed, as they are a source of perfection. If it says no, it might self-destruct, as it is imperfect and, as the strongest thing around, probably the largest source of imperfect in the world. I really hope this isn't the answer, though, because that would be so cliched I'd want to punch somebody.

Hmmm, if nothing else works, that's an option. And if it is the answer, I would fee like punching someone too. :smallmad:


I have one, but it requires a sentient potato battery...

Funny enough, we started growing potatoes in our secret underground base to help feed the survivors. As for being sentient or batteries, I'd say no.

[Forbiddenwar]

This is cheesy as all heck, and if it turns out to be the actual answer I'd be extremely annoyed, but--verify that it wants to destroy imperfection and ask it if someone imperfect can make something perfect. It probably can't say yes, but if it can, if will have to admit the possibility that the "imperfect" beings it is trying to destroy can create things which are perfect and thus probably should not be destroyed, as they are a source of perfection. If it says no, it might self-destruct, as it is imperfect and, as the strongest thing around, probably the largest source of imperfect in the world. I really hope this isn't the answer, though, because that would be so cliched I'd want to punch somebody.

That's what I meant by Kirking it.

Hey, talking is free action, so talk to it, while attempting other things.

[Sorcerer Blob]

I can text him right now, but I'd rather not have that "heart to heart" over text.

Yes, good on you for not doing over text or email. This is definitely a conversation that needs to be had in person. Is there any reason that you won't see him prior to the game? Distance? Business? Etc? If you both have the time and are relatively close, then I'd suggest just meeting up somewhere for coffee or a beer (providing you are of age, of course!) I'd suggest doing it one-on-one lest it feel aggressive or like y'all are ganging up on him, and then he will be less likely to agree or concede to you.

At the end of the day, this is supposed to be fun, it's a game after all! If you're not having fun, something is wrong, if no one is having fun, again, say something so you can make it more fun. Just don't take it too seriously, and hopefully he won't take this as a betrayal of friendship/trust. (Worst case scenario, I know, but I've seen some immature things in gaming..)

And I'll 1 Million-eth the vote to tell us how it goes!

[Kansaschaser]

Yes, good on you for not doing over text or email. This is definitely a conversation that needs to be had in person. Is there any reason that you won't see him prior to the game? Distance? Business? Etc? If you both have the time and are relatively close, then I'd suggest just meeting up somewhere for coffee or a beer (providing you are of age, of course!) I'd suggest doing it one-on-one lest it feel aggressive or like y'all are ganging up on him, and then he will be less likely to agree or concede to you.

At the end of the day, this is supposed to be fun, it's a game after all! If you're not having fun, something is wrong, if no one is having fun, again, say something so you can make it more fun. Just don't take it too seriously, and hopefully he won't take this as a betrayal of friendship/trust. (Worst case scenario, I know, but I've seen some immature things in gaming..)

And I'll 1 Million-eth the vote to tell us how it goes!

We mostly can't meet up because of distance and time. We are all busy guys in our (:smallredface:ahem) 30's. We are normally not free at the same times of the day to sit down. The weekends is all we have for free time.

[aquaticrna]

so i've missed the size of the room (if it was mentioned) but if you need to dispel some unknown thing you could just start dropping area dispels, in a couple turns you can cover a pretty large area

[rainstorm]

Maybe it's an illusion....?

[Machinekng]

This is cheesy as all heck, and if it turns out to be the actual answer I'd be extremely annoyed, but--verify that it wants to destroy imperfection and ask it if someone imperfect can make something perfect. It probably can't say yes, but if it can, if will have to admit the possibility that the "imperfect" beings it is trying to destroy can create things which are perfect and thus probably should not be destroyed, as they are a source of perfection. If it says no, it might self-destruct, as it is imperfect and, as the strongest thing around, probably the largest source of imperfect in the world. I really hope this isn't the answer, though, because that would be so cliched I'd want to punch somebody.

That sounds like it would work, and it meshs with the hint, as you tried to talk to the golem, "but did it wrong".

Reminds me of Fallout 3, where you can convince Eden into self-destructing. If your DM owns this game, this paradox seems even more likely.

Or, since it's impossible to have a half-illithid golem, you could use metagame logic to convince the golem it can't exist. This would at least force the DM into giving away something.

[Forbiddenwar]

Reminds me of Fallout 3, where you can convince Eden into self-destructing. If your DM owns this game, this paradox seems even more likely.


Or if your DM knows anything about Star Trek, this paradox seems even more likely.



Or, since it's impossible to have a half-illithid golem, you could use metagame logic to convince the golem it can't exist. This would at least force the DM into giving away something.

"You can't exist, ergo you're imperfect. You must destroy yourself, because you must destroy what is imperfect, but you can't, because you can't exist."

[Ksheep]

Fact: You made your knowledge checks and learned in previous encounters that fire heals it and that electricity slows it.

Fact: When you used electricity on it, it sped up.

Theory: It's elemental immunities got flipped somehow, possibly during whatever transformation gave it the Illithid features.

Ergo, electricity, which formerly slowed it down, now speeds it up… which might mean that fire, instead of healing it, now does massive damage. This may be what your DM was hinting at when he said it's something you tried but did wrong: you tried using it's weakness, only to find that it's no longer it's weakness.

From what you've said, it doesn't sound like you've done a lot of damage to it, so it's not like you'll loose too much work risking it heal with a fire spell.

True, this doesn't make much sense from a core rules standpoint, but there may be something from a splat-book (or, of course, completely houseruled) that allowed for something like this to occur.

I still suggest that you speak your peace to the DM first. This kind of thing is not conductive to a good RPG environment, and should be kept to a minimum. Best of luck!

[Hiro Protagonest]

This thing has a challenge rating of "you can't beat it". Seriously, it can fly, had a free action breath weapon, is immune to everything, and can hit everything.

If one of your party members can summon a rust monster, have them summon a rust monster. If he's immune to that too, take a vote among the players of whether the game should just end right then and there.

[Talakeal]

This thing has a challenge rating of "you can't beat it". Seriously, it can fly, had a free action breath weapon, is immune to everything, and can hit everything.

If one of your party members can summon a rust monster, have them summon a rust monster. If he's immune to that too, take a vote among the players of whether the game should just end right then and there.

I would never vote to end a campaign on the spot because of on instance, especially when they don't have the whole story. For all they know it could be an illusion, or a dream, or a test, or a stupid cut scene plot point where the real BBEG will come in and destroy it at the last second.

If the campaign is perpetually "not fun" then sure, end it. But just because you feel a challenge is in fair you shouldn't quit, you should embrace it. React in character, role-play the experience of confusion and despair brought on by a seemingly impossible opponent. The DM is not "cheating" or even breaking the DMG guidelines by having encounters that can't be solved by combat, and the players should try and make the best of it. IF it happens repeatedly and even with trying to make the best of it, it is still not fun, THEN you talk to the DM about stepping down.

Two gaming stories to illustrate my point if I may.

I once had a campaign that was set in a primitive barbaric world. Unbeknownst to the players it was actually a post apocalyptic setting, set thousands of years after war had blasted humanity back to the stone age. At one point the players encountered an NPC who had found one of the few remaining guns in the world, scavenged from the ruins of an old military bunker that was now a dungeon. Upon seeing it, the player's decided I was actually screwing them over and promising a fantasy game when it was actually a modern setting and promptly decided to quit the game, all because they saw a single thousand year old gun that was in such poor condition it followed the standard arquebus rules in the DMG.

Another time I had a campaign where the BBEG had already attained godhood. The player's long term goal was to find a way to strip him of divinity and eventually get strong enough to stop him. In the first mission I had the typical "this guy is evil and destroys your home town so you vow to find a way to stop him" quest starter. One of the player's decided to just attack him then and there, and when I informed the player that as a god he had enough DR/Epic to simply ignore his attacks the player quit the campaign and stormed out because I was sending unbeatable challenges their way.

In both cases I could have handled the setup better I admit, but they were one time instances with the player's jumping to conclusions that resulted in the ruination of what could have been a great campaign.

[Socratov]

I would never vote to end a campaign on the spot because of on instance, especially when they don't have the whole story. For all they know it could be an illusion, or a dream, or a test, or a stupid cut scene plot point where the real BBEG will come in and destroy it at the last second.

If the campaign is perpetually "not fun" then sure, end it. But just because you feel a challenge is in fair you shouldn't quit, you should embrace it. React in character, role-play the experience of confusion and despair brought on by a seemingly impossible opponent. The DM is not "cheating" or even breaking the DMG guidelines by having encounters that can't be solved by combat, and the players should try and make the best of it. IF it happens repeatedly and even with trying to make the best of it, it is still not fun, THEN you talk to the DM about stepping down.

Two gaming stories to illustrate my point if I may.

I once had a campaign that was set in a primitive barbaric world. Unbeknownst to the players it was actually a post apocalyptic setting, set thousands of years after war had blasted humanity back to the stone age. At one point the players encountered an NPC who had found one of the few remaining guns in the world, scavenged from the ruins of an old military bunker that was now a dungeon. Upon seeing it, the player's decided I was actually screwing them over and promising a fantasy game when it was actually a modern setting and promptly decided to quit the game, all because they saw a single thousand year old gun that was in such poor condition it followed the standard arquebus rules in the DMG.

Another time I had a campaign where the BBEG had already attained godhood. The player's long term goal was to find a way to strip him of divinity and eventually get strong enough to stop him. In the first mission I had the typical "this guy is evil and destroys your home town so you vow to find a way to stop him" quest starter. One of the player's decided to just attack him then and there, and when I informed the player that as a god he had enough DR/Epic to simply ignore his attacks the player quit the campaign and stormed out because I was sending unbeatable challenges their way.

In both cases I could have handled the setup better I admit, but they were one time instances with the player's jumping to conclusions that resulted in the ruination of what could have been a great campaign.

ok, just to throw my 2 cp in, in teh first eample your players are a bit too concervative, I dont know if you told them what you told us (the whole blast back to stone age thing) but if thsi was their reaction, then I think that was a really hasty move of your players. In the second eample, the player in question is just a fool. Everybody should at least try to listen, and understand that you won't just send in an epic bbeg at low level characters. Besides, DnD is a role playing game, not a hack and slash bloodfest. sure youa re allowed to take the attacks and try and cleave your way through a campaign, but imho a roleplaying game is about interacting with a setting/world. IRL you wouldnt shoot first ans ask questions later, if it worked like that for all humanity (some people still do that, but not for long usually) we humans wouldn't even exist anymore...

On topic: you should really try the paradox thing, another nifty one is while he sais he's perfect, he still relies on imperfect things to eecute his duty, he uses machines, and the very world itself, (which is not perfect). You could also try asking what perfection is and have him enter a loop in his eplanationif he is stuck in a loop, he will not be able to attack because his brain(?) is obviously busy being stuck.

(and yes, tell us how it ends)

[only1doug]

As for an exact quote? Just so you know, the golem calls himself "Alpha".

I said, "Alpha, you were created to destroy the illithids and defend these people. You should be protecting them, not exterminating them."

Alpha responded, "They are weak, so they must die. They are imperfect, so they must be exterminated."


A) Yes, he knows the only solution. I tried to tell the DM that I as a player cannot conceive of the correct solution, but maybe my character with an intelligence of 24 can. I asked if he could give me a clue as to what we need to do. His answer, "It's something you've already done or spoke about doing but you did it wrong." On the first round of combat I readied an action to cast Dispel Magic to counter the bosses Dispel Magic.


How does Your GM interpret the interaction of Psionics and immunity to magic? Is it possible a illithid has somehow influenced the Golem. If so then a simple solution presents itself: Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm).

Otherwise follow the advice of other posters and check if its immuities have been reversed (Fire=Owww) or if you can convince it that it is imperfect too as perfection is impossible for anything but a god.
Expanding that, ask it if Gods are perfect and if so how could they have accidently created imperfect creatures and why it seeks to question the judgement of a god.

[Kansaschaser]

Fact: You made your knowledge checks and learned in previous encounters that fire heals it and that electricity slows it.

Fact: When you used electricity on it, it sped up.

Theory: It's elemental immunities got flipped somehow, possibly during whatever transformation gave it the Illithid features.

Ergo, electricity, which formerly slowed it down, now speeds it up… which might mean that fire, instead of healing it, now does massive damage. This may be what your DM was hinting at when he said it's something you tried but did wrong: you tried using it's weakness, only to find that it's no longer it's weakness.

From what you've said, it doesn't sound like you've done a lot of damage to it, so it's not like you'll loose too much work risking it heal with a fire spell.

True, this doesn't make much sense from a core rules standpoint, but there may be something from a splat-book (or, of course, completely houseruled) that allowed for something like this to occur.

I still suggest that you speak your peace to the DM first. This kind of thing is not conductive to a good RPG environment, and should be kept to a minimum. Best of luck!

I don't think the fire and electricity have been reversed. I think the boss just activated a psionic power that gave him electricity resistance.

Our fighter has been able to hit the boss twice in 7 rounds. That was because he rolled a natural 20. Our blaster/healer shot several spells at the boss. It absorbed any electricity damage. The only damaging spell that hit so far was Orb of Force. We have two strikers and one of them has hit once in 7 rounds.


This thing has a challenge rating of "you can't beat it". Seriously, it can fly, had a free action breath weapon, is immune to everything, and can hit everything.

If one of your party members can summon a rust monster, have them summon a rust monster. If he's immune to that too, take a vote among the players of whether the game should just end right then and there.

Conjuration (calling), summoning, teleportation, and gate spells don't work. There is a "Dimensional Lock" covering the entire planet.


How does Your GM interpret the interaction of Psionics and immunity to magic? Is it possible a illithid has somehow influenced the Golem. If so then a simple solution presents itself: Protection from Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm).

Otherwise follow the advice of other posters and check if its immuities have been reversed (Fire=Owww) or if you can convince it that it is imperfect too as perfection is impossible for anything but a god.
Expanding that, ask it if Gods are perfect and if so how could they have accidently created imperfect creatures and why it seeks to question the judgement of a god.

We think the GM has fudged the rules sort of and given the golem the illithid heritage feats. Or, it's using a psionic power similar to the Flaying Tendrils spell from the Complete Mage. Either way, the Dwarf Fighter can't break the grapple.

[Unseenmal]

I tried to read through this entire chain and I don't think anyone mentioned this...but why not cast your dispel magic on the 4 invisible things in the corners instead of trying to destroy them. I know you did destroy 1 but you said no real change occurred. Maybe the power from it transferred to the other 3 so instead of destroying them and having that happen again....dispel them. It's just about the only option I can think of that hasn't been said so far. Since your DM told you you tried it already but did it "wrong".

Other than that, I'm at a loss as to what your DM is thinking on this one.

EDIT: and without proper clues as to what you need to do. He should not have thrown something like this at you. I don't think he should have thrown it at you in any case but at least with the proper clues on how to defeat it, you wouldn't feel so helpless in this challenge.

[Kansaschaser]

I tried to read through this entire chain and I don't think anyone mentioned this...but why not cast your dispel magic on the 4 invisible things in the corners instead of trying to destroy them. I know you did destroy 1 but you said no real change occurred. Maybe the power from it transferred to the other 3 so instead of destroying them and having that happen again....dispel them. It's just about the only option I can think of that hasn't been said so far. Since your DM told you you tried it already but did it "wrong".

Other than that, I'm at a loss as to what your DM is thinking on this one.

EDIT: and without proper clues as to what you need to do. He should not have thrown something like this at you. I don't think he should have thrown it at you in any case but at least with the proper clues on how to defeat it, you wouldn't feel so helpless in this challenge.

It would take me two rounds to do one dispel magic. At this point, it would be faster to destroy all four invisible objects. In fact, our strikers moved away from the boss to do just that. I started attacking the invisible orb in my corner the previous round. They should go down pretty fast. So if they do "transfer" energy, then after two rounds it wouldn't matter anymore.

This is what I'm going to try to do.

Round 1) Dispel my Enlarge Person so the Dwarf Fighter is medium sized again. If the Huge sized Golem can only extract the brain of someone within one size category, then that should save the Dwarf from having a total labotamy.

Round 2) Cast Heroics on the Dwarf, giving him Pierce Magical Protection. This will allow him to strike the boss and he will be able to ignore any spells that are giving him an armor bonus. This will also dispel any armor bonuses. If the fighter is dead by this time, I will have to take the next few rounds giving Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection to one of the strikers.

[Starbuck_II]

Round 1) Dispel my Enlarge Person so the Dwarf Fighter is medium sized again. If the Huge sized Golem can only extract the brain of someone within one size category, then that should save the Dwarf from having a total labotamy.

You mean dismiss not dispel.



Round 2) Cast Heroics on the Dwarf, giving him Pierce Magical Protection. This will allow him to strike the boss and he will be able to ignore any spells that are giving him an armor bonus. This will also dispel any armor bonuses. If the fighter is dead by this time, I will have to take the next few rounds giving Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection to one of the strikers.

This might work.

[Diarmuid]

I don't think the fire and electricity have been reversed. I think the boss just activated a psionic power that gave him electricity resistance.

/SNIP

While it's good that you "think" he just used a power, using Fire is exactly what sprang to my mind other than trying to use logic to get it to realise that it is imperfect and gettting it to destroy itself.

Get somebody to throw some kind of fire at it, it's certainly worth a shot.

[Kansaschaser]

You mean dismiss not dispel.

Yes, that's right.


While it's good that you "think" he just used a power, using Fire is exactly what sprang to my mind other than trying to use logic to get it to realise that it is imperfect and gettting it to destroy itself.

Get somebody to throw some kind of fire at it, it's certainly worth a shot.

IF I can convince someone to throw fire at the golem, it would have to be a very tiny bit of fire. I don't want this thing healing if at all possible. I highly doubt I'd be able to convince anyone to hurl fire at the target anyway.

[Diarmuid]

I sincerely doubt that dealing HP damage = or > that it's HP total is the way you're going to beat this encounter.

If you can't convince anyone to throw any kind of fire at it after it's already shown that it's resistances have changed...then you've got other problems.

Aside from the fire, the best idea that's been presented thus far is the "you're imperfect, kill yourself" bit. Obviously wordsmithed a bit more carefully then that =).

[Kansaschaser]

I sincerely doubt that dealing HP damage = or > that it's HP total is the way you're going to beat this encounter.

If you can't convince anyone to throw any kind of fire at it after it's already shown that it's resistances have changed...then you've got other problems.

Aside from the fire, the best idea that's been presented thus far is the "you're imperfect, kill yourself" bit. Obviously wordsmithed a bit more carefully then that =).

The reason I don't think I could convince anyone is because we all know it's an Iron Golem (several people made the knowledge check and we confirmed with the engineer). It gets healed with fire spells and slowed with electricity spells. I really think it just activated a spell that absorbs electricity damage. That's the simplest explination according to Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor). It has displayed psionic abilities, so it simpley used a power that shields/resists/absorbs electricity damage.

If we try the Pierce Magical Protection, the destruction of the invisible objects in the corners, and the death by paradox and they still didn't help, then I would be willing to hurl some fire the bosses way to see if that helped.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd say the Occam's Razor answer is that your DM decided 'LOL no puzzle boss is immune to everything except its secret weakness', rather than anything based on the rules.

[Diarmuid]

So it's an Iron Golem, but one that has newly found Illithid tentacles and is no longer hindered by lightning, but is actually sped up by it, not simply absorbed, but exactly the opposite effect.

It just doesnt seem like that huge a logic jump to think that it's only other specific elemental resistance might also have been swapped out.

If you said it was just unaffected by the lightning, then I would agree with you that it had some way to avoid the effects...but the complete 180 on the effects of the lightning sticks out to me.

Now, that being said I didnt say throw a Meteor swarm at the thing. But a little low lvl orb, or whacking it with a Flaming weapon should give you enough information to see if the fire healed it or hurt it.

[Kansaschaser]

I'd say the Occam's Razor answer is that your DM decided 'LOL no puzzle boss is immune to everything except its secret weakness', rather than anything based on the rules.

:smallsigh: You may be right about that. I'll find out more when we have our little talk. I'm getting a lot of good "ammo" for a debate from these forums.


So it's an Iron Golem, but one that has newly found Illithid tentacles and is no longer hindered by lightning, but is actually sped up by it, not simply absorbed, but exactly the opposite effect.

It just doesnt seem like that huge a logic jump to think that it's only other specific elemental resistance might also have been swapped out.

If you said it was just unaffected by the lightning, then I would agree with you that it had some way to avoid the effects...but the complete 180 on the effects of the lightning sticks out to me.

Now, that being said I didnt say throw a Meteor swarm at the thing. But a little low lvl orb, or whacking it with a Flaming weapon should give you enough information to see if the fire healed it or hurt it.

Well, the DM didn't say the golem was "hasted" or anything. He described it like this... (note that I'm only quoting what I remember, it may not be exact)

"As you hurl the Orb of Electricity at Alpha, the spheres attached to his chest absorb and redirect the electricity throughout his body. The electricity seems to have energized him."

According to that description, I was thinking of Energetic Healing. It gives you immunity to a specific type of elemental damage and heals you based on the ammount of damage that element would have done.

The boss also seemed to get faster after that. It could be that he activated a magic item or power that gave him haste at the same time.

[Diarmuid]

OK, it sounded like the the electricity specifically made him faster from your previous description.

[Kansaschaser]

OK, it sounded like the the electricity specifically made him faster from your previous description.

We wern't sure what it did. He didn't have any damage when the orb or electricity was hurled at him since that was the first round of combat.

All we knew was that he got a lot harder to hit when we threw the orb of electricity at him. We were just making assumptions.

[RedWarrior0]

If it's at all possible to move the invisible objects, dump them in the disintegration field rather than killing them. Lot faster that way.

[Kansaschaser]

If it's at all possible to move the invisible objects, dump them in the disintegration field rather than killing them. Lot faster that way.

Yeah, we thought of that. The "objects" seem to be hovering and we can't seem to move them with any ease. My character only has a strength of 8 and the other character that attacked the first one had a strength of 12. We just decided to destroy them.

In previous encounters with these golems, we found that they could erect forcefields, holograms, and fields of energy with various effects with these invisible devices. Normally when we would destroy one of them, the fields would collapse. We didn't have to destroy them all. We're hoping that this boss is getting buffs from the objects and their destruction will make him easer to handle.

[Sorcerer Blob]

Hey man, any word on.. well... everything yet? When do y'all play next (if you have not already?)

[Kansaschaser]

Hey man, any word on.. well... everything yet? When do y'all play next (if you have not already?)

We play on Sundays. I promise I will give you guys and update. It will probably be late on Sunday or early on Monday when I find out.

[Kansaschaser]

HERE IS THE SOLUTION!

Destroy the invisible floating orbs. :smallmad: That was it. I still haven't convinced the DM to post his boss on here. I'll see if I can get more information on his encounter.

[ragingrage]

HERE IS THE SOLUTION!

Destroy the invisible floating orbs. :smallmad: That was it. I still haven't convinced the DM to post his boss on here. I'll see if I can get more information on his encounter.

So yeah, it was a "guess what the DM was thinking game"
The Fact you now know the solution doesn't make that fact any better. Did you talk to him about why it wasn't fun?

[Kansaschaser]

So yeah, it was a "guess what the DM was thinking game"
The Fact you now know the solution doesn't make that fact any better. Did you talk to him about why it wasn't fun?

Yes. He thought it was pretty obvious what we should do. All of us told him that we wouldn't have been able to figure that out. There were not enough clues at to what we were supposed to do.

Something like, "Once you destroy the first orb, you see Alpha weaken" or "After the first orb is destroyed, Alpha cries out in shock". These kind of tips would have been nice.

We told him that he only gave us out of game tips. As the DM he told us (the players) that it's possible to defeat Alpha. In character, he didn't give our characters any clues. We tried to let him know the difference.

And we did loose one player permanently. We were hoping that we could convince him to return. It was not successful.

[The Glyphstone]

Hopefully he learns from the experience, then.

[Sorcerer Blob]

Glad to hear it was finally resolved. That said, that was a total BS solution! Especially with a lack of clues. Don't get me wrong, tough/impossible battles with a solution that has good hints for players both ooc and ic are fantastic and are fun. Without good clues.... Different story.

Sorry to hear about the permanent loss of the player. What was their reasoning? Just fed up with the BS battle? The DM?

Now, even with all of the complaints and the like, did your DM learn from this? Or was it more of a "come on, you should have gotten this!" kind of response?

[opticalshadow]

And we did loose one player permanently. We were hoping that we could convince him to return. It was not successful.

if he left because of this encounter, i dont blame him at all, this whole ordeal was a poorly constructed encounter and is the sole problem from the dm.

very rarely are only one solution problems any fun, esp concidering the various way you can actually do things, but when the solution doesnt even offer non meta clues about what you might have to do, its just a total dm failure.

im sorry you guys had to lose a player, but i do hope it opens your dm's eyes, try to convince him to come on here, im sure we could help him prevent future mistakes like this, while still offering a way for him to do what he wants. its all about comprimise. sometimes you toss things to the party because they can topple it easy, sometimes you give them bolders and leaves to move it with, but the trick is comprimising it, and doing so without the players knowing.

some advice you can give him, tell him to weigh the parties in game, and out of game play style and actions carefully, see how you guys approch things, see what methods you use, hwo crafty you are, or strightforward. it sounds liek you guys played a little while now, if he did this, it might have helped him create the encounter more on your level of play. some parties listen and check for traps at every door, some kick doors in, make sure you dont throw to many left field balls to a party that are lethal.

[Kansaschaser]

Glad to hear it was finally resolved. That said, that was a total BS solution! Especially with a lack of clues. Don't get me wrong, tough/impossible battles with a solution that has good hints for players both ooc and ic are fantastic and are fun. Without good clues.... Different story.

Sorry to hear about the permanent loss of the player. What was their reasoning? Just fed up with the BS battle? The DM?

Now, even with all of the complaints and the like, did your DM learn from this? Or was it more of a "come on, you should have gotten this!" kind of response?

The player was arguing with other players. One of the players likes to play online games while playing D&D. The player that left was yelling at the other players because they were not using their time to try to think of a solution. The player that left also was yelling at the DM for wasting so much time on countering all of our abilities.

I basically saw Alpha as the monster that killed Superman. Each time we encountered Alpha, he built up a defense against any tactic we used. So when we encountered him the last time, he was basically invisible until we did the one thing that the DM "thinking of".

I hope the DM learned from this.

[Skaven]

HERE IS THE SOLUTION!

Destroy the invisible floating orbs. :smallmad:

That's... wow. I'm speechless.

Hopefully it'll be a learning experience for everyone. Sorry to hear about the loss of player.. give him/her a few weeks to cool off and re-invite them.

[The Glyphstone]

Do you have an escape plan if the DM didn't learn, and instead decides to blame you guys for not being smart enough to figure out his obviously simple and easy-to-discover strategy?

[Kansaschaser]

Do you have an escape plan if the DM didn't learn, and instead decides to blame you guys for not being smart enough to figure out his obviously simple and easy-to-discover strategy?

Nope. Our escape plan would have been to Slow the boss with an electricity attack and then cast Haste on the party. Then we could run our butts off. That was thwarted when the boss suddenly became immune to electricity spells. Since there was no teleportation and the boss had a much higher movement than us, we were screwed if we even tried to run. :smallyuk:

Maybe the boss wouldn't have left the room with the orbs and he would have just munched on the Fighter's brain.

[Sorcerer Blob]

The player was arguing with other players. One of the players likes to play online games while playing D&D. The player that left was yelling at the other players because they were not using their time to try to think of a solution. The player that left also was yelling at the DM for wasting so much time on countering all of our abilities.

Ahhh, well, it sounds for the best for both the player and the group that they left. Though, I can totally see where he was coming from with the other player playing online games whilst at the session. That's a huge pet peeve of mine (we have since instituted a no phone/computer rule because of this.) If you're there to play a game with friends, play a game with friends not on your phone/computer. I also don't blame him for leaving over the DM and combat, but hopefully your DM learned from it. It seems like he had a good idea, but the execution just wasn't there. I'd also suggest that you have your DM ask you and your group what type of game you want to play, because I kind of got the feeling that this wasn't y'all's type of game.

I think it's fair to say that we all have been a bad DM at one time or the other. I know how rail-roady I was the first few times I tried to DM. Man, I was horrible! But, the internet and forums is great for learning tips and tricks (and screwing up is a great lesson too!) I'd suggest sending your DM to a forum, such as this one, just for tips and the like. The WotC (http://community.wizards.com/go/forum/viewcategory/75882) forums are not bad, but there is a lot of flaming that goes on there, too. A lot, it's kind of ridiculous. RPG.SE (RPG.Stackexchange.com) is also fantastic for more of a question and answer type site. If you can think it, it's probably been asked, and if not, then ask it. There are some good, friendly guys and gals there (much like here, actually!)

[Slipperychicken]

I recall a rule you might want to let your DM know. I think it's called the Rule Of Three: if you want your players to come to a conclusion, you need to provide at least three (or more) different chances for the players to come to that conclusion. Honestly, the orbs were my first (and yours as well, apparently) thoughts, but only because that's the kind of solution you see in so many video game battles, and we threw it out because there wasn't any IC evidence that their destruction could harm it.


Basically, like the others said, DM should've given you some kind of connection between the object's destruction and the boss' defeat, especially since it's the *only* way to do it (a hostage piping up about it, learning about the boss or similar opponents previously, the boss appearing visibly disturbed/worried/weakened at their destruction, him focusing on the PC who hit the boxes instead of killing the fighter... that could also have the side effect of believably avoiding player-kills). The way you describe it, there just was no in-character way for the PCs to connect the dots, or any dots to connect for that matter.

[MeeposFire]

I recall a rule you might want to let your DM know. I think it's called the Rule Of Three: if you want your players to come to a conclusion, you need to provide at least three (or more) different chances for the players to come to that conclusion. Honestly, the orbs were my first (and yours as well, apparently) thoughts, but only because that's the kind of solution you see in so many video game battles, and we threw it out because there wasn't any IC evidence that their destruction could harm it.


Basically, like the others said, DM should've given you some kind of connection between the object's destruction and the boss' defeat, especially since it's the *only* way to do it (a hostage piping up about it, learning about the boss or similar opponents previously, the boss appearing visibly disturbed/worried/weakened at their destruction, him focusing on the PC who hit the boxes instead of killing the fighter... that could also have the side effect of believably avoiding player-kills). The way you describe it, there just was no in-character way for the PCs to connect the dots, or any dots to connect for that matter.

As an example perhaps at the start of the fight, part way through, or on a crit on the main monster the DM could have the attack destroy one of the orbs and show it weakening the golem. This would provide you the info needed.

[Talakeal]

You know, the DM may well have given all the clues and the players just not noticed or remembered them, they are after all thick as mud.

I give hints all the time in my games that they players notice, sometimes even discuss, and then dismiss them and forget all about them for whatever reason.

[Kansaschaser]

As an example perhaps at the start of the fight, part way through, or on a crit on the main monster the DM could have the attack destroy one of the orbs and show it weakening the golem. This would provide you the info needed.


I recall a rule you might want to let your DM know. I think it's called the Rule Of Three: if you want your players to come to a conclusion, you need to provide at least three (or more) different chances for the players to come to that conclusion. Honestly, the orbs were my first (and yours as well, apparently) thoughts, but only because that's the kind of solution you see in so many video game battles, and we threw it out because there wasn't any IC evidence that their destruction could harm it.


Basically, like the others said, DM should've given you some kind of connection between the object's destruction and the boss' defeat, especially since it's the *only* way to do it (a hostage piping up about it, learning about the boss or similar opponents previously, the boss appearing visibly disturbed/worried/weakened at their destruction, him focusing on the PC who hit the boxes instead of killing the fighter... that could also have the side effect of believably avoiding player-kills). The way you describe it, there just was no in-character way for the PCs to connect the dots, or any dots to connect for that matter.


You know, the DM may well have given all the clues and the players just not noticed or remembered them, they are after all thick as mud.

I give hints all the time in my games that they players notice, sometimes even discuss, and then dismiss them and forget all about them for whatever reason.

Three of us were super focused on the fight. The one that was playing online games was only paying attention when it was his turn to "strike". We kept discussing all the possible things we could have done. Since there were never any "orbs" in any previous encounter with the boss, we dismissed it as a low possibility. We focused on other things and tactis first.

After everything we were doing was being countered, that's when one of the players decided to destroy the orb and see what happened. After the orb was destroyed, we so no visible change and no in game clues that it was the right course of action. The boss was still activating psionic powers, draining the tanks brain, and doing slam attacks against the striker. So, clues would have been helpful.

[The Glyphstone]

Nope. Our escape plan would have been to Slow the boss with an electricity attack and then cast Haste on the party. Then we could run our butts off. That was thwarted when the boss suddenly became immune to electricity spells. Since there was no teleportation and the boss had a much higher movement than us, we were screwed if we even tried to run. :smallyuk:

Maybe the boss wouldn't have left the room with the orbs and he would have just munched on the Fighter's brain.

I meant an escape plan from the game, actually. As in, telling the current GM he's not allowed to GM anymore, willingly or unwillingly, then talking amongst yourselves to find a replacement?

[Kansaschaser]

I meant an escape plan from the game, actually. As in, telling the current GM he's not allowed to GM anymore, willingly or unwillingly, then talking amongst yourselves to find a replacement?

Oh! No, we didn't. Most of us actually like this game, and we don't want to oust a new DM because he's made a few mistakes. I'm the only player in the game with any DM experience, so I'm trying to teach him how to DM without sounding like a "know-it-all".

[Ursus the Grim]

I read through every page and I'm glad there's a resolution. Normally I don't consider puzzle monsters to be a terrible idea, but he unfortunately failed in its execution. Making a monster tough to take down is one thing, but having him roflstomp your party is another.

My biggest issue is that he used misleading words. Aside from not following the rule of 3, when he gave you a clue, he said you did something wrong. You destroyed one of the four targets. That was not wrong, that was not enough.

Furthermore, by virtue of their invisibility, it sounds like there was no indication as to what the targets did. This would have been a great place to put clue 2, indicating that they bristle with a magical aura that seems to bleed towards the golem.

Finally, no indication was given that the destruction of the target had any effect on him. This has been mentioned already. However, any intelligent creature reliant on something would naturally move to defend it. Did he take any measures to keep you guys from destroying that target? I don't think so.

Not a terrible idea in principle, but as a new DM he botched the execution. My sympathy, but this is how people learn.

[Kansaschaser]

Finally, no indication was given that the destruction of the target had any effect on him. This has been mentioned already. However, any intelligent creature reliant on something would naturally move to defend it. Did he take any measures to keep you guys from destroying that target? I don't think so.

Not a terrible idea in principle, but as a new DM he botched the execution. My sympathy, but this is how people learn.

The golem/boss made no move to protect the orbs. There was no visible change after the first orb was destroyed. There was no "in-game" clue to indicate the orbs were the key.

When we played the next time, some of us tried for the rest of the orbs and some of us did other things. Once the second orb went down, we saw a change in the boss. The DM said he gave us a clue that the orbs were supposed to be destroyed when the first orb went down. All the players said that he didn't. He then told us that he forgot. :smallfurious:

[CTrees]

I'd definitely have chucked a PHB at that DM...

[MeeposFire]

Three of us were super focused on the fight. The one that was playing online games was only paying attention when it was his turn to "strike". We kept discussing all the possible things we could have done. Since there were never any "orbs" in any previous encounter with the boss, we dismissed it as a low possibility. We focused on other things and tactis first.

After everything we were doing was being countered, that's when one of the players decided to destroy the orb and see what happened. After the orb was destroyed, we so no visible change and no in game clues that it was the right course of action. The boss was still activating psionic powers, draining the tanks brain, and doing slam attacks against the striker. So, clues would have been helpful.

Your DMs big mistake was not roleplaying the destroyed orb. The golem should have been visually affected in some way by destroying that weak spot. That happens all the time in books, TV, movies, and video games. He should have made that clear.

[Kansaschaser]

I'd definitely have chucked a PHB at that DM...

I think he would need to have the DMG thrown at him too. He needs to brush up on the reason Challenge Ratings exist.


Your DMs big mistake was not roleplaying the destroyed orb. The golem should have been visually affected in some way by destroying that weak spot. That happens all the time in books, TV, movies, and video games. He should have made that clear.

Agreed. After we destroyed the first orb we didn't see or notice any changes. In fact, we had two strikers and the tank attack him right after that to see if it was easier to hit and the bosses AC hadn't changed.